Following swiftly on from yesterday's plea for help using microbore
tubing (for which, many thanks for the replies!) I've been to buy
various fittings from the plumber's merchants and foud that the range of
these is graetly restricted in Yorkshire fittings compared with end-feed
items (presumably because that's what the pros normally use). So I've
decided it's time I bit the bullet and started using end-feed fittings,
Should save myself a few bob too!

I'm reasonably experienced with Yorkshire fittings and have no problems
using them. What I'm not clear about, in transferring my skills to
end-feed fittings is (I think) how you tell whether you've got solder
down the copper-copper interface, and enough of it to make a proper
joint? Easy enough with Yorkshires, when you see the silver ring appear...

Thanks as ever

David

Lobster wrote:
Following swiftly on from yesterday's plea for help using microbore
tubing (for which, many thanks for the replies!) I've been to buy
various fittings from the plumber's merchants and foud that the range
of these is graetly restricted in Yorkshire fittings compared with
end-feed items (presumably because that's what the pros normally
use). So I've decided it's time I bit the bullet and started using
end-feed fittings, Should save myself a few bob too!


Flux the joint as usual, apply heat to the whole joint, when the flux
bubbles apply solder to two or three places around the joint. Capillary
action will suck the solder in and when you see a whole ring of solder
you're done.

Lead-free solder doesn't flow as well as leaded.

Si

In article ,
Lobster wrote:
I'm reasonably experienced with Yorkshire fittings and have no problems
using them. What I'm not clear about, in transferring my skills to
end-feed fittings is (I think) how you tell whether you've got solder
down the copper-copper interface, and enough of it to make a proper
joint? Easy enough with Yorkshires, when you see the silver ring
appear...

Exactly the same with end feed. Stop feeding solder when a ring appears.
If you can apply the solder to the 'back' so much the better.

--
*When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Lobster wrote:

using them. What I'm not clear about, in transferring my skills to
end-feed fittings is (I think) how you tell whether you've got solder
down the copper-copper interface, and enough of it to make a proper
joint? Easy enough with Yorkshires, when you see the silver ring appear...

If anything I find them quicker and easier than solder ring fittings
since they (having less metal) get to the right temperature slightly
faster.

Prep and flux as usual, apply heat to the joint and wait a few secs,
then offer up the solder to the joint and touch it on to see if it is
hot enough to flow. Once it is, the solder will flow easily. Feed in
about half an inch or so (assuming you are using typical plumbing
thickness wire). You will actually see the joint suck the solder in.
Once you have added solder, withdraw the heat, wait for a few secs and
then wipe of any excess with a damp cloth for a neat finish.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Lobster wrote:

using them. What I'm not clear about, in transferring my skills to
end-feed fittings is (I think) how you tell whether you've got solder
down the copper-copper interface, and enough of it to make a proper
joint? Easy enough with Yorkshires, when you see the silver ring
appear...


If anything I find them quicker and easier than solder ring fittings
since they (having less metal) get to the right temperature slightly
faster.

Prep and flux as usual, apply heat to the joint and wait a few secs,
then offer up the solder to the joint and touch it on to see if it is
hot enough to flow. Once it is, the solder will flow easily. Feed in
about half an inch or so (assuming you are using typical plumbing
thickness wire). You will actually see the joint suck the solder in.
Once you have added solder, withdraw the heat, wait for a few secs and
then wipe of any excess with a damp cloth for a neat finish.

Hmm. So far, I'm afraid all my prejudices have been confirmed... Having
armed myself with a length of 15mm tube and a few straight end-feed
couplings, I've been having a play today. One time, it did seem to work
OK, and I achieved the 'silver ring'; however, other times the solder
just ran off the tube like water off a duck's back and landed on the
floor, nothing being sucked up into the joint.

I'm guessing the heat wrong? Any more tips, anyone, maybe for getting
the right temperature, if that's what it is?!

Thanks
David

Lobster wrote:

Prep and flux as usual, apply heat to the joint and wait a few secs,
then offer up the solder to the joint and touch it on to see if it is
hot enough to flow. Once it is, the solder will flow easily. Feed in
about half an inch or so (assuming you are using typical plumbing
thickness wire). You will actually see the joint suck the solder in.
Once you have added solder, withdraw the heat, wait for a few secs and
then wipe of any excess with a damp cloth for a neat finish.


Hmm. So far, I'm afraid all my prejudices have been confirmed... Having
armed myself with a length of 15mm tube and a few straight end-feed
couplings, I've been having a play today. One time, it did seem to work
OK, and I achieved the 'silver ring'; however, other times the solder
just ran off the tube like water off a duck's back and landed on the
floor, nothing being sucked up into the joint.

It sounds either like the pipe was either not chemically clean, or the
pipe was not hot enough, and you were just melting the solder in the
heat of the blow lamp. This is why it is important to heat the
pipe/joint, and allow the heat of the pipe to melt the solder and not
the flame.

For soldering to work, the joint must be physically clean (wirewool,
wire pipe cleaning brush etc - i.e. nice bright metal), it must also be
chemicaly clean (no oxide coatings, grease or other contaminants). That
is the job of the flux. It will do two things usually - clean the metal
in the first place (assemble joint with flux and twist it a bit to
transfer it to all the contact surfaces), and keep it from oxidizing as
you heat it. I would suggest something like a tub of Fry Metals
"Powerflow" flux - this is slightly aggressive and will clean the metal
well on contact.

One other thing to avoid is overheating the metal and boiling off all
the flux. It should only take a few seconds of playing the flame over
the joint to get an end feed fitting hot enough. If it is glowing red or
giving a bright green flame you are overdoing it!




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Lobster wrote:

Prep and flux as usual, apply heat to the joint and wait a few secs,
then offer up the solder to the joint and touch it on to see if it is
hot enough to flow. Once it is, the solder will flow easily. Feed in
about half an inch or so (assuming you are using typical plumbing
thickness wire). You will actually see the joint suck the solder in.
Once you have added solder, withdraw the heat, wait for a few secs and
then wipe of any excess with a damp cloth for a neat finish.


Hmm. So far, I'm afraid all my prejudices have been confirmed... Having
armed myself with a length of 15mm tube and a few straight end-feed
couplings, I've been having a play today. One time, it did seem to work
OK, and I achieved the 'silver ring'; however, other times the solder
just ran off the tube like water off a duck's back and landed on the
floor, nothing being sucked up into the joint.

It sounds either like the pipe was either not chemically clean, or the
pipe was not hot enough, and you were just melting the solder in the
heat of the blow lamp. This is why it is important to heat the
pipe/joint, and allow the heat of the pipe to melt the solder and not
the flame.

For soldering to work, the joint must be physically clean (wirewool,
wire pipe cleaning brush etc - i.e. nice bright metal), it must also be
chemicaly clean (no oxide coatings, grease or other contaminants). That
is the job of the flux. It will do two things usually - clean the metal
in the first place (assemble joint with flux and twist it a bit to
transfer it to all the contact surfaces), and keep it from oxidizing as
you heat it. I would suggest something like a tub of Fry Metals
"Powerflow" flux - this is slightly aggressive and will clean the metal
well on contact.

One other thing to avoid is overheating the metal and boiling off all
the flux. It should only take a few seconds of playing the flame over
the joint to get an end feed fitting hot enough. If it is glowing red or
giving a bright green flame you are overdoing it!




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

============================
Just a minor point.

Clean and flux the pipe well beyond the ends of the fitting so that you can
see clean fluxed pipe projecting outside the fitting.

It would also be worth checking that you're using the correct flux to match
your solder. I believe that some newer lead-free solders and fluxes don't
mix well with the older types. Perhaps someone will confirm or advise on
this aspect.

Cic.

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
John Rumm wrote:
Lobster wrote:

using them. What I'm not clear about, in transferring my skills to
end-feed fittings is (I think) how you tell whether you've got solder
down the copper-copper interface, and enough of it to make a proper
joint? Easy enough with Yorkshires, when you see the silver ring
appear...


If anything I find them quicker and easier than solder ring fittings
since they (having less metal) get to the right temperature slightly
faster.

Prep and flux as usual, apply heat to the joint and wait a few secs, then
offer up the solder to the joint and touch it on to see if it is hot
enough to flow. Once it is, the solder will flow easily. Feed in about
half an inch or so (assuming you are using typical plumbing thickness
wire). You will actually see the joint suck the solder in. Once you have
added solder, withdraw the heat, wait for a few secs and then wipe of any
excess with a damp cloth for a neat finish.

Hmm. So far, I'm afraid all my prejudices have been confirmed... Having
armed myself with a length of 15mm tube and a few straight end-feed
couplings, I've been having a play today. One time, it did seem to work
OK, and I achieved the 'silver ring'; however, other times the solder just
ran off the tube like water off a duck's back and landed on the floor,
nothing being sucked up into the joint.

I'm guessing the heat wrong? Any more tips, anyone, maybe for getting the
right temperature, if that's what it is?!

Thanks
David


Are you cleaning the outside of the tube and the inside of the fitting with
steel wool and then spinning it a half turn or so onto the cleaned and
fluxed tube? If the solder doesn't flow then it's usually due to inadequate
cleaning and fluxing.

Peter

John Rumm wrote:

Once it is, the solder will flow easily. Feed in
about half an inch or so (assuming you are using typical plumbing
thickness wire).

A tip passed down from my father is to bend the solder at the half-inch
point so then it's easy to see when you've applied the approximate
intended amount.

Mathew

Cicero wrote:

It would also be worth checking that you're using the correct flux to match
your solder. I believe that some newer lead-free solders and fluxes don't
mix well with the older types. Perhaps someone will confirm or advise on
this aspect.

The newer lead free solders don't flow quite as well (although IME there
is not much in it), and they don't look as bright and shiny once cooled.

The powerflow flux I suggested works well for both:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...16396&ts=44007



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article .com,
Mathew Newton wrote:
Once it is, the solder will flow easily. Feed in
about half an inch or so (assuming you are using typical plumbing
thickness wire).

A tip passed down from my father is to bend the solder at the half-inch
point so then it's easy to see when you've applied the approximate
intended amount.

That's a good tip.

--
*Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Lobster wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
Lobster wrote:

using them. What I'm not clear about, in transferring my skills to
end-feed fittings is (I think) how you tell whether you've got solder
down the copper-copper interface, and enough of it to make a proper
joint? Easy enough with Yorkshires, when you see the silver ring
appear...


If anything I find them quicker and easier than solder ring fittings
since they (having less metal) get to the right temperature slightly
faster.

Prep and flux as usual, apply heat to the joint and wait a few secs,
then offer up the solder to the joint and touch it on to see if it is
hot enough to flow. Once it is, the solder will flow easily. Feed in
about half an inch or so (assuming you are using typical plumbing
thickness wire). You will actually see the joint suck the solder in.
Once you have added solder, withdraw the heat, wait for a few secs and
then wipe of any excess with a damp cloth for a neat finish.

Hmm. So far, I'm afraid all my prejudices have been confirmed... Having
armed myself with a length of 15mm tube and a few straight end-feed
couplings, I've been having a play today. One time, it did seem to work
OK, and I achieved the 'silver ring'; however, other times the solder
just ran off the tube like water off a duck's back and landed on the
floor, nothing being sucked up into the joint.

I'm guessing the heat wrong? Any more tips, anyone, maybe for getting
the right temperature, if that's what it is?!

Thanks
David

it could be that you are overheating the join and burning off the flux
Try another test but don't let the flame come into contact with the
join as in this picture
http://www.cda.org.uk/Megab2/build/pub125/sec5.htm
figure 12
This takes longer to get the pipe up to the correct temp and makes it
difficult to burn the flux
Keep moving the flame away from the pipe and testing to see if the
solder runs when touched on the fitting

John Rumm wrote:
Lobster wrote:
Prep and flux as usual, apply heat to the joint and wait a few secs,
then offer up the solder to the joint and touch it on to see if it is
hot enough to flow. Once it is, the solder will flow easily. Feed in
about half an inch or so (assuming you are using typical plumbing
thickness wire). You will actually see the joint suck the solder in.
Once you have added solder, withdraw the heat, wait for a few secs
and then wipe of any excess with a damp cloth for a neat finish.

Wipe off excess with a dry cloth. Having a damp cloth just makes
it more likely that you'll get a burn (steam), and shock cooling
is very bad for soldered joints.

Make sure your gas torch can heat the whole joint, one that's too
small is difficult to use.


Hmm. So far, I'm afraid all my prejudices have been confirmed...
Having armed myself with a length of 15mm tube and a few straight
end-feed couplings, I've been having a play today. One time, it did
seem to work OK, and I achieved the 'silver ring'; however, other
times the solder just ran off the tube like water off a duck's back
and landed on the floor, nothing being sucked up into the joint.

It sounds either like the pipe was either not chemically clean, or the
pipe was not hot enough, and you were just melting the solder in the
heat of the blow lamp.

The latter sounds most likely. The metal could be over- or under hot.


This is why it is important to heat the
pipe/joint, and allow the heat of the pipe to melt the solder and not
the flame.

For soldering to work, the joint must be physically clean (wirewool,
wire pipe cleaning brush etc - i.e. nice bright metal), it must also be
chemicaly clean (no oxide coatings, grease or other contaminants). That
is the job of the flux. It will do two things usually - clean the metal
in the first place (assemble joint with flux and twist it a bit to
transfer it to all the contact surfaces), and keep it from oxidizing as
you heat it. I would suggest something like a tub of Fry Metals
"Powerflow" flux - this is slightly aggressive and will clean the metal
well on contact.

Steel wool is good for cleaning tube. Wipe some flux around
only where you want the solder to go, a fingertip is good,
or a small brush. Unlike Mr. Rumm, I would absolutely avoid
Fry's "Powerflow" and go for a better flux such as Laco:

http://www.tooled-up.com/static/Lac1.asp


One other thing to avoid is overheating the metal and boiling off all
the flux. It should only take a few seconds of playing the flame over
the joint to get an end feed fitting hot enough. If it is glowing red or
giving a bright green flame you are overdoing it!


Heat the tube first/slightly more, it's easy to overheat a
little coupling or whatever, the tube takes a bit more. It's
surprising how little heat you need.

In article ,
Chris Bacon wrote:
Steel wool is good for cleaning tube. Wipe some flux around
only where you want the solder to go, a fingertip is good,
or a small brush. Unlike Mr. Rumm, I would absolutely avoid
Fry's "Powerflow" and go for a better flux such as Laco:

Certainly if you use a finger to apply it. ;-)

--
*I finally got my head together, now my body is falling apart.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
Steel wool is good for cleaning tube. Wipe some flux around
only where you want the solder to go, a fingertip is good,
or a small brush. Unlike Mr. Rumm, I would absolutely avoid
Fry's "Powerflow" and go for a better flux such as Laco:

Certainly if you use a finger to apply it. ;-)

I've found "Powerflow" less "active" than Laco, but neither
are particularly bad for skin (at normal temperatures!!!).

In article ,
Chris Bacon wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
Steel wool is good for cleaning tube. Wipe some flux around
only where you want the solder to go, a fingertip is good,
or a small brush. Unlike Mr. Rumm, I would absolutely avoid
Fry's "Powerflow" and go for a better flux such as Laco:

Certainly if you use a finger to apply it. ;-)

I've found "Powerflow" less "active" than Laco, but neither
are particularly bad for skin (at normal temperatures!!!).

Right. I've not used either but prefer active types. And they certainly
don't do your skin any good.

--
*Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

George Tingsley wrote:
Lobster wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Lobster wrote:


using them. What I'm not clear about, in transferring my
skills to end-feed fittings is (I think) how you tell whether
you've got solder down the copper-copper interface, and enough
of it to make a proper joint? Easy enough with Yorkshires,
when you see the silver ring appear...


If anything I find them quicker and easier than solder ring
fittings since they (having less metal) get to the right
temperature slightly faster.

Prep and flux as usual, apply heat to the joint and wait a few
secs, then offer up the solder to the joint and touch it on to
see if it is hot enough to flow. Once it is, the solder will flow
easily. Feed in about half an inch or so (assuming you are using
typical plumbing thickness wire). You will actually see the joint
suck the solder in. Once you have added solder, withdraw the
heat, wait for a few secs and then wipe of any excess with a damp
cloth for a neat finish.

Hmm. So far, I'm afraid all my prejudices have been confirmed...
Having armed myself with a length of 15mm tube and a few straight
end-feed couplings, I've been having a play today. One time, it
did seem to work OK, and I achieved the 'silver ring'; however,
other times the solder just ran off the tube like water off a
duck's back and landed on the floor, nothing being sucked up into
the joint.

I'm guessing the heat wrong? Any more tips, anyone, maybe for
getting the right temperature, if that's what it is?!

it could be that you are overheating the join and burning off the
flux Try another test but don't let the flame come into contact with
the join as in this picture
http://www.cda.org.uk/Megab2/build/pub125/sec5.htm figure 12 This
takes longer to get the pipe up to the correct temp and makes it
difficult to burn the flux Keep moving the flame away from the pipe
and testing to see if the solder runs when touched on the fitting

Well thanks again everyone! Still not able to do it reproducibly
though. I've tried all the tips mentioned in this thread (most of which
I was already doing TBH).

People keep talking about heating for a few secs; well it's taking me
more like 1-1.5 minutes to get the joint up to enough temperature to
melt the solder. And all that time the flux is boiling/burning off I
think. But heated for less than that time, I push the solder against
the pipe and it *just* melts, forming a blob which immediately
solidifies without running up the fitting, because the pipework/fitting
isn't hot enough. I'm using an ordinary butane cartridge blowlamp, with
a brass burner approx 15mm diameter and which seems to give out a good
blast of flame, and I'm using the hot part of the flame, not the blue
unburnt area. Does this make any sense?

David

Lobster wrote:

People keep talking about heating for a few secs; well it's taking me
more like 1-1.5 minutes to get the joint up to enough temperature to
melt the solder. And all that time the flux is boiling/burning off I

That rings alarm bells...

For a straight end feed fitting on 15mm pipe you should be able to
complete the whole joint in 30 secs - probably quicker.

think. But heated for less than that time, I push the solder against
the pipe and it *just* melts, forming a blob which immediately

I find if you keep playing the heat on the pipe, there is a maximum
delay of about 5 secs from the point at which the solder will just begin
to melt to when it will flow freely.

(unlike electronics solder, plumbing solder is deliberately formulated
to be non eutectic - so the transition from just molten to completely
liquid is spread over a wide ish temperature range - hence the need to
get the pipe hotter than just the threshold temperature at which the
solder begins to melt)

solidifies without running up the fitting, because the pipework/fitting
isn't hot enough. I'm using an ordinary butane cartridge blowlamp, with
a brass burner approx 15mm diameter and which seems to give out a good
blast of flame, and I'm using the hot part of the flame, not the blue
unburnt area. Does this make any sense?

Try another blowlamp[1]! It may be that yours is not focussed enough to
heat the metal quickly. Your description of the flux boiling off does
sound like it is the cause of your problems. Possibly try another flux
or solder. Those are the only things I can think of since given the
procedure you are carrying out, you ought to be making perfect joints
every time without any difficulty! (Not wishing to demoralise you, but
end feed fittings really are simple to use ;-)

[1]If you want a cheap one to try, a bog standard Wicks butane/propane
mix one should do the job well enough...



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Lobster wrote:
People keep talking about heating for a few secs; well it's taking me
more like 1-1.5 minutes to get the joint up to enough temperature to
melt the solder. And all that time the flux is boiling/burning off I
think. But heated for less than that time, I push the solder against
the pipe and it *just* melts, forming a blob which immediately
solidifies without running up the fitting, because the pipework/fitting
isn't hot enough. I'm using an ordinary butane cartridge blowlamp, with
a brass burner approx 15mm diameter and which seems to give out a good
blast of flame, and I'm using the hot part of the flame, not the blue
unburnt area. Does this make any sense?

There's something wrong with your blow-lamp, unless you're just
wafting the flame around in the general vicinity of the work.
Angle the blowlamp along the pipe a bit so that the flame heats
more of it, don't go at 90 degrees to the pipe ("you're probably
already doing this" ). You should see the flux start to bubble
almost immediately, then see the cleaned copper, then the solder
should flow. Are you practicing on microbore, 15mm, or ?

John Rumm wrote:
Lobster wrote:

People keep talking about heating for a few secs; well it's taking me
more like 1-1.5 minutes to get the joint up to enough temperature to
melt the solder. And all that time the flux is boiling/burning off I

That rings alarm bells...

mm, thought as much...

For a straight end feed fitting on 15mm pipe you should be able to
complete the whole joint in 30 secs - probably quicker.

think. But heated for less than that time, I push the solder against
the pipe and it *just* melts, forming a blob which immediately

I find if you keep playing the heat on the pipe, there is a maximum
delay of about 5 secs from the point at which the solder will just begin
to melt to when it will flow freely.

(unlike electronics solder, plumbing solder is deliberately formulated
to be non eutectic - so the transition from just molten to completely
liquid is spread over a wide ish temperature range - hence the need to
get the pipe hotter than just the threshold temperature at which the
solder begins to melt)

solidifies without running up the fitting, because the pipework/fitting
isn't hot enough. I'm using an ordinary butane cartridge blowlamp, with
a brass burner approx 15mm diameter and which seems to give out a good
blast of flame, and I'm using the hot part of the flame, not the blue
unburnt area. Does this make any sense?

Try another blowlamp[1]! It may be that yours is not focussed enough to
heat the metal quickly. Your description of the flux boiling off does
sound like it is the cause of your problems. Possibly try another flux
or solder. Those are the only things I can think of since given the
procedure you are carrying out, you ought to be making perfect joints
every time without any difficulty! (Not wishing to demoralise you, but
end feed fittings really are simple to use ;-)

Well, it does seem odd. I'm not normally totally cack-handed with
tasks like this! Just before I buy my new blowlamp - how far either
side of the joint should I be heating? I'm playing the flame over an
area about 1.5" either side of the fitting: could that be too much?

Thanks for the continued advice! TBH I'd have probably given up by now
but for the fact that I can't buy the fittings I need in Yorkshire
style (various 10mm - 15mm stuff).

David

Chris Bacon wrote:
Lobster wrote:
People keep talking about heating for a few secs; well it's taking me
more like 1-1.5 minutes to get the joint up to enough temperature to
melt the solder. And all that time the flux is boiling/burning off I
think. But heated for less than that time, I push the solder against
the pipe and it *just* melts, forming a blob which immediately
solidifies without running up the fitting, because the pipework/fitting
isn't hot enough. I'm using an ordinary butane cartridge blowlamp, with
a brass burner approx 15mm diameter and which seems to give out a good
blast of flame, and I'm using the hot part of the flame, not the blue
unburnt area. Does this make any sense?

There's something wrong with your blow-lamp, unless you're just
wafting the flame around in the general vicinity of the work.
Angle the blowlamp along the pipe a bit so that the flame heats
more of it, don't go at 90 degrees to the pipe ("you're probably
already doing this" ).

See reply to John Rumm!

You should see the flux
start to bubble
almost immediately, then see the cleaned copper, then the solder
should flow. Are you practicing on microbore, 15mm, or ?

At the moment, 15mm with straight connectors.

Thanks
David

In article ,
Lobster wrote:
People keep talking about heating for a few secs; well it's taking me
more like 1-1.5 minutes to get the joint up to enough temperature to
melt the solder. And all that time the flux is boiling/burning off I
think. But heated for less than that time, I push the solder against
the pipe and it *just* melts, forming a blob which immediately
solidifies without running up the fitting,

Are you applying the solder to the same side as the flame? Because the
flame will melt the solder even if the fitting isn't hot enough. So the
solder should be applied somewhere out of the flame.

The flux will melt before the correct temperature is achieved, but by this
time will have done its work.

because the pipework/fitting
isn't hot enough. I'm using an ordinary butane cartridge blowlamp, with
a brass burner approx 15mm diameter and which seems to give out a good
blast of flame, and I'm using the hot part of the flame, not the blue
unburnt area. Does this make any sense?

You don't want the flame too close, so use the blue part. And move it
around to heat all the fitting evenly. A tip is the blue flame will change
to a greenish colour when the copper is up to heat.

IMHO, it's best to use an aggressive flux. Then wipe the pipes clean with
a damp cloth after they have cooled.

--
*Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Lobster wrote:
People keep talking about heating for a few secs; well it's taking me
more like 1-1.5 minutes to get the joint up to enough temperature to
melt the solder. And all that time the flux is boiling/burning off I
think. But heated for less than that time, I push the solder against
the pipe and it *just* melts, forming a blob which immediately
solidifies without running up the fitting,

Are you applying the solder to the same side as the flame? Because the
flame will melt the solder even if the fitting isn't hot enough. So the
solder should be applied somewhere out of the flame.

I'm withdrawing the flame just before applying the solder.

isn't hot enough. I'm using an ordinary butane cartridge blowlamp, with
a brass burner approx 15mm diameter and which seems to give out a good
blast of flame, and I'm using the hot part of the flame, not the blue
unburnt area. Does this make any sense?

You don't want the flame too close, so use the blue part. And move it
around to heat all the fitting evenly. A tip is the blue flame will change
to a greenish colour when the copper is up to heat.

Isn't the blue part of the flame unburnt gas though? I don't follow
that one, as my problem seems to me that for whatever reason I'm not
getting up to temperature quick enough!

David

Lobster wrote:
Isn't the blue part of the flame unburnt gas though? I don't follow
that one, as my problem seems to me that for whatever reason I'm not
getting up to temperature quick enough!

The blue is burning gas, just not as hot as the outside of
the cone (if evident). If the gas is not burning properly
you will get a yellow, perhaps evidently smoky, flame. You
said that the torch seems to "give a good blast" so I'm a
little confused as to why it's not heating the joint fast.

Chris Bacon wrote:

Lobster wrote:
Isn't the blue part of the flame unburnt gas though? I don't follow
that one, as my problem seems to me that for whatever reason I'm not
getting up to temperature quick enough!

The blue is burning gas, just not as hot as the outside of
the cone (if evident). If the gas is not burning properly
you will get a yellow, perhaps evidently smoky, flame. You
said that the torch seems to "give a good blast" so I'm a
little confused as to why it's not heating the joint fast.

You and me both! ;-)

David

In article .com,
Lobster wrote:
Isn't the blue part of the flame unburnt gas though?

No - it's simply not the hottest part. But still plenty hot for the job in
hand and not so localised as the very hot part which has a name I've
forgotten. ;-)

I don't follow that one, as my problem seems to me that for whatever
reason I'm not getting up to temperature quick enough!

The speed doesn't much matter.

--
*Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Lobster wrote:

Well, it does seem odd. I'm not normally totally cack-handed with
tasks like this! Just before I buy my new blowlamp - how far either
side of the joint should I be heating? I'm playing the flame over an
area about 1.5" either side of the fitting: could that be too much?

I usually only go about half the width of the flame - so that it is half
on the pipe and half on the fitting.

Thanks for the continued advice! TBH I'd have probably given up by now
but for the fact that I can't buy the fittings I need in Yorkshire
style (various 10mm - 15mm stuff).

If it is any encouragement, of the last few hundred joints I have
soldered, the only ones I ever had leak were a yorkshire fitting (due to
a pinhole flaw in the manufacture), and a very old heavy weight fitting
that firstly I could not be sure was totally dry, and secondly had so
much metal in it my (ailing) blowlamp could not heat it fast enough. All
the end feed stuff I have found to be 100% reliable.

I recently changed blowtorch because my old wickes one was developing a
small catalogue of problems. I got one of these cheap on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BERNZOMATIC-QU...c mdZViewItem

It has a propane canister and very focused flame which makes it easy to
get lots of heat exactly where you want it.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Lobster wrote:

I'm withdrawing the flame just before applying the solder.

I tend to focus 70% of the torch time on one connection first, then once
hot enough to flow, play it over the next socket on the fitting to
solder while feeding solder into the first. By the time the first is
soldered the next is then ready and so on.

Perhaps this is the time for us to make a quick video of one being done
so you can see what to expect?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

No - it's simply not the hottest part. But still plenty hot for the job in
hand and not so localised as the very hot part which has a name I've
forgotten. ;-)

The tip of the "inner cone"?

I don't follow that one, as my problem seems to me that for whatever
reason I'm not getting up to temperature quick enough!


The speed doesn't much matter.

It does if you take so long all the flux is gone, and the pipe has
started oxidizing in the air.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
No - it's simply not the hottest part. But still plenty hot for the
job in hand and not so localised as the very hot part which has a name
I've forgotten. ;-)

The tip of the "inner cone"?

Ah - right.

I don't follow that one, as my problem seems to me that for whatever
reason I'm not getting up to temperature quick enough!


The speed doesn't much matter.

It does if you take so long all the flux is gone, and the pipe has
started oxidizing in the air.

Doesn't much matter as not being critical to within a reasonable time?

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

John Rumm wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:




The speed doesn't much matter.

It does if you take so long all the flux is gone, and the pipe has
started oxidizing in the air.



Im even more convinced this is the crux of lobsters problem
1-1/2 minutes is far to long 15-20 seconds should be long enough even
with a small blowlamp on 15mm
as you have said a video would be a good idea

of course it could be the solder being used
I have never used lead free so don't know if this is more difficult
to use



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:55:59 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Lobster wrote:

I'm withdrawing the flame just before applying the solder.

I tend to focus 70% of the torch time on one connection first, then once
hot enough to flow, play it over the next socket on the fitting to
solder while feeding solder into the first. By the time the first is
soldered the next is then ready and so on.

Perhaps this is the time for us to make a quick video of one being done
so you can see what to expect?

There is a wee video on the bernzomatic download page but I'm not sure that
it'll be of much help

Stuart

Stuart wrote:
On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:55:59 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Perhaps this is the time for us to make a quick video of one being done
so you can see what to expect?

That would certainly be the business! (Actually, didn't someone suggest
a uk.d-i-y video collection a while ago?)

There is a wee video on the bernzomatic download page but I'm not sure that
it'll be of much help

Would that be at:
http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomat...dCentral.jhtml
I can't see any video there...?

David

On Wed, 17 May 2006 17:24:21 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

Stuart wrote:
On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:55:59 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Perhaps this is the time for us to make a quick video of one being done
so you can see what to expect?

That would certainly be the business! (Actually, didn't someone suggest
a uk.d-i-y video collection a while ago?)

There is a wee video on the bernzomatic download page but I'm not sure that
it'll be of much help

Would that be at:
http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomat...dCentral.jhtml
I can't see any video there...?

David


Its in the .co.uk site

http://www.bernzomatic.co.uk/downloa...c_Movie_EN.wmv

In article .com,
George Tingsley wrote:
Im even more convinced this is the crux of lobsters problem
1-1/2 minutes is far to long 15-20 seconds should be long enough even
with a small blowlamp on 15mm
as you have said a video would be a good idea

of course it could be the solder being used
I have never used lead free so don't know if this is more difficult
to use

With decent flux it's much the same - just melts at a slightly higher
temperature. Shouldn't cause problems if you're used to making end feed
joints.

--
*On the seventh day He brewed beer *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 17 May 2006 02:59:34 -0700, Lobster wrote:


Chris Bacon wrote:

Lobster wrote:
Isn't the blue part of the flame unburnt gas though? I don't follow
that one, as my problem seems to me that for whatever reason I'm not
getting up to temperature quick enough!

The blue is burning gas, just not as hot as the outside of
the cone (if evident). If the gas is not burning properly
you will get a yellow, perhaps evidently smoky, flame. You
said that the torch seems to "give a good blast" so I'm a
little confused as to why it's not heating the joint fast.

You and me both! ;-)

It strikes me that short of seeing a video of what you 're doing I can't
really say. But if the blow lamp is producing a 10-15mm diameter of blue
flame it must be heating the pipe well.

I'd say that you are, maybe, over-heating the fitting and the solder is
not taking and that you should apply the solder much earlier.

I try to heat the pipe from the 'back side' if possible and put the
solder in from the front. As soon as the front solder starts to melt (I'm
gently rubbing the end of the solder on the pipe to find out as I heat the
pipe) I remove the heat and start to run the solder in and around.
Sometimes a little more heat is needed.

HTH

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

On Wed, 17 May 2006 18:58:17 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article .com,
George Tingsley wrote:
Im even more convinced this is the crux of lobsters problem
1-1/2 minutes is far to long 15-20 seconds should be long enough even
with a small blowlamp on 15mm
as you have said a video would be a good idea

of course it could be the solder being used
I have never used lead free so don't know if this is more difficult
to use

With decent flux it's much the same - just melts at a slightly higher
temperature. Shouldn't cause problems if you're used to making end feed
joints.

Agreed. It also tends to have less of a pasty transition between solid and
liquid.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

Stuart wrote:
On Wed, 17 May 2006 17:24:21 GMT, Lobster
wrote:


Stuart wrote:

On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:55:59 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:


Perhaps this is the time for us to make a quick video of one being done
so you can see what to expect?

That would certainly be the business! (Actually, didn't someone suggest
a uk.d-i-y video collection a while ago?)


There is a wee video on the bernzomatic download page but I'm not sure that
it'll be of much help

Would that be at:
http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomat...dCentral.jhtml
I can't see any video there...?


Its in the .co.uk site

http://www.bernzomatic.co.uk/downloa...c_Movie_EN.wmv

Got it - cheers.

Well, having run out, I've just ordered a 25-pack of 15mm straight
connectors in tomorrow's Screwfix delivery, so I'm going to have one
more concerted effort to get this right. Watch this space!

David

In article ,
Lobster wrote:
Well, having run out, I've just ordered a 25-pack of 15mm straight
connectors in tomorrow's Screwfix delivery, so I'm going to have one
more concerted effort to get this right. Watch this space!

As a matter of interest, what flux and solder are you using?

--
*Elephants are the only mammals that can't jump *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



of course it could be the solder being used
I have never used lead free so don't know if this is more difficult
to use

With decent flux it's much the same - just melts at a slightly higher
temperature. Shouldn't cause problems if you're used to making end feed
joints.


Ok thanks
But of course lobster is not used to making end feed joints
Be interesting to know what solder and flux he was using
I see you have already asked this



--
*On the seventh day He brewed beer *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.