Hi All

Without entering the quality/longevity argument again, does the panel think
that a 'quality' make has performance advantages over a cheapie?

In other words, would a 12v Bosch/Makita/Hitachi perform as well or better
than say a £25 Argos/B&Q 14.4 volt jobby?

Obviously voltage isn't the only performance criteria, a two speed DD with a
gearbox must have higher torque than a single speed, but will you get a
performance advantage going for a 'quality' brand all other things being
equal?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Without entering the quality/longevity argument again, does the panel think
that a 'quality' make has performance advantages over a cheapie?

In other words, would a 12v Bosch/Makita/Hitachi perform as well or better
than say a ï½£25 Argos/B&Q 14.4 volt jobby?

Without any shadow of a doubt!

Obviously voltage isn't the only performance criteria, a two speed DD with a
gearbox must have higher torque than a single speed, but will you get a
performance advantage going for a 'quality' brand all other things being
equal?

OK ignoring the longevity issues etc and focusing on the difference in
useage:

Battery cell quality will dictate the torque, run time, and importantly
the discharge curve. Better cells also tend to be better matched (i.e.
one cell will have a discharge profile very similar to the next).
Ideally you want all the cells to be perfectly matched so that they all
discharge together, and you get full performance from the tool for
almost all of the discharge of the battery followed by a "cliff effect"
discharge at the end. A poor battery that has a few cells discharge
several mins before the others makes for very unsatisfying performance
(and also causes the battery to knacker itself in short order)

Better tools often have better fast chargers - some doing 15 or 30 min
recharge rather than one hour.

Speed controllers are another big difference area. More finesse of
control in general, and most importantly, significant torque available
at very slow speeds.

Torque limiters tend to be more accurate and repeatable on the better
quality tools, so you can set a limit and drive to it repeatedly always
ending up with a screw set at the same depth.

Weight and compactness: odd one this. If you are comparing 12V quality
with 12V budget the budget will tend to be bigger, but maybe lighter
given the lower quality cells. However to match the performance you may
need to go up a voltage or two which then raises the weight again.

Chucks: Decent ratchet action is nice - high end tools often have auto
brake and spindle locks that mean they can be used one handed. Note
however even some of the top end tools have been reducing chuck quality
of late.


I commented on a fair bit on some of these in the FAQs:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/cordless.htm
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/drill.htm

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Hi All

Without entering the quality/longevity argument again, does the panel
think that a 'quality' make has performance advantages over a cheapie?

In other words, would a 12v Bosch/Makita/Hitachi perform as well or
better than say a £25 Argos/B&Q 14.4 volt jobby?

Obviously voltage isn't the only performance criteria, a two speed DD
with a gearbox must have higher torque than a single speed, but will
you get a performance advantage going for a 'quality' brand all other
things being equal?

The main difference IMHO is the quality of the cells used. Ie, the amount
of current they can deliver. And they are the major cost of the tool.

--
*Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi All

Without entering the quality/longevity

Get your self a Ryobi Impact Driver. You will never look back. Go to B&Q,
and try one. Most have them on display and just plug in the battery.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:

Without entering the quality/longevity argument again, does the panel
think that a 'quality' make has performance advantages over a cheapie?

In other words, would a 12v Bosch/Makita/Hitachi perform as well or
better than say a ï½£25 Argos/B&Q 14.4 volt jobby?

NO. I have a 12v Bosch and a friend has just bout an Argos 14.4v job. It
****es all over my Bosch is power. I know I tried it.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


NO. I have a 12v Bosch and a friend has just bout an Argos 14.4v job. It
****es all over my Bosch is power. I know I tried it.


In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch PSR12VE DIY
models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v Challenge model.

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


NO. I have a 12v Bosch and a friend has just bout an Argos 14.4v job.
It ****es all over my Bosch in power. I know I tried it.

In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch PSR12VE
DIY models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v Challenge
model.

You clearly have not tried the two.

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:44:23 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Hi All

Without entering the quality/longevity argument again, does the panel think
that a 'quality' make has performance advantages over a cheapie?

In other words, would a 12v Bosch/Makita/Hitachi perform as well or better
than say a £25 Argos/B&Q 14.4 volt jobby?

Obviously voltage isn't the only performance criteria, a two speed DD with a
gearbox must have higher torque than a single speed, but will you get a
performance advantage going for a 'quality' brand all other things being
equal?

Absolutely.

You will get better batteries (the main cost factor), better mechanics
such as clutch and gearing.

Motor controllers in the quality makes give greater precision and
repeatability of control. There is nothing more irritating than
having to squeeze the trigger to different amounts for identical
operations and having the motor tend to run away.

There are ergonomic factors as well such as the balance of weight,
comfort of handle and so on.

All of the makes that you mention are good. Personally, I prefer
Makita out of these because I have found that they have consistency
across the range in different models.

However, if you are looking for a really good 12v drill driver, my
view is that the Festool C12 is the best on the market. The design,
with the use of electronically controlled induction motor (brushless)
is a first in a tool of this type and has won it several awards.

http://www.festool.co.uk/images/grea.../C12_broch.pdf

I find the versatility provided by the different chucks as well as the
ease of use a real benefit.

It ranks among my three favourite power tools.



--

..andy

Kaiser wrote:

In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch PSR12VE DIY
models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v Challenge model.

Don't worry about dribble, he will make up any "facts" required just so
he can argue.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Kaiser wrote:

In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch PSR12VE
DIY models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v Challenge
model.

Don't worry

Boy the Chav has come in.

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:44:23 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Hi All

Without entering the quality/longevity argument again, does the panel
think
that a 'quality' make has performance advantages over a cheapie?

In other words, would a 12v Bosch/Makita/Hitachi perform as well or better
than say a £25 Argos/B&Q 14.4 volt jobby?

Obviously voltage isn't the only performance criteria, a two speed DD with
a
gearbox must have higher torque than a single speed, but will you get a
performance advantage going for a 'quality' brand all other things being
equal?

Absolutely.

You will get better batteries (the main cost factor), better mechanics
such as clutch and gearing.

Motor controllers in the quality makes give greater precision and
repeatability of control. There is nothing more irritating than
having to squeeze the trigger to different amounts for identical
operations and having the motor tend to run away.

There are ergonomic factors as well such as the balance of weight,
comfort of handle and so on.

All of the makes that you mention are good. Personally, I prefer
Makita out of these

Matt! You don't say! Makita? Gosh.

because I have found that they have consistency
across the range in different models.

However, if you are looking for a really good 12v drill driver, my
view is that the Festool C12 is the best on the market. The design,
with the use of electronically controlled induction motor (brushless)
is a first in a tool of this type and has won it several awards.

http://www.festool.co.uk/images/grea.../C12_broch.pdf

I find the versatility provided by the different chucks as well as the
ease of use a real benefit.

It ranks among my three favourite power tools.



--

.andy

On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 02:30:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:44:23 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Hi All

Without entering the quality/longevity argument again, does the panel
think
that a 'quality' make has performance advantages over a cheapie?

In other words, would a 12v Bosch/Makita/Hitachi perform as well or better
than say a £25 Argos/B&Q 14.4 volt jobby?

Obviously voltage isn't the only performance criteria, a two speed DD with
a
gearbox must have higher torque than a single speed, but will you get a
performance advantage going for a 'quality' brand all other things being
equal?

Absolutely.

You will get better batteries (the main cost factor), better mechanics
such as clutch and gearing.

Motor controllers in the quality makes give greater precision and
repeatability of control. There is nothing more irritating than
having to squeeze the trigger to different amounts for identical
operations and having the motor tend to run away.

There are ergonomic factors as well such as the balance of weight,
comfort of handle and so on.

All of the makes that you mention are good. Personally, I prefer
Makita out of these

Matt! You don't say! Makita? Gosh.

Yes I do. If you keep saving up, you might be able to afford one one
day....


because I have found that they have consistency
across the range in different models.

However, if you are looking for a really good 12v drill driver, my
view is that the Festool C12 is the best on the market. The design,
with the use of electronically controlled induction motor (brushless)
is a first in a tool of this type and has won it several awards.

http://www.festool.co.uk/images/grea.../C12_broch.pdf

I find the versatility provided by the different chucks as well as the
ease of use a real benefit.

It ranks among my three favourite power tools.



--

.andy


--

..andy

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 02:30:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:44:23 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Hi All

Without entering the quality/longevity argument again, does the panel
think
that a 'quality' make has performance advantages over a cheapie?

In other words, would a 12v Bosch/Makita/Hitachi perform as well or
better
than say a £25 Argos/B&Q 14.4 volt jobby?

Obviously voltage isn't the only performance criteria, a two speed DD
with
a
gearbox must have higher torque than a single speed, but will you get a
performance advantage going for a 'quality' brand all other things being
equal?

Absolutely.

You will get better batteries (the main cost factor), better mechanics
such as clutch and gearing.

Motor controllers in the quality makes give greater precision and
repeatability of control. There is nothing more irritating than
having to squeeze the trigger to different amounts for identical
operations and having the motor tend to run away.

There are ergonomic factors as well such as the balance of weight,
comfort of handle and so on.

All of the makes that you mention are good. Personally, I prefer
Makita out of these

Matt! You don't say! Makita? Gosh.

Yes I do. If you keep saving up,
you might be able to afford one one
day....

I have no desire to make rich people richer by buying overrated, overpriced
products, when lower priced products are equally as good, or better.

On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 21:01:09 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



Matt! You don't say! Makita? Gosh.

Yes I do. If you keep saving up,
you might be able to afford one one
day....

I have no desire to make rich people richer by buying overrated, overpriced
products, when lower priced products are equally as good, or better.



That would be a reasonable approach when it is the case. Here it
isn't.


--

..andy

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
I have no desire to make rich people richer by buying overrated,
overpriced products, when lower priced products are equally as good, or
better.

This person has clearly no experience of using good quality tools.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


NO. I have a 12v Bosch and a friend has just bout an Argos 14.4v job.
It ****es all over my Bosch in power. I know I tried it.

In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch PSR12VE
DIY models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v Challenge
model.

You clearly have not tried the two.

You're correct, I've no experience of Challenge drills. I do however have
experience of other cheap drills in that class and you only get what you pay
for. Why on earth do you think the bigger manufacturers like Makita, Bosch,
Dewalt and Hitachi ect, have the lions share of the market even though they
are more expensive. Does it not occur to you that people would rather spend
a bit more on something that's going to last and make life easier than
struggle with inferior crap.

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


NO. I have a 12v Bosch and a friend has just bout an Argos 14.4v job.
It ****es all over my Bosch in power. I know I tried it.

In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch PSR12VE
DIY models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v Challenge
model.

You clearly have not tried the two.

You're correct, I've no experience of Challenge drills.

Thank you. So another know-it-all.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

I have no desire to make rich
people richer by buying overrated,
overpriced products, when lower
priced products are equally as good, or
better.

This

** snip senilty by Richard **

It must be time for his cocoa.

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:16:58 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


NO. I have a 12v Bosch and a friend has just bout an Argos 14.4v job.
It ****es all over my Bosch in power. I know I tried it.

In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch PSR12VE
DIY models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v Challenge
model.

You clearly have not tried the two.

You're correct, I've no experience of Challenge drills.

Thank you. So another know-it-all.


Are you worried about competition or something?


--

..andy

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
news
On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:16:58 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


NO. I have a 12v Bosch and a friend has just bout an Argos 14.4v
job.
It ****es all over my Bosch in power. I know I tried it.

In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch
PSR12VE
DIY models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v
Challenge
model.

You clearly have not tried the two.

You're correct, I've no experience of Challenge drills.

Thank you. So another know-it-all.

Are you worried about competition or something?

Matt, no one is competing with my 12v Bosch.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
news
On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:16:58 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


NO. I have a 12v Bosch and a friend has just bout an Argos 14.4v
job.
It ****es all over my Bosch in power. I know I tried it.

In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch
PSR12VE
DIY models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v
Challenge
model.

You clearly have not tried the two.

You're correct, I've no experience of Challenge drills.

Thank you. So another know-it-all.

Are you worried about competition or something?

Matt, no one is competing with my 12v Bosch.

I assume this is the Bosch drill driver that you own
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P...2.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Kaiser wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote
[ snip ]
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P...2.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

The ZZZZZZZ is singularly appropriate.

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
news
On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:16:58 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


NO. I have a 12v Bosch and a friend has just bout an Argos 14.4v
job.
It ****es all over my Bosch in power. I know I tried it.

In which case you have a faulty 12v Bosch, even the cheap Bosch
PSR12VE
DIY models have much more power than an Argos own brand 14.4v
Challenge
model.

You clearly have not tried the two.

You're correct, I've no experience of Challenge drills.

Thank you. So another know-it-all.

Are you worried about competition or something?

Matt, no one is competing with my 12v Bosch.

I assume this is the Bosch drill driver that you own
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P...2.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Not quite.