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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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what happens when gas runs out
how long do you all think we have gas for?
When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? |
#2
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what happens when gas runs out
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 GMT, "Fray Bentos"
wrote: how long do you all think we have gas for? In your case probably until the 50p in the meter runs out. When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? No. -- |
#3
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what happens when gas runs out
"Matt" wrote in message ... On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 GMT, "Fray Bentos" wrote: how long do you all think we have gas for? In your case probably until the 50p in the meter runs out. When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? No. -- That wasn't a nice answer. |
#4
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what happens when gas runs out
Fray Bentos wrote: how long do you all think we have gas for? When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? I'm sure Drivel has an answer. He's the one who keeps suggesting gas fired Micro CHP sets and make our homes even more dependent on the gas supply. MBQ |
#5
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what happens when gas runs out
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 GMT Fray Bentos wrote :
When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? Standard tariff electricity is 3-4 times the price of gas per kWh. But as we build better insulated and better sealed homes that need a lot less energy and as the price of gas c.h. servicing and repairs goes up the TCO of electric heating may well become lower than for gas. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm [Latest version QSEDBUK 1.12 released 8 Dec 2005] |
#6
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what happens when gas runs out
Tony Bryer wrote: On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 GMT Fray Bentos wrote : When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? Standard tariff electricity is 3-4 times the price of gas per kWh. But as we build better insulated and better sealed homes that need a lot less energy and as the price of gas c.h. servicing and repairs goes up the TCO of electric heating may well become lower than for gas. The TCO of leccy is a moving target given that so much of it is generated from gas. MBQ |
#7
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what happens when gas runs out
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 GMT, Fray Bentos wrote:
how long do you all think we have gas for? For as long as we all keep eating baked beans. -- Nigel M |
#8
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what happens when gas runs out
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 13:19:30 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote: On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 GMT Fray Bentos wrote : When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? Standard tariff electricity is 3-4 times the price of gas per kWh. But as we build better insulated and better sealed homes that need a lot less energy and as the price of gas c.h. servicing and repairs goes up the TCO of electric heating may well become lower than for gas. Given the huge reliance on of gas fired power generation that will only happen if we go for nuclear generation in a big way and someone makes a big breakthrough on waste disposal techniques. There is another possibility and that is if someone manages to harness the output of Dr Dribble -- |
#9
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what happens when gas runs out
Fray Bentos wrote:
"Matt" wrote in message ... On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 GMT, "Fray Bentos" wrote: how long do you all think we have gas for? In your case probably until the 50p in the meter runs out. When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? No. -- That wasn't a nice answer. But it didn't cots you as much as enough gas to boil a kettle..what did you expect? |
#10
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what happens when gas runs out
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 +0000, Fray Bentos wrote:
how long do you all think we have gas for? When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? My guess is that as gas/oil runs out it's relative price will increase. This will initially bring on further reserves. AIUI there is a massive amount of oil/gas on the western side of Scotland but it's in much deeper water and will require a higher price (I don't know what level though I was told is was 4 times the real price in 1995). There will be a shift back to coal, nuclear and renewables. Given the infrastructure we now have is northern europe for burning methane. I strongly suspect that plants for converting coal to Methane/Ethane will be built (I doubt that town gas will make a come back). -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
#11
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what happens when gas runs out
Fray Bentos wrote: how long do you all think we have gas for? When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? It will never run out. The utilities were provided at cost before Magrat Thechav. But now we have got used to being milked, the asset strippers she sold us out to can charge what they like -and do. It is quite easy for other utilities to make and sell hydrogen from a plentiful and self perpetuating resource. Everything else you have heard is designed to sell you red fish of particularly ripe pungency. Nuclear power plants can run almost indefinitely at 2% output but these rates are rarely reached 24/7 especially no in summer. Off peak they could easily be set to reduce water to its elementary particulate. All it needs is infrastructure but the asset strippers are not going to invest in the need. You only need to have a variety of the resellers come and change your meter to realise that cost cutting has rendered the service industry seriously dangerous. That is the problem. And now watch it worsen. |
#12
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what happens when gas runs out
It is quite easy for other utilities to make and sell hydrogen from a plentiful and self perpetuating resource. Everything else you have heard is designed to sell you red fish of particularly ripe pungency. Hydrogen ???? to replace natural gas (Methane) you are joking I take it ? Dave |
#13
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what happens when gas runs out
"Fray Bentos" wrote in message k... how long do you all think we have gas for? How long is a piece of string? Currently the oil companies are discovering new reserves of fossil fuels at a much faster rate than the rate at which their use increases (except for 2005, which had an unusually rapid, but short lived, increase in the rate of use, so that it just about matched new finds). In any case, for the foreseeable future, the limitation on how much fossil fuel is available is not what actual reserves there are in the Earth, but how much of those it is economic to harvest. As the price rises, so the technology to access more difficult reserves will become profitable to use and the recoverable reserves will increase. When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? Only if the greenies eventually come to realise that nuclear power is good. Colin Bignell |
#14
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what happens when gas runs out
On 15 Mar 2006 10:30:52 -0800, "Weatherlawyer"
wrote: Nuclear power plants can run almost indefinitely at 2% output but these rates are rarely reached 24/7 especially no in summer. 2% ????? -- |
#15
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what happens when gas runs out
Matt wrote:
On 15 Mar 2006 10:30:52 -0800, "Weatherlawyer" wrote: Nuclear power plants can run almost indefinitely at 2% output but these rates are rarely reached 24/7 especially no in summer. 2% ????? Chernobyl reached 100%, for a little while |
#16
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what happens when gas runs out
Dave Stanton wrote: Hydrogen ? To replace natural gas (Methane) you are joking I take it ? What's the problem? Cannisters of it stored outside would be safer than the heavier than air flammables. And in the mains at one time they used to use a dilute carbon monoxide hydrogen mix. Very dangerous as CO is poisonous. The main problem with hydrogen is that it is difficult to liquify. That isn't a problem with mains. It isn't a problem with cannisters either; it just requires a change of viewpoint. Besides it can be used in fuel cells or dissolved in methane. Or if worse comes to the worst, it can be fused with old sump oil, car tyres and kitchen waste to produce man made natural gasses. Try applying your grey matter to problems and what initially can appear daunting, ends up paling to insignificance. Let me repeat; there is no problem that, were the utility nationalised, should not disappear overnight. See alsohttp://www.psigate.ac.uk/newsite/reference/plambeck/chem1/p01264a.htm The other viable alternatives are coal. We stopped its production due to its production cost not its scarcity and vegetable oils which are about 15 pence after tax for edible quality oil. What less edible stuff is also available but not considered viable due to having no market at the moment remains to be seen. We know some algaes will produce toxic but rich fuel quality gasses. The reason to worry has not yet been reached. Nor is it likely to be. |
#17
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what happens when gas runs out
In message , Fray Bentos
writes how long do you all think we have gas for? When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? Baked beans and guinness ... it is a DIY group after all -- geoff |
#18
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what happens when gas runs out
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 22:21:02 GMT, raden wrote:
In message , Fray Bentos writes how long do you all think we have gas for? When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? Baked beans and guinness ... it is a DIY group after all Sprouts. They have the advantage of being available during the coldest months of the year. -- Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.pherber.com/ Visio Utilities http://www.visio-utilities.sandrila.co.uk/ |
#19
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what happens when gas runs out
In message . com,
Weatherlawyer writes Dave Stanton wrote: Hydrogen ? To replace natural gas (Methane) you are joking I take it ? What's the problem? Cannisters of it stored outside would be safer than the heavier than air flammables. And in the mains at one time they used to use a dilute carbon monoxide hydrogen mix. Very dangerous as CO is poisonous. The main problem with hydrogen is that it is difficult to liquify. That isn't a problem with mains. It isn't a problem with cannisters either; it just requires a change of viewpoint. Besides it can be used in fuel cells or dissolved in methane. Or if worse comes to the worst, it can be fused with old sump oil, car tyres and kitchen waste to produce man made natural gasses. Try applying your grey matter to problems and what initially can appear daunting, ends up paling to insignificance. Let me repeat; there is no problem that, were the utility nationalised, should not disappear overnight. See alsohttp://www.psigate.ac.uk/newsite/reference/plambeck/chem1/p01264a.htm "The location you specified does not exist on PSIgate. Please use the menu on the left to select an area of interest, or go directly to the PSIgate homepage " So it's OK boys and girls, we're going to be saved by pseudoscience -- geoff |
#20
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what happens when gas runs out
"Fray Bentos" wrote in message k... "Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message ... On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 GMT, "Fray Bentos" wrote: how long do you all think we have gas for? In your case probably until the 50p in the meter runs out. When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? No. That wasn't a nice answer. Just ignore Lord Hall. |
#21
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what happens when gas runs out
"Fray Bentos" wrote in message k... how long do you all think we have gas for? When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? Probably, with hot water from district CHP, as in Sweden. But with home with far higher insulation than the current building regs. |
#22
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what happens when gas runs out
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com saying something like: How long is a piece of string? Currently the oil companies are discovering new reserves of fossil fuels at a much faster rate than the rate at which their use increases Peak Oil is on us already, according to some very knowledgeable folk in the oil industry. (except for 2005, which had an unusually rapid, but short lived, increase in the rate of use, so that it just about matched new finds). In any case, for the foreseeable future, the limitation on how much fossil fuel is available is not what actual reserves there are in the Earth, No reserve is 100% obtainable. but how much of those it is economic to harvest. As the price rises, so the technology to access more difficult reserves will become profitable to use and the recoverable reserves will increase. Aye, and then there's the Falklands oil. That was reckoned to be economically retrievable when oil prices reach 80usd /barrel. Mind you, that was back in the 80s, and I don't think deepwater drilling has improved that enough in the past 20 years to make it realistic. -- Dave |
#23
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what happens when gas runs out
"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message ... We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com saying something like: How long is a piece of string? Currently the oil companies are discovering new reserves of fossil fuels at a much faster rate than the rate at which their use increases Peak Oil is on us already, according to some very knowledgeable folk in the oil industry. As it has been at regular intervals for the past 30 years, according to the same experts. However, they rely on Hubbert being right in assuming that the level of recoverable reserves are fixed, but that has proved to be wrong at regular intervals over the past 30 years. It will not be true until we reach the point where recovery technology cannot be improved and we are a long way from that. (except for 2005, which had an unusually rapid, but short lived, increase in the rate of use, so that it just about matched new finds). In any case, for the foreseeable future, the limitation on how much fossil fuel is available is not what actual reserves there are in the Earth, No reserve is 100% obtainable. We could, however, do a lot better than we do now, if anybody wanted to spend the mony on it, which they may well do in the future. Aye, and then there's the Falklands oil. That was reckoned to be economically retrievable when oil prices reach 80usd /barrel. Mind you, that was back in the 80s, and I don't think deepwater drilling has improved that enough in the past 20 years to make it realistic. The area is still disputed, so the oil companies will try to avoid it as long as possible, in case the Argentineans try another takeover and they lose all their investment. Similarly, the seabed around Greece and Turkey is geologically similar to the North Sea, but nobody wants to explore that area because of the long term political tension between the two countries. Politics is often as important in deciding where drilling takes place as the feasibility of extraction. Colin Bignell |
#24
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what happens when gas runs out
In article
raden wrote: In message . com, Weatherlawyer writes Dave Stanton wrote: Hydrogen ? To replace natural gas (Methane) you are joking I take it ? What's the problem? Cannisters of it stored outside would be safer than the heavier than air flammables. And in the mains at one time they used to use a dilute carbon monoxide hydrogen mix. Very dangerous as CO is poisonous. The main problem with hydrogen is that it is difficult to liquify. That isn't a problem with mains. It isn't a problem with cannisters either; it just requires a change of viewpoint. Besides it can be used in fuel cells or dissolved in methane. Or if worse comes to the worst, it can be fused with old sump oil, car tyres and kitchen waste to produce man made natural gasses. Try applying your grey matter to problems and what initially can appear daunting, ends up paling to insignificance. Let me repeat; there is no problem that, were the utility nationalised, should not disappear overnight. See alsohttp://www.psigate.ac.uk/newsite/reference/plambeck/chem1/p01264a.htm "The location you specified does not exist on PSIgate. Please use the menu on the left to select an area of interest, or go directly to the PSIgate homepage " So it's OK boys and girls, we're going to be saved by pseudoscience works fine for me: Wood Only wood among the renewable fuels is significant as a chemical raw material. Wood is a complex physical and chemical structure. Its overall elemental composition by mass is about 49% carbon, 6% hydrogen, and 0.2% nitrogen; the remaining elements and their amounts and forms vary considerably from one species of tree to another. The most common cations found in wood are calcium, potassium, and magnesium; common anions include carbonate, sulfate, phosphate, and silicate. These make up the noncombustible part of the wood, the ash. Wood can be partially burned to charcoal, which is essentially a porous form of pure carbon, in kilns which permit limited access of air. This process is called carbonization of the wood and has been in use from ancient times. Carbonization of wood will produce tar, and pine tar was once used for the calking of ships. For this reason tar and its products are still known as "naval stores". Wood tar has been used as a commercial source of acetic acid, methanol, and the solvent mixture called "turpentine". The combustible part of wood consists primarily of various forms of the glucose polymer &fuse('cellulose'). Much of the remainder, ranging from 18% to 28% of the total, is a complex polymer of a phenylpropane unit; this polymer is called lignin. Treatment of wood with either aqueous strong acid or aqueous strong base produces hydrolysis of all or part of the cellulose and releases a variety of water-soluble materials as well as glucose. Lignin, however, is resistant to hydrolysis and has not yet been converted to marketable products on a large scale. Coal Coal is the fuel present in largest quantity on earth. It is basically carbon, left over from bacterial action upon decaying plant matter in the absence of oxygen, usually under silt and water. Over millions of years the bacterial action and pressure compact the organic material, which steadily loses moisture. The original oxygen of the organic compounds is also lost along with most but not all of the original nitrogen and hydrogen, leaving the carbon. The first step in coal formation yields peat, compressed plant matter which still contains twigs and leaves. Peat, dug from peat bogs, is used as a fuel in Ireland and Russia. The next step is the formation of brown coal or lignite. Lignite has already lost most of the original moisture, oxygen, and nitrogen. It is widely used as a heating fuel but is of little chemical interest. The next stage, bituminous coal, is also widely used as a fuel for heating. It is the most abundant form of coal and is the source of coke for smelting, coal tar, and many forms of chemically modified fuels. Some coal found in areas of mountain building, such as the Rocky Mountains and Appalachian Mountains in North America, has been subjected to great heat and pressure as a metamorphic rock. This hard coal or anthracite is almost pure carbon. Domestic Gas From Coal Combustible gases have been known since the days of Van Helmont (d. 1644) and the burning of gas made by destructive distillation of coal was known as a curiosity by about 1700. Commercial development and public demonstration of gas for heat and light came from the work of Phillipe Lebon (1767-1804) in France. Lebon, who publicly demonstrated gas lighting in 1801 using gas obtained from the destructive distillation of wood, was killed in a street robbery and his work was not followed up in France for some time. William Murdock (1754-1859), an employee of the Boulton and Watt engineering firm then engaged in the manufacture of Watt-type steam engines, began his studies around 1791 and was interested in the products of the destructive distillation of coal. This process was used to make coke, or carbon, from coal and the other products, gas and coal- tar, were generally permitted to escape or were burned for fuel. Murdock did not see Lebon's Paris demonstration but Gregory Watt, second son of James Watt, did see it. Watt's report caused the Boulton-Watt firm to back Murdock's experiments and commercial gas plants for large mills were sold from 1804 onwards by the firm. Frederic Winsor, an eccentric German, also saw Lebon's demonstration in Paris. Winsor began independent demonstrations of gas lighting in London in 1804; his approach was the supply of gas by mains from central generating plants rather than the independent house or mill generating systems sold by Boulton and Watt. The Gas Light and Coke Company was chartered in 1812 and gas piping began to spread through London. Other metropolitan centers were served with gas at a later date,. Both wooden and cast-iron pipes were used. Gas lighting at this time was by flame; the present incandescent gas mantle was not developed until 1885, at which time incandescent electric lighting was taking over an increasing share of the lighting market. Gas today is either produced from coal and oil or found as natural gas. Natural gas is almost pure methane, CH4, with small amounts of other hydrocarbons, and is obtained from natural gas wells. Since the heat available per volume of natural gas is much greater than the heat obtained per volume of manufactured gas or "town gas", the burners and equipment must be converted when the supply is changed (as in Britain in the 1970's when town gas was replaced by natural gas from the North Sea). Natural gas, if obtainable, is preferable to town gas, but the supply is limited. Chemical reactions are used to produce town gas and to purify natural gas. Some of the same impurities, such as sulfur compounds, are common to both. The basic process of coke production is also that used for manufacture of town gas. Bituminous coal of the gasmaking type is perhaps 86% carbon, 5.5% hydrogen, 6% oxygen, and 2.5% or so nitrogen and sulfur. An elemental analysis is all that can be meaningfully given, since coal is a complex substance. When heated in the absence of air, coal produces carbon (coke) and a mixture of many gases, (crude coal gas). The heat for the carbonization of coal is provided by use of some of the the coke product in the strongly exothermic producer gas reaction: C + O2 -- CO2, DH0 = -393.509 kJ/mole which in the presence of insufficient oxygen drives the endothermic formation of carbon monoxide: CO2 + C -- 2CO, DH0 = +172.459 kJ/mole Partial use of the endothermic water gas shift reaction equilibrium: C + H2O(g) -- CO + H2, DH0 = +131.293 kJ/mole permits control of the temperature of the reaction zone and raises the heating value of the output producer gas slightly. The final composition of producer gas is about 12% hydrogen, 25% carbon monoxide, 7% carbon dioxide, and 56% nitrogen; the nitrogen comes from the air used in the producer gas reaction. Producer gas is mixed with crude coal gas to give crude town gas. Impurities are condensed out as the gas cools (water, tar, napthalene, ammonium chloride) or by absorption in water (NH3, H2S, CO2). The rest of the H2S is removed by reaction with Fe2O3, and the purified town gas is ready for delivery. A typical composition of town gas would be about 51% hydrogen, 15% carbon monoxide, 21% methane, 10% carbon dioxide and nitrogen, and about 3% other alkanes. The traditional process for producing town gas has been to some extent replaced by processes using feedstocks of oil or lower quality coal. The most promising of these is the Lurgi process developed in Germany in the late 1930's. The Lurgi process operates at a higher pressure (30-40 atm) than the traditional processes, and thus in addition to the producer gas reaction and the water gas shift reaction two other equilibrium reactions can occur, coal hydrogenation: C + 2H2 -- CH4, DH0 = -74.81 kJ/mole and the Sabatier synthesis: CO + 3H2 -- CH4 + H2O(g), DH0 = -206.103 kJ/mole At these higher pressures, virtually all of the carbon monoxide is removed by the water gas shift reaction, which considerably reduces the toxicity of the gas. The Lurgi process permits the conversion of coal into methane, from which one can synthesize other hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline. Such processes were operated on a large scale by Nazi Germany during the Second World War, but are not now economically competitive with hydrocarbon fuels obtained from oil feedstocks. |
#25
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what happens when gas runs out
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 01:42:59 -0000, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com wrote: Aye, and then there's the Falklands oil. That was reckoned to be economically retrievable when oil prices reach 80usd /barrel. Mind you, that was back in the 80s, and I don't think deepwater drilling has improved that enough in the past 20 years to make it realistic. The area is still disputed, so the oil companies will try to avoid it as long as possible, in case the Argentineans try another takeover and they lose all their investment. Similarly, the seabed around Greece and Turkey is geologically similar to the North Sea, but nobody wants to explore that area because of the long term political tension between the two countries. Politics is often as important in deciding where drilling takes place as the feasibility of extraction. Colin Bignell We could do with building some proper aircraft carriers to secure the oil thats rightly ours. Oh we are... |
#26
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what happens when gas runs out
On 15 Mar 2006 14:14:15 -0800, "Weatherlawyer"
wrote: The other viable alternatives are coal. We stopped its production due to its production cost not its scarcity and vegetable oils which are about 15 pence after tax for edible quality oil. What less edible stuff is also available but not considered viable due to having no market at the moment remains to be seen. The Malasians and Indonesians are currently clearing 22,000 hectares of rain forest to grow palm oil to satisfy the demand for bio deisel created by EU "green" targets. And this when we're being told not to use tropical hardwoods. The same problem exists with ethanol imported from Brazil in tankers to this country, so some target or other can be met. |
#27
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what happens when gas runs out
marble wrote in message Politics is often as important in deciding where drilling takes place as the feasibility of extraction. We could do with building some proper aircraft carriers to secure the oil thats rightly ours. Oh we are... But... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3718567.stm - |
#28
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what happens when gas runs out
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com saying something like: No reserve is 100% obtainable. We could, however, do a lot better than we do now, if anybody wanted to spend the mony on it, which they may well do in the future. I'd be surprised if extraction technology doesn't improve greatly, with the spur of rising prices. I find it scandalous that many fields are abandoned with substantial quantities of oil still in them. Cost, I suppose. -- Dave |
#29
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what happens when gas runs out
Mark wrote:
marble wrote in message Politics is often as important in deciding where drilling takes place as the feasibility of extraction. We could do with building some proper aircraft carriers to secure the oil thats rightly ours. Oh we are... But... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3718567.stm This contract is not looking too good right now. While Britain has given the yanks the technology of the Harrier's ability to fly vertical, they have not allowed us access to the technology of how to program the weapons system. I can't see Britain buying an aircraft that they can't program the missiles into bombing on any country they want to. The theory behind the yanks is that they will only let us arm the aircraft if they think the target is OK by them. Dave |
#30
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what happens when gas runs out
Dave wrote:
Mark wrote: marble wrote in message Politics is often as important in deciding where drilling takes place as the feasibility of extraction. We could do with building some proper aircraft carriers to secure the oil thats rightly ours. Oh we are... But... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3718567.stm This contract is not looking too good right now. While Britain has given the yanks the technology of the Harrier's ability to fly vertical, they have not allowed us access to the technology of how to program the weapons system. I can't see Britain buying an aircraft that they can't program the missiles into bombing on any country they want to. The theory behind the yanks is that they will only let us arm the aircraft if they think the target is OK by them. This is called the peace dividend, isn't it? |
#31
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what happens when gas runs out
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
I'd be surprised if extraction technology doesn't improve greatly, with the spur of rising prices. I find it scandalous that many fields are abandoned with substantial quantities of oil still in them. Cost, I suppose. Nothing to stop 'em drilling another hole later on... |
#32
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what happens when gas runs out
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Chris Bacon saying something like: Grimly Curmudgeon wrote: I'd be surprised if extraction technology doesn't improve greatly, with the spur of rising prices. I find it scandalous that many fields are abandoned with substantial quantities of oil still in them. Cost, I suppose. Nothing to stop 'em drilling another hole later on... True enough, but istr that previous extraction methods left some fields unusable for the remaining oil. Something to do with the peculiar geology of oil reservoirs. -- Dave |
#33
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what happens when gas runs out
"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message ... We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Chris Bacon saying something like: Grimly Curmudgeon wrote: I'd be surprised if extraction technology doesn't improve greatly, with the spur of rising prices. I find it scandalous that many fields are abandoned with substantial quantities of oil still in them. Cost, I suppose. Nothing to stop 'em drilling another hole later on... True enough, but istr that previous extraction methods left some fields unusable for the remaining oil. Something to do with the peculiar geology of oil reservoirs. Unusable in relation to oil almost always needs to be modified by the words 'at economic cost', which is a variable concept. Some capped wells could be revitalised by pumping gas down them and that is exactly where it is now proposed to pump excess CO2. It would probably be uneconomic to do it just to get the oil, but there is political mileage to be gained by doing something that people think will help prevent global warming. Of course, even if the 'CO2 is the culprit' pundits are right, the best that can be done is to delay the onset by a few years and the money being spent on 'prevention' would be much better spent on getting the world ready for an increase in temperature. Colin Bignell |
#34
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what happens when gas runs out
In message , nightjar
writes Unusable in relation to oil almost always needs to be modified by the words 'at economic cost', which is a variable concept. Some capped wells could be revitalised by pumping gas down them and that is exactly where it is now proposed to pump excess CO2. It would probably be uneconomic to do it just to get the oil, but there is political mileage to be gained by doing something that people think will help prevent global warming. Of course, even if the 'CO2 is the culprit' pundits are right, the best that can be done is to delay the onset by a few years and the money being spent on 'prevention' would be much better spent on getting the world ready for an increase in temperature. Carbon Capture and Sequestration is the next big thing in the power generation industry - for each kWh of power produced, your typical coal fired power station releases just short of 1 kg of CO2. Since last year, industry across Europe has been operating in an environment where they have a physical cap on the amount of CO2 that the whole of Europe emits. Each power station has a 'free' allocation of CO2 from the government that allows a limited amount of running each year, after that the plant has to buy what are called carbon credits from a traded market but for each year there is a finite number of carbon credits available. At present, a carbon credit is valued at around £16 per tonne so very roughly 1 MWh of generation releases 1 tonne of CO2 so the additional cost of each MWh generated over the plants carbon cap costs £16. Interestingly, the cost of coal for your average power station also costs around £16 for that MWh so the cost of the carbon credit is having the same effect on final electricity price as the cost of the fuel - whilst electricity prices in Europe have in the main been driven upwards by the spiralling cost of oil driving the gas prices there is an effect on prices since last year by the carbon market. Capturing the CO2 from a power station and stuffing it down an oil field (Enhanced Oil Recovery as it is known) would save the cost of carbon credits and release valuable oil so it is of great interest to the oil and power industries. Trouble is, getting the CO2 to the oil fields requires pipelines - yet another national infrastructure (and the technology to scrub the CO2 out of the power plants - very immature at the moment) so the best option is to build new coal plants on the East Coast of the UK close to the North Sea oil fields. Andy -- Andrew Sinclair http://www.smellycat.org |
#35
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what happens when gas runs out
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:48:51 +0000, Andrew Sinclair
wrote: Capturing the CO2 from a power station and stuffing it down an oil field (Enhanced Oil Recovery as it is known) would save the cost of carbon credits and release valuable oil so it is of great interest to the oil and power industries. Trouble is, getting the CO2 to the oil fields requires pipelines - yet another national infrastructure (and the technology to scrub the CO2 out of the power plants - very immature at the moment) so the best option is to build new coal plants on the East Coast of the UK close to the North Sea oil fields. .... or build nuclear ones and not have the carbon issue in the first place. -- ..andy |
#36
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what happens when gas runs out
"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:48:51 +0000, Andrew Sinclair wrote: Capturing the CO2 from a power station and stuffing it down an oil field (Enhanced Oil Recovery as it is known) would save the cost of carbon credits and release valuable oil so it is of great interest to the oil and power industries. Trouble is, getting the CO2 to the oil fields requires pipelines - yet another national infrastructure (and the technology to scrub the CO2 out of the power plants - very immature at the moment) so the best option is to build new coal plants on the East Coast of the UK close to the North Sea oil fields. ... or build nuclear ones and not have the carbon issue in the first place. Matt, we do away with street lights because we all glow in the dark. |
#37
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what happens when gas runs out
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 14:46:32 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote: "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message .. . On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:48:51 +0000, Andrew Sinclair wrote: Capturing the CO2 from a power station and stuffing it down an oil field (Enhanced Oil Recovery as it is known) would save the cost of carbon credits and release valuable oil so it is of great interest to the oil and power industries. Trouble is, getting the CO2 to the oil fields requires pipelines - yet another national infrastructure (and the technology to scrub the CO2 out of the power plants - very immature at the moment) so the best option is to build new coal plants on the East Coast of the UK close to the North Sea oil fields. ... or build nuclear ones and not have the carbon issue in the first place. Matt, we do away with street lights because we all glow in the dark. I think that we should do away with street lights anyway and cut down on light pollution. -- ..andy Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
#38
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what happens when gas runs out
"Tony Bryer" wrote in message ... On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:02:07 GMT Fray Bentos wrote : When it finally runs out / becomes too expensive / rare , will we be living in all-electric homes? Standard tariff electricity is 3-4 times the price of gas per kWh. But as we build better insulated and better sealed homes that need a lot less energy and as the price of gas c.h. servicing and repairs goes up the TCO of electric heating may well become lower than for gas. In some cases it already is. When I owned a rental flat it used to cost me almost as much to service the aged boiler [1] each year than I payed in electric to heat my own all electric (UK) house. There were some studios in the same block with GCH that could easily have been kept warm with 2 NSR at less TCO. GCH is installed because buyers 'expect' it. It really annoys me when I see these property programs criticise a small flat with perfectly adequate for the size of the property NSRs because "it needs GCH installing". tim [1] I couldn't replace it because the new ones (apparently) required a larger flue and the freeholders would allow tenants to make bigger holes in the roof. |
#39
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what happens when gas runs out
Nick wrote: Matt wrote: On 15 Mar 2006 10:30:52 -0800, "Weatherlawyer" wrote: Nuclear power plants can run almost indefinitely at 2% output but these rates are rarely reached 24/7 especially no in summer. 2% ? Chernobyl reached 100%, for a little while Quite nearly right. The graphite cored ones are pretty safe at 2%, not that I am advocating them. If more efficiency is required as it was demanded by the Tories during the miner's strike the balance hits a diminished return at some rate I am not familiar with. There is a greater need for vigilance of course and breakages may damage the graphite. It is contaminated graphite that renders the power station obsolete, or rather unusable. That at least is my limited understanding. They are facinating devices though. It seems now that the region surrounding Chernoble is a flourishing wildlife zone now. An as yet unknown factor is the take up in sub soil fungii. Apparantly a tree fed with radio-identifiable fertiliser can transport it into the soil and from the interaction with that tree's particular subsoil partner, to other trees in the region that are partnered with the same fungus. Perhaps they are helping dilute the concentrations. Or concentrating them where they won't be found until some politician builds a show house on the site one day. |
#40
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what happens when gas runs out
The message
from Andy Hall contains these words: I think that we should do away with street lights anyway and cut down on light pollution. And what, pray, would we hang the politicians from when we finally get fed up with 'em? -- Skipweasel Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. |
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