Please help. I have spent all day clearing my drains following a back up
into one of my loo's ( I have two, one out which was OK, and one in bathroom
, not OK!).

I have been led to believe that I have a septic tank system.. When I couldnt
get the second manhole to clear I lifted the cover on the septic tank to
see if the problem was there , looking for the rodding point like it says in
the diagrams in all the books.

I am new to septic tanks and dont actually know what its supposed to look
like.

However, mine does not look like the diagrams. It is brick built , oblong,
5ft x5ft and very very deep it would seem, at a guess 20 ft deep.
There are no visable inlet or outlet holes, no rodding t points, no vents
and no baffle between two chambers.

I can see some vertical slits like the slats of a ventilator in the brick
work at the water level. Not sure what those are. Cant find anything like it
on a diagram of a septic tank online.

Whether it even has two chambers and I have opened the inspection hatch to
the first only I do not know. I can only see this one.

I have managed to clear the intercepter drain into the tank but still
cannot see an inlet point from the drains system.. I am guessing its below
the water line.

Is this a septic tank?

I have a bungalow built about 1956 in Devon ( I state the location because
I have found from experience that often things here are different to other
parts of the country) on a smallholding. No mains connections available.

No recorded problems with this sytem as far as I know. I have not had a
problem with my drains until now.

No stinks no other symptoms of problems.

I am thinking of draining it to see if I can find the inlets but water level
is at least 13 ft down the hole. Depth of water/ deposits / silt I estimate
to be about 4 ft at the bottom.

I am not sure if my land drain is blocked?

Indeed will there be a land drain and if so which way is it likely to be
running? No plans to go by. Original plans of house say septic tank and
show it as two boxes , but the whole thing seems to be further over in the
original plans than the siting of this box.

No other manholes visable ( all grass area)

Anyone have something similar? Anyone seen anything similar?

howardsend wrote:
Please help. I have spent all day clearing my drains following a back up
into one of my loo's ( I have two, one out which was OK, and one in bathroom
, not OK!).

I have been led to believe that I have a septic tank system.. When I couldnt
get the second manhole to clear I lifted the cover on the septic tank to
see if the problem was there , looking for the rodding point like it says in
the diagrams in all the books.

I am new to septic tanks and dont actually know what its supposed to look
like.

However, mine does not look like the diagrams. It is brick built , oblong,
5ft x5ft and very very deep it would seem, at a guess 20 ft deep.
There are no visable inlet or outlet holes, no rodding t points, no vents
and no baffle between two chambers.

I can see some vertical slits like the slats of a ventilator in the brick
work at the water level. Not sure what those are. Cant find anything like it
on a diagram of a septic tank online.

Whether it even has two chambers and I have opened the inspection hatch to
the first only I do not know. I can only see this one.

I have managed to clear the intercepter drain into the tank but still
cannot see an inlet point from the drains system.. I am guessing its below
the water line.

Is this a septic tank?

Sounds pretty much like one yes.


I have a bungalow built about 1956 in Devon ( I state the location because
I have found from experience that often things here are different to other
parts of the country) on a smallholding. No mains connections available.

No recorded problems with this sytem as far as I know. I have not had a
problem with my drains until now.

No stinks no other symptoms of problems.

I am thinking of draining it to see if I can find the inlets but water level
is at least 13 ft down the hole. Depth of water/ deposits / silt I estimate
to be about 4 ft at the bottom.

I am not sure if my land drain is blocked?

Indeed will there be a land drain and if so which way is it likely to be
running? No plans to go by. Original plans of house say septic tank and
show it as two boxes , but the whole thing seems to be further over in the
original plans than the siting of this box.

No other manholes visable ( all grass area)

Anyone have something similar? Anyone seen anything similar?


Used to have something similar, but not as deep.

In use a septic tank does have a lot of water in it and a lot o sludge
on the bottom. The fact that its not overflowing means the water is
seeping out - probably as it was designed to - somewhere.

Normally there are tow or three chambers. These are fed from inlets just
above the base of the chamber (to allow for sludge build up) and drained
from higher up to the base of the next chamber.

If yours is now working fine, leave it alone, but if it really has 4 ft
of sludge in it, maybe getting it emptied (man with a hose and a tanker)
is a good idea.

Then it should be OK for another 15 years :-)

In emptying the 'tank' one thing I have always been told is to look for
"the blanket" which floats on the liquid and do not get rid of all of
this. They say this blanket has lots of the organisms which make these
tanks work, so save this at all costs while getting rid of solid sludge.

I can back up what Chris says about (a) smell and (b) the inlet being
some 18 to 24 inches down. I've a two chamber brick tank about 5 ft
square but not 20 ft deep, 6 or 8 ft I seem to remember. The inlet is
a vented trap constructed from porcelain pipes. The water passes over
a weir from one tank to the other and then goes out to a local burn via
a field drain - again this outlet can be clearly seen on the side of
the secondary tank.

It is worth noting that the first tank builds up a semi-solid cap where
the 'crap' breakdown action occurs - I'm tempted to think that if your
'tank' doesn't have this, it's not the primary one. And rather than
flush the loo, I would fill the bath with cold water and let that run
out as it may take you some time to hear the water flow. I would also
look for the vent to the trap into the primary tank.

A mucky septic tank story - at my second child's christening, the 3/4
year olds came up from the bottom of the garde saying there were
jobbies down there - a nappy liner had gone down the loo and blocked
the trap to the septic tank with a corresponding outflow from the vent
- just what you want when grannies, great aunts and all the rest are
there.
Rob

Rob

Rob

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 01:29:39 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
"howardsend" wrote this:-

I have been led to believe that I have a septic tank system.. When I couldnt
get the second manhole to clear I lifted the cover on the septic tank to
see if the problem was there , looking for the rodding point like it says in
the diagrams in all the books.

I am new to septic tanks and dont actually know what its supposed to look
like.

However, mine does not look like the diagrams. It is brick built , oblong,
5ft x5ft and very very deep it would seem, at a guess 20 ft deep.
There are no visable inlet or outlet holes, no rodding t points, no vents
and no baffle between two chambers.

There is often confusion between a septic tank and cesspool. I think
some of this confusion is deliberate, with those selling houses
actually knowing the difference but deciding not to mention the it.

If there is only one chamber then you have a cesspool and this will
need emptying from time to time. It seems most unlikely that the
inspection hatch to one chamber would be visible, but the other
would not be.

In theory a brick built cesspool could be converted to a septic
tank, assuming you could get the appropriate permissions and have
space. Septic tanks are an excellent way of disposing of sewage in
remote locations. Whether the expense of such a conversion is worth
it compared to having the cesspool emptied regularly depends on your
circumstances.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"robgraham" wrote in message
ups.com...
I can back up what Chris says about (a) smell and (b) the inlet being
some 18 to 24 inches down. I've a two chamber brick tank about 5 ft
square but not 20 ft deep, 6 or 8 ft I seem to remember. The inlet is
a vented trap constructed from porcelain pipes. The water passes over
a weir from one tank to the other and then goes out to a local burn via
a field drain - again this outlet can be clearly seen on the side of
the secondary tank.

It is worth noting that the first tank builds up a semi-solid cap where
the 'crap' breakdown action occurs - I'm tempted to think that if your
'tank' doesn't have this, it's not the primary one. And rather than
flush the loo, I would fill the bath with cold water and let that run
out as it may take you some time to hear the water flow. I would also
look for the vent to the trap into the primary tank.

Thank you all for your replies. I had a look at this the weekend and can
report a little more detail. It is large.

There is a second chamber which I couldnt see when I first posted because
the baffle(?) between the two chambers was under the water level ( and it
was dark and I couldnt quite see it!)

The inlet pipe is quite low down the tank side - or whatever it is - and
that was also on the water line at the time I posted.
The following morning when I investigated further it was visable ( water
level having dropped somewhat).

It is a bloody large tank! Much biger than I envisaged but it two chambers
apparently.

I am not sure what a crust is supposed to look like - will I see it or is it
under the water level? Does it circulate on top somehow? I may in facty have
one I am not sure since I am not sure what I am looking at ( that makes me
sound really thick I am sure but frankly septic tan ks and sewers have
never been high on my agenda previously.

I have , I think, now cleared the blocked drain and all the crap sailed into
the chamber through the hole followed b y much water that I flushed down to
clear it away.

I have for the moment put the man hole back and am waiting to see how it
goes.

I am unsure whether I need to get it pumped - maybe I should anyway in case
in neds re starting for decomposing since I have been stamping about (
metaphorically) in there.

My new worry is why my drain blocked. I am not sure b ut I may have a
dropped drain . I rodded down into I thought was about six inches of the
outlet into the tank and hit a block. I rodded back from the tank into the
drain and went back about 18 ins before hitting a block.

Short of escavating I am not sure how to establish if I have any problem....
or was it just a hard blockage and have shifted it?

A mucky septic tank story - at my second child's christening, the 3/4
year olds came up from the bottom of the garde saying there were
jobbies down there - a nappy liner had gone down the loo and blocked
the trap to the septic tank with a corresponding outflow from the vent
- just what you want when grannies, great aunts and all the rest are
there.
Rob

Rob

Rob

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 15:50:58 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
"howardsend" wrote this:-

The inlet pipe is quite low down the tank side - or whatever it is

That's good, but not ideal. The inlet should be a dip pipe, so that
the scum is not disturbed by inflow. Like the Persil adverts, dirt
is good. To prevent large flows passing straight through the tank
there should be a deep baffle (or a tank in two sections as below).

It is a bloody large tank! Much biger than I envisaged but it two chambers
apparently.

The outlet should also be a dip pipe, for the same reason. The
outlet pipe should only just be lower than the inlet, to ensure flow
through the tank is as slow as possible.

That is not the end of it. The liquid flowing out of the tank is not
pleasant. It should then be exposed to bacteria that like oxygen, in
a filter bed. An alternative is a land drain (if there is enough
land available).

I am unsure whether I need to get it pumped - maybe I should anyway in case
in neds re starting for decomposing since I have been stamping about (
metaphorically) in there.

A septic-tank does not need the liquid to be pumped out. However, it
does need the sludge removing occasionally. If it has backed up
then, assuming the problem is not a tree root or the like, the
problem is likely to be clogged land drains.

Excessive amounts of disinfectants and salt are not good for the
bacteria in a septic tank, but will not cause it to back up.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

howardsend wrote:

Thank you all for your replies. I had a look at this the weekend and can
report a little more detail. It is large.

There is a second chamber which I couldnt see when I first posted because
the baffle(?) between the two chambers was under the water level ( and it
was dark and I couldnt quite see it!)

The inlet pipe is quite low down the tank side - or whatever it is - and
that was also on the water line at the time I posted.
The following morning when I investigated further it was visable ( water
level having dropped somewhat).

It is a bloody large tank! Much biger than I envisaged but it two chambers
apparently.


Well its an old fashioned but seemingly well made septic tank..

I am not sure what a crust is supposed to look like - will I see it or is it
under the water level? Does it circulate on top somehow? I may in facty have
one I am not sure since I am not sure what I am looking at ( that makes me
sound really thick I am sure but frankly septic tan ks and sewers have
never been high on my agenda previously.

What you get with a septic tank is more or less this.

(i) all suspended solids like sand and grit fall down to the bottom of
the first tank.

(ii) Any light solids go to te top

(iii) most of the organic chemistry takes place in between.

(iv) over time the organics break down into various noxious gases and
various soluble chemicals.

(v) the first chamber is designed to more or less settle out irreducible
solids, and to do the first digestion stage..

(vi) from the first chamber there is a pipe that starts somewhere near
the base of the first chamber - not at the bottom or it get clogged, not
at the top because it picks up nasty floating turdness, but somewhere in
the middle.
This pipe goes into the second chamber, but ends much higher than it
started, the idea being that you want the water level in the first tank
to be high.

(vii)Typically the final outlet from the second (or third) chamber will
be AT the water level of the second or third chamber, as it generally
runs downhill to a stream or soakaway from there.

(ix) Too much silt at the bottom blocks interchamber connectivity, and
needs removing

(x) too much crust on top (looks like peat - actually probably IS peat)
stops final outflow if it extends to the last chamber, and may block
interchamber connectivity if its thick enough..

Thats all about te layers, and why you (occasionally) need to empty
these things.



I have , I think, now cleared the blocked drain and all the crap sailed into
the chamber through the hole followed b y much water that I flushed down to
clear it away.

I have for the moment put the man hole back and am waiting to see how it
goes.

I am unsure whether I need to get it pumped - maybe I should anyway in case
in neds re starting for decomposing since I have been stamping about (
metaphorically) in there.

No. I think if you have no huge crust, and flow is happening between the
chambers, then all is well. However....

My new worry is why my drain blocked. I am not sure b ut I may have a
dropped drain . I rodded down into I thought was about six inches of the
outlet into the tank and hit a block. I rodded back from the tank into the
drain and went back about 18 ins before hitting a block.


Not good. Any trees nearby?

Short of escavating I am not sure how to establish if I have any problem....
or was it just a hard blockage and have shifted it?


Its not that hard to excavate actually. Depending how deep.

A typical problem is that a tree root cracks a pipe, then root hair
fibres get in, and slow the flow down making blockages much more likely.

Just out of interest - what criteria does one use to judge when a
spetic tank does require pumping out? The interpretation of the above
thread is that a cess pool requires regular pumping - yearly? - but
that a septic tank rarely requires this treatment. I suppose it does
depend on the size of the septic tank and the domestic throughput, but
that still brings back the question -- when?

I had mine done after fully 15 years recently and the operator wasn't
too impressed ! What seemed to be upsetting him was that the crust was
hard and therefore required more work to process.

Rob

robgraham wrote:
Just out of interest - what criteria does one use to judge when a
spetic tank does require pumping out? The interpretation of the above
thread is that a cess pool requires regular pumping - yearly? - but
that a septic tank rarely requires this treatment. I suppose it does
depend on the size of the septic tank and the domestic throughput, but
that still brings back the question -- when?

I had mine done after fully 15 years recently and the operator wasn't
too impressed ! What seemed to be upsetting him was that the crust was
hard and therefore required more work to process.

Rob


Well they all want you do do it yearly...but as you have discovered, you
can leave it a long time.

Id say when the crust turns to something a cat can stand on, its tome to
remove (the crust) and when the sediment compromises the interchamber
exchanger then its also time to get THAT out.

My klargester seems to like about 3 yearly attention..its specced for a
6 bedroom house but there are only two of us. A big septic tank - every
5 years or so probably.

robgraham wrote:
I put in a query just now about the frequency of pumping tanks and
remembered afterwards that I should have put in a warning based on my
own experience. Unless the drains have been replaced, all older
properties have porcelain drains and very often a distinct lack of
access points for rodding. In my own case the run from the bathroom at
the back of the house goes all the way round and down to the tank
without access - a distance of pushing 100 yards with one right angle
bend.

When I redid the bathroom I fitted a low flush loo. After 6 months
when there was no bath in use the drains blocked - I had to excavate !
It was purely the lack of flow as I switched the loo to full flush and
the problem never reappeared. The bath was not refitted for several
years. New neighbours had exactly the same problem after a bathroom
refit.

Rob

YOU SHOULD have a manhole at every direction change these days..
building regs.

Occasional tipping of buckets of water down the toilet is a Good Thing too.

Plus a yearly 'leave the taps running for an hour' to see whether water
is flowing freely and cleanly.

I always think opening up the drains and running hoses around annually
is no bad thing. Preferably on a warm spring day, rather than in the
depths of winter, in an emergency, when someone has flushed the electric
toothbrush and a pair of tights down the loo by mistake

On 15 Mar 2006 10:25:14 -0800 someone who may be "robgraham"
wrote this:-

Just out of interest - what criteria does one use to judge when a
spetic tank does require pumping out?

When the sludge is deep and so there is not much space for liquid.
Infrequently.

The interpretation of the above
thread is that a cess pool requires regular pumping - yearly?

Depends on the size and amount of liquid put into it. There is no
one answer.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:43:38 +0000 someone who may be The Natural
Philosopher wrote this:-

I always think opening up the drains and running hoses around annually
is no bad thing. Preferably on a warm spring day, rather than in the
depths of winter, in an emergency, when someone has flushed the electric
toothbrush and a pair of tights down the loo by mistake

You have to tell us more after teasing us like this:-)


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
robgraham wrote:
Just out of interest - what criteria does one use to judge when a
spetic tank does require pumping out? The interpretation of the above
thread is that a cess pool requires regular pumping - yearly? - but
that a septic tank rarely requires this treatment. I suppose it does
depend on the size of the septic tank and the domestic throughput, but
that still brings back the question -- when?

I had mine done after fully 15 years recently and the operator wasn't
too impressed ! What seemed to be upsetting him was that the crust was
hard and therefore required more work to process.

Rob


Well they all want you do do it yearly...but as you have discovered, you
can leave it a long time.

Id say when the crust turns to something a cat can stand on, its tome to
remove (the crust) and when the sediment compromises the interchamber
exchanger then its also time to get THAT out.

My klargester seems to like about 3 yearly attention..its specced for a 6
bedroom house but there are only two of us. A big septic tank - every 5
years or so probably.

I can reccomend listening to "Laughter with a bang" the Blaster Bates record
for an appreciation of dealing with a Septic Tank

David Hansen wrote in message
...
On 15 Mar 2006 10:25:14 -0800 someone who may be "robgraham"
wrote this:-

Just out of interest - what criteria does one use to judge when a
spetic tank does require pumping out?

When the sludge is deep and so there is not much space for liquid.
Infrequently.

The interpretation of the above
thread is that a cess pool requires regular pumping - yearly?

Depends on the size and amount of liquid put into it. There is no
one answer.

Agreed, the Environment Agency recommend when the bottom silt content
reaches 25% of volume.
This will depend entirely on the design and usage of the tank.
(Baby wipes are a ST killer)
If you start getting silt going down the soak-away,
It _will_ eventually block and cause lots of unnecessary digging to rectify.




-

"Owain" wrote in message

A cess pool / pit requires *emptying* - it is merely a storage container
for the effluent. This might be as often as every 4 weeks depending on the
size of the pit and the amount of effluent produced by the household.

A cess pit which does not need emptying is leaking, and illegal.

Owain

I am leaving my septic tank - since it is obviously functioning as that ,
whatever its construction for a short time to see how it goes now.

I am fairly certain by backed up drains were due to a blockage in the drains
.. I am being informed now that a certain toilet paper may have not been a
good choice and it ( and the crap behind it) could have caused problems.

I have a couple ofd weeks leave next week and might investigate more then.

I have doen a little research ( from neighbourhood memory). Many locals
tell me we have the kind of septic tank that "lasts forever" and " doesnt
need pumping"..... ??

Meanwhile on the abolve note, are those old seepage tanks ( apparently in
the 1930's they built a lot of them in the stix) which are basically a
cesspit with land drains running the water off still legal.

I do not have one, mine is definately two chambers, but I have heard of a
house which does.
They dont have theirs pumped either.

Owain wrote:
robgraham wrote:
Just out of interest - what criteria does one use to judge when a
spetic tank does require pumping out? The interpretation of the above
thread is that a cess pool requires regular pumping - yearly? -

A cess pool / pit requires *emptying* - it is merely a storage container
for the effluent. This might be as often as every 4 weeks depending on
the size of the pit and the amount of effluent produced by the household.

A cess pit which does not need emptying is leaking, and illegal.

Owain

However we are talking about septic tanks, not cess pits or pools.

howardsend wrote:
"Owain" wrote in message

A cess pool / pit requires *emptying* - it is merely a storage container
for the effluent. This might be as often as every 4 weeks depending on the
size of the pit and the amount of effluent produced by the household.

A cess pit which does not need emptying is leaking, and illegal.

Owain

I am leaving my septic tank - since it is obviously functioning as that ,
whatever its construction for a short time to see how it goes now.

I am fairly certain by backed up drains were due to a blockage in the drains
. I am being informed now that a certain toilet paper may have not been a
good choice and it ( and the crap behind it) could have caused problems.

I have a couple ofd weeks leave next week and might investigate more then.

I have doen a little research ( from neighbourhood memory). Many locals
tell me we have the kind of septic tank that "lasts forever" and " doesnt
need pumping"..... ??

Meanwhile on the abolve note, are those old seepage tanks ( apparently in
the 1930's they built a lot of them in the stix) which are basically a
cesspit with land drains running the water off still legal.

I do not have one, mine is definately two chambers, but I have heard of a
house which does.
They dont have theirs pumped either.


Even your current septic tank is probably not legal for a *new* build.

Things have tightened up a lot in the **** tank area.

most BCO's say 'klargester' and leave you to sort it out these days.

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:03:59 GMT, Mark wrote:

Agreed, the Environment Agency recommend when the bottom silt content
reaches 25% of volume.

How does one measure the bottom silt content?

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:43:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:03:59 GMT, Mark wrote:

Agreed, the Environment Agency recommend when the bottom silt content
reaches 25% of volume.

How does one measure the bottom silt content?

Scuba gear and great bravery?

Dave Liquorice wrote in message
ll.com...
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:03:59 GMT, Mark wrote:

Agreed, the Environment Agency recommend when the bottom silt content
reaches 25% of volume.

How does one measure the bottom silt content?


long pole ;(
http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/age...u/ae892-27.gif


-

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:43:07 +0000, Owain wrote:

If the silt's up to your knees when you're just about blowing bubbles,
that's probably 25%

Our tank is deeper than that... one of the new bottle thingies 3m in dia
IIRC.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:46:26 GMT, Mark wrote:

long pole ;(
http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/age...u/ae892-27.gif

I guessed a dip stick but as the sludge is very soft I doubted you would
be able to "feel" the transistion from water to sludge and anything
sticking to the stick would get washed off coming back up through the
water or wiped off on the crust.

Cloth on the end solves both of those. Not that I'm going out there
today, in the cold E'ly and blowing powder snow.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote in message
ll.com...
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:46:26 GMT, Mark wrote:

long pole ;(
http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/age...u/ae892-27.gif

I guessed a dip stick but as the sludge is very soft I doubted you would
be able to "feel" the transistion from water to sludge and anything
sticking to the stick would get washed off coming back up through the
water or wiped off on the crust.

Cloth on the end solves both of those. Not that I'm going out there
today, in the cold E'ly and blowing powder snow.


Hmm.. ive not noticed a _good_ day to do this job ;(
In reality you should have a good idea as to the frequency this needs to be
done.
2 to 7 years, heavy use with lots of slow to biodegrade paper/wipes, etc /-/
light use, two people that mostly only crap in the thing.
The other thing to remember, it's a lot cheaper to have a septic tank
emptied before it critically needs doing, then it is to renew the soakaway
system.



-