I am a complete novice to plumbing, but learning fast! We moved into an
old house (1930's) 18 months ago and got thru the 1st winter with no
probs. This winter however our downstairs radiators cooled down then
stopped working all together. The boiler was making the most almightly
cracking and banging noises and hot water was pumping over into the
feed and expansion tank.

Our boilerman came round and checked the pump, which he said was
working. He diagnosed a blockage possibly caused by a build up of silt
and sludge in the system. Following his directions we used chemicals
(Sentinel) to clean the system out. We left the chemicals in for about
a month then flushed the system out completely. Some of the radiators
came on during the period when the chemicals were in - but remained
firmly cold after we flushed everything out. On our second visit from
our boilerman he recommended a powerflush - but suggested one last go
with a different brand of chemical (Fernox). This has been in the
system for about 10 days. On draining down the system this time around
the water coming out of the system was the colour of strong tea -
red/orange colour. One of the radiators downstairs is full of black
liquid.

I came home from work to find our very noisy boiler completely silent.
Its now cut out completely. The hot water cylinder is still very hot
and the pump appears to be whirring around, although Im not sure that
its making a very happy noise. THe upstairs radiators which so far have
been hot, are now cold apart from one. On bleeding the radiators (in a
futile attempt at doing something useful) I found that most of the
radiators are now full of the tea coloured water.

Can anyone help diagnose what is wrong so I know what to do. Is this
situation irredemable and are we going to have to fork out for a new
boiler and heating system - I really hope not. Im pregnant and this is
about the last thing that I need to be worrying about just now!

Any advice at all will be most gratefully received.
Thanks in advance!
Coldtoes.

Owain wrote:
Coldtoes wrote:

Our boilerman came round and checked the pump, which he said was
working. He diagnosed a blockage possibly caused by a build up of silt
and sludge in the system. Following his directions we used chemicals
(Sentinel) to clean the system out. ... On our second visit from
our boilerman he recommended a powerflush - but suggested one last go
with a different brand of chemical (Fernox). ,,,


If one radiator and the tank is hot the boiler and pump are probably OK,
the rest are blocked. Could the system be half full of air after
draining and refilling. Bleed the radiators properly and try opening up
any balancing valves or thermostatic valves on the radiators.

john2

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:49:37 +0000, Owain wrote:

Coldtoes wrote:
Our boilerman came round and checked the pump, which he said was
working. He diagnosed a blockage possibly caused by a build up of silt
and sludge in the system. Following his directions we used chemicals
(Sentinel) to clean the system out. ... On our second visit from
our boilerman he recommended a powerflush - but suggested one last go
with a different brand of chemical (Fernox). ,,,

It is possible that the sludge has killed the pump, the boiler has
overheated and cut out.

If the system has worked in the past it will probably work again, but it
needs a proper clean out. You can hire the powerflush machine and DIY or
alternatively take the radiators out into the garden and hose them out.
A new pump is usually quite cheap.

See Andy Hall's postings on this subject [1] and when he warns that
radiator sludge is indelible on carpets he means it :-)


This is a sick heating system.

I diagnose pump failure and/or serious sludge and corrosion.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:49:37 +0000, Owain wrote:
Coldtoes wrote:

Our boilerman came round and checked the pump, which he said was
working. He diagnosed a blockage possibly caused by a build up of silt
and sludge in the system. Following his directions we used chemicals
(Sentinel) to clean the system out. ... On our second visit from
our boilerman he recommended a powerflush - but suggested one last go
with a different brand of chemical (Fernox). ,,,

It is possible that the sludge has killed the pump, the boiler has
overheated and cut out.

If the system has worked in the past it will probably work again, but it
needs a proper clean out. You can hire the powerflush machine and DIY or
alternatively take the radiators out into the garden and hose them out.
A new pump is usually quite cheap.

See Andy Hall's postings on this subject [1] and when he warns that
radiator sludge is indelible on carpets he means it :-)


This is a sick heating system.

I diagnose pump failure and/or serious sludge and corrosion.


replacement pump and flushing can both be done yourself for well under
£100 all in. Expect to get soaked


NT

Owain wrote:

Coldtoes wrote:

See Andy Hall's postings on this subject [1] and when he warns that
radiator sludge is indelible on carpets he means it :-)

I don't disagree about radiator sludge on carpets, but in a previous
existence, I accidentally emptied out the black dregs of a radiator onto
the middle of a white carpet. The rapid application of some gallons of
warm water and a wet and dry vac did actually remove the stain, to the
point where she didn't notice.

Regards
Capitol

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:17:16 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:49:37 +0000, Owain wrote:

Coldtoes wrote:
Our boilerman came round and checked the pump, which he said was
working. He diagnosed a blockage possibly caused by a build up of silt
and sludge in the system. Following his directions we used chemicals
(Sentinel) to clean the system out. ... On our second visit from
our boilerman he recommended a powerflush - but suggested one last go
with a different brand of chemical (Fernox). ,,,

It is possible that the sludge has killed the pump, the boiler has
overheated and cut out.

If the system has worked in the past it will probably work again, but it
needs a proper clean out. You can hire the powerflush machine and DIY or
alternatively take the radiators out into the garden and hose them out.
A new pump is usually quite cheap.

See Andy Hall's postings on this subject [1] and when he warns that
radiator sludge is indelible on carpets he means it :-)


This is a sick heating system.

I diagnose pump failure and/or serious sludge and corrosion.


This is where you say to a very worried looking customer:

"Mrs. Jones....... It's yer pump"

and Mrs. Jones asks (as though you are an eminent cardiac consultant)

"Will it be all right?"

and you nod and smile reassuringly that it will; while the orchestra
rises and the apprentice tags along behind in admiration.


--

..andy

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:49:37 +0000, Owain wrote:

Coldtoes wrote:
Our boilerman came round and checked the pump, which he said was
working. He diagnosed a blockage possibly caused by a build up of silt
and sludge in the system. Following his directions we used chemicals
(Sentinel) to clean the system out. ... On our second visit from
our boilerman he recommended a powerflush - but suggested one last go
with a different brand of chemical (Fernox). ,,,
It is possible that the sludge has killed the pump, the boiler has
overheated and cut out.

If the system has worked in the past it will probably work again, but it
needs a proper clean out. You can hire the powerflush machine and DIY or
alternatively take the radiators out into the garden and hose them out.
A new pump is usually quite cheap.

See Andy Hall's postings on this subject [1] and when he warns that
radiator sludge is indelible on carpets he means it :-)


This is a sick heating system.

I diagnose pump failure and/or serious sludge and corrosion.


I am not so sure. When I commissioned my system here , I had a huge
problem in getting some remote rads to actually fill with water at all.

The solution was to turn off (using the balancing valves).. all
radiators apart from the highest one that always seemed to trap air, and
the offending ones, and crank the pump up to 11...;-)

That finally blew the air out and back to where it could be bled properly.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 18:26:24 +0000, john2 wrote:


If one radiator and the tank is hot the boiler and pump are probably OK,
the rest are blocked.


Not so, they could be heated by convection, as the only working
radiator is on the 1st floor this would be a symptom of either a
broken pump or a mid position valve stuck in the mid position and the
water taking the path of least resistance through the cylinder.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:19:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:49:37 +0000, Owain wrote:

Coldtoes wrote:
Our boilerman came round and checked the pump, which he said was
working. He diagnosed a blockage possibly caused by a build up of silt
and sludge in the system. Following his directions we used chemicals
(Sentinel) to clean the system out. ... On our second visit from
our boilerman he recommended a powerflush - but suggested one last go
with a different brand of chemical (Fernox). ,,,
It is possible that the sludge has killed the pump, the boiler has
overheated and cut out.

If the system has worked in the past it will probably work again, but it
needs a proper clean out. You can hire the powerflush machine and DIY or
alternatively take the radiators out into the garden and hose them out.
A new pump is usually quite cheap.

See Andy Hall's postings on this subject [1] and when he warns that
radiator sludge is indelible on carpets he means it :-)


This is a sick heating system.

I diagnose pump failure and/or serious sludge and corrosion.


I am not so sure. When I commissioned my system here , I had a huge
problem in getting some remote rads to actually fill with water at all.

The solution was to turn off (using the balancing valves).. all
radiators apart from the highest one that always seemed to trap air, and
the offending ones, and crank the pump up to 11...;-)

That finally blew the air out and back to where it could be bled properly.

Sorry, I rarely work on header tank installations now and I forget just
how difficult it can be to get the air out.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:44:15 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote:

I spent a pleasant evening with a consultant surgeon friend discussing the
parallels between heating diagnoses and medical ones.

The parallels go much further and deeper than either of us would
have anticipated.

Here are some of the things we talked about:
1) People refer to the problems with their own terminology which you have
to tune into.

2) Some people are embarrassed about certain aspects of medical matters or
plumbing (think muslims and WCs) and will parry around the subject.

3) Sometimes a wrong diagnosis has been given (even by those who could do
better). Then the ramifications of getting the wrong one over turned and
the correct treatment instigated.

4) Quack remedies, which are nevertheless very popular.

5) People whose knowledge is out of date and therefore reject and/or
are suspicious of more recent developments.

6) What to do when the cure is much worse than the problem.

7) The iceberg problem: presenting symptoms apparently small, real problem
huge, breaking the news.

8) Get a second opinion for something drastic/expensive (relates to 3
and 5 too!)

cheers,
Pete.

john2 wrote:
Owain wrote:
Coldtoes wrote:

Our boilerman came round and checked the pump, which he said was
working. He diagnosed a blockage possibly caused by a build up of silt
and sludge in the system. Following his directions we used chemicals
(Sentinel) to clean the system out. ... On our second visit from
our boilerman he recommended a powerflush - but suggested one last go
with a different brand of chemical (Fernox). ,,,


If one radiator and the tank is hot the boiler and pump are probably OK,
the rest are blocked. Could the system be half full of air after
draining and refilling. Bleed the radiators properly and try opening up
any balancing valves or thermostatic valves on the radiators.

john2

On mine the pump itself was blocxked with bit of rust and the sludge
made it turn too slow. I had to clean it frequently until the system
was clean.