It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid,
with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting
fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no
run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers a
how much beta emission would be needed?
where can it be got from, if anywhere?
is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking


X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

On 19 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0700, wrote:

It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid,
with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting
fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no
run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers a
how much beta emission would be needed?
where can it be got from, if anywhere?
is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking


X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Not going to try answering any of the individual questions, due to
severe lack of knowledge/confidence, but
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/disea...rradiation.htm
seems to have lots of useful information on the subject :-)

--
"The perfect computer has been developed. You just feed in your problems
and they never come out again."
- Al Goodman.

In article .com,
writes:
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter?

I think the commercial sterilisers use gamma radiation.

Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Commercial food irradiation plants exist. They are large because
the idea is to irradiate many piles of pallets all at once.

Whilst this is allowed in some countries, it is illegal in others.
It is legal in the UK for a few classes of food, but not done because
all the supermarkets told their suppliers that if they did any food
irradiation (even for other customers or export), the supermarkets
would not buy any of their products.

It doesn't work for all foods, e.g. soft fruits turn to mush, and
vegetables with cell structures can become very vulnerable to
bacterial infection afterwards, rampaging through them much faster
than before the irradiation was done. Also, killing bacteria doesn't
have any effect on the toxins they have produced in the food, and
often it is these rather than the bacteria themselves which are
harmful. Irradiation also kills all the natural bacteria in food,
much of which is there in a symbiotic form to help protect against
more harmful bacteria, so reinfestation by more harmful bacteria
after irradiation can be a serious issue in non-sterile environments.

Or might xrays be better?

gamma rays are used. I don't know if xrays would work.

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid,
with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting
fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no
run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers a
how much beta emission would be needed?

The ones used by the food industry emit enough that it ionises the
air near the source giving a blue/purple glow. I don't know what
the radioactive source used is, but it's kept under water to help
cool it when not in use.

where can it be got from, if anywhere?
is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

Not a chance for commercial units. I don't know to what extent the
process can be scaled down, say to a domestic fridge-sized unit.

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking

Another problem for anything which uses a permanent radioactive
source is disposal, particularly in the third world.

Do a google search on food irradiation, or "cold pasteurisation"
for the less publically scary term.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 19 Jun 2005 17:26:52 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:


Whilst this is allowed in some countries, it is illegal in others.
It is legal in the UK for a few classes of food, but not done because
all the supermarkets told their suppliers that if they did any food
irradiation (even for other customers or export), the supermarkets
would not buy any of their products.

I was unaware of this. That level of ignorance is scary. Supermarkets
prefer their customers to die. /Nice/.

Mental note to self: look up which supermarkets were involved, do not
shop there.


--
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:59:09 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On 19 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0700, wrote:

It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid,
with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting
fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no
run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers a
how much beta emission would be needed?
where can it be got from, if anywhere?
is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking


X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)

...Jim Thompson


In the US, spices are commonly zapped to kill bugs, and some other
foods, I think. They use either gammas from an radioisotope source, or
electrons from an accelerator. Google 'food irradiation' or something.

Zapping chicken and certain seafoods would probably save a thousand
lives for every cancer produced.

John

"Chip" wrote in message
n.net...
On 19 Jun 2005 17:26:52 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:


Whilst this is allowed in some countries, it is illegal in others.
It is legal in the UK for a few classes of food, but not done because
all the supermarkets told their suppliers that if they did any food
irradiation (even for other customers or export), the supermarkets
would not buy any of their products.

I was unaware of this. That level of ignorance is scary. Supermarkets
prefer their customers to die. /Nice/.

Customers don't want irradiated food.
In the UK we don't need irradiated food.
The stuff we get is fresh and it doesn't need to keep for weeks while losing
all its vitamins.

On 19 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0700, wrote:

It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid,
with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting
fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no
run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers a
how much beta emission would be needed?
where can it be got from, if anywhere?
is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking


X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

A device to do this has been made, and was published a few years back,
but the feeling was that the UK market was not ready for food treaded
in such a way.

I belive a seach of New Scientest will find the article for you, but
it was a while ago, so it may be a different magazine.

Rick

In article t,
Chip writes:
On 19 Jun 2005 17:26:52 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:


Whilst this is allowed in some countries, it is illegal in others.
It is legal in the UK for a few classes of food, but not done because
all the supermarkets told their suppliers that if they did any food
irradiation (even for other customers or export), the supermarkets
would not buy any of their products.

I was unaware of this. That level of ignorance is scary. Supermarkets
prefer their customers to die. /Nice/.

Mental note to self: look up which supermarkets were involved, do not
shop there.

All.

The government announced it was going to allow food irradiation
without requiring labelling IIRC. This was mostly seen as a way
to make food which is past it's best saleable again (and it is
used for this purpose in some places) and resulted in a large
public outcry. All the supermarkets responded by stating they
wouldn't stock any irradiated food (I don't recall which did it
first, but they all followed), and the only way they can be sure
of this was to tell their suppliers that they wouldn't use any
suppliers which undertook any food irradiation.

A quick search on google would seem to imply there is only one
single license which has ever been awarded in the UK for a food
irradiation facility.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

.... and people who don't understand sig separators !

--
geoff

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:58:39 GMT, Rick wrote:


A device to do this has been made, and was published a few years back,
but the feeling was that the UK market was not ready for food treaded
in such a way.

There are lots of commercial food irradiation systems, and some are in
regular use. There are obvious public health benefits, especially in
developing countries, and massive political problems.

I belive a seach of New Scientest will find the article for you, but
it was a while ago, so it may be a different magazine.

Rick


I call it New Shrieker Magazine. What twaddle... a 'scientific'
version of Mother Jones. If you deleted the anti-US propaganda and the
stupid collages and the whitespace and the dinosaur stuff, there
wouldn't be anything left but ads. It's rare to find an issue that
doesn't mention George Bush half a dozen times.

When my renewal notice arrived, I wrote pretty much the above across
it and sent it back. The damned thing just keeps coming!


John

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:
... and people who don't understand sig separators !


And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

Dunno, works fine for me, even if the sig is just a TAD long??!

David

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:16:27 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:58:39 GMT, Rick wrote:


A device to do this has been made, and was published a few years back,
but the feeling was that the UK market was not ready for food treaded
in such a way.

There are lots of commercial food irradiation systems, and some are in
regular use. There are obvious public health benefits, especially in
developing countries, and massive political problems.

I belive a seach of New Scientest will find the article for you, but
it was a while ago, so it may be a different magazine.

Rick


I call it New Shrieker Magazine. What twaddle... a 'scientific'
version of Mother Jones. If you deleted the anti-US propaganda and the
stupid collages and the whitespace and the dinosaur stuff, there
wouldn't be anything left but ads. It's rare to find an issue that
doesn't mention George Bush half a dozen times.

When my renewal notice arrived, I wrote pretty much the above across
it and sent it back. The damned thing just keeps coming!


John

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and
coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't
stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented
advertising) against AARP".

And I will, too. That's how I permanently got off of Fingerhut's
mailing list ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:21:03 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:
... and people who don't understand sig separators !


And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

Dunno, works fine for me, even if the sig is just a TAD long??!

David

In case you haven't noticed, I'm in business, and I get a fair number
of responses from the sig, and from people surfing into my website.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:30:46 -0700,it is alleged that Jim Thompson
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and
coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't
stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented
advertising) against AARP".

And I will, too. That's how I permanently got off of Fingerhut's
mailing list ;-)

I wonder if there's a UK equivalent? I somehow doubt it, the volume of
snailmail spam we get here has become ludicrous, fully 1/3 of the
recycle bin is junk mail *every* week. I gave up sending it back in
their own prepaid envelopes because they're too stupid to get the
hint.


--
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what
the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be
replaced by something even more bizarrely inexeplicable. There is another
theory which states that this has already happened.

wrote in message
oups.com...
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

[..]

About 10 years ago, prior to their stock market flotation,
www.isotron.com/home.htm were being hailed by market brokers as the next
license to print money. Isotron's food irradiation technology was going to
be the enabling means for the big food providers to massively reduce wastage
and increase their profits.
Fortunately, just before flotation, the U.K. government took onboard the
advice of it's scientists and made food irradiation illegal. Isotron had to
quickly scramble into other areas.
Hasn't though stopped a number of scumbag operators who irradiate food
declared 'unfit for human consumption' and feed it back into our food chain.
Irradiation is particularly effective when used on rotting seafoods, (eg
Prawns). The usual process is to ship the stuff out to Holland (irradiation
is legal) irradiate it and then bring it back into UK.
Every couple of months a case come before the courts.

If irradiating is illegal, I still can't figure out (as an experiment) why a
punnet of Tesco's or Morrisons' 'fresh Strwaberries' can spend 3 weeks
outside in the garden and yet not rot.
regards
john

On 19 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0700, wrote:

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter?

No. At least you _could_, but not so it's edible afterwards.
You need gamma.

You're unlikely to get gamma sources that are usable in kitchens. For
one thing, a suitable gamma source and castle has a minimum weight of a
couple of tons - bit hard on the worktops!


There's also the issue of nutritional quality, and the legality of doing
this in the UK.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

Well his .sig is twice as long as is generally accepted, looks rubbish
with a proportional font, but the separator seems OK.


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
Clue ...

the name goes below it


--
geoff

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0700, wrote:

It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid,
with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting
fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no
run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers a
how much beta emission would be needed?
where can it be got from, if anywhere?
is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking


X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.


Jim,
I have heard references to gamma rays (makes sense) and electron beams
(doesn't make sense). There is a food store about 10 miles from me that
sells irradiated meat.

Tam

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

In article ,
"john jardine" writes:

wrote in message
oups.com...
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

[..]

About 10 years ago, prior to their stock market flotation,
www.isotron.com/home.htm were being hailed by market brokers as the next
license to print money. Isotron's food irradiation technology was going to
be the enabling means for the big food providers to massively reduce wastage
and increase their profits.
Fortunately, just before flotation, the U.K. government took onboard the
advice of it's scientists and made food irradiation illegal. Isotron had to

It's not illegal in the UK (see my other posting, although it
only went to uk.d-i-y).

quickly scramble into other areas.
Hasn't though stopped a number of scumbag operators who irradiate food
declared 'unfit for human consumption' and feed it back into our food chain.
Irradiation is particularly effective when used on rotting seafoods, (eg
Prawns). The usual process is to ship the stuff out to Holland (irradiation
is legal) irradiate it and then bring it back into UK.
Every couple of months a case come before the courts.

If irradiating is illegal, I still can't figure out (as an experiment) why a
punnet of Tesco's or Morrisons' 'fresh Strwaberries' can spend 3 weeks
outside in the garden and yet not rot.

They were packed with a piece of bubble wrap, filled
with slow release sulphur dioxide most likely.

I don't know about strawberries in particular, but irradiation
actually doesn't work on some soft fruits -- a few days later
they are a pile of mush. Cucumbers are an example.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0700, wrote:

It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

30 years ago it used to be gamma radiation - harder than X-rays.
My daughter, who had a serious blood disorder and had lost all her immunity
to bacteria, was fed on it for a few months. It was mainly used for items
like jam etc. which were normally served cold. Other food such as meat
stews and potatoes were considered sufficiently sterile by being boiled,
recently. Despite these precautions she still suffered from massive fungal
infections in her mouth and throat.

--
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:02:58 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
Clue ...

the name goes below it


Metaclue: you can do anything you want on usenet.

John

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:06:18 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT"
wrote:


I have heard references to gamma rays (makes sense) and electron beams
(doesn't make sense).

Very first Google hit...

http://www.ebeamservices.com/food_irradiation.htm


John

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and
coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't
stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented
advertising) against AARP".

Isn't it a felony to file a false report? To say nothing of the libel.

"Malcolm Stewart" wrote in
message ...
"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0700, wrote:

It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

30 years ago it used to be gamma radiation - harder than X-rays.

Sometimes. It depends on the gamma source.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:21:02 -0700, "Richard Henry"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
.. .

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and
coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't
stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented
advertising) against AARP".

Isn't it a felony to file a false report? To say nothing of the libel.



That's not a false report. It is MY personal decision to decide what
is sexually explicit. Besides, doesn't AARP stand for American
Association of Retired Pussies ?:-)

(And a Form 1500 applies ONLY to MY receipt... forces them to remove
me from their mailing list.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:02:58 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
Clue ...

the name goes below it

Does not. Oh Clueless One, I leave my name only (without the sig
stuff) behind to identify that it was I doing the talking. How many
posts do you see where you have no clue as to who said what?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:59:24 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

Well his .sig is twice as long as is generally accepted, looks rubbish
with a proportional font, but the separator seems OK.

Do Internet-savvy people use a proportional font in their newsreader
?:-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

wrote in message
oups.com...
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid,
with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting
fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no
run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers a
how much beta emission would be needed?
where can it be got from, if anywhere?
is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking


X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.

Thanks, NT

Wouldn't it be so much simpler to put the food in air-tight bags, then
micro-wave them? Micro-waves will heat the food to the point of killing the
germans (sorry, germs), then the air-tight bag will stop anything else
getting in to the food. Sterile enough or what?

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:05:49 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


wrote in message
roups.com...
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid,
with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting
fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no
run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers a
how much beta emission would be needed?
where can it be got from, if anywhere?
is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking


X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.

Thanks, NT

Wouldn't it be so much simpler to put the food in air-tight bags, then
micro-wave them? Micro-waves will heat the food to the point of killing the
germans (sorry, germs), then the air-tight bag will stop anything else
getting in to the food. Sterile enough or what?


Suppose I want a fresh, uncooked, tomato?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:05:49 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

snipped

Wouldn't it be so much simpler to put the food in air-tight bags, then
micro-wave them? Micro-waves will heat the food to the point of killing
the
germans (sorry, germs), then the air-tight bag will stop anything else
getting in to the food. Sterile enough or what?


Suppose I want a fresh, uncooked, tomato?

Then don't micro-wave it for so long. Most people here are talking about
"irradiating" the food, when all this really means, in the real world
anyway, is running it through a micro-wave oven for a minute or two. The
only thing that really gets "irradiated" to sterilise it, is fruit fly
larvae. But that a different type of sterilisation all together. :-)

The claim that irradiation doesn't change the taste of the food may be
a bit optimistic.

IIRR enough irradiation to kill all the bugs was enough to give a
detectable change in flavour, but I can't remember where I saw that
particular claim.

-----------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

"New Scientist" is a British based popular science weekly. They do get
the science right, but insist of presenting it in an "entertaining"
way.

Their politics isn't right wing enough for the likes of John Larkin and
Jim Thompson, but the "New Scientist" is a British (and Australian)
based weekly - moving far enough to the right to pick up the right-wing
American market would alienate most of their domestic buyers (like me).

For pro-Dubbya propagada you want something title "Old Fundamentalist".

---------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

The Soviets had a grain steriliser which (as I recall) fitted on the back of
a lorry. A pretty large gamma source, presumably Cs 137 or Co 60. I guess it
was used to kill moulds, which are pretty hard to kill, but also pretty
unpleasant. The sort of source, though, that should be kept under pretty
close control (certainly not in everyone's kitchen) given the experience in
Brazil, Mexico, where hospital cancer treatment sources ended up being
broken up in scrapyards (to the detriment of people exposed to the bits).

No comment on the "loony greenie" view on irradiation of foods, but if they
ever have an injection or other invasive procedure from their GP or in
hospital the needle, catheter, or whatever will almost certainly have been
sterilised by gamma.

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
Clue ...

the name goes below it

Does not. Oh Clueless One, I leave my name only (without the sig
stuff) behind to identify that it was I doing the talking. How many
posts do you see where you have no clue as to who said what?

Mine get nested, and if correctly posted and properly snipped it's
usually obvious

And a 3 line sig is normally what's reasonable

m'kay ?

--
geoff

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:59:24 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

Well his .sig is twice as long as is generally accepted,

Generally accepted by whom? And what happens to a sig that's not
generally accepted?

Next, I suppose you'll be lecturing us on "good engineering practice."

John

In message , John Larkin
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:02:58 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
Clue ...

the name goes below it


Metaclue: you can do anything you want on usenet.

You can, but you can also get flamed for doing so

--
geoff

In message .com,
writes
"New Scientist" is a British based popular science weekly. They do get
the science right, but insist of presenting it in an "entertaining"
way.

Seconded

It's there to give a broad idea of what's going on, not a forum for
scientific papers.

Their politics isn't right wing enough for the likes of John Larkin and
Jim Thompson, but the "New Scientist" is a British (and Australian)
based weekly - moving far enough to the right to pick up the right-wing
American market would alienate most of their domestic buyers (like me).

For pro-Dubbya propagada you want something title "Old Fundamentalist".


--
Geoff or something