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  #41   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Dave Fawthrop
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:25:51 +0000 (GMT), Tony Williams
wrote:

|In article ,
| Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| We installed our Double Glazing over several years as money
| became available.
|
| I don't have the skill, (or the bottle), to install
| new windows, especially in this house.

We paid for it, but got the discount as if we had done it all at the same
time. Still horrendously expensive :-(
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net
For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/
  #42   Report Post  
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Christian McArdle
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

Local conservation officer has stated that he is looking for timber
windows. Given the sash style upvc ones that are available can he
insist on this as I am looking for low maintenance.


If you stuck a non-timber window in a conservation area near me, I'd be on
to you like a sack of bricks.

Do it properly. Decent timber windows are lower maintenance overall than
uPVC anyway. OK, you should repaint them every five years. Do this and they
will last centuries. uPVC is often ********ed up within 10 or 20 years and
then needs total replacement.

I doubt if anyone would be able to tell the difference.


I can, as can anyone who like traditionally constructed buildings. If you
don't like nice buildings, don't buy in a conservation area, but get a
characterless hutch on a new estate. Please don't ruin conservation areas
for the people who care enough to live in one.

Christian.


  #43   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Christian McArdle
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

The vast majority of people viewing a house on seeing wooden windows would
adjust their offer to compensate for the fact that they would be replacing
all the windows.


Maybe on an estate. In my area, plastic windows knock 10 grand off over
original sashes in good condition.

Christian.


  #44   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:56:59 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:



Why "quite rightly"?

These people are jobsworths who abuse their position and restrict the
freedom of the very people who pay their salaries.

This is not to say that there does not need to be sensible planning
control to prevent monstrosities, but quite often these people in
planning departments exceed the intent of the legislation and behave
arbitrarily.

It would be worth the investment to put them through the wringer on
the hope that they are slapped down.


Are you going to do it, Andy?


This one isn't likely to affect me since I don't live in a
conservation area.


You could take up arms on behalf of the lady if you felt so strongly about
it.


However, in the past, I have successfully mounted a campaign against
the abuse of power by a planning department regarding building of an
unsuitably located access road to a sports stadium in a park owned by
said council.


I've done something similar but it's not the same thing at all as the case
under discussion. Many of thesedevelopments are ultimately passed by
national government. They're certainly often oiled by money. They can still
be opposed and changed but they're not planned by local government officers.

....

So it is possible to stop this ridiculous abuse of power. It's a
matter of having the will and presenting the case properly.
Also, a way for the jobsworths to save face is helpful.


Has it ever occurred to you that some people might be calling YOU a
'jobsworth'? It all depends on where you're standing.

Considering the case of the lady in Oxfordshire, while I don't
particularly like the thought of genuine heritage items being replaced
with crap, she did so with something that was convincing enough for TV
use so can't have been a total monstrosity.


Oh well, if it's OK for TV it MUST be good!

Look, she chose to live in a conservation area, she must have known and
accepted the restrictions. If she had polio she hasn't recently contracted
it.

Given that replacement with a lighter door allows her to maintain her
independence in her house (not anybody else's house), I think that
this should over-ride the conservation issue.


No, there were, according to the report, other issues than a lightweight
door.

The council didn't *have* to make an issue out of it, but could have
acted with common sense and a degree of compassion.


And done the same for all the other abuses in the area? A line has to be
drawn - and kept to.

A sensible solution would have been for the original door to have been
stored somewhere to be reinstalled at some date in the future when she
no longer needs the house.

It seems that the magistrate probably agreed, since the fine was only
£300.


Or it could be because there are pre-determined penalites for offences ...

I don't live in a conservation area but one starts at the other side of the
street and I've been very pleased that restrictions have been enforced in
that area otherwise we'd now be overlooked by a very high building and no
trees.

I firmly believe that, on the whole, planning is going the right way.
Nothing will ever be perfect and some individuals might not like
restrictions but they have a choice, they can move to a nice new estate.

Mary


  #45   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.


"Tony Williams" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave Fawthrop wrote:

But the almost perfect draughtproofing on ours compares very well
with the less than perfect version it replaced. Must save a as
much money as the windows themselves.


I would agree. We had 14 1970-ish steel windows replaced
with d-g, at a fearsome cost. The improvement in morning
comfort is remarkable though...... we don't even know now
how cold it is outside until we open the front door. And
no more condensation on the insides every cold morning.


Yes, the comfort factor is the best benefit of dg. It's not just lack of
draughts through gaps, it's the lack of downflow of cold air from the
windows.

Mary

--
Tony Williams.





  #46   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Tony Bryer
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:52:36 -0000 Christian McArdle wrote :
Please don't ruin conservation areas
for the people who care enough to live in one.


Some of us have had CA status foisted on us - last December in my
case. No one asked me whether I wanted this. Fortunately my
neighbour is a planning officer in another borough and got wind that
it was happening. Her response: would I cut down the big tree in my
garden that overshadowed hers, since once the CA came in I wouldn't
be able to do this without council permission which probably
wouldn't be forthcoming. I liked the tree but could see her point so
down the tree came. But the truth is I no longer own my garden the
council does.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.12 released 8 Dec 2005]


  #47   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...
The vast majority of people viewing a house on seeing wooden windows
would
adjust their offer to compensate for the fact that they would be
replacing
all the windows.


Maybe on an estate. In my area, plastic windows knock 10 grand off over
original sashes in good condition.


I wouldn't buy a house with them at any price.

Mary

Christian.




  #48   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.


"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:52:36 -0000 Christian McArdle wrote :
Please don't ruin conservation areas
for the people who care enough to live in one.


Some of us have had CA status foisted on us - last December in my
case. No one asked me whether I wanted this. Fortunately my
neighbour is a planning officer in another borough and got wind that
it was happening. Her response: would I cut down the big tree in my
garden that overshadowed hers,


Why didn't she ask before? It didn't spring up overnight.

since once the CA came in I wouldn't
be able to do this without council permission which probably
wouldn't be forthcoming. I liked the tree but could see her point so
down the tree came. But the truth is I no longer own my garden the
council does.



  #49   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Tony Bryer
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:59:01 -0000 Mary Fisher wrote :
Why didn't she ask before? It didn't spring up overnight.


No, I planted it myself 25 years ago. But the forthcoming CA
designation made removing it a now or never matter. Likewise my
neighbour knocked his front wall down to make the front garden a
forecourt for parking: he couldn't take the risk of this being
disallowed in the future.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.12 released 8 Dec 2005]


  #50   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Andy Hall
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:55:59 -0000, "Peter Crosland"
wrote:

It a long running saga that has been reported at length in The Tines and
elsewhere. A Google search will reveal more. In essence her argument is
that
she should not have to obey the law relating to listed buildings. She has
put up all sorts of arguments none of which stand up to even cursory
scrutiny. An absolute classic case of pig headed stupidity all too common
in
planning disputes where the building owner thinks they are above the law.
Almost without exception it ends up with them losing and with a large
bill.
Why do they do it?


The lady has had polio and is in a wheelchair, Peter.


I am well aware of that.

She should not be put into a position of being unable to use her home.


Her disability is no excuse for breaking the law.

Peter Crosland



Not it isn't.

However there is also such a thing as common sense and of right and
wrong.

In this case, the right thing to do would have been not to have
applied the law and prosecute the lady.

I'll give you another example in the news today. The BBC news site is
carrying an article that the volunteers from a charitable organisation
involved in the attempted rescue of the Thames whale received parking
tickets for £300 from jobsworths employed by TFL.

I was just about to contact them and offer to pay their tickets but
just read on the charity's web site that somebody with a sense of
decency at Westminster City Council has offered to cancel them.
I'm going to send them a donation anyway

That is the difference between stupid and inappropriate application of
law by public sector employees and doing the right thing.


--

..andy



  #51   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Andy Hall
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:44:49 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:



You could take up arms on behalf of the lady if you felt so strongly about
it.


I think that she can probably manage, but I may well drop her an
email.



So it is possible to stop this ridiculous abuse of power. It's a
matter of having the will and presenting the case properly.
Also, a way for the jobsworths to save face is helpful.


Has it ever occurred to you that some people might be calling YOU a
'jobsworth'? It all depends on where you're standing.


Possibly. i think more in terms of "who is the customer here?" Who
is paying these people's salaries?




The council didn't *have* to make an issue out of it, but could have
acted with common sense and a degree of compassion.


And done the same for all the other abuses in the area? A line has to be
drawn - and kept to.


How many people do you know with post Polio syndrome who spend most of
their time in a wheelchair? I now know two.




I firmly believe that, on the whole, planning is going the right way.
Nothing will ever be perfect and some individuals might not like
restrictions but they have a choice, they can move to a nice new estate.


I think that it presents too much of an opportunity for abuse of power
by unelected, faceless public sector employees.


--

..andy

  #52   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Andy Hall
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:18:08 -0000, "Peter Crosland"
wrote:

The planners can make it a condition if they wish. You then have the
right of appeal to an independent inspector. Mind you that will
probably
be rejected.


But worth doing, just to upset them!


Not half as much as it will upset the appellant if the appeal fails and
the
council, quite rightly, ask costs and get them!

Peter Crosland


Why "quite rightly"?


Because people who make appeals that are without foundation cost the Council
money to deal with. Why should the costs of their stupitity fall on
taxpayers generally?

These people are jobsworths who abuse their position and restrict the
freedom of the very people who pay their salaries.


You clearly don't understand the planning and listed building system in
general, and this case in particular.


I understand it completely, thank you.


The woman had unauthorised work done
to a listed building. That is a matter of record.


and not one that I disputed.

Doing, or allowing, such
work top be dome is a criminal offence and nothing to do with the planners
directly. Enforcement and prosecution are a matter for the Council's legal
department not the planners. In the case in point the woman had a number of
opportunities to rectify matters but chose not to do so.


For a very good reason.


The decision to
prosecute was taken after consideration by the Council. In the face of
refusal to comply with the law they had little choice but to do so. All the
costs fell on the culprit rather than on other Council tax payers.


There is always a choice about whether to apply the law.

This one is very clearly inappropriate.





This is not to say that there does not need to be sensible planning
control to prevent monstrosities, but quite often these people in
planning departments exceed the intent of the legislation and behave
arbitrarily.


There is no evidence whatsoever that they behaved in anything but the
correct manner.


Correct according to their understanding of the law as it applies to
their narrow minded and bureaucratic little world.

In terms of whether it was the right thing to do, the answer is an
unequivocal no.





--

..andy

  #53   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Andy Hall
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 00:12:28 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Peter
Crosland writes
It a long running saga that has been reported at length in The Tines and
elsewhere. A Google search will reveal more. In essence her argument is
that
she should not have to obey the law relating to listed buildings. She has
put up all sorts of arguments none of which stand up to even cursory
scrutiny. An absolute classic case of pig headed stupidity all too common
in
planning disputes where the building owner thinks they are above the law.
Almost without exception it ends up with them losing and with a large
bill.
Why do they do it?


The lady has had polio and is in a wheelchair, Peter.


I am well aware of that.

She should not be put into a position of being unable to use her home.


Her disability is no excuse for breaking the law.

Maybe one has to ask who and what the law's there to protect ?



Quite.


--

..andy

  #54   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Broadback
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

Andy Hall wrote:
Snip
This is not to say that there does not need to be sensible planning
control to prevent monstrosities, but quite often these people in
planning departments exceed the intent of the legislation and behave
arbitrarily.

If only that was true Andy, the worst monstrosities are buildings
erected since planning laws came in just after WW2. What it really needs
is planning permission being separated from the Council, who themselves
build whatever they like wherever they like.

--
Please do not reply to this Email address
All Emails are deleted upon receipt.
  #55   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Andy Hall
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:24:47 +0000, Broadback
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
Snip
This is not to say that there does not need to be sensible planning
control to prevent monstrosities, but quite often these people in
planning departments exceed the intent of the legislation and behave
arbitrarily.

If only that was true Andy, the worst monstrosities are buildings
erected since planning laws came in just after WW2. What it really needs
is planning permission being separated from the Council, who themselves
build whatever they like wherever they like.



That would be an even better solution. In another post on this
thread, I described an experience where they tried to do just that and
were forced to back down.




--

..andy



  #56   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
 
Posts: n/a
Default upvc windows in conservation area.


Christian McArdle wrote:
Local conservation officer has stated that he is looking for timber
windows. Given the sash style upvc ones that are available can he
insist on this as I am looking for low maintenance.


If you stuck a non-timber window in a conservation area near me, I'd be on
to you like a sack of bricks.


That doesn't alter the fact that the OP is perfectly entitled to
install upvc windows if that is what they desire.

If you approached me with that attitude, if I decided I wanted to
replace my wooden windows with upvc, you'd get an earful of abuse at
the very least.

My house belongs to me and if I decide to make relatively minor
alterations to it, then I will. If you don't like upvc, that's your
problem, not mine.

Do it properly. Decent timber windows are lower maintenance overall than
uPVC anyway.


That sentence and the next are mutually exclusive.

OK, you should repaint them every five years.


I've got both and the wooden windows need far more maintenance than the
upvc.

Do this and they
will last centuries. uPVC is often ********ed up within 10 or 20 years and
then needs total replacement.


Mine are 15 years old and work just as well as they did when they were
installed

I doubt if anyone would be able to tell the difference.


I can, as can anyone who like traditionally constructed buildings. If you
don't like nice buildings, don't buy in a conservation area, but get a
characterless hutch on a new estate.


Don't be so patronising. I didn't decide to buy in a conservation area,
the village I live in became one after I moved in. Oddly enough, my
house is the 1800s equivalent of a "characterless hutch", a two-up,
two-down semi built from the cheapest materials available (bricks from
local clay). If upvc windows had been available then they wouldn't have
been used, not because they "don't fit" but because they would have
been far more expensive than wooden windows from local materials.

Please don't ruin conservation areas
for the people who care enough to live in one.


If a house with upvc windows "ruins" a conservation area for you, then
you're far too sensitive for this life.

Cheers,

John

  #57   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
 
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legin wrote:
Hi all, looking to put new windows in a new build that is in a recently
designated conser vation area. Local conservation officer has stated
that he is looking for timber windows. Given the sash style upvc ones
that are available can he insist on this as I am looking for low
maintenance. I doubt if anyone would be able to tell the difference
unless they got close up. Annoying factor is that only one of the
neighbouring six houses has the original timber windows. 4 are upvc and
one is aluminium.

Any views greately appreciated


Unless the situation has changed in the last 15 years, he can ask for
whatever he likes but you are under no obligation to do as he requests
unless your house is listed or within the curtilage of a listed
building or has some sort of condition imposed on it by previous
planning consents etc.

Merely being in a conservation area does not prevent upvc windows being
installed.

I went through this 15 years ago.

Cheers,

John

  #58   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Chris Bacon
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

john1_anderton wrote:
Christian McArdle wrote:
If you stuck a non-timber window in a conservation area near me, I'd be on
to you like a sack of bricks.


That doesn't alter the fact that the OP is perfectly entitled to
install upvc windows if that is what they desire.


If planning/BC/listed building restrictions say otherwise, how
can what you say be true?

Also - it seems that replacement of uPVC windows in a listed
building needs approval - but what about in a conservation area?
  #59   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
 
Posts: n/a
Default upvc windows in conservation area.


wrote:
Christian McArdle wrote:
Local conservation officer has stated that he is looking for timber
windows. Given the sash style upvc ones that are available can he
insist on this as I am looking for low maintenance.


If you stuck a non-timber window in a conservation area near me, I'd be on
to you like a sack of bricks.


That doesn't alter the fact that the OP is perfectly entitled to
install upvc windows if that is what they desire.

If you approached me with that attitude, if I decided I wanted to
replace my wooden windows with upvc, you'd get an earful of abuse at
the very least.

My house belongs to me and if I decide to make relatively minor
alterations to it, then I will. If you don't like upvc, that's your
problem, not mine.

Do it properly. Decent timber windows are lower maintenance overall than
uPVC anyway.


That sentence and the next are mutually exclusive.

OK, you should repaint them every five years.


I've got both and the wooden windows need far more maintenance than the
upvc.

Do this and they
will last centuries. uPVC is often ********ed up within 10 or 20 years and
then needs total replacement.


Mine are 15 years old and work just as well as they did when they were
installed

I doubt if anyone would be able to tell the difference.


I can, as can anyone who like traditionally constructed buildings. If you
don't like nice buildings, don't buy in a conservation area, but get a
characterless hutch on a new estate.


Don't be so patronising. I didn't decide to buy in a conservation area,
the village I live in became one after I moved in. Oddly enough, my
house is the 1800s equivalent of a "characterless hutch", a two-up,
two-down semi built from the cheapest materials available (bricks from
local clay).


Obviously excellent materials and construction as the house is 100 to
200 years old and still viable.

If upvc windows had been available then they wouldn't have
been used, not because they "don't fit" but because they would have
been far more expensive than wooden windows from local materials.

The whole point of plastic is it is so cheap initially, but not in the
long run. They wouldn't have used it because standards of building
construction were often so much higher in19th and sometimes 18
centuries. The sheer quality if so much ordinary Victorian and Georgian
building is staggering compared to modern crap; you get top class
joinery from the best materials and craftmanship, beautiful glass,
Minton tiles, hand made bricks, cast iron ironmongery etc etc all taken
for granted, resulting in buildings which last for 100s of years, and
which anybody with a brain cell today should recognise as being worth
preserving.
Funny thing is the ****s do recognise the quality of old buildings when
they are gathered together in a picturesque Cotswold village or a
Georgian town centre, but can't see it when it's in front of them
across an ordinary road.

Please don't ruin conservation areas
for the people who care enough to live in one.


If a house with upvc windows "ruins" a conservation area for you, then
you're far too sensitive for this life.


More conservation the better - we should resist the tide of cheapo
tawdry crap which so many people accept as normal, and which is so
expensive in the long run.

cheers

Jacob

  #60   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Tony Bryer
 
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:37:49 +0000 Chris Bacon wrote :
Also - it seems that replacement of uPVC windows in a listed
building needs approval - but what about in a conservation area?


In principle it doesn't (on a single family house) - it's permitted
development, but Councils can take away PD rights with an Article 4
direction and often do in CA's.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.12 released 8 Dec 2005]




  #61   Report Post  
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legin
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

I seem to have stirred up some interesting responses. Thanks to all for
the replies. To clarify the area has only recently been designated a
conservation area. The houses vary from 60's built in one area to turn
of the century in another. There is a complete mixture of styles from
brick built or rendered houses to brick built or rendered bungalows all
with a mixture of timber or plastic windows. The roofing materials
vary from modern pantiles to rosemary tiles to slate and to artificial
slate. Planning permission was granted and no conditions have been
imposed regarding plastic windows. The shell of the house has been
built and particular attention has been given to stone cills and heads
towards the front elevation. Corbelled brick detail and traditional
slate. I have used rise and fall brackets so there are no fascias to
paint and have built, what I believe, is a very low maintenance and in
keeping traditional house. I know that this sounds contradictory but I
despise the thought of having to repaint timber windows. My earliest
memories are of terrible draughty uncomfortable howling windows! I am
not trying to cheapen the situation either. I have sourced some very
authentic sash windows that are quality made using white u.p.v.c., and
they are not cheap. I recently met with the conservation chappy to
finalise the corbelling detail. At this meeting he expressed his
dislike for plastic windows. My first meeting with him he agreed to
them on the basis that they were prolific within the area, bit of a
trade of to me agreeing slate as oposed to rosemary tiles. What really
narks me is that at least three houses within the area have changed the
windows to plastic since it became a conservation area, seemingly
unchallenged. Is it just an opinion or enforceable? I intend to ask
someone from planning to approve in writing the final details as i did
with the bricks and slates. Just wanted to gather as much info to
prepare myself. Thanks all.

Regards

  #62   Report Post  
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Tony Bryer
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On 23 Jan 2006 09:58:21 -0800 wrote :
More conservation the better - we should resist the tide of cheapo
tawdry crap which so many people accept as normal, and which is so
expensive in the long run.


This depends on whether you believe that people should be free to
make their own choices or not.

The trouble with conservation policies is that they impose costs on
society which go unseen. To give one small example, my church is in a
CA and has 150 year old buildings which are far from ideal and no
amount of money will do more than lessen their shortcomings. If we
were free to knock down most of what we have an rebuild, we could
have a building that would be providing first class facilities for
community activities all week long. But our planners would fight
tooth and nail to stop this happening: the people who would benefit
from such a community resource just don't matter. The minority who
get up the petitions do.

Remember the promise of the neutron bomb: destroy people and leave
the buildings standing. It seems to be the philosophy of many
planning officers.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.12 released 8 Dec 2005]


  #63   Report Post  
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Chris Bacon
 
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Tony Bryer wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:37:49 +0000 Chris Bacon wrote :

Also - it seems that replacement of uPVC windows in a listed
building needs approval - but what about in a conservation area?



In principle it doesn't (on a single family house) - it's permitted
development, but Councils can take away PD rights with an Article 4
direction and often do in CA's.


Cripes! So if you've got uPVC then you're stuck with it. Not
what I'd expected.

  #64   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...


How many people do you know with post Polio syndrome who spend most of
their time in a wheelchair? I now know two.


Lots, actually, since I've been involved for many years with PHAB -
Physically Handicapped and Able Bodied.

What's your point?

Mary


  #65   Report Post  
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Mary Fisher
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...



In the case in point the woman had a number of
opportunities to rectify matters but chose not to do so.


For a very good reason.


Which was?


The decision to
prosecute was taken after consideration by the Council. In the face of
refusal to comply with the law they had little choice but to do so. All
the
costs fell on the culprit rather than on other Council tax payers.


There is always a choice about whether to apply the law.

This one is very clearly inappropriate.


That's a subjective view.

Mary




  #66   Report Post  
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Mary Fisher
 
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"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:59:01 -0000 Mary Fisher wrote :
Why didn't she ask before? It didn't spring up overnight.


No, I planted it myself 25 years ago


My point was that if it was a problem for her she could have approached you
before.

But the forthcoming CA
designation made removing it a now or never matter.


But it hadn't been a problem before ... apparently.

Mary


  #67   Report Post  
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Peter Crosland
 
Posts: n/a
Default upvc windows in conservation area.

In the case in point the woman had a number of
opportunities to rectify matters but chose not to do so.


For a very good reason.


Which was?


The decision to
prosecute was taken after consideration by the Council. In the face of
refusal to comply with the law they had little choice but to do so. All
the
costs fell on the culprit rather than on other Council tax payers.


There is always a choice about whether to apply the law.

This one is very clearly inappropriate.


That's a subjective view.



He really has no idea Mary. The fact is that all he has no rational argument
to put but just sheer bigotry. Best ignore him. Even better kill file him!

Peter Crosland


  #68   Report Post  
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Mary Fisher
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.


"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On 23 Jan 2006 09:58:21 -0800 wrote :
More conservation the better - we should resist the tide of cheapo
tawdry crap which so many people accept as normal, and which is so
expensive in the long run.


This depends on whether you believe that people should be free to
make their own choices or not.

The trouble with conservation policies is that they impose costs on
society which go unseen. To give one small example, my church is in a
CA and has 150 year old buildings which are far from ideal and no
amount of money will do more than lessen their shortcomings. If we
were free to knock down most of what we have an rebuild, we could
have a building that would be providing first class facilities for
community activities all week long.


The church could be adapted without costing a huge amount and without
spoiling its (OK probably to our tastes horrid Victorian Gothic) character.
It's been done a lot. If there was a local will for community activities
that would have happened already.

I've been involved in community activities and even fought for - and won -
community centres and playgrounds. Sadly, it's too much bother for people to
use them, they prefer to watch telly or play in the street rather than walk
a couple of hundred yards so all our work has and public money been wasted.

But our planners would fight
tooth and nail to stop this happening: the people who would benefit
from such a community resource just don't matter. The minority who
get up the petitions do.


If there was a huge demand there would be even more powerful petitions to
overcome the protestors'.

Mary


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Mary Fisher
 
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"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...



He really has no idea Mary. The fact is that all he has no rational
argument to put but just sheer bigotry. Best ignore him. Even better kill
file him!


No, because I like Andy in some ways. Everyone has a blind spot.

Except me of course... :-)

Mary


  #70   Report Post  
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Capitol
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.



Peter Crosland wrote:
It a long running saga that has been reported at length in The Tines and
elsewhere. A Google search will reveal more. In essence her argument is
that
she should not have to obey the law relating to listed buildings. She has
put up all sorts of arguments none of which stand up to even cursory
scrutiny. An absolute classic case of pig headed stupidity all too common
in
planning disputes where the building owner thinks they are above the law.
Almost without exception it ends up with them losing and with a large
bill.
Why do they do it?


The lady has had polio and is in a wheelchair, Peter.



I am well aware of that.


She should not be put into a position of being unable to use her home.



Her disability is no excuse for breaking the law.


When the law is an ass, her duty is to break it. That's how laws get
changed to resemble common sense. As I see it, the local council is
infringing on her human rights. Maybe that's the next step. As has been
said in the past, "I don't agree with your views(home) but I defend
your right to have those views and to live as you please in your own home"

Regards
Capitol


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Capitol
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.



Peter Crosland wrote:

She might find that once in jail, her front door was even more
difficult to open!

This article is typical journalistic hyperbole, it has more holes in it
that net curtains.


The only thing full of holes is the argument that the defendant put put
up.


Her reported argument is what I meant. We don't KNOW that it was actually
the case. Do we? It certainly doesn't make sense.

Mary


The bottom line is she will end up in prison with a far bigger bill than
if she had the sense to obey the law.



It a long running saga that has been reported at length in The Tines and
elsewhere. A Google search will reveal more. In essence her argument is that
she should not have to obey the law relating to listed buildings. She has
put up all sorts of arguments none of which stand up to even cursory
scrutiny. An absolute classic case of pig headed stupidity all too common in
planning disputes where the building owner thinks they are above the law.
Almost without exception it ends up with them losing and with a large bill.
Why do they do it?


If she had simply contacted The Sun instead of The Times, the local
council would probably have been leaned upon by Nu Labur to ensure that
commonsense was used.

Regards
Capitol
  #72   Report Post  
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John Anderton
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:06:13 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

Tony Bryer wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:37:49 +0000 Chris Bacon wrote :

Also - it seems that replacement of uPVC windows in a listed
building needs approval - but what about in a conservation area?



In principle it doesn't (on a single family house) - it's permitted
development, but Councils can take away PD rights with an Article 4
direction and often do in CA's.


Cripes! So if you've got uPVC then you're stuck with it. Not
what I'd expected.


Oh, it can be worse than that !

I have conditions on my house which specify that I can't:

Paint my wooden windows any colour but off-white
Change any window or external door (so no upvc-wood or vice-versa)
Put up a garden shed, garage, summerhouse or greenhouse

Without consent from the council :-(

Cheers,

John
  #73   Report Post  
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Capitol
 
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Peter Crosland wrote:

Even better kill file him!

The last resort of a scoundrel? LOL

Regards
Capitol
  #74   Report Post  
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chris French
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

In message , Mary Fisher
writes

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:59:01 -0000 Mary Fisher wrote :
Why didn't she ask before? It didn't spring up overnight.


No, I planted it myself 25 years ago


My point was that if it was a problem for her she could have approached you
before.

But the forthcoming CA
designation made removing it a now or never matter.


But it hadn't been a problem before ... apparently.

but maybe it was something which would become more of a problem in the
future (as in getting bigger) and the CA status proposal stirred her
into action.
--
Chris French

  #75   Report Post  
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John Anderton
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On 23 Jan 2006 09:58:21 -0800, wrote:


wrote:
Oddly enough, my
house is the 1800s equivalent of a "characterless hutch", a two-up,
two-down semi built from the cheapest materials available (bricks from
local clay).


Obviously excellent materials and construction as the house is 100 to
200 years old and still viable.


My point was that this is exactly the same materials (bricks and
timber) used for the modern "characterless hutches" for the same
reasons (cost). My house is still standing and is deemed worthy of
conservation but is really no different (apart from age) from the
hutches the earlier poster was denigrating.

If upvc windows had been available then they wouldn't have
been used, not because they "don't fit" but because they would have
been far more expensive than wooden windows from local materials.


The whole point of plastic is it is so cheap initially, but not in the
long run. They wouldn't have used it because standards of building
construction were often so much higher in19th and sometimes 18
centuries.


But not in my house. It's a dirt cheap house built against an existing
dwelling by the occupier for one of his sons. The roof timbers are
inadequate by modern standards, the foundations are six inches deep
and the only reason the walls don't fall over is because they are only
eleven feet high (for two stories) but two feet thick.

Quality, it's not.

The sheer quality if so much ordinary Victorian and Georgian
building is staggering compared to modern crap; you get top class
joinery from the best materials and craftmanship, beautiful glass,
Minton tiles, hand made bricks, cast iron ironmongery etc etc all taken
for granted, resulting in buildings which last for 100s of years, and
which anybody with a brain cell today should recognise as being worth
preserving.


Well yes, but on the other hand, there are villages like, for example,
Corfe Castle in Dorset. Most of the houses there were built from
rubble (literally) and were/are damp, dark hovels, most of which are
now listed.

Funny thing is the ****s do recognise the quality of old buildings when
they are gathered together in a picturesque Cotswold village or a
Georgian town centre, but can't see it when it's in front of them
across an ordinary road.

Please don't ruin conservation areas
for the people who care enough to live in one.


If a house with upvc windows "ruins" a conservation area for you, then
you're far too sensitive for this life.


More conservation the better - we should resist the tide of cheapo
tawdry crap which so many people accept as normal, and which is so
expensive in the long run.

I agree we should build quality homes but don't agree that a
plastic-coated steel window and frame is low-quality,

Cheers,

John


  #76   Report Post  
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Capitol
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.



Ian Stirling wrote:

wrote:
snip

Plastic windows are also an environmental disaster - not only spoiling
the built environment but also using oil reserves and creating a waste
disposal problem due to being unrecycleable and short life.
The more conservation areas the better for all of us!



To drag this off on a tangent (or allow it to fly free).

If your carpenter and installers are living in a modern society, then
they are also using oil to get to work every day, to grow their food,
...

You can't simply say "wood and lime good, cement and UPVC bad".

Yes, wood and lime may use less energy to produce than UPVC and cement.
But if they take more people to install, and those people use more
resources when installing them, it's a net loss.

Per capita UK emissions of CO2 are about 2500Kg.

I'd really like to see some numbers broken down accurately by building
type.

However.
Use cement, and build rigidly, and you've pretty much got to build on a
rigid structure, meaning hugely extensive foundations.

Use lime, and allow the building to flex, and you can reduce these.

The 'right' way to solve this I suspect is prizes.

Set goals, which might be CO2 emission, operating cost, price,
... for a house.

Scrap _all_ building/fire/planning regulations for these, and instead rely
on a detailed engineering survey to ensure they meet the spirit of the regs.
Rewrite the regs if required.

Award a prize for the 'best' house of several million.


Not an acceptable proposal, too close to common sense. Doesn't employ
enough civil servants.

Regards
Capitol

  #77   Report Post  
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John Anderton
 
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Default upvc windows in conservation area.

On 23 Jan 2006 10:32:36 -0800, "legin"
wrote:

I seem to have stirred up some interesting responses.


Just don't mention Leylandii :-)

Thanks to all for
the replies. To clarify the area has only recently been designated a
conservation area. The houses vary from 60's built in one area to turn
of the century in another. There is a complete mixture of styles from
brick built or rendered houses to brick built or rendered bungalows all
with a mixture of timber or plastic windows. The roofing materials
vary from modern pantiles to rosemary tiles to slate and to artificial
slate.


Planning permission was granted and no conditions have been
imposed regarding plastic windows.


The shell of the house has been
built and particular attention has been given to stone cills and heads
towards the front elevation. Corbelled brick detail and traditional
slate. I have used rise and fall brackets so there are no fascias to
paint and have built, what I believe, is a very low maintenance and in
keeping traditional house. I know that this sounds contradictory but I
despise the thought of having to repaint timber windows. My earliest
memories are of terrible draughty uncomfortable howling windows! I am
not trying to cheapen the situation either. I have sourced some very
authentic sash windows that are quality made using white u.p.v.c., and
they are not cheap. I recently met with the conservation chappy to
finalise the corbelling detail. At this meeting he expressed his
dislike for plastic windows. My first meeting with him he agreed to
them on the basis that they were prolific within the area, bit of a
trade of to me agreeing slate as oposed to rosemary tiles. What really
narks me is that at least three houses within the area have changed the
windows to plastic since it became a conservation area, seemingly
unchallenged. Is it just an opinion or enforceable?


It depends. As I read your post and got to "Planning permission was
granted and no conditions have been imposed regarding plastic
windows.", I thought "Aha, they're in the clear" but your paragraph
below may indicate otherwise.

I intend to ask
someone from planning to approve in writing the final details as i did
with the bricks and slates. Just wanted to gather as much info to
prepare myself. Thanks all.


Does the consent mention something along the lines of "All materials
must be approved by the planning department" (which would include
windows) or is it more specific "All bricks and slates must be
approved" ?

If the latter, you're OK, if the former, you'll have to persuade the
relevant planner that upvc is appropriate. This is by no means
impossible, some planners are very reasonable people and would
hopefully be open to the argument that upvc is in use in the locality.

Good luck,

John
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Mary Fisher
 
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"chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , Mary Fisher
writes

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:59:01 -0000 Mary Fisher wrote :
Why didn't she ask before? It didn't spring up overnight.

No, I planted it myself 25 years ago


My point was that if it was a problem for her she could have approached
you
before.

But the forthcoming CA
designation made removing it a now or never matter.


But it hadn't been a problem before ... apparently.

but maybe it was something which would become more of a problem in the
future (as in getting bigger) and the CA status proposal stirred her into
action.


Unless it were a eucalyptus or leyland it's unlikely to grow much more after
25 years. I wonder if they'd becovered under conservation :-)

Mary


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Andy Hall
 
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:35:44 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .


How many people do you know with post Polio syndrome who spend most of
their time in a wheelchair? I now know two.


Lots, actually, since I've been involved for many years with PHAB -
Physically Handicapped and Able Bodied.

What's your point?


Simply that this should take precedence over the titting around by
petty bureaucrats with nothing better to do.


--

..andy

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Capitol
 
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Mary Fisher wrote:

I wouldn't buy a house with them at any price.


That's where the beauty of personal choice comes in. You should be free
to purchase a house with inferior wooden fittings if you so desire. This
is how British villages developed, with everybody doing their own thing.
Grade 11 listing and conservation areas are anathema to a progressive
democratic way of life and should be removed as fast as possible from
the nation. If you want this type of regulated society, then run a local
referendum and get 66% of all the registered voters to agree to it,
otherwise, form a company, sell shares and purchase a village where all
the inhabitants are prepared to pay for their beliefs.

Or do you believe in the political divine righteousness of simply
telling others how to live?

Regards
Capitol
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