In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard Marx wrote:


There is a 10-way box, but I'm not up to analysing it :-S

I'm hoping from the new info above, and that the new valve stays
midway even with the stat wired apparently correctly, you will be
able to give me some things to try?

I can only re-iterate what I said earlier - your wiring is stuffed. You have
a new actuator, so let's assume that that does what it says on the tin. If
that stays in the mid-position come hell or high water it must mean -
according to my understanding of the beast - that the brown/white wire is
live all the time (regardless of the room stat status) and that the grey
wire is *never* live - even when the cylinder stat is satisfied and/or HW is
turned off at the programmer.

If you are not capable of tracing all the wiring and comparing what is
connected to what in the junction box with a standard Y-Plan setup, you'll
need to find someone who is.


I'm in SW London (near Richmond,
Surrey) if anyone is up for sharing their expertise. Will make it
worth their while

Afraid I'm 100 miles away - or I'd have a look myself. Maybe there's someone
a bit nearer?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
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Just to update the thread, I took out a British Gas HomeCare agreement for
£16/month and had the initial visit today. The problems turned out to be:

* Stiff 3-way valve due to sludge (I had only changed the dry part of the
valve not the pipes)
* Incorrectly wired stat
* Incorrectly wired junction box

He took about 2 hours to put it all right, and I now have full independent
control of heating and hot water, with a working hall wall stat.

Thanks for all your help, looks like you were right.

Final question: Is there a quick, easy, low-cost anti-sludge treatment I can
add to the system to prevent the new valve ceising up?

Thanks

Richard Marx wrote:

Final question: Is there a quick, easy, low-cost anti-sludge treatment I can
add to the system to prevent the new valve ceising up?

Companies like Sentinel and Fernox make both corrosion inhibitors which
should be used to prevent sludge in the first place (which is basically
bits of decomposed heating system held in suspension!), and also
desludgers that can be used to clean a system.

You *must* have the former in there all the time to keep things running
well. Whether the desludger is needed will depend on how badly sludged
your system is (cool patches at the bottom middle sections of radiators
would be a good clue there is a pile of crap in there).

If you use the desludgers you add them to the system for a couple of
weeks, then drain down, flush through a few times, refill and add fresh
inhibitor.

Might be worth googling back on this group for Andy Hall's posts on a
procedure for doing your own system flush.

--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Richard Marx wrote:

Final question: Is there a quick, easy, low-cost anti-sludge treatment I
can add to the system to prevent the new valve ceising up?

Companies like Sentinel and Fernox make both corrosion inhibitors which
should be used to prevent sludge in the first place (which is basically
bits of decomposed heating system held in suspension!), and also
desludgers that can be used to clean a system.

You *must* have the former in there all the time to keep things running
well. Whether the desludger is needed will depend on how badly sludged
your system is (cool patches at the bottom middle sections of radiators
would be a good clue there is a pile of crap in there).

If you use the desludgers you add them to the system for a couple of
weeks, then drain down, flush through a few times, refill and add fresh
inhibitor.

Might be worth googling back on this group for Andy Hall's posts on a
procedure for doing your own system flush.

Great, thanks. Would something like this do the job?:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=79832

I assume the current sludge is gone as the system has been emptied a few
times due to fitting of new radiator in bathroom, and today's replacement of
the 3-port valve.

--
Cheers,

John.

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Richard Marx wrote:


Great, thanks. Would something like this do the job?:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=79832

Yup, that is the stuff. You can get it in a ordinary tub for a little
over half the price - not as easy to add to a sealed system as the
cartridge one, but doable with a funnel into a partially drained rad.

I assume the current sludge is gone as the system has been emptied a few
times due to fitting of new radiator in bathroom, and today's replacement of
the 3-port valve.

Depends on how bad it was. If you were not aware of partial cold bits at
the bottom of rads before, then chances are you did not have a really
bad sludge problem.


--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Richard Marx wrote:


Great, thanks. Would something like this do the job?:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=79832

Yup, that is the stuff. You can get it in a ordinary tub for a little over
half the price - not as easy to add to a sealed system as the cartridge
one, but doable with a funnel into a partially drained rad.

I assume the current sludge is gone as the system has been emptied a few
times due to fitting of new radiator in bathroom, and today's replacement
of the 3-port valve.

Depends on how bad it was. If you were not aware of partial cold bits at
the bottom of rads before, then chances are you did not have a really bad
sludge problem.

There are some cool bits on the bottom centre of the rads, so I will go the
route and do a flush or two with the sludge remover.

On another note, you may remember I have rad stats in all rooms, except the
hallway which has a wall stat. However, as this now works correctly and
overrides the whole system, I find the hall gets too hot before the other
rooms, IOW the hall radiator needs to be turned down. However there is no
control on the rad, I suspect for a reason.

Is it as simple as putting a plastic knob on the square turnable shaft that
was hiding under the coned white plastic cap, or will reducing the flow to
this rad affect the other rads in other rooms?

Advice appreciated on how to reduce the hall temperature, and therefore the
temp the wall stat shuts down at.

Thanks!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard Marx wrote:


On another note, you may remember I have rad stats in all rooms,
except the hallway which has a wall stat. However, as this now works
correctly and overrides the whole system, I find the hall gets too
hot before the other rooms, IOW the hall radiator needs to be turned
down. However there is no control on the rad, I suspect for a reason.

Is it as simple as putting a plastic knob on the square turnable
shaft that was hiding under the coned white plastic cap, or will
reducing the flow to this rad affect the other rads in other rooms?

Advice appreciated on how to reduce the hall temperature, and
therefore the temp the wall stat shuts down at.

This rad should be fitted with two lockshield valves - so that it can't be
turned off by accident. But you can turn it down - either by using a spanner
on the square end of the shaft, or by temporarily fitting a knob.

Reducing the flow through this rad will marginally increase the flow through
the other rads. If the system has never been balanced, it would be a good
idea to do it now - with the thermostatic heads temporarily removed from the
TRVs while you do it. Balancing is important - even when you've got TRVs -
because it ensures that the whole house heats up evenly - rather than
relying on some rooms getting hot and shutting their TRVs before you get any
heat in the remaining rooms.

If the system is already in reasonable balance, you can get away with just
turning down the rad near the room stat - using trial and error to find
suitable valve settings.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
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"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard Marx wrote:


On another note, you may remember I have rad stats in all rooms,
except the hallway which has a wall stat. However, as this now works
correctly and overrides the whole system, I find the hall gets too
hot before the other rooms, IOW the hall radiator needs to be turned
down. However there is no control on the rad, I suspect for a reason.

Is it as simple as putting a plastic knob on the square turnable
shaft that was hiding under the coned white plastic cap, or will
reducing the flow to this rad affect the other rads in other rooms?

Advice appreciated on how to reduce the hall temperature, and
therefore the temp the wall stat shuts down at.

This rad should be fitted with two lockshield valves - so that it can't be
turned off by accident. But you can turn it down - either by using a
spanner on the square end of the shaft, or by temporarily fitting a knob.

Reducing the flow through this rad will marginally increase the flow
through the other rads. If the system has never been balanced, it would be
a good idea to do it now - with the thermostatic heads temporarily removed
from the TRVs while you do it. Balancing is important - even when you've
got TRVs - because it ensures that the whole house heats up evenly -
rather than relying on some rooms getting hot and shutting their TRVs
before you get any heat in the remaining rooms.

If the system is already in reasonable balance, you can get away with just
turning down the rad near the room stat - using trial and error to find
suitable valve settings.

Cheers Setty, however I have just done this and water is *very* slowly
seeping out of the join in the shaft, between where it turns. How can I
stop this? It is fine when fully open, but not midway.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard Marx wrote:

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
remaining rooms. If the system is already in reasonable balance, you can
get away
with just turning down the rad near the room stat - using trial and
error to find suitable valve settings.

Cheers Setty(!), however I have just done this and water is *very* slowly
seeping out of the join in the shaft, between where it turns. How
can I stop this? It is fine when fully open, but not midway.

It's leaking from the gland round the shaft - which needs to be tightened or
re-packed.

First try tightening the small nut nearest the end of the shaft. This will
compress the gland material onto shaft. If that doesn't work, remove the
nut, wind some fine hemp or string (but not nylon) round the shaft, and
refit and tighten the nut - so that the nut pushes the string down into the
gland region. With any luck, that will fix it.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
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Set Square wrote:

Cheers Setty(!), however I have just done this and water is *very* slowly
seeping out of the join in the shaft, between where it turns. How
can I stop this? It is fine when fully open, but not midway.


It's leaking from the gland round the shaft - which needs to be tightened or
re-packed.

First try tightening the small nut nearest the end of the shaft. This will
compress the gland material onto shaft. If that doesn't work, remove the
nut, wind some fine hemp or string (but not nylon) round the shaft, and
refit and tighten the nut - so that the nut pushes the string down into the
gland region. With any luck, that will fix it.

And if that don't work, open that one fully again, and try turning down
the one on the other end of the rad instead ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Set Square wrote:

Cheers Setty(!), however I have just done this and water is *very* slowly
seeping out of the join in the shaft, between where it turns. How
can I stop this? It is fine when fully open, but not midway.


It's leaking from the gland round the shaft - which needs to be tightened
or re-packed.

First try tightening the small nut nearest the end of the shaft. This
will compress the gland material onto shaft. If that doesn't work, remove
the nut, wind some fine hemp or string (but not nylon) round the shaft,
and refit and tighten the nut - so that the nut pushes the string down
into the gland region. With any luck, that will fix it.

And if that don't work, open that one fully again, and try turning down
the one on the other end of the rad instead ;-)

Good thinking! The first solution didn't work as there wasn't a smaller
nut, and tightening the larger one didn't change things, but using the shaft
on the other side seems to have done it.

You guys are great to have around!

I also fixed the ceased radstats in a couple of rooms by spraying them with
WD40 and hitting the pins with a hammer.

Have now ordered digital replacements for the wall timer and hall stat to
update things and give me more control. Looks like I'm almost there!

Hehe it never ends...

Since the engineer's visit, the boiler itself has been making 'swooshing'
sounds every few seconds. It sounds like when you glide your hand through a
bath to mix the water. I suspect this is air, however the rads don't appear
to need any further bleeding as I get water straight away.

The engineer did release air from one of the pipes above the boiler (flow or
return?) however the problem is still present. He also mentioned the bit at
the top of the boiler where the vessel is shouldn't have been fitted tilted
at 30-degrees, which it has. There is no room for it to lie flat.

Any ideas?

PS: Should the boiler run constantly - not the gas flame, but the water
running through it, even when the rads and wall thermostat are off? What is
it circulating if there is no demand for heat or hot water?

Richard Marx wrote:

Since the engineer's visit, the boiler itself has been making 'swooshing'
sounds every few seconds. It sounds like when you glide your hand through a
bath to mix the water. I suspect this is air, however the rads don't appear
to need any further bleeding as I get water straight away.

Yup that sounds like air...

The engineer did release air from one of the pipes above the boiler (flow or
return?) however the problem is still present. He also mentioned the bit at
the top of the boiler where the vessel is shouldn't have been fitted tilted
at 30-degrees, which it has. There is no room for it to lie flat.

Can't quite visualise what you mean here...

Any ideas?

The air may clear itself in a couple of days - it will slowly get
deposited into a radiator

PS: Should the boiler run constantly - not the gas flame, but the water
running through it, even when the rads and wall thermostat are off? What is
it circulating if there is no demand for heat or hot water?

Most boilers will certainly run the pump for a little time after they
have finished heating. Some may even be wired to run it continously.

--
Cheers,

John.

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"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard Marx wrote:

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
remaining rooms. If the system is already in reasonable balance, you can
get away
with just turning down the rad near the room stat - using trial and
error to find suitable valve settings.

Cheers Setty(!), however I have just done this and water is *very* slowly
seeping out of the join in the shaft, between where it turns. How
can I stop this? It is fine when fully open, but not midway.

It's leaking from the gland round the shaft - which needs to be tightened
or re-packed.

First try tightening the small nut nearest the end of the shaft. This will
compress the gland material onto shaft. If that doesn't work, remove the
nut, wind some fine hemp or string (but not nylon) round the shaft, and
refit and tighten the nut - so that the nut pushes the string down into
the gland region. With any luck, that will fix it.

Sorry to say the one on the other end of the rad is leaking as well, very
slowly. I'm not sure about your description of what to do, however, as I
don't see a small nut near the end of the shaft. Maybe it's a different
type?

Clicky piccie: http://tinyurl.com/d84n3

If I remove the nut, presumably water will flood out?

Any other 'quick fix' that is less complicated?

Thanks

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard Marx wrote:


Sorry to say the one on the other end of the rad is leaking as well,
very slowly. I'm not sure about your description of what to do,
however, as I don't see a small nut near the end of the shaft. Maybe
it's a different type?

Clicky piccie: http://tinyurl.com/d84n3

If I remove the nut, presumably water will flood out?

I'm not sure - I'm more used to valves which look like this:
http://www.mills37.plus.com/rad_valve.JPG

On my valves, the top hexagon is connected to an externally threaded bit
which screws inside the valve body, and compresses the gland packing. You
can remove that without any significant leaks. It's the next hexagon down -
which is about 1/2" high - which would have to be undone to cause a flood.

I can't see from your photo whether there are nuts on two levels, or not. I
can see a tallish internally threaded nut at the top, with the shaft
sticking up through it. Is there a thinner nut below it? If so, the top nut
may be a gland nut. If you undo it slightly, does it feel as if just the nut
can be removed - or does it feel like the whole innards will come out if you
unscrew it fully?

If it *isn't* a gland nut, how the hell are you supposed to fix leaking
glands - anybody know? [Probably a silly question - you throw the valve away
and fit a new one!]
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
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"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard Marx wrote:


Sorry to say the one on the other end of the rad is leaking as well,
very slowly. I'm not sure about your description of what to do,
however, as I don't see a small nut near the end of the shaft. Maybe
it's a different type?

Clicky piccie: http://tinyurl.com/d84n3

If I remove the nut, presumably water will flood out?

I'm not sure - I'm more used to valves which look like this:
http://www.mills37.plus.com/rad_valve.JPG

On my valves, the top hexagon is connected to an externally threaded bit
which screws inside the valve body, and compresses the gland packing. You
can remove that without any significant leaks. It's the next hexagon
down - which is about 1/2" high - which would have to be undone to cause a
flood.

I can't see from your photo whether there are nuts on two levels, or not.
I can see a tallish internally threaded nut at the top, with the shaft
sticking up through it. Is there a thinner nut below it? If so, the top
nut may be a gland nut. If you undo it slightly, does it feel as if just
the nut can be removed - or does it feel like the whole innards will come
out if you unscrew it fully?

Thanks. It does feel like the whole innards would come out with it :-S Not
sure I want to risk undoing it any more.

If it *isn't* a gland nut, how the hell are you supposed to fix leaking
glands - anybody know? [Probably a silly question - you throw the valve
away and fit a new one!]
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Set Square wrote:

If it *isn't* a gland nut, how the hell are you supposed to fix leaking
glands - anybody know? [Probably a silly question - you throw the valve
away and fit a new one!]

Hit the nail on the head I expect!

How brave are you feeling?

If it was me I would drain a little water from the system so that the
pressure guage reads zero. Get another similar new valve. Turn off the old
one. Drain the rad (by undoing the coupling to the valve). Stick some old
towels around the knackered one and undo the nut holding it on the pipe
(while keeping the valve pushed down against the pipe) - it will seep a
bit but you wont lose too much water at this point. Once free of the nut
have it away briskly and replace with your thumb and then repeat to
substitute the new one. Done swiftly you ought not loose more than a cup
of water! Having an assistant hold a towel over the top of the valve (but
clear of your hands will catch any squirts).

I'm brave enough I think, however it seems to have stopped seeping. Perhaps
the limescale blocked it up as I suspect happened originally. For now at
least, we are okay. Phew!

Richard Marx wrote:

I'm brave enough I think, however it seems to have stopped seeping. Perhaps
the limescale blocked it up as I suspect happened originally. For now at
least, we are okay. Phew!

That is quite possible - if it is a valve with a packed gland as set
square described, then they can leak if the packing drys out. Once it
gets wet again it swells and stops the leak.

--
Cheers,

John.

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