Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help, if
it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

I live in a 4 bed bungalow built in the 70's.

The electricity bill seems extremeley high, about £400 per 1/4.

I have had npower check the meter, they say it is fine, this was 4 or 5
moths ago.

Since then weve been careful to make sure that we turn off all
unneccesary items when possible, but it seems that this has helped very
little.

I am running the following items :-

48 inch TV, LCD type, gets used maybe 4 hours per day, on standby @
other times.
Sky Box.
Small TV in the kitchen, gets used similar to big TV.
One PC (security system), left running all day, three cctv (just the
micromark type) cams running 24/7. PC has 3 monitors, but these are
turned off when not in use, guess max 4 hours per day usage.
Laptop also running all day.
One newish fridge freezer, couple of chest freezers in the garage.
Couple of printers in standby mode all day.
Heating is by a combi boiler, heating is on maybe 12 hours per day at
this time of year.

Kettle boiled max of 5 times a day (just with small amount of water in)
There is 6 outside 500 watt lights, PIR activated, of these 4 are
trigerred maybe 6 times each per day (a guesstimate), theyre timed to
operate for just a couple of mins each.
Three night storage heaters. Economy 7 is fitted.

Now that ive written down everything, there does seem quite a bit. Ive
taken readings every morning this week, and overnight were using 34
units (its a modern meter, blue button gives you night reading and day
one). Through the day were using 25 units, both seem excessive to me.

Do others think that the readings are high or normal for this type of
usage ?.

Thanks.

wrote:
Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help,
if it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

I live in a 4 bed bungalow built in the 70's.

The electricity bill seems extremeley high, about £400 per 1/4.


"npower", there's you're problem

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

On 29 Dec 2005 14:29:13 -0800, wrote:

Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help, if
it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

I live in a 4 bed bungalow built in the 70's.

The electricity bill seems extremeley high, about £400 per 1/4.

THe price doesn't give all that much clue. Have you chosen supplier
carefully to get the best tariff? e.g. www.uswitch.com



I have had npower check the meter, they say it is fine, this was 4 or 5
moths ago.

Since then weve been careful to make sure that we turn off all
unneccesary items when possible, but it seems that this has helped very
little.

I am running the following items :-

48 inch TV, LCD type, gets used maybe 4 hours per day, on standby @
other times.
Sky Box.
Small TV in the kitchen, gets used similar to big TV.
One PC (security system), left running all day, three cctv (just the
micromark type) cams running 24/7. PC has 3 monitors, but these are
turned off when not in use, guess max 4 hours per day usage.
Laptop also running all day.
One newish fridge freezer, couple of chest freezers in the garage.
Couple of printers in standby mode all day.

At a rough estimate, there is about 1kW of usage there, probably no
more, perhaps as little as 500W. That would give you 12 to 24 units
per day.



Heating is by a combi boiler, heating is on maybe 12 hours per day at
this time of year.

Shouldn't add a lot to the electricity - perhaps another 100W or so
averaged out.


Kettle boiled max of 5 times a day (just with small amount of water in)

2kW for 3 mins x 5. 1/2 unit


There is 6 outside 500 watt lights, PIR activated, of these 4 are
trigerred maybe 6 times each per day (a guesstimate), theyre timed to
operate for just a couple of mins each.

2kW for 2 mins x 6 1/2 unit

Three night storage heaters. Economy 7 is fitted.

I think that these would be the culprits. Up to 3kW each for several
hours.

Do they take a charge during the afternoon as well?


Now that ive written down everything, there does seem quite a bit. Ive
taken readings every morning this week, and overnight were using 34
units (its a modern meter, blue button gives you night reading and day
one). Through the day were using 25 units, both seem excessive to me.

I can see how you get to that. Try the same tests with the storage
radiators turned off for a day.



Do others think that the readings are high or normal for this type of
usage ?.



--

..andy

wrote in message
oups.com...
Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help, if
it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

I live in a 4 bed bungalow built in the 70's.

The electricity bill seems extremeley high, about £400 per 1/4.

I have had npower check the meter, they say it is fine, this was 4 or 5
moths ago.

Since then weve been careful to make sure that we turn off all
unneccesary items when possible, but it seems that this has helped very
little.

I am running the following items :-

48 inch TV, LCD type, gets used maybe 4 hours per day, on standby @
other times.
Sky Box.
Small TV in the kitchen, gets used similar to big TV.
One PC (security system), left running all day, three cctv (just the
micromark type) cams running 24/7. PC has 3 monitors, but these are
turned off when not in use, guess max 4 hours per day usage.
Laptop also running all day.
One newish fridge freezer, couple of chest freezers in the garage.
Couple of printers in standby mode all day.
Heating is by a combi boiler, heating is on maybe 12 hours per day at
this time of year.

Kettle boiled max of 5 times a day (just with small amount of water in)
There is 6 outside 500 watt lights, PIR activated, of these 4 are
trigerred maybe 6 times each per day (a guesstimate), theyre timed to
operate for just a couple of mins each.
Three night storage heaters. Economy 7 is fitted.

Now that ive written down everything, there does seem quite a bit. Ive
taken readings every morning this week, and overnight were using 34
units (its a modern meter, blue button gives you night reading and day
one). Through the day were using 25 units, both seem excessive to me.

Do others think that the readings are high or normal for this type of
usage ?.

Thanks.

get shut of the economy 7 as you will be paying more for your daytime prices
per unit. Gt some radiators fitted instead to make use of your existing
heating system. Get shut of 2 of the PC monitors and stop leaving things on
standby as it still uses betweeen 1/3 and 1/2 of the power as if it was on.
Forget the PC security system, get a cheap DVD recorder and use that.
Change your 500w lights to 150w types. Why have you got printers on
standby, just switch them on when you need them and get shut of your
freezers!
Switch the laptop on when you need it.

I think based on what you said the bill is correct, you're just running a
lot of appliances with no real need.

overnight were using 34 units (its a modern meter, blue button gives
you night reading and day one)
Do others think that the readings are high or normal for this type
of usage ?

One thing you could check - are they applying the correct rates to the
bill, i.e. I used to be on a similar tariff, with a slightly different
setup to an E7 - the peak usage was often swapped with the off-peak
usage due to the different settings in the meter, and I don`t think I
got a single correct bill in over 4 years. The normal "cycle" of the
digits was different with my tariff, hence the easy mistake of
transposing readings.

Another thing to check - is the off-peak rate switching in correctly,
and whose equipment controls the switching of the off-peak load (i.e.
the storage rads) - this is often the consumers' equipment (contactor)
and it could be that its not releasing, so the rads are constantly
charging.

--
Please add the word "newsgroup" in the subject line of personal emails
**** My email address includes "ngspamtrap" and " ****

Buy a power consumption meter and check each appliance over 24 hrs. I'd
suspect the freezers if they are old, but there's no substitute for a
lot of tedious measurements. The storage heater consumption seems a bit
low, is the clock correct in the meter? I found a large number(15) of
small appliances which consumed £2 of electricity/month, these really
can add up. Lighting can also be expensive if it is normal bulbs.

Regards
Capitol

In message .com,
writes
Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help, if
it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

I live in a 4 bed bungalow built in the 70's.

The electricity bill seems extremeley high, about £400 per 1/4.

Thanks.

Night storage heaters and gas central heating - no wonder you call it a
tropical island




--
geoff

In message .com,
writes
Now that ive written down everything, there does seem quite a bit. Ive
taken readings every morning this week, and overnight were using 34
units (its a modern meter, blue button gives you night reading and day
one). Through the day were using 25 units, both seem excessive to me.

59 units per day x 91 days = 4914 units

40000p/4914units = 8.14p per unit

seems about right as far as charging goes.

i think I pay about 10p for the first 200, then 8p thereafter, with no
standing charge.


--
Richard Faulkner

john wrote:

get shut of the economy 7 as you will be paying more for your daytime prices
per unit.

Depends on the tarrif you are on. Some suppliers simply charge a higher
standing charge but the same day rate.

Gt some radiators fitted instead to make use of your existing
heating system.

yup - that would be the big saving.

Get shut of 2 of the PC monitors and stop leaving things on
standby as it still uses betweeen 1/3 and 1/2 of the power as if it was on.

1/3 to 1/2 is way over the top for something in standby... even my 22"
CRT monitor drops from 130W operational to under 2W in standby. My TV
from 160W to under 5W.

Forget the PC security system, get a cheap DVD recorder and use that.

Not as flexible and not going to make that much of a saving IMHO.

Change your 500w lights to 150w types. Why have you got printers on
standby, just switch them on when you need them

Again, standby on mist printers is negligble these days.

and get shut of your
freezers!

Not the most practical suggestion... ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 29 Dec 2005 14:29:13 -0800, wrote:

Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help, if
it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.


SNIP

Now that ive written down everything, there does seem quite a bit. Ive
taken readings every morning this week, and overnight were using 34
units (its a modern meter, blue button gives you night reading and day
one). Through the day were using 25 units, both seem excessive to me.

Do others think that the readings are high or normal for this type of
usage ?.

Thanks.

I use approx 16 units a day which results in a bill of £116.

I think you're getting it on the cheap for 59 units day. ;-)

Only option IMO is to cut your consumption.

Andy

in 482554 20051229 222913 wrote:
Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help, if
it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

I live in a 4 bed bungalow built in the 70's.

The electricity bill seems extremeley high, about =A3400 per 1/4.
....

I have a similar set-up to you - with the exception of the night storage heaters - and
my bill is less than 500 per year. But my heating is gas - about another 500 / year.

wrote:
Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help, if
it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

I live in a 4 bed bungalow built in the 70's.

The electricity bill seems extremeley high, about £400 per 1/4.

I have had npower check the meter, they say it is fine, this was 4 or 5
moths ago.

Yes, in nearly all these cases the meter is fine, its normally the
consumer's expectations that are faulty.


Since then weve been careful to make sure that we turn off all
unneccesary items when possible, but it seems that this has helped very
little.

I am running the following items :-

48 inch TV, LCD type, gets used maybe 4 hours per day, on standby @
other times.
Sky Box.
Small TV in the kitchen, gets used similar to big TV.

OK start by getting a killawatt meter, measure your stuff and see what
eats what. Maplin do one for £15 or something.

One PC (security system), left running all day,

fwliw check your power settings if its windows.


three cctv (just the
micromark type) cams running 24/7. PC has 3 monitors, but these are
turned off when not in use, guess max 4 hours per day usage.
Laptop also running all day.
One newish fridge freezer, couple of chest freezers in the garage.

ah, check those ffs arent running continuously. If one is, replace it.
Once theyre working ok, you can then glue polystyrene foam around teh
outside to cut consumption right back. A properly working ff wont eat
much, but a faulty one will.


Couple of printers in standby mode all day.
Heating is by a combi boiler, heating is on maybe 12 hours per day at
this time of year.

Kettle boiled max of 5 times a day (just with small amount of water in)
There is 6 outside 500 watt lights, PIR activated, of these 4 are
trigerred maybe 6 times each per day (a guesstimate), theyre timed to
operate for just a couple of mins each.

replace bulbs with 150w, more than enough in most cases. That wont save
you a lot, but it will save you.

Three night storage heaters. Economy 7 is fitted.

Why those plus gas CH? Gas is way cheaper, lose the electric heating if
possible. If not, extend the gas system then lose the electric.
Electric heating is a serious money hog. Once those are out of action
you can lose the E7, you may find you get slightly lower rates that
way. Shop around for leccy rates of course.


Now that ive written down everything, there does seem quite a bit. Ive
taken readings every morning this week, and overnight were using 34
units (its a modern meter, blue button gives you night reading and day
one). Through the day were using 25 units, both seem excessive to me.

Do others think that the readings are high or normal for this type of
usage ?.

Thanks.

Your use seems excessive to be honest. There are 2 biggies he lose
the electric heating, and insulate the property if not already done.
Cavity wall fill, loft insulation, draught proofing if necessary. The 2
smaller points are the ffs and the electricity supplier. The rest is
peanuts but will still save you something.

Ah, what lighting? If its downlighters, lose those, theyre pricey to
run.


NT

Three night storage heaters. Economy 7 is fitted.

You've got gas. Dump the storage heaters with extreme prejudice. Switch to
non Economy 7 tariff.

Christian.

wrote in message
oups.com...


Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help, if
it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

I live in a 4 bed bungalow built in the 70's.

The electricity bill seems extremeley high, about £400 per 1/4.

I have had npower check the meter, they say it is fine, this was 4 or 5
moths ago.

Since then weve been careful to make sure that we turn off all
unneccesary items when possible, but it seems that this has helped very
little.

I am running the following items :-

48 inch TV, LCD type, gets used maybe 4 hours per day, on standby @
other times.
Sky Box.
Small TV in the kitchen, gets used similar to big TV.
One PC (security system), left running all day, three cctv (just the
micromark type) cams running 24/7. PC has 3 monitors, but these are
turned off when not in use, guess max 4 hours per day usage.
Laptop also running all day.
One newish fridge freezer, couple of chest freezers in the garage.
Couple of printers in standby mode all day.
Heating is by a combi boiler, heating is on maybe 12 hours per day at
this time of year.

Kettle boiled max of 5 times a day (just with small amount of water in)
There is 6 outside 500 watt lights, PIR activated, of these 4 are
trigerred maybe 6 times each per day (a guesstimate), theyre timed to
operate for just a couple of mins each.
Three night storage heaters. Economy 7 is fitted.

Now that ive written down everything, there does seem quite a bit. Ive
taken readings every morning this week, and overnight were using 34
units (its a modern meter, blue button gives you night reading and day
one). Through the day were using 25 units, both seem excessive to me.

Do others think that the readings are high or normal for this type of
usage ?.


Get rid of the storage heaters and extend the rads. I assume you run the
storage heaters because rads are not in those rooms. Increase insulation in
the loft, make the house more draught proof. Use the hot on the combi to
fill the kettles. The hot water is drinkable if off the mains. Get LDC
monitors, use low energy light bulbs. Don't have equipment on when you don't
use it.

Get a cheaper supplier.

48 inch TV, LCD type, gets used maybe 4 hours per day, on standby @

WHY on stanby ????. Turn the bloody thing off when its not being used.

Dave

In message , Dave Stanton
writes

48 inch TV, LCD type, gets used maybe 4 hours per day, on standby @

WHY on stanby ????. Turn the bloody thing off when its not being used.

Dave

Amazingly my new Toshiba flat screen LCD can't be turned off, I'd have
to turn it off at the mains, which, because of my power lead mess would
also turn off the Sky+ box which is undesirable, plus the switch is
bloody awkward to get to.

--
Mike Buckley
RD350LC2
http://www.toastyhamster.org
BONY#38

On 2005-12-29, wrote:
... stuff deleted ...

There is 6 outside 500 watt lights, PIR activated, of these 4 are
trigerred maybe 6 times each per day (a guesstimate), theyre timed to
operate for just a couple of mins each.

6 floodlights! OK, putting aside your issue about excessive leccy bills
do you _really_ need this much security lighting?

As it turns out, govt. stats http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/statistics46.htm
show that only 27% of burglaries occur during the evening; when a person
is likely to notice their security floodlights (but see later).

I realise that people think it makes their houses safer, but
unless you investigate each incident, you may find that all
the floodlights do is illuminate your vulnerable areas
and help any bad people break in, rather than putting them off.

Sadly, no-one has any information on buglaries that didn't happen (deterrence)

Take a look at this website, it's got some useful stuff

Pete
--
.................................................. .........................
.. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
.. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
.. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

wrote:
Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request for help,
if it isn't i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

I live in a 4 bed bungalow built in the 70's.

The electricity bill seems extremeley high, about £400 per 1/4.


Expect it to go higher in 2006

Npower
a.. Bills set to rise by 13.7% for gas and 12% for electricity
a.. Average household bills set to increase by £85 a year
--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

On 29 Dec 2005 14:29:13 -0800, wrote:

I am running the following items :-

48 inch TV, LCD type, gets used maybe 4 hours per day, on standby @
other times.
Sky Box.
Small TV in the kitchen, gets used similar to big TV.
One PC (security system), left running all day, three cctv (just the
micromark type) cams running 24/7. PC has 3 monitors, but these are
turned off when not in use, guess max 4 hours per day usage.
Laptop also running all day.
One newish fridge freezer, couple of chest freezers in the garage.
Couple of printers in standby mode all day.
Heating is by a combi boiler, heating is on maybe 12 hours per day at
this time of year.

Kettle boiled max of 5 times a day (just with small amount of water in)
There is 6 outside 500 watt lights, PIR activated, of these 4 are
trigerred maybe 6 times each per day (a guesstimate), theyre timed to
operate for just a couple of mins each.
Three night storage heaters. Economy 7 is fitted.

I think that £400 would be about normal. I strongly suspect that it's
your freezers in the garage that are eating the lekky.

I have one of those Lidl Power meters and tested all the high energy
items. Our not old freezer was using about £80 per year.

I'd also suggest changing bulbs for energy efficient types and
checking the power consumption of your telly on standby. Whilst most
tellies are OK there are a few that use horrific amounts of power when
switched "off".

sponix

So you don't cook by electric re electric hobs/dbl-oven/grill?
Your bill is incorrect - if the average is 1600pa.

Verify measuring...
o That E7 is being switched over correctly re timing
---- E7 contactors do jam, older timers malfunction
o That the meter readings are correct - they put a check meter on
---- meters do go bonkers
---- 80A meter may have been fried by current draw

Economy savings...
o Lighting -- 6x 500W halogen is a no-no
---- I hope it's not on a 70s lighting ring
---- few neighbours will like 500-3000W in line-of-sight
o Freezers -- frozen 50lb vegetables, 50lb bread is uneconomic
---- examine carefully the economics of what you are freezing
---- vs home-delivery, tinned or long life part cooked bread
---- old freezers seem to kick out a lot of heat (insulation, efficiency)
---- freezers can go AWOL if ambient is lower than the fridge
o Storage Heaters -- replace if you can with radiators
---- you don't state size or if automatic / manual charge controller
---- storage heaters are ok for 10-20x a winter heating a hall if -7oC
---- they are to be avoided unless a very small area superbly insulated
---- try to get to 1, if rarely used price out going off E7 re day-rate

Congratulations on going for a LCD v Plasma big-screen...
o Plasma can draw 380-750W - that adds up *fast*
---- heat isn't wasted in a house, but it's inefficient creation
o LCD will draw 80W I guess re that size backlighting
---- depends on how bright you have the backlight

48"... even Titchmarsh would look frightening on that :-)
The world changing from 60W 21" CRT to 550W+ Plasma is a huge 9x
increase multipled by millions of people. Instead it seems people may go
for LCD solutions which are actually less than a CRT vs 9x worse.

Now PCs...
o Laptop will be very low
---- 40W re 2.5" disk + lower backlight Watts + power saving
---- however power saving the backlight is prudent
---- standby / hibernate / turn off if unused for more than 1hr
o Desktop will be higher
---- realise 3 monitors = 3 backlights = 35-40W each
-------- backlight life is power-on-hours, so power off if unused
---- Prescott P4 CPU dissipates 50W at idle
-------- 24/7/52 = 22.2ukp day-rate + 2.52ukp night-rate = 25ukp/yr
-------- power off when not in use - idle is still 50W

Tualatin P3 processors idle at well below a Prescott or Northwood P4 CPU,
so for second PCs or "mule PCs" (doing email or file searches, file server)
they have a strong economic argument without being as slow as VIA EPIA.

Now Printers...
o Laser printers
---- recent models idle at a few watts, older models quite a few watts
---- fuser is 350-500W, schedule big-prints to E7 or use a HP990 inkjet
o Inkjet printers
---- if one is rarely used, power off
---- far lower draw than laser despite being slower (10ppm v 20ppm)
---- however cost saved on electricity may be offset by consumables :-)

Prices quoted are for Atlantic Electric Internet tarif *ignoring* the higher
no-standing charge units, so you need to add a little bit to the figures
above.

If you are spooling invoices off every few minutes on the laser, then the
fuser will be drawing 350W+ regularly. Print them off in one block, or
on economy 7 or e-invoicing via PDF printed to CutePDF "printer".

Your real wildcards are the storage heaters & the freezers (plural).
--
DB.

Chest freezers often use the case as a heatsink. If the case gets slightly
warm it probably does, in which case, *dont* insulate it.

I thought they dump heat into door seals to stop the doors freezing up?
--
DB.

Thanks for all the replies, ive condensed my reply to early replies
into one posting

One thing you could check - are they applying the correct rates to the
bill, i.e. I used to be on a similar tariff, with a slightly different
setup to an E7 - the peak usage was often swapped with the off-peak
usage due to the different settings in the meter, and I don`t think I
got a single correct bill in over 4 years. The normal "cycle" of the
digits was different with my tariff, hence the easy mistake of
transposing readings.

I think the rates are correct, they are as follows :-

Night 2.690p per kWh
Day 17.290p per kWh (i think this applies to just the first 182 kWh
units per 1/4
Day 8.960p per kWh.


Another thing to check - is the off-peak rate switching in correctly,
and whose equipment controls the switching of the off-peak load (i.e.
the storage rads) - this is often the consumers' equipment (contactor)
and it could be that its not releasing, so the rads are constantly
charging.

Can you tell me how i could check this ?.
The storage heaters have a switch next to each of them, with a red
light that indicates when theyre turned on, im going to monitor when
these go on and off.
(came on around midnight last night)
-------

Buy a power consumption meter and check each appliance over 24 hrs. I'd
suspect the freezers if they are old, but there's no substitute for a
lot of tedious measurements. The storage heater consumption seems a bit
low, is the clock correct in the meter? I found a large number(15) of
small appliances which consumed £2 of electricity/month, these really
can add up. Lighting can also be expensive if it is normal bulbs.

Ill take your advice on the consumption meter, i dont know if the clock
in the meter is correct (its a digital one), i have no way of checking
this out personally.


-----


Night storage heaters and gas central heating - no wonder you call it a
tropical island


It's not that hot in here.


-----------

Gt some radiators fitted instead to make use of your existing
heating system.

We cant, its a rented property.

Get shut of 2 of the PC monitors and stop leaving things on
standby as it still uses betweeen 1/3 and 1/2 of the power as if it was on.

I cant get rid of the monitors, i need a 3 monitor system.

Forget the PC security system, get a cheap DVD recorder and use that.

I use the PC system in order to be able to check the property from
anywhere in the world, it also uploads motion detection to upload
images to a server elsewhere in the world, if PC gets nicked, i still
have CCTV images.


and get shut of your freezers!

Not an option im afraid.


-----

I have a similar set-up to you - with the exception of the night
storage heaters - and
my bill is less than 500 per year. But my heating is gas - about
another 500 / year.

My heating is gas also, LPG, (can't get gas mains where we live) it
costs about £1200 for this per year.

----

replace bulbs with 150w, more than enough in most cases. That wont save
you a lot, but it will save you.

Advice noted, thanks.

---


Three night storage heaters. Economy 7 is fitted.

Yes, thats right

You've got gas. Dump the storage heaters with extreme prejudice. Switch to
non Economy 7 tariff.

But the gas radiators are not in every room, wouldnt be a problem if
they were. Two bedrooms are without them, as is the main hall. (Storage
heaters in these locations.

Chest freezers often use the case as a heatsink. If the case gets slightly
warm it probably does, in which case, *dont* insulate it.

Not in these temperatires they dont, night before last was minus 12,
yesterday didnt get much above minus 5, todays been around 1 or 2 deg.

-----

Use the hot on the combi to fill the kettles. The hot water is drinkable if off the mains.

Ugh, no thanks. The hot water always looks milky, i couldnt drink that.

Get LDC monitors,
One already is, i could change one of the others to LCD, but the main
display is a 21 inch Mitsubishi Diamond Pro, the quality is brilliant,
i couldnt change this (but will when it eventually blows).

use low energy light bulbs.

We've tried them, the hallways is far too dark with this type of bulb,
we changed back. Kitchen etc (our main room) , has fluorescents (are
these energy efficient ?).




Thanks for all the help / advice / guidance. At the moment im more
concerned with being certain that the meter is running correctly, does
anyone have any information about how reliable these are ?.

I have an LG model, the manual tells you to specifically turn off with
the remote, these things have to be cooled correctly, thats possibly
why your model has no off switch.
From hitting the "standby" button, it takes maybe 30 or 40 seconds for
the tv to be put fully into this mode, though you lose the picture
immediatley.

If replacing a freezer, an upright tends to be more energy efficient as
well as more convenient.


Drivel wrote:

Use the hot on the combi to
fill the kettles. The hot water is drinkable if off the mains.

This is really not a good idea.


Get LDC
monitors,

The cost of doing that will outstrip any apparent savings, so if you've
got CRTs I'd stay with them.


NT

In message .com,
writes
use low energy light bulbs.

We've tried them, the hallways is far too dark with this type of bulb,
we changed back.

Then you need a bigger bulb :-) - you can get larger wattages from
specialist suppliers than the ones normally sold in the sheds. But it
isn't going to help much with your bills

Thanks for all the help / advice / guidance. At the moment im more
concerned with being certain that the meter is running correctly, does
anyone have any information about how reliable these are ?.

Meters are very reliable, and you said it had been checked by the
supplier anyway.
--
Chris French

So you don't cook by electric re electric hobs/dbl-oven/grill?
Your bill is incorrect - if the average is 1600pa.

Sorry, forgot to mention that, wife prepares evening meal maybe 2 or 3
times per week, at other times were not at home.



Verify measuring...
Can you explain how i would do this ? (are you thinking of one of those
units sold by maplins or some other way)

o That E7 is being switched over correctly re timing

Doing this now, it's looking OK so far.

---- E7 contactors do jam, older timers malfunction

Can you explain how i check for this ?.

o That the meter readings are correct - they put a check meter on
---- meters do go bonkers
---- 80A meter may have been fried by current draw

This has been done once, the engineer used his equipment to monitor the
meter.

Economy savings...
o Lighting -- 6x 500W halogen is a no-no

We have 2 turned off, the other 4 are triggered by PIR, we live in the
middle of nowhere, no street lighting or anything, ill change the bulbs
for 150w.


---- I hope it's not on a 70s lighting ring

The place hasnt been rewired since being built, is this what you mean
?.


---- few neighbours will like 500-3000W in line-of-sight

We dont have any neighbours.

o Freezers -- frozen 50lb vegetables, 50lb bread is uneconomic
---- examine carefully the economics of what you are freezing
---- vs home-delivery, tinned or long life part cooked bread
---- old freezers seem to kick out a lot of heat (insulation, efficiency)

I do need the freezers, sometimes i end up with just one running
though.


---- freezers can go AWOL if ambient is lower than the fridge

I discovered this last year, fridge was cold, (outside in the garage),
so didnt fire up freezer, result was loss of freezer contents.




o Storage Heaters -- replace if you can with radiators
---- you don't state size or if automatic / manual charge controller

I have no idea im afraid, the system appears fully automatic.

---- storage heaters are ok for 10-20x a winter heating a hall if -7oC
---- they are to be avoided unless a very small area superbly insulated
---- try to get to 1, if rarely used price out going off E7 re day-rate

Can you explain about storage heaters / electricity prices / economy 7
a little, never had them before.


Congratulations on going for a LCD v Plasma big-screen...
o Plasma can draw 380-750W - that adds up *fast*
---- heat isn't wasted in a house, but it's inefficient creation
o LCD will draw 80W I guess re that size backlighting
---- depends on how bright you have the backlight

It was the price of the warranty for plasma, and the fact that i was
told by the salespeople that they didnt expect a plasma to go more than
18 months without requiring major surgery, that made me go for LCD.


48"... even Titchmarsh would look frightening on that :-)
The world changing from 60W 21" CRT to 550W+ Plasma is a huge 9x
increase multipled by millions of people. Instead it seems people may go
for LCD solutions which are actually less than a CRT vs 9x worse.

The system is great, but (and i know this will sound stupid), we watch
a 12 inch tv in the kitchen MORE than we watch this.


Now PCs...
o Laptop will be very low

OK, Thanks

---- 40W re 2.5" disk + lower backlight Watts + power saving
---- however power saving the backlight is prudent
---- standby / hibernate / turn off if unused for more than 1hr
We do this already.



o Desktop will be higher
---- realise 3 monitors = 3 backlights = 35-40W each
-------- backlight life is power-on-hours, so power off if unused
---- Prescott P4 CPU dissipates 50W at idle
-------- 24/7/52 = 22.2ukp day-rate + 2.52ukp night-rate = 25ukp/yr
-------- power off when not in use - idle is still 50W

I power off monitors when i leave the room.

Tualatin P3 processors idle at well below a Prescott or Northwood P4 CPU,
so for second PCs or "mule PCs" (doing email or file searches, file server)
they have a strong economic argument without being as slow as VIA EPIA.




Now Printers...
o Laser printers
---- recent models idle at a few watts, older models quite a few watts
---- fuser is 350-500W, schedule big-prints to E7 or use a HP990 inkjet
o Inkjet printers
---- if one is rarely used, power off
---- far lower draw than laser despite being slower (10ppm v 20ppm)
---- however cost saved on electricity may be offset by consumables :-)

Ill turn all printers off from now on, theyre rareley used.



Prices quoted are for Atlantic Electric Internet tarif *ignoring* the higher
no-standing charge units, so you need to add a little bit to the figures
above.

If you are spooling invoices off every few minutes on the laser, then the
fuser will be drawing 350W+ regularly. Print them off in one block, or
on economy 7 or e-invoicing via PDF printed to CutePDF "printer".

Your real wildcards are the storage heaters & the freezers (plural).

Thanks for your help, your advice is greatly appreciated.

--
DB.

Another thing to check - is the off-peak rate switching in correctly,
and whose equipment controls the switching of the off-peak load (i.e.
the storage rads) - this is often the consumers' equipment (contactor)
and it could be that its not releasing, so the rads are constantly
charging.
Can you tell me how i could check this ?.
The storage heaters have a switch next to each of them, with a red
light that indicates when theyre turned on, im going to monitor when
these go on and off.
(came on around midnight last night)

That`s probably about all you can do off the top of my head - apart
from checking that the meter is also switching over the set of digits
its racking up.

--
Please add the word "newsgroup" in the subject line of personal emails
**** My email address includes "ngspamtrap" and " ****

Gt some radiators fitted instead to make use of your existing
heating system.

We cant, its a rented property.

Well... I'd approach the landlord and say the bills are excessively
high, and that you've taken some advice, and have learnt that its
because you have electric storage heating, which is by far the most
expensive form of heating to run. Then I'd explain that if the system
stays as it is, he can expect a number of tenant quits over bills,
leaving him out of pocket while he finds new tenants. IOW it will be
better for him as well as you if he puts CH rads in the rooms, and
insulates too. It might work.

If you cant get any action this way, the last cost cutting resort is to
leave the interior doors open and either turn the storage rads off or
set them 2-3C below the rest of the house. The heat flow from gas
heated rooms will reduce E7 consumption.


You've got gas. Dump the storage heaters with extreme prejudice. Switch to
non Economy 7 tariff.

But the gas radiators are not in every room, wouldnt be a problem if
they were. Two bedrooms are without them, as is the main hall. (Storage
heaters in these locations.

You can set bedrooms to only be heated for 90 mins before bed time, and
once in am too, not all through the day. That'll save you.


use low energy light bulbs.

We've tried them, the hallways is far too dark with this type of bulb,
we changed back.

Why not get higher wattage bulbs, or if its a big place, more of them?
CFLs have a fraction the total cost of filament bulbs, but the power
equivalents marked on the boxes are not realistic. It will save you
money, but no huge amount.


Kitchen etc (our main room) , has fluorescents (are
these energy efficient ?).

yes, linear fls are nearly as good as cfls.


At the moment im more
concerned with being certain that the meter is running correctly, does
anyone have any information about how reliable these are ?

wrong tree



---- I hope it's not on a 70s lighting ring

The place hasnt been rewired since being built, is this what you mean ?.

I wouldnt worry about it. If you had 3kW of halogens _not_ on PIRs
you'd have a problem, but 6x 150w on PIRs is a non issue. (Intermittent
vs continuous, cable rating vs fuse rating, 900w vs 3kW, and load
diversity.)


NT

Sorry, forgot to mention that, wife prepares evening meal
maybe 2 or 3 times per week, at other times were not at home.

If not at home entirely, do you turn off the storage heaters?

E7 Contactors do fail...
o They can fail on continually or fail off
o Timer conceivably can put them on during day rate
o Most modern timers are radio etc triggered


This has been done once, the engineer used his equipment
to monitor the meter.

In which case all that's left is checking E7 switching...
o Check when the timer operates -- re not running into Day Rate
o Check the timer operates correctly -- re on/off

Check storage heaters Control Dials...
o Charge Control - even if Automatic adjust nightly re 1-6
---- the automatic capability is very poor, little better than manual
---- if it goes warm overnight they will easily overcharge
---- tuning 1-6 based on nightly forecast will save a lot of $
o Room Temperature - if left open at night, they waste $
---- dials strip leaving it stuck on open - losing heat when charging
---- automatic charge controller tries to compensate - wastes $
---- people turn the charge controller higher to compensate - wastes $

If you can replace just 1 storage heater with a radiator, do so.


Economy savings...
o Lighting -- 6x 500W halogen is a no-no

We have 2 turned off, the other 4 are triggered by PIR, we live in the
middle of nowhere, no street lighting or anything, ill change the bulbs
for 150w.

150W is fine...
o Cheap change to do vs buying new lights
o Gives lots of light, still the "floodlit" effect
o Saves a lot of $ over 500W

3000W is a big electric heater outside :-)


---- I hope it's not on a 70s lighting ring

The place hasnt been rewired since being built, is this what you mean?.

Partly, 3000W of halogen lighting has 2 characteristics
o Burns 50% more than a 2000W convector heater set to full :-)
---- it may only be a few minutes a day, but it adds up
o Has very high turn on surge & high current consumption
---- most lighting circuits are 6-10A
---- 3kW is 12.5A so I assume on 2 circuits, a hefty lighting load


---- few neighbours will like 500-3000W in line-of-sight

We dont have any neighbours.

I considered that, but they call it a criminal offence :-)))


Can you explain about storage heaters / electricity prices / economy 7
a little, never had them before.

Normal pricing...
o You may a medium price for all hours of the day

Economy 7 pricing...
o You pay a higher price for Day rate than normal pricing
o You pay a very low price for Night rate, far lower than normal pricing

A 3000W storage heater...
o Takes about 50-80p a night to charge depending on set to 1 or 6
o Comes out to 90-110ukp for the whole winter period

I assume you have storage heaters that don't boost in an afternoon,
and also don't use conventional day-rate to boost or run a fan heater.

A 2000W wet radiator...
o Costs probably 25p to deliver the same daily heating, considerably less
o So instead of 90-110ukp for the winter period, it's 25-40ukp

So for every storage heater you remove, you will save ~50-70ukp per year.

If you can remove all 3, I suspect you'd probably save 250ukp per year.
If larger than 3kW, re industrial sized, it could be 500ukp per year.


Congratulations on going for a LCD v Plasma big-screen...
o Plasma can draw 380-750W - that adds up *fast*
---- heat isn't wasted in a house, but it's inefficient creation
o LCD will draw 80W I guess re that size backlighting
---- depends on how bright you have the backlight

It was the price of the warranty for plasma, and the fact that i was
told by the salespeople that they didnt expect a plasma to go more than
18 months without requiring major surgery, that made me go for LCD.

Plasmas are ideal for business or presentations or media buyers.
o They have a finite life, lots of sunk cost, lots of risk for consumers
o Running costs are also ugly - 200ukp/yr for the biggest units

An LCD has a backlight half-life of 30,000-40,000hrs (4-5yrs) and
a failure curve which if it lasts the first year, it should last a good
time.

In 4yrs an LCD TV v Plasma TV will have saved enough electricity to...
o Pay for its replacement outright, or
o Pay for a mid-range branded 3yr warranty laptop outright


o Desktop will be higher
---- realise 3 monitors = 3 backlights = 35-40W each
-------- backlight life is power-on-hours, so power off if unused
---- Prescott P4 CPU dissipates 50W at idle
-------- 24/7/52 = 22.2ukp day-rate + 2.52ukp night-rate = 25ukp/yr
-------- power off when not in use - idle is still 50W

I power off monitors when i leave the room.

Fine, don't power down 3.5" HDs.
The FDB used in them is different to 2.5" HDs re stop/start cycles.


Now Printers...
o Laser printers
---- recent models idle at a few watts, older models quite a few watts
---- fuser is 350-500W, schedule big-prints to E7 or use a HP990 inkjet

Ill turn all printers off from now on, theyre rareley used.

If lasers it is *really* worth doing - along with printing "bulk"...
o Power off + Set the printer driver to paused
o Power on when enough documents in the queue + Unpause the printer

This also helps you save paper.

Another trick when you want just a record is...
o Install CutePDF -- it is a Printer which creates PDF files
o Say you want a short-term hard copy of something -- print to CutePDF

Examples are online purchases or web pages etc, it stores a copy which
you can later print to paper if required, or delete if no longer required.
Free program, no logo or annoying pop-up, works fine.

Finally, check any electric water heating - failed thermostat or stuck on.
Had a unit fail to the "bath" element & thermostat fail closed - never cut
out and used to boil the water if left on long enough. Manual timers can
be had for electric boosting - eg, 5/10/15min push-button.
--
DB.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:29:13 -0800, paulc wrote:



Now that ive written down everything, there does seem quite a bit. Ive
taken readings every morning this week, and overnight were using 34
units (its a modern meter, blue button gives you night reading and day
one). Through the day were using 25 units, both seem excessive to me.

This is very high usage.
It amounts to 3kW.
The fact that is high suggest that there is some sort of heavy off peak
usage.
I wonder if there is a sub main feed to a storage heater (in an out
building?)
Anti frost loft heaters.
Electric ceiling heaters spit curse.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 20:53:38 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:29:13 -0800, paulc wrote:



Now that ive written down everything, there does seem quite a bit. Ive
taken readings every morning this week, and overnight were using 34
units (its a modern meter, blue button gives you night reading and day
one). Through the day were using 25 units, both seem excessive to me.

Snip


Ok just been put onto this by a friend and we are having a similar
problem though not the same.
until a couple of bills back, i was paying £80 per month on DD and
this was covering my usage. we also have economy 7.
i had running
3 x storage heaters
2 x computers (1 on 24/7 as uploading weather station but monitor off
over night)
1 x fridge freezer
1 x chest freezer
1 x electric cooker when in use (about once a day)
1 x microwave about 4 times a week
light bulbs ranging from 1 x 100w to 40w and energy saving 11w
1 x kettle boiled about 10 times a day
1 x emersion heater on 24/7
1 x electric radiator with thermostat set to 18c (24/7)
1 x bedside light 25w
1 x radio alarm

the whole house is electric, no gas and no solid fuel and is rented.

a couple of bills back i got one for £800+ then the next one was for
£700+ so i rang them up and changed to a card meter on 6th december.
it ate £50 in 5 days. things started getting turned off.

i am now running
2 x comps as above
1 x 2kw convector heater thermostat controlled on number 3
1 x fridge freezer
1 x kettle
1 x cooker
light bulbs
the emersion heater is only being turned on over night

our current usage for the previous 24 hours is £6.37
units are
R1 (day time i assume) 43.31
R2 (night time i assume) 36.05

R1 price 8.36p per unit?
R2 price 3.61p per unit?

readings have been taken for over a week and i can't get the usage
down. Tonight i have borrowed a calor gas heater off a friend so we
will see what the readings tell me tomorrow, but where am i using all
this power? do i have a leak?

Dorothy Bradbury wrote:
Sorry, forgot to mention that, wife prepares evening meal
maybe 2 or 3 times per week, at other times were not at home.
etc etc.

Thanks for the detailed reply, its really much appreciated. Youre
obviously a bit of an expert on the subject, i however am not so its
going to take me a little while to digest what youve said / the advice
youve given. Ill post a follow up to let all know how i get on.

Thanks again

This is very high usage.

I think so too.

It amounts to 3kW.

OK.

The fact that is high suggest that there is some sort of heavy off peak
usage.

I wonder if there is a sub main feed to a storage heater (in an out
building?)
Anti frost loft heaters.
Electric ceiling heaters spit curse.


There are none of what you suggest, no other electric heaters anywhere.

My wife thinks that "someone" else may be wired up to our place (theres
one cable running underground to the garage). There is another 6
houses behind our house, we're totally detatched from them, and are
shielded from each other by conifers (hence they cant see our
lighting). All the properties are owned by the same landlord, and i do
know that these 6 houses do NOT have electricity meters, apparently the
landlords own property is metered for them (or one house has a meter
for all six). I suppose it is possible that one or more is actually
wired into our meter, i asked the engineer when he visited if this was
a possibility, he said it wasn't, so i discounted the idea. Can anyone
tell me any different ?.

Ok just been put onto this by a friend and we are having a similar
problem though not the same.

So im not the only one then

Your appliances are similar to mine, but if anything you have less of
them, so in theory your bills should be less than mine, theyre not.

a couple of bills back i got one for £800+ then the next one was for
£700+ so i rang them up and changed to a card meter on 6th december.
it ate £50 in 5 days.

Bloody hell !!!!.


things started getting turned off.

I bet they did !!!.

our current usage for the previous 24 hours is £6.37

Thats ridiculously high for the appliances you are running.

Please let me know of the outcome of your investigations, ill do
likewise for you.

Good Luck.

On 31 Dec 2005 15:58:04 -0800, wrote:

I suppose it is possible that one or more is actually wired into our
meter, i asked the engineer when he visited if this was a
possibility, he said it wasn't, so i discounted the idea.

Without inspecting every inch of your wiring he cannot make such a
positive statement. Simple enough to test for though, just unplug and
switch off every single bit of mains electrical stuff you have and
look at the meter disc (hopefully you have a meter with a disc). It
should not be moving at all. There is an index mark on the edge, ring
that to the front with a small load (100W light will do) then switch
that off an make sure the disc doesn't move over the next few hours.
Fridges and freezers won't mind being off for a couple of hours
provided you don't open them. Might be worth doing this excercise
during the day and during the evening.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

wrote:
My wife thinks that "someone" else may be wired up to our place (theres
one cable running underground to the garage). There is another 6
houses behind our house, we're totally detatched from them, and are
shielded from each other by conifers (hence they cant see our
lighting). All the properties are owned by the same landlord, and i do
know that these 6 houses do NOT have electricity meters, apparently the
landlords own property is metered for them (or one house has a meter
for all six). I suppose it is possible that one or more is actually
wired into our meter, i asked the engineer when he visited if this was
a possibility, he said it wasn't, so i discounted the idea. Can anyone
tell me any different ?.

The easiest way to tell may be just to turn everything off and see if
the meter still goes around.

--
Matt Helliwell
matt at helliwell dot me dot uk
www.helliwell.me.uk

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:37:42 GMT, Matt Helliwell
wrote this (or the missive included this):

wrote:
My wife thinks that "someone" else may be wired up to our place (theres
one cable running underground to the garage). There is another 6
houses behind our house, we're totally detatched from them, and are
shielded from each other by conifers (hence they cant see our
lighting). All the properties are owned by the same landlord, and i do
know that these 6 houses do NOT have electricity meters, apparently the
landlords own property is metered for them (or one house has a meter
for all six). I suppose it is possible that one or more is actually
wired into our meter, i asked the engineer when he visited if this was
a possibility, he said it wasn't, so i discounted the idea. Can anyone
tell me any different ?.

The easiest way to tell may be just to turn everything off and see if
the meter still goes around.

Throw the mains switch during EastEnders and see if any of the
neighbours complain.


--
®óñ© © ² * ¹°°³

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 10:44:55 +0000, Ron Clark wrote:

Throw the mains switch during EastEnders and see if any of the
neighbours complain.

Deadenders is going down the ratings better to pick The Street or Emm.
B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:36:07 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 10:44:55 +0000, Ron Clark wrote:

Throw the mains switch during EastEnders and see if any of the
neighbours complain.

Deadenders is going down the ratings better to pick The Street or Emm.
B-)

Purely on technical merit of course :-)


--

..andy

It would be if we had a meter that "went round", we dont, its an
economy 7 meter, and digital at that.

There is a red led that flashes, i think it is related to how much
electricity were consuming, but not certain.

For anyone who knows about these systems, the meter is a "Horstmann
Radio Telemeter 2A", type NU077-124