Guys,

Just fitted a 3 halogen bulb row spotlight in a bedroom and when the
circuit was put back on the light came straight on - at the wall switch
I tried turning it off but the switch did nothing, the light just
stayed on.

The single light that was in the room before switched on/off fine.

My worry is the cabling is quite old and i've matched it up as follows
(Can you confirm this is fine) :-

2black stands - into neutral
3green/yellow strands - into earth
4red strands - into live.

For a start why on earth are there 4 strands of red !!....anyway i've
just about got them all into the plastic connecter block. The Black and
greens were a little easier.

Does the switch need changing in anyway ? - i'll need to check but I
believe there is a single strand of red cable going into the top (L1)
and then another out the bottom (L2)

I've fitted another of these fittings in another part of the house
where we have new cabling ie (blue, brown and green/yellow) and it
switches on & off fine.

Any ideas on what is causing this and what I need to check ?

TIA,
Mike.

In message .com,
mikeyw wrote


My worry is the cabling is quite old and i've matched it up as follows
(Can you confirm this is fine) :-

As a guess


2black stands - into neutral
correct

3green/yellow strands - into earth
correct

4red strands - into live.
incorrect

You have a live supply (red) coming in. You connect this to one side of
the switch (red) i.e. only two reds connected together.

You need another connection joining the two remaining reds
One red will be the return from the switch - the other will be the live
terminal of the lights.

Does the switch need changing in anyway ?

No

- i'll need to check but I
believe there is a single strand of red cable going into the top (L1)
and then another out the bottom (L2)

That's OK

Any ideas on what is causing this and what I need to check ?

Check your other light - you may find that there are 4 sets of
connections and not three
--
Alan
news2005 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

Any ideas on what is causing this and what I need to check ?

TIA,
Mike.

Classic DIY error

SWITCH OFF AT MAINS

2 blacks to neutral. 3 reds on a separate connector [theses are; live in
, live out and live to the wall switch.] remaining red to the L
connector on the fitting. At this stage you are now wishing that you had
marked the wires ' aren't you? Trial and rror unless you have a tester
/ meter I'm afraid. And when you have finished check that all the other
lights are still working!



--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Thanks Alan that's great - my only question now would be how would
identify which red strand goes where as all four are identical, however
I do recall that they are separeted into two sleeves ie 2 strands in
one sleeve and 2 in the other.

Can you elaborate on what goes where ?

Is it a case of taking one red from each sleeve into the live connector
socket and then joining the remaining two together with another
connection ?

I'll wait for your answer before trying anything !!

Regards,
Mike.

"mikeyw" wrote in message
oups.com...
Guys,

Just fitted a 3 halogen bulb row spotlight in a bedroom and when the
circuit was put back on the light came straight on - at the wall switch
I tried turning it off but the switch did nothing, the light just
stayed on.

The single light that was in the room before switched on/off fine.

My worry is the cabling is quite old and i've matched it up as follows
(Can you confirm this is fine) :-

2black stands - into neutral
3green/yellow strands - into earth
4red strands - into live.

For a start why on earth are there 4 strands of red !!....anyway i've
just about got them all into the plastic connecter block. The Black and
greens were a little easier.

Does the switch need changing in anyway ? - i'll need to check but I
believe there is a single strand of red cable going into the top (L1)
and then another out the bottom (L2)

I've fitted another of these fittings in another part of the house
where we have new cabling ie (blue, brown and green/yellow) and it
switches on & off fine.

Any ideas on what is causing this and what I need to check ?

TIA,
Mike.

Wasn't there a connecting diagram or an instruction leaflet?
As you said, why 4 reds for 3 lamps? Why are there 3 earths but only 2
neutrals? Intriguing!
If you've had difficulty inserting 4 wires into a constricted terminal
block, you ought to discard it and use a way of the next insulated gauge up.
The ceiling connection you called 'live' is supposed to be the 'switched
live' via the wall switch. The routes for your other colours seem fine.
But it sounds as if the wall switch is not interrupting as it must. Wow! It
should handle two wires using L1 and C, assuming it was not once configured
two-way with somewhere else!
Hope it's fixed in time for Xmas!

The 4,3 & 2 strands are what was coming out of the ceiling - the light
fitting is wired fine as you would expect. The problem is trying to
match up this 'old' wiring configuration with a modern light
fitting.....it looks like Alan may have established what the problem is
though.

In message
ilgate.org, Clive
Dive wrote

Any ideas on what is causing this and what I need to check ?

TIA,
Mike.

Classic DIY error

SWITCH OFF AT MAINS

2 blacks to neutral. 3 reds on a separate connector [theses are; live in
, live out and live to the wall switch.] remaining red to the L
connector on the fitting.

That would require 5 lives
live in
live out
live supply to switch
live return from switch
live to lights

The OP said he only had 4.

As a guess this is a spur connection rather than the lights being on a
ring.

Trial and rror unless you have a tester
/ meter I'm afraid.

The OP is lucky that the wires to the switch were BOTH red!

--
Alan
news2005 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

In message .com,
mikeyw wrote
Thanks Alan that's great - my only question now would be how would
identify which red strand goes where as all four are identical, however
I do recall that they are separeted into two sleeves ie 2 strands in
one sleeve and 2 in the other.

Can you elaborate on what goes where ?

Is it a case of taking one red from each sleeve into the live connector
socket and then joining the remaining two together with another
connection ?

I'll wait for your answer before trying anything !!


Other people are reading your original post in a different way to me so
it's worth waiting until you get some more answers and/or confirmation.

How many red wires come from your new light fitting?
Is there one red or three?

Are you referring to the wiring in a ceiling rose or are you writing
about the wiring/connectors inside your new light fitting?



--
Alan
news2005 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

"mikeyw" wrote in message
oups.com...
The 4,3 & 2 strands are what was coming out of the ceiling - the light
fitting is wired fine as you would expect. The problem is trying to
match up this 'old' wiring configuration with a modern light
fitting.....it looks like Alan may have established what the problem is
though.

Without disturbing any of the other essential wires, you should have made a
sketch and then just re-used the three conns that the original (working)
lamp had been connected to.
It was an upgrade swap.
The reds are typically: 3 continuous line all junctioned and 1 switched line
from wall switch.

"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message ilgate.org,
Clive Dive wrote

Any ideas on what is causing this and what I need to check ?

TIA,
Mike.

Classic DIY error

SWITCH OFF AT MAINS

2 blacks to neutral. 3 reds on a separate connector [theses are; live in
, live out and live to the wall switch.] remaining red to the L
connector on the fitting.

That would require 5 lives
live in
live out
live supply to switch
live return from switch
live to lights

The OP said he only had 4.

live return from switch and
live to lights
are the same thing, so 4 red wires would indeed be correct.


As a guess this is a spur connection rather than the lights being on a
ring.

Lights are supplied by radial circuits not rings

I would have expected there to be one red/red twin and earth and two red
black twin and earth cables. The red/red being the one that goes to the
switch.

Adam

On 24 Dec 2005 04:03:27 -0800, "mikeyw" wrote:

Thanks Alan that's great - my only question now would be how would
identify which red strand goes where as all four are identical, however
I do recall that they are separeted into two sleeves ie 2 strands in
one sleeve and 2 in the other.

Can you elaborate on what goes where ?

By the sound of it you have a "loop" in circuit with three cables
coming into the fitting. These are two cables with a black core, and a
red one with a bare earth wire (covered by the green/yellow sleeving)
between them, and one cable with two red cores and a bare earth wire
(covered by the green/yellow sleeving) between them.

One of the red/black cables is the supply into the fitting and the
other one is going to the next fitting in the chain.

The red/red cable is going to the light switch.

Is it a case of taking one red from each sleeve into the live connector
socket and then joining the remaining two together with another
connection ?

No.

You have joined up the black and green/yellow wires correctly but you
need to change the red ones around a bit.

Both red wires from the black/red cables need to be joined in a
terminal block along with ONE wire from the red/red cable making a
total of three wires in that connector. Insulate that connector with
some tape and tuck it well out of the way inside the fitting.

The other wire in the red/red cable needs to be connected to the live
terminal on the new light fitting.

Assuming you only have a single light switch on the plate the you can
connect the wires from the red/red cable either way round.

Don't forget to turn off the power at the main first!

John
--
John White
SCA Electrical, Manchester http://www.scaelectrical.co.uk/
Domestic and commercial electrical contractors

In article .com,
mikeyw wrote:
Just fitted a 3 halogen bulb row spotlight in a bedroom and when the
circuit was put back on the light came straight on - at the wall switch
I tried turning it off but the switch did nothing, the light just
stayed on.

The single light that was in the room before switched on/off fine.

My worry is the cabling is quite old and i've matched it up as follows
(Can you confirm this is fine) :-

2black stands - into neutral
3green/yellow strands - into earth
4red strands - into live.

For a start why on earth are there 4 strands of red !!....anyway i've
just about got them all into the plastic connecter block. The Black and
greens were a little easier.

You're lucky they used special cable with two reds for the switch circuit
otherwise your method of all reds and blacks together would have resulted
in the MCB tripping when you switched on the light.

I'd suggest a bit of basic learning before fiddling with electricity.
Now's a good time to ask for a decent DIY book.

--
*I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Well guys thanks for your help - I understand a lot clearer what is
going on now but still am unable to get the switch working.

To summarise here is how the fitting is wired.

On the fitting end there is a plastic connection block with obviously a
blue, green/yellow and brown cables connected as neutral, earth & live.

On the ceiling / circuit side I have 3 sleeves of cables - 2 of these
contain red, black & earth strands, the 3rd (the switch circuit) has 2
reds and an earth.

On the ceiling side of the connection block i have taken from the non
circuit cables - 2 reds into the live, 2 blacks into the neutral and 2
greens into earth. Earth also has the green cable from the switch
circuit.

So this just leaves the 2 red cables from switch circuit - I tried
Johns suggestion of putting one of these on each live side of the
connection block but again no joy.

Can anyone spot where i'm going wrong ? - maybe I need to try changing
which side of live the strands from the switch circuit go.

Sorry about this guys but i think we're very close to cracking it !!

Thanks again,
Mike.

On 24 Dec 2005 06:05:50 -0800,it is alleged that "mikeyw"
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Well guys thanks for your help - I understand a lot clearer what is
going on now but still am unable to get the switch working.

To summarise here is how the fitting is wired.

On the fitting end there is a plastic connection block with obviously a
blue, green/yellow and brown cables connected as neutral, earth & live.

On the ceiling / circuit side I have 3 sleeves of cables - 2 of these
contain red, black & earth strands, the 3rd (the switch circuit) has 2
reds and an earth.

On the ceiling side of the connection block i have taken from the non
circuit cables - 2 reds into the live, 2 blacks into the neutral and 2
greens into earth. Earth also has the green cable from the switch
circuit.

So this just leaves the 2 red cables from switch circuit - I tried
Johns suggestion of putting one of these on each live side of the
connection block but again no joy.

Can anyone spot where i'm going wrong ? - maybe I need to try changing
which side of live the strands from the switch circuit go.

Sorry about this guys but i think we're very close to cracking it !!

Thanks again,
Mike.

Yep, very close. But not close enough yet g

Blacks both into neutral terminal of the fixture

Green/yellow earths, all 3 into earth terminal of fixture

both reds from the red/black cables and ONE of the 2 reds from the
red/red cable into a separate connector (You may need to supply, just
to common them up), and the final red from the red/red cable into the
live (brown) on the fixture.


Essentially the red/black cables are a feed from the mains and a cable
on to the next room, the red/red is the one to the switch, you need to
take this to the switch, and then back to the fixture _from_ the
switch.

Hope this is clear, just take care with it:-)

--
Whenever people say "we mustn't be sentimental", you can take it
they are about to do something cruel. And if they add, "we must
be realistic", they mean they are going to make money out of it.
- Brigid Brophy

So chip what you are saying is that only 1 of the red stands goes into
the 'live' along with the brown from the fitting on the connection
block.

The remaining 3 red strands go into an additional connection block ie
separate to the one that came with the fitting ?

Does it matter how the 3 remaining reds go together ? - ie 2 at one end
and one at the other or is it just a case of linking all together so
effectively they can all go together ?

Am i right in what i'm saying ?

Jeez - I think i'll stick to mending Unix servers...a lot more
straightforward !!

mikeyw wrote:
[snip]

Jeez - I think i'll stick to mending Unix servers...a lot more
straightforward !!

lol you mess around with logic but you never applied logic before messing
with lighting.
--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

That would require 5 lives

NO IT WOULDN'T...READ IT AGAIN. ASSUMING WE ARE TALING ABOUT THE CABLES
AT THE CEILING...FORGET THE NEW LIGHT, THAT IS IRRELEVANT.
THERE MUST BE 3 TWINS AT THE CEILING...PAIR IN [l&n] , PAIR OUT [l&n]
PAIR
TO THE SITCH [TWIN RED] THUS 3 PAIRS. COMPRISING 4 REDS AND 2 BLACKS

live in
live out
live supply to switch
live return from switch
live to lights

The OP said he only had 4.

As a guess this is a spur connection rather than the lights being on a
ring.

On a ring? never seen that in 30+years! There again, every day is a
school day.



--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In message . com,
mikeyw wrote
So chip what you are saying is that only 1 of the red stands goes into
the 'live' along with the brown from the fitting on the connection
block.

The remaining 3 red strands go into an additional connection block ie
separate to the one that came with the fitting ?

Does it matter how the 3 remaining reds go together ? - ie 2 at one end
and one at the other or is it just a case of linking all together so
effectively they can all go together ?

Am i right in what i'm saying ?

Jeez - I think i'll stick to mending Unix servers...a lot more
straightforward !!


Does this help? (scroll down to the first and second diagrams towards
the middle of the web page)
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/lights_and_switches.htm

--
Alan
news2005 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:22:48 +0000 (UTC), "Clive Dive"
wrote:

|
|
| That would require 5 lives
|
| NO IT WOULDN'T...READ IT AGAIN. ASSUMING WE ARE TALING ABOUT THE CABLES
| AT THE CEILING...FORGET THE NEW LIGHT, THAT IS IRRELEVANT.
| THERE MUST BE 3 TWINS AT THE CEILING...PAIR IN [l&n] , PAIR OUT [l&n]
| PAIR
| TO THE SITCH [TWIN RED] THUS 3 PAIRS. COMPRISING 4 REDS AND 2 BLACKS
|
| live in
| live out
| live supply to switch
| live return from switch
| live to lights
|
| The OP said he only had 4.
|
| As a guess this is a spur connection rather than the lights being on a
| ring.
|
| On a ring? never seen that in 30+years! There again, every day is a
| school day.

Sh! I have a light, in the loft, run from a fused spur box off the
ring main.
--
Dave Fawthrop hyphen Hyphenologist.co.uk Register your mobile phone
IMEI *free* on http://www.menduk.org/. Keep the username and password.
If it gets stolen report it your provider to get it blocked. To hopefully
get it back report on http://www.menduk.org/ or 08701 123 123.

So this just leaves the 2 red cables from switch circuit - I tried
Johns suggestion of putting one of these on each live side of the
connection block but again no joy.

nearly there!

both reds from the red/black and one red from the twin redall into ONE
connector. NOW FORGET THIS CONNECTOR. OTHER RED FROM TWIN RED ONTO THE
BROWN TO THE FITTING AND THE 2 BLACKS TO THE BLUE OF THE FITTING. Job
done?




--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

On 24 Dec 2005 06:36:13 -0800,it is alleged that "mikeyw"
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

So chip what you are saying is that only 1 of the red stands goes into
the 'live' along with the brown from the fitting on the connection
block.

The remaining 3 red strands go into an additional connection block ie
separate to the one that came with the fitting ?

Does it matter how the 3 remaining reds go together ? - ie 2 at one end
and one at the other or is it just a case of linking all together so
effectively they can all go together ?

Am i right in what i'm saying ?

Jeez - I think i'll stick to mending Unix servers...a lot more
straightforward !!

Pretty close, no it doesn't matter *how* they go in (provided it's
safe, but what is important is that one of the strands and ONE only be
from the red/red cable)

--
Whenever people say "we mustn't be sentimental", you can take it
they are about to do something cruel. And if they add, "we must
be realistic", they mean they are going to make money out of it.
- Brigid Brophy

Thanks guys - most of you did suggest the correct answer I probbly
struggled to follow what you were getting at.

The thing that threw me was requiring a separate connector for the
three reds - once I got my head around this it all fell into place.

You're right not the sort of thing to mess around with unless you are
knowledgeable in electrics but i'd have had to pay an electrician
probably £40 just to put the fitting up.

Big thank for all your help everything working fine now.

Mike

See diagrams here

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects...d_switches.htm

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 17:18:02 +0000, Owain
wrote:

| Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| | On a ring? never seen that in 30+years! There again, every day isa
| | school day.
| Sh! I have a light, in the loft, run from a fused spur box off the
| ring main.
|
| I expect it's actually spurred off a ring final circuit :-)

No its a spur box and a 13 amp socket off the ring main :-)
--
Dave Fawthrop hyphen Hyphenologist.co.uk Register your mobile phone
IMEI *free* on http://www.menduk.org/. Keep the username and password.
If it gets stolen report it your provider to get it blocked. To hopefully
get it back report on http://www.menduk.org/ or 08701 123 123.