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John
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)

I do many things DIY but joinery isn't one of them so I got a joiner in to
fit two sets of bi-fold doors for us, which he fitted by hinging (sp?) the
doors on the side just as you would do with any other door.

I have to admit that I didn't realize that this was "wrong" as we've never
had bi-fold doors before but when I went into a neighbour's house recently,
their bi-fold doors ran in a track along the top of the opening and a sort
of pivot at the top and bottom of the door at the "fixed" side (iyswim). My
wife then rang a friend and found out that hers also ran in a track.

I went to a local timber place to look at the doors they had on display and
they were all in tracks too and the guy said that that was the correct way
to fit them - any joiner should know that, he said - and it should only take
about 20-30 minutes to fit. So, I bought the track and diplomatically
suggested to the joiner [1] that perhaps he may have done it wrong and would
he please fit the doors on the track.

Next thing, he's ringing us saying that it took him *3 hours* to fit (at
£10/hour, mind you), the track needed "opening out a bit and oiling" before
it would work smoothly. And, of course, the doors now have "cut-outs" where
he located the hinges, that he shouldn't have fitted in the first place, and
has now removed.

It's not the first mistake either. He botched up some skirting and we had to
tell him it was unacceptable. He didn't seem too bothered when we asked him
to change it - he just cheerily said "OK" and got on with it. But there's
more work to do and therein lies the problem.

Explanation of [1] - I've known the joiners dad for 25 years and he's a good
friend of mine. He's done good work in his dad's house, so that was good
enough for me. Trouble now is that if I complain or fire him off (which I
feel like doing), that's going to cause hassle between me and his dad and I
don't want that.

What would you do?

TIA,
John.


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Lurch
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)

On or around Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:05:31 +0100, "John"
mused:

What would you do?

I'd have done the job myself in the first place. As the old saying
goes, "if you want a job doing properly, do it yourself".

Obviously that doesn't help you much.

If I was in your situation and if he really is as incompetent as you
say I would have no problem with telling him straight.
--
| Stuart @ SJW Electrical. Please Reply to group. |
  #3   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)


John wrote:
I do many things DIY but joinery isn't one of them so I got a joiner in to
fit two sets of bi-fold doors for us, which he fitted by hinging (sp?) the
doors on the side just as you would do with any other door.

I have to admit that I didn't realize that this was "wrong" as we've never
had bi-fold doors before but when I went into a neighbour's house recently,
their bi-fold doors ran in a track along the top of the opening and a sort
of pivot at the top and bottom of the door at the "fixed" side (iyswim). My
wife then rang a friend and found out that hers also ran in a track.


snip

This is very interesting, as finished installing bi-fold doors (Wickes
Edwardian) a couple of hours ago and am completely dissatisfied with
the result and consequently am wondering about how to hang them in the
same way as your joiner did first time!

Snags with the pivot fitting are the large gaps all round the frame,
and the doors do not fold flat into the door opening. One of the ideas
behind using bifold was to 'hide' the open doors inside the rather
thick wall the doorway goes through.

Wish I'd looked around more before starting!!

Anyway any ideas about achieving a more satisfactory result would be
most welcome.

If they could be hung so that they normally lie flat in the opening or
could be swung back and fold against the wall outside the room (perhaps
via some sort of double direction 'restaurant' hinge) to leave the full
door frame width clear, then that would be brilliant.

  #4   Report Post  
Chris Bacon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)

John wrote:
I do many things DIY but joinery isn't one of them so I got a joiner in to
fit two sets of bi-fold doors for us, which he fitted by hinging (sp?) the
doors on the side just as you would do with any other door.

I have to admit that I didn't realize that this was "wrong"


Wrong? Why is it wrong?


as we've never
had bi-fold doors before but when I went into a neighbour's house recently,
their bi-fold doors ran in a track along the top of the opening and a sort
of pivot at the top and bottom of the door at the "fixed" side (iyswim). My
wife then rang a friend and found out that hers also ran in a track.


Some are hung like that - some are not.


I went to a local timber place to look at the doors they had on display and
they were all in tracks too and the guy said that that was the correct way
to fit them - any joiner should know that, he said - and it should only take
about 20-30 minutes to fit. So, I bought the track and diplomatically
suggested to the joiner [1] that perhaps he may have done it wrong and would
he please fit the doors on the track.

Next thing, he's ringing us saying that it took him *3 hours* to fit (at
£10/hour, mind you), the track needed "opening out a bit and oiling" before
it would work smoothly. And, of course, the doors now have "cut-outs" where
he located the hinges, that he shouldn't have fitted in the first place, and
has now removed.


A tenner an hour? You're trolling.
  #5   Report Post  
John
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)


"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
John wrote:
I do many things DIY but joinery isn't one of them so I got a joiner in
to
fit two sets of bi-fold doors for us, which he fitted by hinging (sp?)
the
doors on the side just as you would do with any other door.

I have to admit that I didn't realize that this was "wrong"


Wrong? Why is it wrong?


as we've never
had bi-fold doors before but when I went into a neighbour's house
recently,
their bi-fold doors ran in a track along the top of the opening and a
sort
of pivot at the top and bottom of the door at the "fixed" side (iyswim).
My
wife then rang a friend and found out that hers also ran in a track.


Some are hung like that - some are not.


I went to a local timber place to look at the doors they had on display
and
they were all in tracks too and the guy said that that was the correct
way
to fit them - any joiner should know that, he said - and it should only
take
about 20-30 minutes to fit. So, I bought the track and diplomatically
suggested to the joiner [1] that perhaps he may have done it wrong and
would he please fit the doors on the track.

Next thing, he's ringing us saying that it took him *3 hours* to fit (at
£10/hour, mind you), the track needed "opening out a bit and oiling"
before it would work smoothly. And, of course, the doors now have
"cut-outs" where he located the hinges, that he shouldn't have fitted in
the first place, and has now removed.


A tenner an hour? You're trolling.


Why do you think I'm trolling? As I said before, I've worked with (and been
friends with) his dad (and so, by association, with him) for about 25 years
(joiner is 26) and he's doing this as a foreigner, not self-employed rates.
He is a time served joiner and he's fitted a new kitchen for us which is
absolutely brilliant. I have no qualms about his kitchen fitting skills at
all, which is why we then asked him to do the other jobs.

However, when he attempted the skirting (replace as and where necessary),
everything seemed to go to ****. One wall of the back bedroom never had a
skirting but a pipe box. When that (and the redundant pipes) were ripped
out, he only needed to provide a skirting to match the existing three walls.
However, for some strange reason he decided to "box in" (the perfectly
alright) skirting on the wall opposite (as per photos 1071, 1067, 1064 and
1074).

The wall that used to have a pipe box was given a 5"x1" (or whatever)
"plank" - not even proper skirting such as Taurus or Lamb's Tongue - as per
photo 1069. And photo 1070 is replacing a section of skirting in the front
bedroom.

Hence my apprehension regarding the bi-fold doors. My dillema is as much a
moral one as a physical one - I don't want to upset my mate of 26 years but
neither do I want crappy work like this.

Would you pay £10 per hour for that?

Photo's here http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/john846729/my_photos

John.




  #6   Report Post  
mrcheerful
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)


"John" wrote in message
...
I do many things DIY but joinery isn't one of them so I got a joiner in to
fit two sets of bi-fold doors for


If he is only charging ten pounds an
hour, then obviously you have not found a first rate joiner/carpenter, but a
chippie. A good carpenter will charge about three times that per hour (or
more).

mrcheerful


  #7   Report Post  
Ian Clowes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)



John wrote:

Explanation of [1] - I've known the joiners dad for 25 years and he's a good
friend of mine. He's done good work in his dad's house, so that was good
enough for me. Trouble now is that if I complain or fire him off (which I
feel like doing), that's going to cause hassle between me and his dad and I
don't want that.

What would you do?


Hi John

I think that at the heart of it, kitchen fitting and general joinery are
quite different things, unless he's fitting bespoke, solid wood
kitchens. Some of the tools are the same, but I think much of being a
good joiner is learning the various tips, tricks and almost nuances that
make doors swing properly, scribing rather than mitering skirting, etc.
Modern kitchen fitting has its own tricky parts, but they're different
ones.

The skirting looks so odd it's hard to believe there hasn't been some
misunderstanding. When you said 'we'd like this wall to look like that
one' has he got the idea that thinks he's been asked to make a boxed
section all around? Is it worth revisiting the plans, or popping down
to Jewson with him to pick out what you actually want/need?

Whatever you are, you'll have a different dynamic in the relationship
than he does with his dad. What type of person are you? Do you give
precise directions that some people hate because they squash their
creative spirit, but everyone grudgingly knows where they're going? Or
a conceptual type that kind of knows the desired endpoint but has no
particular plan or care as to how you get there, and also think its fine
(and indeed appropriate) to adjust the job as it goes?

Is the lad's heart in the work? Without knowing the circumstances I can
imagine he feels obliged to help out where you/his dad have asked but
may be well aware himself that this type of work isn't his forte. Are
you sure it'll trouble his dad? He might be saying to his dad every
night that he's looking forward to the end of this job. Did you have to
mention this more than once to get him along, perhaps masking an
unstated belief on their side that he'd be better off not involved?

At it's simplest, assuming he has regular work elsewhere, if you were in
his (relatively) young shoes would you rather be earing an extra £10 per
hour, or enjoying yourself somewhere else? Does he have the time to
make a good job, or is he having to make do with what he can grad fron
Do It All on the way home?

A couple of ways out:

- Tell him you're rethinking the designs, and could do with a break to
get your thoughts straight before carrying on. You could use this to
test if he's really interested in carrying on in (say) a month, or feels
his own work might get busier (hence letting him slip away at his own
choice). If you do this you shouldn't keep him hanging on for the work
(although if he's desperate for the money there are ramifications to all
get out plans...).

- Ask him straight if he feels up to finishing the job and/or is getting
satisfaction from it. It might just clear the air all around, expose
issues, etc.

- Get him and his dad over one w/e to motor through the planning and
execution of the skirting (and a couple of beers)?

- Ask him to put fitted (Sharps style) bedroom furniture in. Sounds
like he would make a good job of that, and all would have a happy ending
to mask any earlier troubles.

Lot's of mutually incompatiable thoughs in the above. As you know all
involved better you'll hopefully be able to pick at least one useful
thing from it.

HTH
IanC
  #8   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:23:26 +0100, "John" wrote:


Next thing, he's ringing us saying that it took him *3 hours* to fit (at
£10/hour, mind you), the track needed "opening out a bit and oiling"
before it would work smoothly. And, of course, the doors now have
"cut-outs" where he located the hinges, that he shouldn't have fitted in
the first place, and has now removed.


A tenner an hour? You're trolling.


Why do you think I'm trolling? As I said before, I've worked with (and been
friends with) his dad (and so, by association, with him) for about 25 years
(joiner is 26) and he's doing this as a foreigner, not self-employed rates.
He is a time served joiner and he's fitted a new kitchen for us which is
absolutely brilliant. I have no qualms about his kitchen fitting skills at
all, which is why we then asked him to do the other jobs.

However, when he attempted the skirting (replace as and where necessary),
everything seemed to go to ****. One wall of the back bedroom never had a
skirting but a pipe box. When that (and the redundant pipes) were ripped
out, he only needed to provide a skirting to match the existing three walls.
However, for some strange reason he decided to "box in" (the perfectly
alright) skirting on the wall opposite (as per photos 1071, 1067, 1064 and
1074).

The wall that used to have a pipe box was given a 5"x1" (or whatever)
"plank" - not even proper skirting such as Taurus or Lamb's Tongue - as per
photo 1069. And photo 1070 is replacing a section of skirting in the front
bedroom.

Hence my apprehension regarding the bi-fold doors. My dillema is as much a
moral one as a physical one - I don't want to upset my mate of 26 years but
neither do I want crappy work like this.

Would you pay £10 per hour for that?

Photo's here http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/john846729/my_photos

John.


There's a few clues here but some missing information as well:

- He's 26, so although a "time served joiner" may not have had the
business experience on what jobs like this should cost when he did the
kitchen but now does rather more?

- He did previous good work but this job is rubbish

- He appeared to stretch out the work perhaps in order to get more
money.


This, to me suggests on the face of it that perhaps he's feeling short
changed. £15-20 per hour would be a more reasonable rate for quality
work.

The unknowns a

- Perhaps his dad leaned on him to do the job as a favour for a friend
(implying low price)

- Perhaps he didn't want to do the job but felt obliged

- Perhaps he had a row with wife/girlfriend.

etc. etc.


Clearly the job is unsatisfactory. As I see it, there are four
choices apart from doing it yourself:

- Chalk it up to experience and get another joiner in to do the job on
a commercial basis. Then you can be hard about it if need be.

- Talk to the son as though it's a commercial job and tell him you're
not happy.

- Talk to the son on the basis that you know it was a son of a friend
job, but that you aren't happy. Be prepared to pay him for the
additional time to do a proper job, or ask him for an estimate on how
long it would take and meet him part way on the cost. This gives
him the opportunity to offer to fix at no extra cost or to indicate
that the price wasn't right in the first place. There may well be a
moral issue on his side as well, so if he agrees to fix for nothing or
at some level between that and commercial price, I think that that is
a satisfactory outcome. Everybody should feel happy at the end of the
day.

- Talk to his father about it. The risk there is that if the son did
the work under some level of pressure from his father (which could be
the case), you will have made the situation worse. The son might do
it even more grudgingly (if that was the issue) or not at all. Then
you have created an awkward situation for your friend.


What should have happened is that the job should have been done on an
arm's length basis (whether for cash or not) in the first place. Now
I feel that the options are to drop it with him and get somebody else
to do it and say nothing more to the father or son, or to talk to the
son. Talking to the father is not the way to go, IMHO.






--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #9   Report Post  
John
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)


"Ian Clowes" wrote in message
...


John wrote:

Explanation of [1] - I've known the joiners dad for 25 years and he's a
good
friend of mine. He's done good work in his dad's house, so that was good
enough for me. Trouble now is that if I complain or fire him off (which I
feel like doing), that's going to cause hassle between me and his dad and
I
don't want that.

What would you do?


Hi John

I think that at the heart of it, kitchen fitting and general joinery are
quite different things, unless he's fitting bespoke, solid wood
kitchens. Some of the tools are the same, but I think much of being a
good joiner is learning the various tips, tricks and almost nuances that
make doors swing properly, scribing rather than mitering skirting, etc.
Modern kitchen fitting has its own tricky parts, but they're different
ones.

The skirting looks so odd it's hard to believe there hasn't been some
misunderstanding. When you said 'we'd like this wall to look like that
one' has he got the idea that thinks he's been asked to make a boxed
section all around? Is it worth revisiting the plans, or popping down
to Jewson with him to pick out what you actually want/need?

Whatever you are, you'll have a different dynamic in the relationship
than he does with his dad. What type of person are you? Do you give
precise directions that some people hate because they squash their
creative spirit, but everyone grudgingly knows where they're going? Or
a conceptual type that kind of knows the desired endpoint but has no
particular plan or care as to how you get there, and also think its fine
(and indeed appropriate) to adjust the job as it goes?

Is the lad's heart in the work? Without knowing the circumstances I can
imagine he feels obliged to help out where you/his dad have asked but
may be well aware himself that this type of work isn't his forte. Are
you sure it'll trouble his dad? He might be saying to his dad every
night that he's looking forward to the end of this job. Did you have to
mention this more than once to get him along, perhaps masking an
unstated belief on their side that he'd be better off not involved?

At it's simplest, assuming he has regular work elsewhere, if you were in
his (relatively) young shoes would you rather be earing an extra £10 per
hour, or enjoying yourself somewhere else? Does he have the time to
make a good job, or is he having to make do with what he can grad fron
Do It All on the way home?

A couple of ways out:

- Tell him you're rethinking the designs, and could do with a break to
get your thoughts straight before carrying on. You could use this to
test if he's really interested in carrying on in (say) a month, or feels
his own work might get busier (hence letting him slip away at his own
choice). If you do this you shouldn't keep him hanging on for the work
(although if he's desperate for the money there are ramifications to all
get out plans...).

- Ask him straight if he feels up to finishing the job and/or is getting
satisfaction from it. It might just clear the air all around, expose
issues, etc.

- Get him and his dad over one w/e to motor through the planning and
execution of the skirting (and a couple of beers)?

- Ask him to put fitted (Sharps style) bedroom furniture in. Sounds
like he would make a good job of that, and all would have a happy ending
to mask any earlier troubles.

Lot's of mutually incompatiable thoughs in the above. As you know all
involved better you'll hopefully be able to pick at least one useful
thing from it.

HTH
IanC


Thanks very much for that Ian - a good reply and lots of food for thought
there.

Before asking him to do the job I jokingly asked his dad "Is your lad a good
joiner? Would you let him loose in your house?" He laughed and invited me
round for a beer that night to see the kitchen and wardrobes that his lad
had recently finished fitting for him.

When I saw his work I was well impressed and on the strength of that, I
asked him if he was interested in doing our job - a victorian mid-terraced
that's being completely renovated (rewire, replumb, new bathroom, CH etc).
"No problem", he said, "I'll do whatever you want for £10/hour".

The skirting looks so odd it's hard to believe there hasn't been some
misunderstanding. When you said 'we'd like this wall to look like that
one' has he got the idea that thinks he's been asked to make a boxed
section all around?


I thought the phrase "replace skirting as and where necessary" was fairly
self-explanatory. By the time he started the job the old pipes and pipe box
in the back bedroom had been ripped out so he was looking at three
"normally" skirted walls (with 3" skirting) and one wall with nothing on
that needed matching to the others, so I haven't got a clue as to how he
could think he was asked to make a boxed section all round.

I now think that you're correct in saying that kitchen fitting is different
from other areas of joinery/carpentry and I can only assume that the local
(big) building firm have him fitting kitchens all day long.

Anyway, thanks again for your comments Ian (and everyone else, of course)

John.


  #10   Report Post  
Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)

In article , John
wrote:

Next thing, he's ringing us saying that it took him *3 hours* to fit (at
£10/hour, mind you), the track needed "opening out a bit and oiling" before
it would work smoothly. And, of course, the doors now have "cut-outs" where
he located the hinges, that he shouldn't have fitted in the first place, and
has now removed.


Well there may be the problem. £10/hr is not an viable rate for a
craftsman. I would be surprised to find anyone working for £10 an hour self
employed.

What would you do?


Pay a craftsman to do it in future.

--
AJL


  #11   Report Post  
John
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)


"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
. ..
In article , John
wrote:

Next thing, he's ringing us saying that it took him *3 hours* to fit (at
£10/hour, mind you), the track needed "opening out a bit and oiling"
before
it would work smoothly. And, of course, the doors now have "cut-outs"
where
he located the hinges, that he shouldn't have fitted in the first place,
and
has now removed.


Well there may be the problem. £10/hr is not an viable rate for a
craftsman. I would be surprised to find anyone working for £10 an hour
self
employed.

What would you do?


Pay a craftsman to do it in future.

--
AJL


He's not doing this at self-employed rates. He works full time for a local
building firm and he's doing this as a foreigner at "mates-rates" because
I've worked - and been friends with - his dad (and by association, with him
[he's 26]) for 25 years - hence my moral, as well as physical, problem!

John.


  #12   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fitting Bi-fold doors - help (long)


wrote:
John wrote:
I do many things DIY but joinery isn't one of them so I got a joiner in to
fit two sets of bi-fold doors for us, which he fitted by hinging (sp?) the
doors on the side just as you would do with any other door.

I have to admit that I didn't realize that this was "wrong" as we've never
had bi-fold doors before but when I went into a neighbour's house recently,
their bi-fold doors ran in a track along the top of the opening and a sort
of pivot at the top and bottom of the door at the "fixed" side (iyswim). My
wife then rang a friend and found out that hers also ran in a track.


snip

This is very interesting, as finished installing bi-fold doors (Wickes
Edwardian) a couple of hours ago and am completely dissatisfied with
the result and consequently am wondering about how to hang them in the
same way as your joiner did first time!

Snags with the pivot fitting are the large gaps all round the frame,
and the doors do not fold flat into the door opening. One of the ideas
behind using bifold was to 'hide' the open doors inside the rather
thick wall the doorway goes through.


Yeah, I ditched all the tracking and fitted two bifold doors (ie 4
panels) to an opening as though they were normal doors with no gaps.
You can open the centre two panels right back flat against the outer
panels for a normal door sized opening or you can open all four panels
but they don't open flat against the wall in our case.

Flush door bolts e.g.
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18473&id=18988
at the top and bottom hold 3 of the 4 panels firmly closed. Make sure
there's actually enough wood in the doors to take them.

MBQ

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