UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Michael Chare
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

On the downstairs windows, my house has a row of vertical bricks above the
windows, rather than an identifiable lintel! I am wondering how much the bricks
are supported by the metal window frames, which will be quite strong as there
are vertical bars.

Is this a common arrangement? Do I have to be particularly careful about any
replacement windows that I might want to fit?

This applies to the original windows. Where the house has been extended there
are visible concrete lintels.

The top part of the house is tile hung block work, where the presence or absence
of lintel's is not immediately obvious.


--

Michael Chare


  #2   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

Michael Chare wrote:

On the downstairs windows, my house has a row of vertical bricks above the
windows, rather than an identifiable lintel!


There is much popular misunderstanding around lintels and brickwork.

Firstly there are many houses with no support at all for bricks above
openings, and in almost all cases it hasnt gone anywhere. Brickwork
over small openings is almost - but not quite - completely self
supporting. Most unsupported brickwork above is completely self
supporting, but there will be a triangle of bricks that is only 99.9%
self supporting, and can very occasionally fail. In the cases where it
does fail, one almost always sees telltale cracks for a while before
any fall could occur, so even failing brickwork is not likely to drop.

The worst example I saw was a large unsupported opening of IIRC
somewhere around 10 feet, with only the slimmest of pillars at each
end, on 4" walls. These 9" pillars gave little sideways restraint, the
4" walls likewise, and it is to a large extent the sideways restraint
that makes the brickwork above support itself. Even that held up for 15
years before it started to crack. Porper support was eventually
installed.

Usually soldier courses have hidden support. If they dont, the risk is
tiny, but not zero. The risk then is from needing to repair, and from
falling bricks, not structural collapse, as it is only a triangle of
bricks that falls in the worst case.


I am wondering how much the bricks
are supported by the metal window frames, which will be quite strong as there
are vertical bars.

Is this a common arrangement?


Window frames used to support brickwork are not uncommon, so its
possible.

When no lintel is visible, there is normally some form of support
present.


NT

  #3   Report Post  
urchaidh
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

Michael Chare wrote:
On the downstairs windows, my house has a row of vertical bricks above the
windows, rather than an identifiable lintel! I am wondering how much the bricks
are supported by the metal window frames, which will be quite strong as there
are vertical bars.


Are you sure the bricks are vertical? More likeley they will be a very
shallow arch. Look for the spacing between the vertical joints
increasing towards the top, or for the gap between the arch and the
course above decreasing towards the middle.

The interior walls on my house, c. 1900, use arches for doors with a
rise of little more than an inch over the door width (The exterior is
stone). The brickwork was quite stable with the standards removed.

Is this a common arrangement? Do I have to be particularly careful about any
replacement windows that I might want to fit?


I think it's pretty common. If the bricks and mortar are in good
condition and it is indeed an arch then it shouldn't put any load on
the window.

  #4   Report Post  
news
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

urchaidh wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On the downstairs windows, my house has a row of vertical bricks
above the windows, rather than an identifiable lintel! I am
wondering how much the bricks are supported by the metal window
frames, which will be quite strong as there are vertical bars.


Are you sure the bricks are vertical?


soldier course in front of a lintol, usually a prestressed conctrete jobbie.

FWIW a BCO passed a 3' 6" newly cut door opening in a 100 year old 9"
wall which was supported by 2 lenghts of 4" x 2" just to be on the safe side



  #5   Report Post  
Pete Cross
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

This talk of support has got me wondering about our house, it's a red brick
1930's semi with double bay windows on the front, if we took the lower bay
window out to replace it, how would the curved section of brick above it (
between the two floors ) be supported ?

Pete






  #6   Report Post  
Lobster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

Michael Chare wrote:
On the downstairs windows, my house has a row of vertical bricks above the
windows, rather than an identifiable lintel! I am wondering how much the bricks
are supported by the metal window frames, which will be quite strong as there
are vertical bars.

Is this a common arrangement? Do I have to be particularly careful about any
replacement windows that I might want to fit?


See http://tinyurl.com/8toaq - this came up here quite recently

David
  #7   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame


urchaidh wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On the downstairs windows, my house has a row of vertical bricks above the
windows, rather than an identifiable lintel! I am wondering how much the bricks
are supported by the metal window frames, which will be quite strong as there
are vertical bars.


Are you sure the bricks are vertical? More likeley they will be a very
shallow arch. Look for the spacing between the vertical joints


Or, just as likely, there's a steel lintel behind with a lip on which
the vertical bricks rest.

MBQ

  #8   Report Post  
Peter Taylor
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame


"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
On the downstairs windows, my house has a row of vertical bricks above the
windows, rather than an identifiable lintel! I am wondering how much the
bricks
are supported by the metal window frames, which will be quite strong as
there
are vertical bars.

Is this a common arrangement? Do I have to be particularly careful about
any
replacement windows that I might want to fit?

This applies to the original windows. Where the house has been extended
there
are visible concrete lintels.

The top part of the house is tile hung block work, where the presence or
absence
of lintel's is not immediately obvious.


If your house is 1950's, 60's or early 70's (i.e. before Catnic lintels were
invented) it's almost 100% certain the soldier courses (vertical bricks) are
supported using reinforced concrete "boot" lintels. These are a normal
rectangle shape concrete beam 6" or 9" high x 4½" wide, sitting flush with
the interior face of the wall under the inner skin, with a projecting L
section 3" high boot section on the outside face. Sometimes this goes right
through, under the outer skin, so you can see the face of the concrete on
the outside, but often it just closes the cavity above the window and has
galvanised wire ties cast in, which the bricklayer builds into the joints of
the soldier course.

These ties often rust and break (especially if these is no cavity tray
damp-course or weep holes over the boot section). The rust cracks the
joints of the soldier course, the wire breaks and the weight of the bricks
ends up sitting on the window frame.

Repairing cracked soldier courses is simple. There is no need to remove the
concrete lintel. If not badly misplaced, the existing brickwork can also
often be retained and held back using stainless steel retro wall ties
chemically anchored into the concrete at 300mm centres, and then just
repointed. If the brickwork is badly affected it will need rebuilding using
similar ties, and it may be necessary on wider openings to use one or two
Strongboy props to support the brickwork above. The soldiers can normally
rest on steel or timber window frames for temporary support, but PVC windows
will sag, so extra temporary support is needed. If the soldier course is
rebuilt it is wise to build in a new cavity tray dpc over the boot, and form
weep holes for any water in the cavity to drain away.

Peter

  #9   Report Post  
John Rumm
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

Pete Cross wrote:

This talk of support has got me wondering about our house, it's a red brick
1930's semi with double bay windows on the front, if we took the lower bay
window out to replace it, how would the curved section of brick above it (
between the two floors ) be supported ?


By Acrows... assuming you want to keep the upstairs bay upstairs.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #10   Report Post  
Michael Chare
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

"Peter Taylor" wrote in message
...

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
On the downstairs windows, my house has a row of vertical bricks above the
windows, rather than an identifiable lintel! I am wondering how much the
bricks
are supported by the metal window frames, which will be quite strong as
there
are vertical bars.

Is this a common arrangement? Do I have to be particularly careful about
any
replacement windows that I might want to fit?

This applies to the original windows. Where the house has been extended
there
are visible concrete lintels.

The top part of the house is tile hung block work, where the presence or
absence
of lintel's is not immediately obvious.


If your house is 1950's, 60's or early 70's (i.e. before Catnic lintels were
invented) it's almost 100% certain the soldier courses (vertical bricks) are
supported using reinforced concrete "boot" lintels. These are a normal
rectangle shape concrete beam 6" or 9" high x 4½" wide, sitting flush with
the interior face of the wall under the inner skin, with a projecting L
section 3" high boot section on the outside face. Sometimes this goes right
through, under the outer skin, so you can see the face of the concrete on
the outside, but often it just closes the cavity above the window and has
galvanised wire ties cast in, which the bricklayer builds into the joints of
the soldier course.

These ties often rust and break (especially if these is no cavity tray
damp-course or weep holes over the boot section). The rust cracks the
joints of the soldier course, the wire breaks and the weight of the bricks
ends up sitting on the window frame.

Repairing cracked soldier courses is simple. There is no need to remove the
concrete lintel. If not badly misplaced, the existing brickwork can also
often be retained and held back using stainless steel retro wall ties
chemically anchored into the concrete at 300mm centres, and then just
repointed. If the brickwork is badly affected it will need rebuilding using
similar ties, and it may be necessary on wider openings to use one or two
Strongboy props to support the brickwork above. The soldiers can normally
rest on steel or timber window frames for temporary support, but PVC windows
will sag, so extra temporary support is needed. If the soldier course is
rebuilt it is wise to build in a new cavity tray dpc over the boot, and form
weep holes for any water in the cavity to drain away.


Thanks for all the replies. Yes the house was built in the '50s and there is a
DPC about the soldiers.
in some cases there is a slight crack between the end soldier and the horizontal
bricks.

I did change a door frame which also has soldiers above it. I never really
thought about how the bricks were supported at the time. I should have looked
more closely at the lintel arrangement.

--

Michael Chare





  #11   Report Post  
Peter Taylor
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Pete Cross wrote:

This talk of support has got me wondering about our house, it's a red
brick
1930's semi with double bay windows on the front, if we took the lower
bay
window out to replace it, how would the curved section of brick above it
(
between the two floors ) be supported ?


By Acrows... assuming you want to keep the upstairs bay upstairs.


Yes, that's OK while the work is being done, but it's not a permanent
solution. I have been called in on many occasions to investigate why bay
window structures have shifted or partially collapsed after replacing
windows, and it's virtually always because the window fitters didn't do the
job properly.

Sometimes the bay structure is supported on the first floor joists, which
cantilever out over a beam in line with the main house wall - this is ideal.
You can sometimes check this by finding the direction of the first floor
joists, although you can't confirm it unless you lift the floorboards in the
bay. It's more common to find the bay structure is supported by the timber
posts in the ground floor windows, and then it's necessary to work out how
to support it permanently BEFORE the windows are removed. Window fitters
are usually not equipped, mentally or materially, to do this.

No modern window is designed to take any structural load. PVC window
manufacturers have worked out how to do it using aluminium structural posts
with jacking plates, which fit into the junctions between the frames and
concealed by PVC sheet, but the actual fitters are paid per window and
hardly ever bother to do this properly. There are very many claims and
court cases over this.

Peter

  #12   Report Post  
Tony Bryer
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

In article , Peter
Taylor wrote:
No modern window is designed to take any structural load. PVC window
manufacturers have worked out how to do it using aluminium structural posts
with jacking plates, which fit into the junctions between the frames and
concealed by PVC sheet, but the actual fitters are paid per window and
hardly ever bother to do this properly. There are very many claims and
court cases over this.


Check out http://www.expertexpert.com/bays.htm for more on this.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]


  #13   Report Post  
Michael Chare
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

"Peter Taylor" wrote in message
...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Pete Cross wrote:

This talk of support has got me wondering about our house, it's a red
brick
1930's semi with double bay windows on the front, if we took the lower
bay
window out to replace it, how would the curved section of brick above it
(
between the two floors ) be supported ?


By Acrows... assuming you want to keep the upstairs bay upstairs.


Yes, that's OK while the work is being done, but it's not a permanent
solution. I have been called in on many occasions to investigate why bay
window structures have shifted or partially collapsed after replacing
windows, and it's virtually always because the window fitters didn't do the
job properly.

Sometimes the bay structure is supported on the first floor joists, which
cantilever out over a beam in line with the main house wall - this is ideal.
You can sometimes check this by finding the direction of the first floor
joists, although you can't confirm it unless you lift the floorboards in the
bay. It's more common to find the bay structure is supported by the timber
posts in the ground floor windows, and then it's necessary to work out how
to support it permanently BEFORE the windows are removed. Window fitters
are usually not equipped, mentally or materially, to do this.

No modern window is designed to take any structural load. PVC window
manufacturers have worked out how to do it using aluminium structural posts
with jacking plates, which fit into the junctions between the frames and
concealed by PVC sheet, but the actual fitters are paid per window and
hardly ever bother to do this properly. There are very many claims and
court cases over this.


If you have any further info on the likely success of court cases I would be
very interested. My mother is trying to sell a bungalow where the wood/metal
frames were replace with plastic ones almost 10 years ago. The windows are
large, the potential purchasers surveyor has pointed out that there are cracks
above the windows which have likely occured because the plastic frames are not
as strong as the previous ones. The window installer is still trading.


--

Michael Chare




  #14   Report Post  
Peter Taylor
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Peter
Taylor wrote:
No modern window is designed to take any structural load. PVC window
manufacturers have worked out how to do it using aluminium structural
posts
with jacking plates, which fit into the junctions between the frames and
concealed by PVC sheet, but the actual fitters are paid per window and
hardly ever bother to do this properly. There are very many claims and
court cases over this.


Check out http://www.expertexpert.com/bays.htm for more on this.


Excellent Tony, when I read it I realised I could have written that page
myself )

  #15   Report Post  
Peter Taylor
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame


"Michael Chare" wrote

If you have any further info on the likely success of court cases I would
be
very interested. My mother is trying to sell a bungalow where the
wood/metal
frames were replace with plastic ones almost 10 years ago. The windows
are
large, the potential purchasers surveyor has pointed out that there are
cracks
above the windows which have likely occured because the plastic frames are
not
as strong as the previous ones. The window installer is still trading.


It's difficult to advise you here and now Michael. I think my advice would
be to see if the sale goes through. If it fails or the price is reduced
because of the damage then you probably have a case. Bear in mind though
that house surveyors often don't understand the full technical aspects of
this, and the cracks may not be due to the windows at all. As I said,
windows are not expected to carry structural loads, so it could be something
else - for instance see my other post about concrete boot lintels.

Also, very important, remember it will cost you a lot of stress and
heartache to go to court (not to mention money) even if you win, so you
might be wise to consider the lowered price if it's not too ridiculous.

If you still want to proceed with court action, you need to find an expert
witness who has experience in window cases - it could be a consultant like
Philip Rougier in Tony's link, or it might be a Chartered Building Surveyor
(like me) etc. It depends where you are, but you might need to go to your
nearest big city. Look in Yellow Pages or you could check the RICS Index of
firms he http://www.ricsfirms.co.uk/ Go to Specialisations and look
for Expert Witness Reports. You obviously need someone with credibility in
court.

When you find someone, ask them to inspect the damage and prepare a report
on its cause and any remedial work necessary. Allow them to expose any bits
necessary to check on the structural situation if they need to. You'll need
to pay for this, obviously. Ask the expert to give guidance on whether
court action is advisable.

The likely success of any legal action you take depends really on the
particular circumstances - no two are alike. You will probably need a
lawyer of some sort but the expert witness will advise you on this after
inspecting the damage, and may even be able to recommend a suitable lawyer.
It is now possible to bypass solicitors (who I find don't often help a lot)
and instruct a barrister direct.

Peter



  #16   Report Post  
Michael Chare
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Lintel - Row of vertical bricks above window frame

"Peter Taylor" wrote in message
...

"Michael Chare" wrote

If you have any further info on the likely success of court cases I would
be
very interested. My mother is trying to sell a bungalow where the
wood/metal
frames were replace with plastic ones almost 10 years ago. The windows
are
large, the potential purchasers surveyor has pointed out that there are
cracks
above the windows which have likely occured because the plastic frames are
not
as strong as the previous ones. The window installer is still trading.


It's difficult to advise you here and now Michael. I think my advice would
be to see if the sale goes through. If it fails or the price is reduced
because of the damage then you probably have a case.


Thanks for your advice, we are keeping our fingers crossed!

--

Michael Chare



Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Central Air v. Window-unit Air? Nehmo Home Repair 147 August 20th 05 09:33 AM
Window Frame to Wall Sealant Frank UK diy 3 April 14th 05 11:50 AM
Window without lintel = trouble? Peter Boulton UK diy 14 August 16th 04 10:22 PM
Bricking up bodged window installation [email protected] UK diy 2 February 25th 04 05:13 PM
lintel help please Niel A. Farrow UK diy 3 September 6th 03 10:45 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"