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  #1   Report Post  
T i m
 
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Default Back boiler?

H All,

I just popped round my brother in laws (general builder for 35 years)
and he was talking about the back boiler he has had in his house for
the last 25 years needed 'fixing'.

He said he had mentioned this to a Corgi / heating eng and it was
suggested that back boilers aren't 'allowed' any more (ie, little / no
chance of buying a new replacement)?

My BIL questioned that if this was the case and he has to rip his
house up to fit a 'modern' boiler elsewhere, who was going to
compensate him for all these changes (devils advocate question)?

Any thoughts or current rule confirmation please?

All the best ..

T i m


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Geo
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:33:19 GMT, T i m wrote:


Any thoughts or current rule confirmation please?


No idea - but they are still for sale:-

http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/shop/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Baxi_Back_Boiler_Units_1277.html

Geo
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Andy Hall
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:33:19 GMT, T i m wrote:

H All,

I just popped round my brother in laws (general builder for 35 years)
and he was talking about the back boiler he has had in his house for
the last 25 years needed 'fixing'.

He said he had mentioned this to a Corgi / heating eng and it was
suggested that back boilers aren't 'allowed' any more (ie, little / no
chance of buying a new replacement)?

My BIL questioned that if this was the case and he has to rip his
house up to fit a 'modern' boiler elsewhere, who was going to
compensate him for all these changes (devils advocate question)?

Any thoughts or current rule confirmation please?


Yes, the assessment points system on the ODPM web site covers it.

http://tinyurl.com/c5dea


If a replacement is required, then the points can be applied.

I just did this exercise for my parents who have a back boiler in the
living room in a position in the centre of the house.

Using the tables for their example:

House type and fuel (detached, NG): 590 points

Boiler in new room? (yes, they can't require you to install a
condensing boiler in the main living room) : 350 points

Extended flue 2m (no): 0 points (would have been 200)

Condensate pump or soakaway needed? (yes): 100 points


Total is 1040 points. Above 1000 points it is not required to
install a condensing boiler and so they could choose to replace the
existing one. The fitter fills in the declaration, and that's it.


However, if the criteria aren't met, then a condensing boiler must be
fitted and no your BIL can't be compensated for it other than in lower
fuel bills.









All the best ..

T i m


--

..andy

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T i m
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:13:02 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Any thoughts or current rule confirmation please?


Yes, the assessment points system on the ODPM web site covers it.


Brilliant, thanks for that Andy.

So in this case 'Points mean' the possibility you can replace like
with like ;-)

Would you think a new back boiler would be *much* more efficient than
a 25 year old one (allowing for wear / tear etc) and how far off that
would it be compared to a new 'super duper' one do you think please?

All the best ..

T i m




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T i m
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:52:34 GMT, Geo
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:33:19 GMT, T i m wrote:


Any thoughts or current rule confirmation please?


No idea - but they are still for sale:-

http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/shop/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Baxi_Back_Boiler_Units_1277.html

Geo

Thanks for that .. so as long as you meet the 'points system' (as
mentioned by Andy) you can still get / fit them it seems .. ?

All the best ..

T i m



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Andy Hall
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:50:28 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:13:02 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Any thoughts or current rule confirmation please?


Yes, the assessment points system on the ODPM web site covers it.


Brilliant, thanks for that Andy.

So in this case 'Points mean' the possibility you can replace like
with like ;-)


Points mean prizes.

Yes you can.



Would you think a new back boiler would be *much* more efficient than
a 25 year old one (allowing for wear / tear etc) and how far off that
would it be compared to a new 'super duper' one do you think please?


The SEDBUK database doesn't have figures for models that old but
pre-1990 Baxi back boilers had an efficiency of 65% at best. Later
models manage up to 79%. Condensing boilers manage in the 90-91%
range.


So... if your BIL can go from a 65% to a 90% then it is worth having.
Depending on what is bought, there's not a huge difference in purchase
cost of the boiler - although there is the re-siting issue.

I don't particularly like being manipulated into product choice by the
government, but I don't feel that that aside, this is necessarily that
big a deal so is worth looking at even-handedly.






--

..andy

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T i m
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:01:33 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Would you think a new back boiler would be *much* more efficient than
a 25 year old one (allowing for wear / tear etc) and how far off that
would it be compared to a new 'super duper' one do you think please?


The SEDBUK database doesn't have figures for models that old but
pre-1990 Baxi back boilers had an efficiency of 65% at best. Later
models manage up to 79%. Condensing boilers manage in the 90-91%
range.


Ok .. ta ..


So... if your BIL can go from a 65% to a 90% then it is worth having.
Depending on what is bought, there's not a huge difference in purchase
cost of the boiler - although there is the re-siting issue.

I don't particularly like being manipulated into product choice by the
government, but I don't feel that that aside, this is necessarily that
big a deal so is worth looking at even-handedly.


Depending on what you may have to do to put in a new boiler I suppose
(if that's what you meant?).

His kitchen (open plan into the lounge with the back boiler) has just
windows on the only external wall. Any relocation will involve fairly
extensive uprooting of (fitted) carpets, floorboards, water / gas
pipes, electric spurs not to mention finding a suitable external wall
and thats probably on the opposite side of the house (to the existing
back boiler) and therefore end up in the very full (builders) garage?

(Ignoring the emmisions for a while) I think it might take many more
years than he has got left (probably in that house anyway) to recoup
the cost of the relocation work over the extra fuel costs? sigh

All the best ..

T i m





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Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
T i m wrote:
Would you think a new back boiler would be *much* more efficient than
a 25 year old one (allowing for wear / tear etc) and how far off that
would it be compared to a new 'super duper' one do you think please?


The problem with a back boiler is that it pulls in hot air from the room
and shoots it up the chimney - to be replaced with cold from outside.
Which was known to be inefficient long before condensing boilers arrived.
Hence balanced flue boilers which have been around for many a year.

Personally, I'd investigate replacing it with a modern condensing type.
The fuel savings may well repay the cost quickly. And, of course, there
are the safety benefits of a room sealed device.

--
*The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Andy Hall
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:16:42 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:01:33 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


So... if your BIL can go from a 65% to a 90% then it is worth having.
Depending on what is bought, there's not a huge difference in purchase
cost of the boiler - although there is the re-siting issue.

I don't particularly like being manipulated into product choice by the
government, but I don't feel that that aside, this is necessarily that
big a deal so is worth looking at even-handedly.


Depending on what you may have to do to put in a new boiler I suppose
(if that's what you meant?).


Not really. You can see that they don't factor ancillary works into
the equation.



His kitchen (open plan into the lounge with the back boiler) has just
windows on the only external wall. Any relocation will involve fairly
extensive uprooting of (fitted) carpets, floorboards, water / gas
pipes, electric spurs not to mention finding a suitable external wall
and thats probably on the opposite side of the house (to the existing
back boiler) and therefore end up in the very full (builders) garage?


How about the loft? This may avoid some of the pain of the water
pipe re-routing in that typically they can be run upwards from the
airing cupboard. Presumably the cylinder is currently gravity
heated. It would need to be converted to fully pumped but that's not
too bad. The main issue would be provisioning a gas supply to the
loft.

In any event flues are not too bad. If long lengths are needed,
there are boilers which will happily use 50mm high temperature plastic
waste pipe for runs that can be up to 20m or more.


(Ignoring the emmisions for a while) I think it might take many more
years than he has got left (probably in that house anyway) to recoup
the cost of the relocation work over the extra fuel costs? sigh


Unfortunately the government has only taken a limited range of issues
into account. Decorations are not among them....




--

..andy

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T i m
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:32:26 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


His kitchen (open plan into the lounge with the back boiler) has just
windows on the only external wall. Any relocation

snip

How about the loft?


Well that's a thought, though being a semi there isn't a flat external
wall to hand (unlike my 'semi terraced) ;-)

This may avoid some of the pain of the water
pipe re-routing in that typically they can be run upwards from the
airing cupboard.


Good point ..

Presumably the cylinder is currently gravity
heated.


Pass, could be ..

It would need to be converted to fully pumped but that's not
too bad.


Not for him especially ;-)

The main issue would be provisioning a gas supply to the
loft.


Again, as you say, could probably brought up from below .. maybe via
the (to be) unused chimney (assuming he also does away with the fire
front that is)? And as he recently went round after the CORGI man
fixing the gas leaks from the unfinished joints ..... ;-(

In any event flues are not too bad. If long lengths are needed,
there are boilers which will happily use 50mm high temperature plastic
waste pipe for runs that can be up to 20m or more.


And I assume could also be vented through the roof tiles via a
suitable tile and terminal?


(Ignoring the emmisions for a while) I think it might take many more
years than he has got left (probably in that house anyway) to recoup
the cost of the relocation work over the extra fuel costs? sigh


Unfortunately the government has only taken a limited range of issues
into account. Decorations are not among them....


So it would seem ;-(

All the best Andy ..

T i m



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T i m
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:24:24 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Would you think a new back boiler would be *much* more efficient than
a 25 year old one (allowing for wear / tear etc) and how far off that
would it be compared to a new 'super duper' one do you think please?


The problem with a back boiler is that it pulls in hot air from the room
and shoots it up the chimney - to be replaced with cold from outside.
Which was known to be inefficient long before condensing boilers arrived.
Hence balanced flue boilers which have been around for many a year.


Hmm, good point .. didn't some boilers require an input duct so they
do actually collect their input air from outside (like a balanced flue
jobby) though? I admit the front fire would still consume room air and
send heat into space ... but wouldn't the exhaust gasses (back boiler
and front fire) give some of their heat to the chimney breast /
internal stack and hence to the house on their way out (where a
balanced flue wouldn't)?

Personally, I'd investigate replacing it with a modern condensing type.
The fuel savings may well repay the cost quickly. And, of course, there
are the safety benefits of a room sealed device.


Worth investigation indeed (but reluctantly no doubt). ;-)

All the best Dave ..

T i m

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Andy Hall
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:53:11 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:32:26 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


The main issue would be provisioning a gas supply to the
loft.


Again, as you say, could probably brought up from below .. maybe via
the (to be) unused chimney (assuming he also does away with the fire
front that is)? And as he recently went round after the CORGI man
fixing the gas leaks from the unfinished joints ..... ;-(


I'm not sure that the pipe could be run inside the chimney, but
perhaps it could follow the route of the pipes to the cylinder and
thence to the loft?




In any event flues are not too bad. If long lengths are needed,
there are boilers which will happily use 50mm high temperature plastic
waste pipe for runs that can be up to 20m or more.


And I assume could also be vented through the roof tiles via a
suitable tile and terminal?


Yes, or even a suitable ridge tile.




--

..andy

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Dave Plowman (News)
 
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Not seem thatIn article ,
T i m wrote:
The problem with a back boiler is that it pulls in hot air from the
room and shoots it up the chimney - to be replaced with cold from
outside. Which was known to be inefficient long before condensing
boilers arrived. Hence balanced flue boilers which have been around for
many a year.


Hmm, good point .. didn't some boilers require an input duct so they
do actually collect their input air from outside (like a balanced flue
jobby) though?


Not seen that arrangement with a back boiler - although I suppose it's
possible.

I admit the front fire would still consume room air and
send heat into space ... but wouldn't the exhaust gasses (back boiler
and front fire) give some of their heat to the chimney breast /
internal stack and hence to the house on their way out (where a
balanced flue wouldn't)?


Yes - some 'flue heat' won't be wasted. But the majority will. ;-)

--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Andy Hall
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:57:49 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:24:24 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Would you think a new back boiler would be *much* more efficient than
a 25 year old one (allowing for wear / tear etc) and how far off that
would it be compared to a new 'super duper' one do you think please?


The problem with a back boiler is that it pulls in hot air from the room
and shoots it up the chimney - to be replaced with cold from outside.
Which was known to be inefficient long before condensing boilers arrived.
Hence balanced flue boilers which have been around for many a year.


Hmm, good point .. didn't some boilers require an input duct so they
do actually collect their input air from outside (like a balanced flue
jobby) though?


Certainly ventilation is needed for a back boiler.

For a fire only, it depends on the type and rating of fire.


I admit the front fire would still consume room air and
send heat into space ... but wouldn't the exhaust gasses (back boiler
and front fire) give some of their heat to the chimney breast /
internal stack and hence to the house on their way out (where a
balanced flue wouldn't)?


It's true that a back boiler flue will give some heat back to the
building, although since there is a flue liner normally used, I'm not
sure that it will be a lot.

For a balanced flue, it would really depend. If the flue is short,
then heat will tend to be expelled. If it's a long concentric flue,
the exhaust is usually (always?) in the centre and some heat will be
transferred to the intake air.

Having said that, condensing boilers are so efficient anyway and
release comparatively little heat via the flue, it should be a
non-issue.




--

..andy

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T i m
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:09:50 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:53:11 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:32:26 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


The main issue would be provisioning a gas supply to the
loft.


Again, as you say, could probably brought up from below .. maybe via
the (to be) unused chimney (assuming he also does away with the fire
front that is)? And as he recently went round after the CORGI man
fixing the gas leaks from the unfinished joints ..... ;-(


I'm not sure that the pipe could be run inside the chimney, but
perhaps it could follow the route of the pipes to the cylinder and
thence to the loft?


Why not Andy? I mean if the chimney is not to be used again then
doesn't it just become a 'riser' ?


And I assume could also be vented through the roof tiles via a
suitable tile and terminal?


Yes, or even a suitable ridge tile.


Ah yes .. and one of his 'pet hate' areas.

By that I mean in inapproriate (?) use of over-large ridge tiles when
houses are being re-roofed?

I was actually looking at that on my Mums house the other day compared
with those of next door (both sides). Her's were a nice low profile
ridges and shoulders / hips (or whatever the bits at the end of a semi
roof would be called) .. the ridge tiles may have been tall but the
others were lower so all looked in 'scale' (whereas next door looked
more like a large clay pipe filled with cement and the sides and top
were 'bodged' at the join to make them fit) ;-(

Would there have been a reason for this (ie, you can't get the low
profiles any more) or another common example of the 'can't be
bothered, they will never notice, no pride' attitude demonstrated by
many of the trades today?

Ho hum ..

All the best ..

T i m



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Andy Hall
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:25:07 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:09:50 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:53:11 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:32:26 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


The main issue would be provisioning a gas supply to the
loft.

Again, as you say, could probably brought up from below .. maybe via
the (to be) unused chimney (assuming he also does away with the fire
front that is)? And as he recently went round after the CORGI man
fixing the gas leaks from the unfinished joints ..... ;-(


I'm not sure that the pipe could be run inside the chimney, but
perhaps it could follow the route of the pipes to the cylinder and
thence to the loft?


Why not Andy? I mean if the chimney is not to be used again then
doesn't it just become a 'riser' ?


How would one get the pipe in there? It can't be plastic,
remenber...




And I assume could also be vented through the roof tiles via a
suitable tile and terminal?


Yes, or even a suitable ridge tile.


Ah yes .. and one of his 'pet hate' areas.

By that I mean in inapproriate (?) use of over-large ridge tiles when
houses are being re-roofed?

I was actually looking at that on my Mums house the other day compared
with those of next door (both sides). Her's were a nice low profile
ridges and shoulders / hips (or whatever the bits at the end of a semi
roof would be called) .. the ridge tiles may have been tall but the
others were lower so all looked in 'scale' (whereas next door looked
more like a large clay pipe filled with cement and the sides and top
were 'bodged' at the join to make them fit) ;-(

Would there have been a reason for this (ie, you can't get the low
profiles any more) or another common example of the 'can't be
bothered, they will never notice, no pride' attitude demonstrated by
many of the trades today?


Can't say I've thought about it. A few years ago when our Aga was
installed, we elected to have a conventional flue model because it was
the most convenient for the installation position. The flue runs
directly to the loft, then at an angle following the roof slope and
finally to a ridge tile terminal. The profile follows the existing
tiles and it isn't noticable from the ground.





--

..andy

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T i m
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:36:41 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Why not Andy? I mean if the chimney is not to be used again then
doesn't it just become a 'riser' ?


How would one get the pipe in there? It can't be plastic,
remenber...


Hmm, I was imagining an access hole made in the face of the chimney in
the loft? The pipe(s) could be fed down from the chimney top before
the pot is shillded (rain cover / vent) ?


Would there have been a reason for this (ie, you can't get the low
profiles any more) or another common example of the 'can't be
bothered, they will never notice, no pride' attitude demonstrated by
many of the trades today?


Can't say I've thought about it.


Well, the next time you are looking at a roof (from the ground), check
out the profile of all the ridge tiles and see if all the houses in
the row look the same? ;-)

A few years ago when our Aga was
installed, we elected to have a conventional flue model because it was
the most convenient for the installation position. The flue runs
directly to the loft, then at an angle following the roof slope and
finally to a ridge tile terminal. The profile follows the existing
tiles and it isn't noticable from the ground.


That's good and my suggestion is that not all roofers / builders
'would bother' / 'are able to source' the correct ridge / hip profile?

All the best ..

T i m

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Andy Hall
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 06:32:19 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:36:41 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Why not Andy? I mean if the chimney is not to be used again then
doesn't it just become a 'riser' ?


How would one get the pipe in there? It can't be plastic,
remenber...


Hmm, I was imagining an access hole made in the face of the chimney in
the loft? The pipe(s) could be fed down from the chimney top before
the pot is shillded (rain cover / vent) ?


Obviously one could make the hole, but I'm not sure that even then one
could get a long length of copper tube down the chimney, even at an
angle. THen there is the matter of supporting the pipe.





Would there have been a reason for this (ie, you can't get the low
profiles any more) or another common example of the 'can't be
bothered, they will never notice, no pride' attitude demonstrated by
many of the trades today?


Can't say I've thought about it.


Well, the next time you are looking at a roof (from the ground), check
out the profile of all the ridge tiles and see if all the houses in
the row look the same? ;-)


In the context of rows of houses, I see what you mean, especially if
there is a re-roof job.



A few years ago when our Aga was
installed, we elected to have a conventional flue model because it was
the most convenient for the installation position. The flue runs
directly to the loft, then at an angle following the roof slope and
finally to a ridge tile terminal. The profile follows the existing
tiles and it isn't noticable from the ground.


That's good and my suggestion is that not all roofers / builders
'would bother' / 'are able to source' the correct ridge / hip profile?


Oh of course. I had to find out who the manufacturer was and then
find a local specialist supplier. I then painted the tile of the new
terminal with some milk and general crud a couple of weeks before
fitting to encourage growth of suitable flora and fauna to match
existing. Two months after fitting, the colours had blended with the
15 year old existing.


--

..andy

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Ian_m
 
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"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:52:34 GMT, Geo
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:33:19 GMT, T i m wrote:


Any thoughts or current rule confirmation please?


No idea - but they are still for sale:-

http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/shop/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Baxi_Back_Boiler_Units_1277.html

Geo

Thanks for that .. so as long as you meet the 'points system' (as
mentioned by Andy) you can still get / fit them it seems .. ?

My mate had his backbolier replaced couple of months ago. Fitter did a
totting up exercise of fitting a modern boiler, which would not be easy due
to existin location of back boiler in center or terraced house and fitted a
replacement (Baxi ?) back boiler. Also converted to fully pumped HW as
whilst at it.. About £2.5K I seem to remember, inc hearth and coal effect
gas fire front.


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Junior Member
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T i m
H All,

I just popped round my brother in laws (general builder for 35 years)
and he was talking about the back boiler he has had in his house for
the last 25 years needed 'fixing'.

He said he had mentioned this to a Corgi / heating eng and it was
suggested that back boilers aren't 'allowed' any more (ie, little / no
chance of buying a new replacement)?

My BIL questioned that if this was the case and he has to rip his
house up to fit a 'modern' boiler elsewhere, who was going to
compensate him for all these changes (devils advocate question)?

Any thoughts or current rule confirmation please?

All the best ..

T i m
What your engineer told you is true abeit in the right context.You now have to fit a condensing gas boiler if possible.There are certain criteria that would allow you to fit a backboiler such as if the house is terraced,if the flue has to be extended by more than 2mtrs or if it was just not possible to install a condensing boiler without causing to much extra cost.
To determine requirements your corgi installer will carry out an assesment


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DJC
 
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T i m wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:36:41 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:
How would one get the pipe in there? It can't be plastic,
remenber...


Hmm, I was imagining an access hole made in the face of the chimney in
the loft? The pipe(s) could be fed down from the chimney top before
the pot is shillded (rain cover / vent) ?


If it's the standard sort of semi (c 1930-60) then there is probably a
duct beside the chimney from back boiler to airing cupboard to loft.


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"
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raden
 
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In message , gasgard
writes

T i m Wrote:
H All,

I just popped round my brother in laws (general builder for 35 years)
and he was talking about the back boiler he has had in his house for
the last 25 years needed 'fixing'.

He said he had mentioned this to a Corgi / heating eng and it was
suggested that back boilers aren't 'allowed' any more (ie, little / no
chance of buying a new replacement)?

My BIL questioned that if this was the case and he has to rip his
house up to fit a 'modern' boiler elsewhere, who was going to
compensate him for all these changes (devils advocate question)?

Any thoughts or current rule confirmation please?

All the best ..

T i m

What your engineer told you is true abeit in the right context.You now
have to fit a condensing gas boiler if possible.There are certain
criteria that would allow you to fit a backboiler such as if the house
is terraced,if the flue has to be extended by more than 2mtrs or if it
was just not possible to install a condensing boiler without causing to
much extra cost.
To determine requirements your corgi installer will carry out an
assesment

If he can count beyond 5 while holding something in the other hand

(casting no aspersions on various group members)

--
geoff
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DJC
 
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gasgard wrote:

What your engineer told you is true abeit in the right context.You now
have to fit a condensing gas boiler if possible.There are certain
criteria that would allow you to fit a backboiler such as if the house
is terraced,if the flue has to be extended by more than 2mtrs or if it
was just not possible to install a condensing boiler without causing to
much extra cost.


unfortunately cost is not taken into account

Assessment score = total of
Property type and boiler fuel
new boiler in different room
extended flue
condensate pump or soakaway required

if you score enough points on all the above then it is "assessed as
impractical or uneconomic". But uneconomic in this case is not a matter
of how much money it will cost.

--
David Clark

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