[David]

In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no spare beds, and
hospitals running out of oxygen.

It is a reasonable assumption that one could catch Covid, need oxygen, and
find that there are no beds available and no spare oxygen cylinders for
home use as supplies have run out.

I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

"Under the NHS oxygen may be supplied as oxygen cylinders. Oxygen flow can
be adjusted as the cylinders are equipped with an oxygen flow meter with
€˜medium (2€¯litres/minute) and €˜high (4€¯litres/minute) settings. Oxygen
delivered from a cylinder should be passed through a humidifier if used
for long periods.

Oxygen concentrators are more economical for patients who require oxygen
for long periods, and in England and Wales can be ordered on the NHS on a
regional tendering basis. A concentrator is recommended for a patient who
requires oxygen for more than 8 hours a day (or 21 cylinders per month).
Exceptionally, if a higher concentration of oxygen is required the output
of 2 oxygen concentrators can be combined using a €˜Y connection.

A nasal cannula is usually preferred for long-term oxygen therapy from an
oxygen concentrator. It can, however, produce dermatitis and mucosal
drying in sensitive individuals.

Giving oxygen by nasal cannula allows the patient to talk, eat, and drink,
but the concentration of oxygen is not controlled; this may not be
appropriate for acute respiratory failure. When oxygen is given through a
nasal cannula at a rate of 1€“2€¯litres/minute the inspiratory oxygen
concentration is usually low, but it varies with ventilation and can be
high if the patient is underventilating."

From that I assume that an oxygen concentrator would be the preferred
solution if Covid was bad enough to require oxygen.

That leads to a couple of questions:

(1) Is the risk high enough to justify buying an oxygen concentrator as an
insurance policy?

(2) If so, how do you tell how good (or not) the ones advertised on line
are?

Oh, and Happy New Year.

Dave R


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[Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)]

I don't think we need to worry, since there do seem to be fewer of those who
have gone into hospital with the severe kind as far as breathing is
concerned, it seems to be other tissues including the heart that are being
affected now for some reason. Of course that could change over time.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"David" wrote in message
...
In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no spare beds, and
hospitals running out of oxygen.

It is a reasonable assumption that one could catch Covid, need oxygen, and
find that there are no beds available and no spare oxygen cylinders for
home use as supplies have run out.

I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

"Under the NHS oxygen may be supplied as oxygen cylinders. Oxygen flow can
be adjusted as the cylinders are equipped with an oxygen flow meter with
'medium' (2?litres/minute) and 'high' (4?litres/minute) settings. Oxygen
delivered from a cylinder should be passed through a humidifier if used
for long periods.

Oxygen concentrators are more economical for patients who require oxygen
for long periods, and in England and Wales can be ordered on the NHS on a
regional tendering basis. A concentrator is recommended for a patient who
requires oxygen for more than 8 hours a day (or 21 cylinders per month).
Exceptionally, if a higher concentration of oxygen is required the output
of 2 oxygen concentrators can be combined using a 'Y' connection.

A nasal cannula is usually preferred for long-term oxygen therapy from an
oxygen concentrator. It can, however, produce dermatitis and mucosal
drying in sensitive individuals.

Giving oxygen by nasal cannula allows the patient to talk, eat, and drink,
but the concentration of oxygen is not controlled; this may not be
appropriate for acute respiratory failure. When oxygen is given through a
nasal cannula at a rate of 1-2?litres/minute the inspiratory oxygen
concentration is usually low, but it varies with ventilation and can be
high if the patient is underventilating."

From that I assume that an oxygen concentrator would be the preferred
solution if Covid was bad enough to require oxygen.

That leads to a couple of questions:

(1) Is the risk high enough to justify buying an oxygen concentrator as an
insurance policy?

(2) If so, how do you tell how good (or not) the ones advertised on line
are?

Oh, and Happy New Year.

Dave R


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[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.[_2_]]

David presented the following explanation :
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one
running, they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in operation,
but how do they work?

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

On 31/12/2020 17:03, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
David presented the following explanation :
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one
running, they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in operation,
but how do they work?

œ‚---------------------------------------------------------------
"An oxygen concentrator takes in air and removes nitrogen from it,
leaving an oxygen enriched gas for use by people requiring medical
oxygen due to low oxygen levels in their blood. Oxygen concentrators
provide an economical source of oxygen in industrial processes where
they are also known as oxygen gas generators or oxygen generation plants."

adsorption of nitrogen or by pressure and membranes


--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

[Andy Burns[_13_]]

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

David wrote:
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one
running, they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in operation,
but how do they work?

I didn't but wiki does ...

compressor pumps air through vessel that contains zeolite, which adsorbs
most of the N2, leaving output of mainly O2. Then it swaps a set of
valves to continue the same process through a second vessel, while
reversing the flow through the first vessel to expel the N2 to
atmosphere, rinse and repeat.

Presumably they need good airflow into the room, and maybe an exhaust
for the N2 rich output?

[Nightjar]

On 31/12/2020 15:53, David wrote:
In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no spare beds, and
hospitals running out of oxygen.

It is a reasonable assumption that one could catch Covid, need oxygen, and
find that there are no beds available and no spare oxygen cylinders for
home use as supplies have run out.

I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

"Under the NHS oxygen may be supplied as oxygen cylinders. Oxygen flow can
be adjusted as the cylinders are equipped with an oxygen flow meter with
€˜medium (2€¯litres/minute) and €˜high (4€¯litres/minute) settings. Oxygen
delivered from a cylinder should be passed through a humidifier if used
for long periods.

Oxygen concentrators are more economical for patients who require oxygen
for long periods, and in England and Wales can be ordered on the NHS on a
regional tendering basis. A concentrator is recommended for a patient who
requires oxygen for more than 8 hours a day (or 21 cylinders per month).
Exceptionally, if a higher concentration of oxygen is required the output
of 2 oxygen concentrators can be combined using a €˜Y connection.

A nasal cannula is usually preferred for long-term oxygen therapy from an
oxygen concentrator. It can, however, produce dermatitis and mucosal
drying in sensitive individuals.

Giving oxygen by nasal cannula allows the patient to talk, eat, and drink,
but the concentration of oxygen is not controlled; this may not be
appropriate for acute respiratory failure. When oxygen is given through a
nasal cannula at a rate of 1€“2€¯litres/minute the inspiratory oxygen
concentration is usually low, but it varies with ventilation and can be
high if the patient is underventilating."

From that I assume that an oxygen concentrator would be the preferred
solution if Covid was bad enough to require oxygen.

That leads to a couple of questions:

(1) Is the risk high enough to justify buying an oxygen concentrator as an
insurance policy?

If you get Covid-19 badly enough to need oxygen therapy, you will need
more than just the oxygen supply. You will also need the qualified
medical staff to look after you. AIUI they are in much shorter supply.

(2) If so, how do you tell how good (or not) the ones advertised on line
are?

Most of the ones you can buy online are non-prescription concentrators.
They won't give more than 1 litre/minute of continuous 99% pure oxygen
and some give a lot less. To get higher rated concentrators or medical
oxygen cylinders, you need a prescription and would then be looking at
something like these:

https://www.theoxygenstore.com/home-...entrators.html

You can also get portable prescription concentrators, although they do
cost quite a bit more e.g.:

https://healthoxygen.com/product/phi...-concentrator/


--
Colin Bignell

[ARW]

On 31/12/2020 17:22, Andy Burns wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

David wrote:
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around
£250-£300.

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one
running, they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in
operation, but how do they work?

I didn't but wiki does ...

compressor pumps air through vessel that contains zeolite, which adsorbs
most of the N2, leaving output of mainly O2.* Then it swaps a set of
valves to continue the same process through a second vessel, while
reversing the flow through the first vessel to expel the N2 to
atmosphere, rinse and repeat.

Presumably they need good airflow into the room, and maybe an exhaust
for the N2 rich output?


During the first lockdown I fitted outside lights around the oxygen
plant at Doncaster Royal Infirmary.

The high usage was causing the pipes to freeze and they needed hot
hosing down every 2 hours.

I wonder if it is the same thing?



--
Adam

[newshound]

On 31/12/2020 17:35, ARW wrote:
On 31/12/2020 17:22, Andy Burns wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

David wrote:
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around
£250-£300.

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one
running, they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in
operation, but how do they work?

I didn't but wiki does ...

compressor pumps air through vessel that contains zeolite, which
adsorbs most of the N2, leaving output of mainly O2.* Then it swaps a
set of valves to continue the same process through a second vessel,
while reversing the flow through the first vessel to expel the N2 to
atmosphere, rinse and repeat.

Presumably they need good airflow into the room, and maybe an exhaust
for the N2 rich output?

I think if you look at flow rates and air changes even a well sealed
(ordinary) room would be OK. (My late FIL was a builder, he had one for
a while for severe emphysema caused by asbestos and other dusts).



During the first lockdown I fitted outside lights around the oxygen
plant at Doncaster Royal Infirmary.

The high usage was causing the pipes to freeze and they needed hot
hosing down every 2 hours.

I wonder if it is the same thing?


Not really. I don't know what sort of evaporators oxygen plant has,
whether it's just air source or whether they have heaters.

You have to supply enough heat to evaporate the amount of gas you are
using. Presumably the "standard" design just wasn't adequate at this
time of very high use.

[David]

On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 17:23:10 +0000, nightjar wrote:

On 31/12/2020 15:53, David wrote:
In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no spare beds, and
hospitals running out of oxygen.

It is a reasonable assumption that one could catch Covid, need oxygen,
and find that there are no beds available and no spare oxygen cylinders
for home use as supplies have run out.

I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

"Under the NHS oxygen may be supplied as oxygen cylinders. Oxygen flow
can be adjusted as the cylinders are equipped with an oxygen flow meter
with €˜medium (2€¯litres/minute) and €˜high (4€¯litres/minute) settings.
Oxygen delivered from a cylinder should be passed through a humidifier
if used for long periods.

Oxygen concentrators are more economical for patients who require
oxygen for long periods, and in England and Wales can be ordered on the
NHS on a regional tendering basis. A concentrator is recommended for a
patient who requires oxygen for more than 8 hours a day (or 21
cylinders per month). Exceptionally, if a higher concentration of
oxygen is required the output of 2 oxygen concentrators can be combined
using a €˜Y connection.

A nasal cannula is usually preferred for long-term oxygen therapy from
an oxygen concentrator. It can, however, produce dermatitis and mucosal
drying in sensitive individuals.

Giving oxygen by nasal cannula allows the patient to talk, eat, and
drink,
but the concentration of oxygen is not controlled; this may not be
appropriate for acute respiratory failure. When oxygen is given through
a nasal cannula at a rate of 1€“2€¯litres/minute the inspiratory oxygen
concentration is usually low, but it varies with ventilation and can be
high if the patient is underventilating."

From that I assume that an oxygen concentrator would be the preferred
solution if Covid was bad enough to require oxygen.

That leads to a couple of questions:

(1) Is the risk high enough to justify buying an oxygen concentrator as
an insurance policy?

If you get Covid-19 badly enough to need oxygen therapy, you will need
more than just the oxygen supply. You will also need the qualified
medical staff to look after you. AIUI they are in much shorter supply.

(2) If so, how do you tell how good (or not) the ones advertised on
line are?

Most of the ones you can buy online are non-prescription concentrators.
They won't give more than 1 litre/minute of continuous 99% pure oxygen
and some give a lot less. To get higher rated concentrators or medical
oxygen cylinders, you need a prescription and would then be looking at
something like these:

https://www.theoxygenstore.com/home-...concentrators/
standard-flow-concentrators.html

You can also get portable prescription concentrators, although they do
cost quite a bit more e.g.:

https://healthoxygen.com/product/phi...rtable-oxygen-
concentrator/

Thanks.
Useful information.
3 or 4 times the price of the consumer models.

I realise that for optimum care there should be medical supervision.

I'm just exploring the case where there is no supervision or oxygen
available from the HNS, and if having your own oxygen supply would be an
improvement on having nothing.

Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.


Cheers


Dave R


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[ARW]

On 31/12/2020 17:49, newshound wrote:
On 31/12/2020 17:35, ARW wrote:
On 31/12/2020 17:22, Andy Burns wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

David wrote:
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around
£250-£300.

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one
running, they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in
operation, but how do they work?

I didn't but wiki does ...

compressor pumps air through vessel that contains zeolite, which
adsorbs most of the N2, leaving output of mainly O2.* Then it swaps a
set of valves to continue the same process through a second vessel,
while reversing the flow through the first vessel to expel the N2 to
atmosphere, rinse and repeat.

Presumably they need good airflow into the room, and maybe an exhaust
for the N2 rich output?

I think if you look at flow rates and air changes even a well sealed
(ordinary) room would be OK.







(My late FIL was a builder, he had one for
a while for severe emphysema caused by asbestos and other dusts).


Hopefully the next generation of builders will not have to put up with
that if they pay attention now that asbestos awareness courses are
mandatory (and now exist).




During the first lockdown I fitted outside lights around the oxygen
plant at Doncaster Royal Infirmary.

The high usage was causing the pipes to freeze and they needed hot
hosing down every 2 hours.

I wonder if it is the same thing?


Not really. I don't know what sort of evaporators oxygen plant has,
whether it's just air source or whether they have heaters.

You have to supply enough heat to evaporate the amount of gas you are
using. Presumably the "standard" design just wasn't adequate at this
time of very high use.


I would agree, not designed for such very high use.


--
Adam

[Fred]

David wrote

In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no
spare beds, and hospitals running out of oxygen.

It is a reasonable assumption that one could catch Covid,

Trivial to avoid that happening.

need oxygen, and find that there are no beds available and no
spare oxygen cylinders for home use as supplies have run out.

I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

Makes more sense to avoid getting infected
or get vaccinated to avoid severe disease and
the need for oxygen.

"Under the NHS oxygen may be supplied as oxygen cylinders. Oxygen flow can
be adjusted as the cylinders are equipped with an oxygen flow meter with
€˜medium (2€¯litres/minute) and €˜high (4€¯litres/minute) settings. Oxygen
delivered from a cylinder should be passed through a humidifier if used
for long periods.

Oxygen concentrators are more economical for patients who require oxygen
for long periods, and in England and Wales can be ordered on the NHS on a
regional tendering basis. A concentrator is recommended for a patient who
requires oxygen for more than 8 hours a day (or 21 cylinders per month).
Exceptionally, if a higher concentration of oxygen is required the output
of 2 oxygen concentrators can be combined using a €˜Y connection.

A nasal cannula is usually preferred for long-term oxygen therapy from an
oxygen concentrator. It can, however, produce dermatitis and mucosal
drying in sensitive individuals.

Giving oxygen by nasal cannula allows the patient to talk, eat, and drink,
but the concentration of oxygen is not controlled; this may not be
appropriate for acute respiratory failure. When oxygen is given through a
nasal cannula at a rate of 1€“2€¯litres/minute the inspiratory oxygen
concentration is usually low, but it varies with ventilation and can be
high if the patient is underventilating."

From that I assume that an oxygen concentrator would be the preferred
solution if Covid was bad enough to require oxygen.

That leads to a couple of questions:

(1) Is the risk high enough to justify buying an oxygen concentrator as an
insurance policy?

(2) If so, how do you tell how good (or not) the ones advertised on line
are?

Oh, and Happy New Year.

Dave R


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[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.[_2_]]

David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.

You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a finger,
self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen concentration
in your blood, plus heart rate.

[Fredxx[_4_]]

On 31/12/2020 17:22, Andy Burns wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

David wrote:
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around
£250-£300.

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one
running, they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in
operation, but how do they work?

I didn't but wiki does ...

compressor pumps air through vessel that contains zeolite, which adsorbs
most of the N2, leaving output of mainly O2.* Then it swaps a set of
valves to continue the same process through a second vessel, while
reversing the flow through the first vessel to expel the N2 to
atmosphere, rinse and repeat.

Presumably they need good airflow into the room, and maybe an exhaust
for the N2 rich output?

You beat me to it. I have 3 of the machines.

They create a modest level of noise from a well muffled compressor. The
units each provide up to 5l/min of enriched oxygen.

[Nightjar]

On 31/12/2020 17:22, Andy Burns wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

David wrote:
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around
£250-£300.

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one
running, they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in
operation, but how do they work?

I didn't but wiki does ...

compressor pumps air through vessel that contains zeolite, which adsorbs
most of the N2, leaving output of mainly O2.* Then it swaps a set of
valves to continue the same process through a second vessel, while
reversing the flow through the first vessel to expel the N2 to
atmosphere, rinse and repeat.

Presumably they need good airflow into the room, and maybe an exhaust
for the N2 rich output?

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but, if you
are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a window cracked
open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.

--
Colin Bignell

[Fred]

"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in message
...
David presented the following explanation :
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one running,
they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in operation, but how do
they work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_concentrator

[Andrew[_22_]]

On 31/12/2020 16:34, Owain Lastname wrote:
On Thursday, 31 December 2020 at 15:53:35 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no spare beds, and
hospitals running out of oxygen.

Couldn't you just split water using electrolysis and vent off the hydrogen?

Owain



Buy lots of house plants ?.

[Nightjar]

On 31/12/2020 17:51, David wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 17:23:10 +0000, nightjar wrote:

On 31/12/2020 15:53, David wrote:
In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no spare beds, and
hospitals running out of oxygen.

It is a reasonable assumption that one could catch Covid, need oxygen,
and find that there are no beds available and no spare oxygen cylinders
for home use as supplies have run out.

I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

"Under the NHS oxygen may be supplied as oxygen cylinders. Oxygen flow
can be adjusted as the cylinders are equipped with an oxygen flow meter
with €˜medium (2€¯litres/minute) and €˜high (4€¯litres/minute) settings.
Oxygen delivered from a cylinder should be passed through a humidifier
if used for long periods.

Oxygen concentrators are more economical for patients who require
oxygen for long periods, and in England and Wales can be ordered on the
NHS on a regional tendering basis. A concentrator is recommended for a
patient who requires oxygen for more than 8 hours a day (or 21
cylinders per month). Exceptionally, if a higher concentration of
oxygen is required the output of 2 oxygen concentrators can be combined
using a €˜Y connection.

A nasal cannula is usually preferred for long-term oxygen therapy from
an oxygen concentrator. It can, however, produce dermatitis and mucosal
drying in sensitive individuals.

Giving oxygen by nasal cannula allows the patient to talk, eat, and
drink,
but the concentration of oxygen is not controlled; this may not be
appropriate for acute respiratory failure. When oxygen is given through
a nasal cannula at a rate of 1€“2€¯litres/minute the inspiratory oxygen
concentration is usually low, but it varies with ventilation and can be
high if the patient is underventilating."

From that I assume that an oxygen concentrator would be the preferred
solution if Covid was bad enough to require oxygen.

That leads to a couple of questions:

(1) Is the risk high enough to justify buying an oxygen concentrator as
an insurance policy?

If you get Covid-19 badly enough to need oxygen therapy, you will need
more than just the oxygen supply. You will also need the qualified
medical staff to look after you. AIUI they are in much shorter supply.

(2) If so, how do you tell how good (or not) the ones advertised on
line are?

Most of the ones you can buy online are non-prescription concentrators.
They won't give more than 1 litre/minute of continuous 99% pure oxygen
and some give a lot less. To get higher rated concentrators or medical
oxygen cylinders, you need a prescription and would then be looking at
something like these:

https://www.theoxygenstore.com/home-...concentrators/
standard-flow-concentrators.html

You can also get portable prescription concentrators, although they do
cost quite a bit more e.g.:

https://healthoxygen.com/product/phi...rtable-oxygen-
concentrator/

Thanks.
Useful information.
3 or 4 times the price of the consumer models.

I realise that for optimum care there should be medical supervision.

I'm just exploring the case where there is no supervision or oxygen
available from the HNS, and if having your own oxygen supply would be an
improvement on having nothing.

Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.

:-)

If you have a prescription, the NHS appoint one of three contractors,
who supply and maintain a static machine free of charge as well as
refunding the cost of the electricity it uses. You also get a few
portable cylinders that allow you to leave the house and a big reserve
one, to keep you going until an engineer arrives if the machine breaks
down.

If you go on holiday in the UK and give enough notice (three weeks IIRC)
they will also arrange oxygen at your destination, subject to agreement
with the property owner. It is more of a problem if you travel abroad,
which is why I bought the portable concentrator I provided a link to.

--
Colin Bignell

[Jeff Layman[_2_]]

On 31/12/2020 18:07, ARW wrote:

(My late FIL was a builder, he had one for
a while for severe emphysema caused by asbestos and other dusts).


Hopefully the next generation of builders will not have to put up with
that if they pay attention now that asbestos awareness courses are
mandatory (and now exist).

Hopefully, it's any particulate matter deemed to be an environmental
pollutant they should be concerned about. Maybe now that the wearing of
masks has become common, the cutting of stones and bricks with discs
without wearing a mask (or even goggles) will become a thing of the past.

--

Jeff

[williamwright]

On 31/12/2020 17:22, Andy Burns wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

David wrote:
I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around
£250-£300.

Just curious - anyone know how those things work? I have seen one
running, they sound rather like a small fridge compressor in
operation, but how do they work?

I didn't but wiki does ...

compressor pumps air through vessel that contains zeolite, which adsorbs
most of the N2, leaving output of mainly O2.* Then it swaps a set of
valves to continue the same process through a second vessel, while
reversing the flow through the first vessel to expel the N2 to
atmosphere, rinse and repeat.

Yes you can hear it change over each time.

Bill

[jon]

On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:53:31 +0000, David wrote:

In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no spare beds, and
hospitals running out of oxygen.

It is a reasonable assumption that one could catch Covid, need oxygen,
and find that there are no beds available and no spare oxygen cylinders
for home use as supplies have run out.

I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

"Under the NHS oxygen may be supplied as oxygen cylinders. Oxygen flow
can be adjusted as the cylinders are equipped with an oxygen flow meter
with €˜medium (2€¯litres/minute) and €˜high (4€¯litres/minute) settings.
Oxygen delivered from a cylinder should be passed through a humidifier
if used for long periods.

Oxygen concentrators are more economical for patients who require oxygen
for long periods, and in England and Wales can be ordered on the NHS on
a regional tendering basis. A concentrator is recommended for a patient
who requires oxygen for more than 8 hours a day (or 21 cylinders per
month). Exceptionally, if a higher concentration of oxygen is required
the output of 2 oxygen concentrators can be combined using a €˜Y
connection.

A nasal cannula is usually preferred for long-term oxygen therapy from
an oxygen concentrator. It can, however, produce dermatitis and mucosal
drying in sensitive individuals.

Giving oxygen by nasal cannula allows the patient to talk, eat, and
drink,
but the concentration of oxygen is not controlled; this may not be
appropriate for acute respiratory failure. When oxygen is given through
a nasal cannula at a rate of 1€“2€¯litres/minute the inspiratory oxygen
concentration is usually low, but it varies with ventilation and can be
high if the patient is underventilating."

From that I assume that an oxygen concentrator would be the preferred
solution if Covid was bad enough to require oxygen.

That leads to a couple of questions:

(1) Is the risk high enough to justify buying an oxygen concentrator as
an insurance policy?

(2) If so, how do you tell how good (or not) the ones advertised on line
are?

Oh, and Happy New Year.

Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64


My wife has Pulmonary Hypertension and gets breathless quickly, so I
bought her one of these for Christmas.....https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/
product/B086ZQ8D4W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Andy Burns[_13_]]

jon wrote:

My wife has Pulmonary Hypertension and gets breathless quickly, so I
bought her one of these for Christmas.....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086ZQ8D4W
Seems that's not the air concentrator type discussed before, but one
that splits water?

[Jeff Layman[_2_]]

On 01/01/2021 07:22, Andy Burns wrote:
jon wrote:

My wife has Pulmonary Hypertension and gets breathless quickly, so I
bought her one of these for Christmas.....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086ZQ8D4W
Seems that's not the air concentrator type discussed before, but one
that splits water?

No, it is a concentrator. See penultimate bullet point under main heading:
"�¤ ã€�Molecular Sieve Oxygen Generator】 Molecular sieve oxygen generator
is an advanced gas separation technology. The physical method (PSA
method) directly extracts oxygen from the air, which is ready for use,
fresh and natural. No atomization function. "

Were you perhaps confusing the need for water in the humidifier?

--

Jeff

[Andy Burns[_13_]]

Jeff Layman wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Seems that's not the air concentrator type discussed before, but one
that splits water?

No, it is a concentrator. See penultimate bullet point under main heading:
"�¤ ã€�Molecular Sieve Oxygen Generator】 Molecular sieve oxygen generator
is an advanced gas separation technology. The physical method (PSA
method) directly extracts oxygen from the air, which is ready for use,
fresh and natural. No atomization function. "

Were you perhaps confusing the need for water in the humidifier?

More than likely ...

[John J[_2_]]

On Thursday, 31 December 2020 at 18:36:35 UTC, undefined wrote:
David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.
You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a finger,
self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen concentration
in your blood, plus heart rate.

Is there any actual difference in the gas inside an oxygen bottle for respirators and oxygen bottles for gas axes?

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

On 01/01/2021 09:36, John J wrote:
On Thursday, 31 December 2020 at 18:36:35 UTC, undefined wrote:
David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.
You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a finger,
self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen concentration
in your blood, plus heart rate.

Is there any actual difference in the gas inside an oxygen bottle for respirators and oxygen bottles for gas axes?

Probably a higher sterility standard

But if I were dying I wouldn't be fussy


--
€œProgress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,€�

€“ Ludwig von Mises

[No Name]

On 01/01/2021 09:36, John J wrote:
On Thursday, 31 December 2020 at 18:36:35 UTC, undefined wrote:
David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.
You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a finger,
self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen concentration
in your blood, plus heart rate.

Is there any actual difference in the gas inside an oxygen bottle for respirators and oxygen bottles for gas axes?


yes..... purity and contamination

medical grade oxygen is 99.99% oxygen when filled into the bottle


The cylinder must be of an inert material so it does not contaminate the
oxygen while being stored before use.

[Reentrant[_11_]]

On 01/01/2021 10:07, No Name wrote:
On 01/01/2021 09:36, John J wrote:
On Thursday, 31 December 2020 at 18:36:35 UTC, undefined wrote:
David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.
You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a finger,
self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen concentration
in your blood, plus heart rate.

Is there any actual difference in the gas inside an oxygen bottle for
respirators and oxygen bottles for gas axes?


yes..... purity and contamination

medical grade oxygen is 99.99% oxygen when filled into the bottle


The cylinder must be of an inert material so it does not contaminate the
oxygen while being stored before use.

What about water content? Breathing pure O2 at 0% humidity won't be good
for already-struggling lungs.

--
Reentrant

[[email protected]]

On 31/12/2020 18:36, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.

You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a finger,
self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen concentration
in your blood, plus heart rate.
I had (mild) Covid a short time ago and looked around for an oximeter.
The reviews were mixed (especially for the cheaper ones) so I ended-up
with a "RENPHO Oxygen Saturation Monitor". It gives results that are
consistent with my Android phone, but whether that's a good or bad thing
I know not.

[Martin Brown[_3_]]

On 01/01/2021 10:32, Reentrant wrote:
On 01/01/2021 10:07, No Name wrote:
On 01/01/2021 09:36, John J wrote:
On Thursday, 31 December 2020 at 18:36:35 UTC, undefined wrote:
David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.
You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a finger,
self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen concentration
in your blood, plus heart rate.

Is there any actual difference in the gas inside an oxygen bottle for
respirators and oxygen bottles for gas axes?


yes..... purity and contamination

medical grade oxygen is 99.99% oxygen when filled into the bottle


The cylinder must be of an inert material so it does not contaminate
the oxygen while being stored before use.

Oxygen at high pressure is reactive enough that the interior surface
will passivate pretty quickly. It is more about anything else toxic in
with it like ozone impurities for instance.

A flame doesn't care whether it gets fed with O2 or O3 but a human does.

What about water content? Breathing pure O2 at 0% humidity won't be good
for already-struggling lungs.

Breathing pure oxygen for too long isn't all that good for you anyway.
They typically enrich the air being breathed in by some proportion
accroding to the patients needs - lowest enrichment to get blood O2 up.

It makes a significant boost to seeing faint objects at full dark
adaption (especially at high altitude observatories to have a few
breaths of pure O2). Apart from that it isn't recommended unless
suffering from altitude sickness (which is sort of what Covid does).

DIY oxygen tent is probably a bad idea anyway. Several smokers in third
world countries have burned to death whilst being treated in them.

This one in the UK is pretty scary too. I'm not sure how it started but
my guess would be using the wrong lubricant on the high pressure side.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sion-home.html

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[GB]

On 31/12/2020 18:53, nightjar wrote:

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but, if you
are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a window cracked
open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.


This doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. The amount of oxygen being
used up in the room is the amount being converted into CO2 by the
patient. The oxygen concentrator won't alter that significantly.

What's happening is that oxygen enriched air is being fed into the
patient's lungs. The patient absorbs some of that oxygen, and the excess
gets expelled back into the room, where it mixes with the remaining air.

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.[_2_]]

Reentrant wrote :
What about water content? Breathing pure O2 at 0% humidity won't be good for
already-struggling lungs.

Which is why they use an in-line humidifier, if someone is on oxygen
for an extended period of time. Is a nebuliser the same thing?

[GB]

On 31/12/2020 18:44, Fredxx wrote:

You beat me to it. I have 3 of the machines.

You use them all at once, or you keep them in different rooms, to save
carting them around?

Or, maybe you are just an ardent collector?

[Nightjar]

On 31/12/2020 18:36, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.

You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a finger,
self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen concentration
in your blood, plus heart rate.

IME, they can give odd readings at times. Ear lobe probe meters seem to
be more reliable, but are more expensive.

--
Colin Bignell

[Paul[_46_]]

nightjar wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:36, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.

You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a
finger, self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen
concentration in your blood, plus heart rate.

IME, they can give odd readings at times. Ear lobe probe meters seem to
be more reliable, but are more expensive.


They're supposed to be used at room temperature.
If you've been outside in winter, and immediately
take a PulseOX when you get inside, it might not be
accurate.

It's also not a good gadget, for someone with
Reynauds Syndrome (where many times a day, the
fingers have no blood in them). The little machine
would probably not even know it was clamped to a
finger in that case :-) It would probably think
it was scanning a sausage.

I have a PulseOX here, and it seems to be consistent.
It's never dropped below 90% on me so far. But then,
I got it well after I was having trouble. So it sits
there for "next time". I like the machine mainly because
it "looks like a cardiogram", and you can see ripple
in the blood flow waveform, that corresponds to a
fluttery feeling in the chest. It can confirm that
you've "still got a pulse" :-)

The screen output on mine looks like this. And I do
like the waveform feature, because you can see
a correspondence between the waveform, and when
you have a "fluttery feeling" in the chest.

https://www.did.ie/homedics-oxywatch...-px-101-eu-prd

I'm sure if a doctor looked at your pulseOX, he would
entirely ignore the waveform as being "irrelevant".
I like doctors. Only the tests they order are "relevant".
Your anecdotal observations are to be thrown in the
trash. Just ask some dead people, how that worked
out for them.

Paul

[Paul[_46_]]

Jeff Layman wrote:
On 01/01/2021 07:22, Andy Burns wrote:
jon wrote:

My wife has Pulmonary Hypertension and gets breathless quickly, so I
bought her one of these for Christmas.....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086ZQ8D4W
Seems that's not the air concentrator type discussed before, but one
that splits water?

No, it is a concentrator. See penultimate bullet point under main heading:
"�¤ ã€�Molecular Sieve Oxygen Generator】 Molecular sieve oxygen generator
is an advanced gas separation technology. The physical method (PSA
method) directly extracts oxygen from the air, which is ready for use,
fresh and natural. No atomization function. "

Were you perhaps confusing the need for water in the humidifier?


That might be their term for zeolite.

Paul

[Fredxx[_4_]]

On 01/01/2021 11:16, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:44, Fredxx wrote:

You beat me to it. I have 3 of the machines.

You use them all at once, or you keep them in different rooms, to save
carting them around?

Or, maybe you are just an ardent collector?

For oxy-propane cutting or heating they replace a bottle, it's rental
and cost of (re)filling.

[Fredxx[_4_]]

On 01/01/2021 14:01, Paul wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
On 01/01/2021 07:22, Andy Burns wrote:
jon wrote:

My wife has Pulmonary Hypertension and gets breathless quickly, so I
bought her one of these for Christmas.....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086ZQ8D4W
Seems that's not the air concentrator type discussed before, but one
that splits water?

No, it is a concentrator. See penultimate bullet point under main
heading:
"�¤ ã€�Molecular Sieve Oxygen Generator】 Molecular sieve oxygen
generator is an advanced gas separation technology. The physical
method (PSA method) directly extracts oxygen from the air, which is
ready for use, fresh and natural. No atomization function. "

Were you perhaps confusing the need for water in the humidifier?


That might be their term for zeolite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite

which says, "Zeolites are microporous, aluminosilicate minerals commonly
used as commercial adsorbents and catalysts".

[GB]

On 01/01/2021 14:39, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/01/2021 11:16, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:44, Fredxx wrote:

You beat me to it. I have 3 of the machines.

You use them all at once, or you keep them in different rooms, to save
carting them around?

Or, maybe you are just an ardent collector?

For oxy-propane cutting or heating they replace a bottle, it's rental
and cost of (re)filling.



And there I was, feeling really sorry for you.

I'm really pleased that's all it is.

[Fredxx[_4_]]

On 01/01/2021 16:07, GB wrote:
On 01/01/2021 14:39, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/01/2021 11:16, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:44, Fredxx wrote:

You beat me to it. I have 3 of the machines.

You use them all at once, or you keep them in different rooms, to
save carting them around?

Or, maybe you are just an ardent collector?

For oxy-propane cutting or heating they replace a bottle, it's rental
and cost of (re)filling.



And there I was, feeling really sorry for you.

I'm really pleased that's all it is.

Oh yes, I hadn't thought of that interpretation! That's kind of you. :-)

I have a cutting torch which when used in non-cutting mode heats very
effectively. A more standard jet can be used for glass blowing on soda
and borosilicate glasses.

Unfortunately oxy-propane isn't quite hot enough to melt steel. For that
it's a MIG.

[David]

On Fri, 01 Jan 2021 05:19:32 +1100, Fred wrote:

David wrote

In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no spare beds, and
hospitals running out of oxygen.

It is a reasonable assumption that one could catch Covid,

Trivial to avoid that happening.

need oxygen, and find that there are no beds available and no spare
oxygen cylinders for home use as supplies have run out.

I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

Makes more sense to avoid getting infected or get vaccinated to avoid
severe disease and the need for oxygen.

snip

That seems on the face of it to be a brain dead response.

Avoiding catching Covid but also doing basics like shopping isn't a given.

Vaccination may not be available until the middle of the year.

Cheers



Dave R



--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

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