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How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 17th 03, 12:55 PM
Andy Hall
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Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

On 17 Aug 2003 04:05:15 -0700, (Jon Weaver)
wrote:

My conservatory gets finished this week, and I wanted to lay some
floor tiles ASAP.

I was under the impression that I could do this straight away, but I
have just read the 'Topps Tiles' brochure which says that a new
concrete floor should be left 6 weeks.

However, its not quite as black and white as that as the base of the
conservatory is a 'raft', so the floor (Slab) was laid at the same
time as the footings.

This part was finished exactly one month ago today and considering the
heat that we have had over the past few weeks, I would guess that its
dry by now.

Once the plastic has gone on, the builder is coming back to lay approx
80mm of screed onto of the concrete that he laid a month ago.

How quickly can I lay ceramic tiles onto this 'screed' layer? I would
understand leaving it for a few weeks if laying laminate, but didn't
think that tiles would be a problem.


I had a very similar scenario of timescales and was told to leave the
screed for 3 weeks before laying tiles. This was done and it has
been fine.


I was hoping to start as soon as next weekend but should I wait a
while?


Yes. One thing that you may well find useful is to wash over the
floor with a 1:5 solution of PVA adhesive to water. This will
provide a light seal and stop the release of dust.


If I need to wait, is there anything that I can do to speed up the
'drying' process (i.e a de-humidifier)?


It isn't a drying issue, but a chemical curing one. The screed
should be allowed to do that naturally.



If I should wait, but choose not too. What are the implications of
this?


The tiles may well lift.

You should wait......



..andy

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  #2  
Old August 18th 03, 05:04 PM
Christian McArdle
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Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

Once the plastic has gone on, the builder is coming back to lay approx
80mm of screed onto of the concrete that he laid a month ago.


Is there any insulation in this floor? There should be large chunks of
Jablite or similar going down, as well as the plastic sheet (DPM). Although
not compulsory in many conservatories, it should still be done for your own
comfort.

If I need to wait, is there anything that I can do to speed up the
'drying' process (i.e a de-humidifier)?



Concrete doesn't "dry". It sets. It actually needs water to set properly.
Removing the water by overdrying will actually slow down the setting process
(sometimes so much that it never completes) and damage the floor.

Basically, you should wait the recommended time scales. How does the phrase
go? Bodge in haste, repent as leisure. Or something like that. ;-)

Your floor will take much longer to complete if you disturb it too soon,
cause gaping cracks and need the whole lot ripping up again.

Christian.


  #3  
Old August 19th 03, 05:37 AM
Jon Weaver
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Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message .net...
Once the plastic has gone on, the builder is coming back to lay approx
80mm of screed onto of the concrete that he laid a month ago.


Is there any insulation in this floor? There should be large chunks of
Jablite or similar going down, as well as the plastic sheet (DPM). Although
not compulsory in many conservatories, it should still be done for your own
comfort.


There is going to be a DPM, but I must admit, I don't think that the
builder will be putting any insulation down! How thick would a layer
of Jablite be? Its not too late for me to get some myself and insist
on it being put under the screed.

Where would the insulation layer go, ontop, or under the DPM?



Basically, you should wait the recommended time scales. How does the phrase
go? Bodge in haste, repent as leisure. Or something like that. ;-)


I think that you are right.. However, I spoke to the 'tiler' who lives
opposite, and he said "nahh.. I have been tiling for 20 years and I
always lay straight onto the concrete.. As long as you give it a few
days to set, you will be fine".. This is the same attitude as my
builder who is doing the floor work for me. However, this is directly
against the advice that I seem to be getting from EVERYONE, including
the supplier of my tiles and manufacturer of the 'adhesive' (Dunlop)
who quotes 6 weeks for concrete and 3 weeks for screed!

Its amazing what 'tradesmen' get up to, and people questioned why I
wanted to keep an eye on my builder, to make sure he did things
correctly!

As always, a huge thanks for your advice

Jon
  #4  
Old August 19th 03, 09:03 AM
Christian McArdle
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Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

Where would the insulation layer go, ontop, or under the DPM?

AIUI, on top of the DPM. Someone more knowledgable than me will suggest the
exact ordering and thicknesses. However, I suspect 50mm of Jablite would
make a real difference, and 30mm of screed might work on top to make the
original thickness.

Christian.


  #5  
Old August 19th 03, 10:30 AM
The Natural Philosopher
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Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

Christian McArdle wrote:

Where would the insulation layer go, ontop, or under the DPM?


AIUI, on top of the DPM. Someone more knowledgable than me will suggest the
exact ordering and thicknesses. However, I suspect 50mm of Jablite would
make a real difference, and 30mm of screed might work on top to make the
original thickness.

Christian.




Actually it makes sod all difference where the DPM goes. Above or below
the insulation. I asked teh architecet, and he just shrugged.

I put mine ABOVE for the imple practical reason that it wouldnt get
puntured on teh rather rough surface underneath - the insulation is very
good as covering sharp lumps

50mm blue/pink foam is excellent. 75mm is even better. At LEAST 75mm
screed, and more if you can fit it in.


  #6  
Old August 19th 03, 10:30 PM
Jon Weaver
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Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...
Christian McArdle wrote:

Where would the insulation layer go, ontop, or under the DPM?


AIUI, on top of the DPM. Someone more knowledgable than me will suggest the
exact ordering and thicknesses. However, I suspect 50mm of Jablite would
make a real difference, and 30mm of screed might work on top to make the
original thickness.

Christian.




Actually it makes sod all difference where the DPM goes. Above or below
the insulation. I asked teh architecet, and he just shrugged.

I put mine ABOVE for the imple practical reason that it wouldnt get
puntured on teh rather rough surface underneath - the insulation is very
good as covering sharp lumps

50mm blue/pink foam is excellent. 75mm is even better. At LEAST 75mm
screed, and more if you can fit it in.


My problem is that the current 'slab' height means that it will be
impossible to raise the floor by any more than 100mm.. So, If I have
to add 50mm of insulation and 75mm of screed, the only physically way
possible would be to lower the slab by 25mm, and as you will imagine,
this impossible.

A colleague of mine (who is building his own house) has suggested that
I go for 50mm of insulation and 50mm of screed, but use a steel mesh
to re-enforce the screed.

My other option of course is to forget ever having asked the question,
and go along with the plan WITHOUT insulation.

If I can get away with 50mm of each and a steel mesh, I might be
tempted to get the bits that I need and ask the builder to do this
when he lays the screed at the weekend.
  #7  
Old August 20th 03, 09:30 AM
Christian McArdle
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Posts: n/a
Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

My problem is that the current 'slab' height means that it will
be impossible to raise the floor by any more than 100mm.. So,
If I have to add 50mm of insulation and 75mm of screed, the only
physically way possible would be to lower the slab by 25mm, and
as you will imagine, this impossible.


Well, 25mm of insulation would be infinitely better than none. That would
allow 75mm of screed.

Christian.


  #8  
Old August 20th 03, 10:35 AM
The Natural Philosopher
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Posts: n/a
Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

Jon Weaver wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...

Christian McArdle wrote:


Where would the insulation layer go, ontop, or under the DPM?


AIUI, on top of the DPM. Someone more knowledgable than me will suggest the
exact ordering and thicknesses. However, I suspect 50mm of Jablite would
make a real difference, and 30mm of screed might work on top to make the
original thickness.

Christian.




Actually it makes sod all difference where the DPM goes. Above or below
the insulation. I asked teh architecet, and he just shrugged.

I put mine ABOVE for the imple practical reason that it wouldnt get
puntured on teh rather rough surface underneath - the insulation is very
good as covering sharp lumps

50mm blue/pink foam is excellent. 75mm is even better. At LEAST 75mm
screed, and more if you can fit it in.


My problem is that the current 'slab' height means that it will be
impossible to raise the floor by any more than 100mm.. So, If I have
to add 50mm of insulation and 75mm of screed, the only physically way
possible would be to lower the slab by 25mm, and as you will imagine,
this impossible.

A colleague of mine (who is building his own house) has suggested that
I go for 50mm of insulation and 50mm of screed, but use a steel mesh
to re-enforce the screed.



Mmm. Actually for reason I'll explain, I'd use chicken wire.

The problem with thin scred over insulation, is that heavy pinted object
- chair leg etc - over a small area could compress the insulation and
crack teh screed. So you want a lot of local reniforcement rather than
overall reinforcement. Chicken wire or the sort of mesh that used to
render over on walls etc would I think be better able to do this.

Try and use the insulation if you can. If you slate or laminate the
floor afterwards that will also help load spereading.





My other option of course is to forget ever having asked the question,
and go along with the plan WITHOUT insulation.

If I can get away with 50mm of each and a steel mesh, I might be
tempted to get the bits that I need and ask the builder to do this
when he lays the screed at the weekend.



  #9  
Old August 20th 03, 02:49 PM
Jon Weaver
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Posts: n/a
Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...
Jon Weaver wrote:

Where would the insulation layer go, ontop, or under the DPM?


AIUI, on top of the DPM. Someone more knowledgable than me will suggest the
exact ordering and thicknesses. However, I suspect 50mm of Jablite would
make a real difference, and 30mm of screed might work on top to make the
original thickness.

Christian.




Actually it makes sod all difference where the DPM goes. Above or below
the insulation. I asked teh architecet, and he just shrugged.

I put mine ABOVE for the imple practical reason that it wouldnt get
puntured on teh rather rough surface underneath - the insulation is very
good as covering sharp lumps

50mm blue/pink foam is excellent. 75mm is even better. At LEAST 75mm
screed, and more if you can fit it in.


This whole issue of insulation re-opens a can of worms already
discussed in the following thread:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ogle.com#link1

Basically, the problem here was that I was planning to install my ring
main into the cavity, which contained insulation.

It seems that 2.5mm cable surrounded by insulation is not able to
carry the current required for a 32A ring main.

The solution to this was to simply no add the insulation into the
cavity.

However, in order to get the cable from the cavity, to a suitable
point behind a socket to gain access to the existing ring, I have run
the cables under the dwarf wall and along the slab for around 8-10".
This is protected by some metal capping and I intended to lay the DPC
and screed directly on top.

However, if I am now going to be adding some insulation, then I will
be back to square one, as the Electrical regs state that an 2.5mm
cable surrounded in insluation is not suitable for a 32A ring main.

I can't seem to win here!.

Can anyone comment on this? Bearing in mind that the lengh of the
inslated cable is less than 10", is it really a concern? I guess that
a consideration is that the insluation won't be 'surrounding' the
cable, instead it will simply be on top... A crude cross section of
the installation is as follows:

----------------
Ceramic Tiles
----------------
Adhesive
----------------

Screed

----------------

Insulation

----------------
++++++++++++++++ DPC
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metal Capping
================ 2.5mm Cables (Layed side by side)
----------------


Concrete


----------------


Why not lay them in the screed then?


Good point.. I suppose I could, however, I have already installed the
metal capping.. It would mean ripping it all up and messinging about
with it, whilst the builder is trying to work.

Thinking about it, I don't think that it would do any harm, to leave
the cable un-covered.. The area in question would only be 100x400mm
and I don't really think that this would affect the efficiency of the
insulation.
  #10  
Old August 20th 03, 02:53 PM
Martin Angove
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Posts: n/a
Default How soon can I tile a new concrete floor?

In message ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Jon Weaver wrote:



Can anyone comment on this? Bearing in mind that the lengh of the
inslated cable is less than 10", is it really a concern? I guess that
a consideration is that the insluation won't be 'surrounding' the
cable, instead it will simply be on top... A crude cross section of
the installation is as follows:

----------------
Ceramic Tiles
----------------
Adhesive
----------------

Screed

----------------

Insulation

----------------
++++++++++++++++ DPC
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metal Capping
================ 2.5mm Cables (Layed side by side)
----------------


Concrete


----------------


Why not lay them in the screed then?


According to table 3A in the On Site Guide, PVC cable is "unsuitable for
embedding directly in concrete".

However, I will re-state my previous advice. In the situation described
above, 2.5mm cable *is* suitable for carrying the current of a 32A ring
main. It may be "covered" with insulation, but it is "in contact with a
[thermally] conductive surface on one side" (method 15) and is therefore
capable of carrying up to 21A (table 6F, OSG). There *may* be a grouping
issue, but I don't think so over this short distance with FTE.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Don't fight technology, live with it: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
.... Visa, Visa, Viso - I shopped, I shopped, I ran out of cash.
 




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