Got up the other day to find my van was dead.
No problem, I thought, battery is flat [1] I'll charge it up.
2 hours later the charging current was less than 1A and the voltage was up
to 14.6V.

But as soon the key was turned the pre-heater relay started chattering.
Investigations showed the battery was unable to receive a charge and could
only deliver a few amps. Battery only about 2.5 years old.

Was told when I went to buy a replacement "if Calcium batteries
go flat they die".

Q1. What is a Calcium version of a Lead Acid battery?
Q2. Other than my experience is it true that they are less robust (to deep
discharge).

The original (FIAT) battery spec was 12V 380A 60Ahr.
The new one is Halfords 12V 600A @ -30C + reserve of 25A for 1 hour.


[1] The interior light (probably 1.75A) might have been on all night due
to an improperly closed door rear door. This should not have taken all the
power out of the battery but may be it wasn't fully charged prior.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
Got up the other day to find my van was dead.
No problem, I thought, battery is flat [1] I'll charge it up.
2 hours later the charging current was less than 1A and the voltage was up
to 14.6V.

But as soon the key was turned the pre-heater relay started chattering.
Investigations showed the battery was unable to receive a charge and could
only deliver a few amps. Battery only about 2.5 years old.

Was told when I went to buy a replacement "if Calcium batteries
go flat they die".

Q1. What is a Calcium version of a Lead Acid battery?

I believe it is a longer-life version of a normal lead-acid. I don't
understand the chemistry,
something to do with calcium ions. I think they're supposed to last three
years.

Is it possible a film has built up on the plates? Have you tried those
desulphating
tablets? They didn't work on my battery when I tried them, but it isn't
calcium and
it failed over a slightly longer period than yours.

Andy.

Ed Sirett wrote:
Got up the other day to find my van was dead.
No problem, I thought, battery is flat [1] I'll charge it up.
2 hours later the charging current was less than 1A and the voltage was up
to 14.6V.

But as soon the key was turned the pre-heater relay started chattering.
Investigations showed the battery was unable to receive a charge and could
only deliver a few amps. Battery only about 2.5 years old.

Was told when I went to buy a replacement "if Calcium batteries
go flat they die".

Q1. What is a Calcium version of a Lead Acid battery?
Q2. Other than my experience is it true that they are less robust (to deep

Car batteries of any sort may die due to deep discharge - the plates can
buckle and short.
Calcium is an alloying element added.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Ed Sirett wrote:
Got up the other day to find my van was dead.
No problem, I thought, battery is flat [1] I'll charge it up.
2 hours later the charging current was less than 1A and the voltage was
up
to 14.6V.

But as soon the key was turned the pre-heater relay started chattering.
Investigations showed the battery was unable to receive a charge and
could
only deliver a few amps. Battery only about 2.5 years old.

Was told when I went to buy a replacement "if Calcium batteries
go flat they die".

Q1. What is a Calcium version of a Lead Acid battery?
Q2. Other than my experience is it true that they are less robust (to
deep

Car batteries of any sort may die due to deep discharge - the plates can
buckle and short.
Calcium is an alloying element added.


AFAIK
calcium batteries need a special charger
i was told that a normal type of charger will damage the battery

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
Got up the other day to find my van was dead.
No problem, I thought, battery is flat [1] I'll charge it up.
2 hours later the charging current was less than 1A and the voltage was up
to 14.6V.

But as soon the key was turned the pre-heater relay started chattering.
Investigations showed the battery was unable to receive a charge and could
only deliver a few amps. Battery only about 2.5 years old.

Was told when I went to buy a replacement "if Calcium batteries
go flat they die".

Q1. What is a Calcium version of a Lead Acid battery?
Q2. Other than my experience is it true that they are less robust (to deep
discharge).

The original (FIAT) battery spec was 12V 380A 60Ahr.
The new one is Halfords 12V 600A @ -30C + reserve of 25A for 1 hour.


[1] The interior light (probably 1.75A) might have been on all night due
to an improperly closed door rear door. This should not have taken all the
power out of the battery but may be it wasn't fully charged prior.

Apparently they've been having problems with them. Prone to sudden failure
after as
little as a year ( they are guaranteed for 4 years ).
Try www.fordscorpio.co.uk/battery.htm as a start, and maybe search around
the Internet a bit.

Andy.

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
Got up the other day to find my van was dead. No problem, I thought,
battery is flat [1] I'll charge it up. 2 hours later the charging
current was less than 1A and the voltage was up to 14.6V.

But as soon the key was turned the pre-heater relay started chattering.
Investigations showed the battery was unable to receive a charge and
could only deliver a few amps. Battery only about 2.5 years old.

Was told when I went to buy a replacement "if Calcium batteries go flat
they die".

It's a fine art making lead acid batteries last only as long as the
warranty.

Q1. What is a Calcium version of a Lead Acid battery? Q2. Other than my
experience is it true that they are less robust (to deep discharge).

No lead acid can stand deep discharge without effecting its life. But some
are better than others.

The original (FIAT) battery spec was 12V 380A 60Ahr. The new one is
Halfords 12V 600A @ -30C + reserve of 25A for 1 hour.

At least with a Halfords one they should honor the warranty regardless.
BMW, for example, record the battery state in the ECU - and if you've run
it below a certain level by leaving the car parked for more than about 2
weeks, won't replace a failed one under warranty.


[1] The interior light (probably 1.75A) might have been on all night due
to an improperly closed door rear door. This should not have taken all
the power out of the battery but may be it wasn't fully charged prior.

--
*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Oh yes?? So therefore you need a special alternator too??

Probably just SALES crap.

Check to see if one of the terminal posts is moveable where it enters
the battery case itself. High currents can kill that internal
connection from the plates to the terminal post.

Chris.

In article ,
mindwipe wrote:
calcium batteries need a special charger
i was told that a normal type of charger will damage the battery

I reckon you're thinking of gel SLA types. Not used on cars.

But if you needed a special charger, you'd also need a special alternator.

--
*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy wrote:
Apparently they've been having problems with them. Prone to sudden
failure after as little as a year ( they are guaranteed for 4 years ).

The factory fit one on my car died without any warning a few days after
the three year warranty. ;-)

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
mindwipe wrote:
calcium batteries need a special charger
i was told that a normal type of charger will damage the battery

I reckon you're thinking of gel SLA types. Not used on cars.

But if you needed a special charger, you'd also need a special alternator.

Actually, just a special regulator.
Calcium alloyed batteries do have a slightly different charged voltage.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:17:08 UTC, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy wrote:
Apparently they've been having problems with them. Prone to sudden
failure after as little as a year ( they are guaranteed for 4 years ).

The factory fit one on my car died without any warning a few days after
the three year warranty. ;-)

You should have taken it apart and looked for the clock calendar chip!

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://laminateflooring.oncloud8.com

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
snip

Car batteries of any sort may die due to deep discharge - the
plates can
buckle and short.

Yes, but this wasn't, according to the OP, leaving a interior light
on over night is not going to cause the problems of a deep discharge.

I suspect the battery was just life expired.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
mindwipe wrote:
calcium batteries need a special charger
i was told that a normal type of charger will damage the battery

I reckon you're thinking of gel SLA types. Not used on cars.

But if you needed a special charger, you'd also need a special
alternator.

Actually, just a special regulator.
Calcium alloyed batteries do have a slightly different charged
voltage.

But then there would be problems if a normal lead acid battery was
fitted, are you saying that lead acid batteries can't be fitted to
vehicles that had calcium batteries from the factory or are you just
a worthless ignorant fool who believes marketing blurb?....

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

At least with a Halfords one they should honor the warranty
regardless.
BMW, for example, record the battery state in the ECU - and if
you've run
it below a certain level by leaving the car parked for more than
about 2
weeks, won't replace a failed one under warranty.


I would love to see that to go to court....

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:58:16 +0000, Ian Stirling wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:


Q1. What is a Calcium version of a Lead Acid battery?
Q2. Other than my experience is it true that they are less robust (to deep

Car batteries of any sort may die due to deep discharge - the plates can
buckle and short.
Calcium is an alloying element added.

Point taken, but this was hardly an old battery, nor a high current
drain. My feeling is that a normal would not likely have dies so easily.
Or is that just my irritation talking?

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:12:17 +0100, Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:58:16 +0000, Ian Stirling wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:


Q1. What is a Calcium version of a Lead Acid battery?
Q2. Other than my experience is it true that they are less robust (to deep

Car batteries of any sort may die due to deep discharge - the plates can
buckle and short.
Calcium is an alloying element added.

Point taken, but this was hardly an old battery, nor a high current
drain. My feeling is that a normal would not likely have dies so easily.
Or is that just my irritation talking?

Hi,

Might be worth checking the tension on the fan belt, if the battery
has been working at a low state of charge it won't do it any good.

cheers,
Pete.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
snip

I didn't see the original posting, but IME deep discharging a car
battery, by allowing a current drain of 200mA for a couple of
weeks,
for example, kills them stone dead. No matter if they're new or
not.

Well, considering that in my trade cars can be sitting around some
weeks (whilst claimants, loss adjusters and anyone else do their
work) if you were correct we would be fitting many more new batteries
than we do...

The batteries on my Cosworth used to last until the first time we
went
on holiday and left the car to stand for a week or two, after which
the
battery would not hold a charge.

Hell, cars sit around dealers yards longer than that...

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:46:59 +0100, ":::Jerry::::" wrote:

"Huge" wrote in message
...

The batteries on my Cosworth used to last until the first time we went
on holiday and left the car to stand for a week or two, after which the
battery would not hold a charge.

Hell, cars sit around dealers yards longer than that...

IIRC, the problem was that an alarm system was drawing a heavy current. So
you'd have to disable that or provide an external power supply or trickle
charge if leaving such a car for any length of time.

--
Gooooooood Morning Cyberspace

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:46:33 +0100, Huge wrote:

I didn't see the original posting, but IME deep discharging a car
battery, by allowing a current drain of 200mA for a couple of weeks,
for example, kills them stone dead.

Lead-acids of the automotive type really dislike being taken below 80% of
capacity. Taking them to 20% of full charge on a regular basis reduces the
lifetime in cycles by a factor of about 10. There are lead acids designed
for taking this treatment, leisure type and traction duty (think milk
floats) which will go into deep discharge without damage. The problem is
they are not designed for suddenly dumping a couple of hundred amps at the
drop of a hat.

John Schmitt

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

"Huge" wrote in message
...
John Laird writes:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:46:59 +0100, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:

"Huge" wrote in message
...

The batteries on my Cosworth used to last until the first time
we went
on holiday and left the car to stand for a week or two, after
which the
battery would not hold a charge.

Hell, cars sit around dealers yards longer than that...

What, you think I'm lying?

I think that *you* might have problems, not that you are lying about
any fault you might have / had with the car, battery or self...


IIRC, the problem was that an alarm system was drawing a heavy
current.

Not just an alarm. I never managed to measure the current, since
the
inrush current upon connecting the battery blew the 2 amp fuse in
my
ammeter.


That about sums this all up.... :~(

In article ,
Huge wrote:
IIRC, the problem was that an alarm system was drawing a heavy current.

Not just an alarm. I never managed to measure the current, since the
inrush current upon connecting the battery blew the 2 amp fuse in my
ammeter.

On my SD1, connecting the battery operates the central locking. So to find
out the true quiescent current, use a jumper in parallel with the DVM (ie
short it out) in ammeter mode until things have stabilised then remove it.

FWIW, I found the central locking to be a major culprit - drawing about 30
mA all the time. Thank you Lucas. So I made a new controller using CMOS
7555 timers which got it down to 0.018 mA.

--
*All generalizations are false.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 20:10:39 +0100, Pete C wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:12:17 +0100, Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:58:16 +0000, Ian Stirling wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:


Q1. What is a Calcium version of a Lead Acid battery?
Q2. Other than my experience is it true that they are less robust (to deep

Car batteries of any sort may die due to deep discharge - the plates can
buckle and short.
Calcium is an alloying element added.

Point taken, but this was hardly an old battery, nor a high current
drain. My feeling is that a normal would not likely have dies so easily.
Or is that just my irritation talking?

Hi,

Might be worth checking the tension on the fan belt, if the battery
has been working at a low state of charge it won't do it any good.

I'm fairly happy about the state of other aspects of the vehicles
electrics. There was no problem when the van was idle for about 8 days a
couple of times over the summer. There is no screeching when a high
current load is switched on at low revs. Then van would run fine once
started even with it's dead battery (which is how I got it to Halfords).

I just reckon that a 2.5 year old normal lead acid battery would have not
succumbed to one episode of deep discharge.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:
IIRC, the problem was that an alarm system was drawing a heavy current.

Not just an alarm. I never managed to measure the current, since the
inrush current upon connecting the battery blew the 2 amp fuse in my
ammeter.

On my SD1, connecting the battery operates the central locking. So to find
out the true quiescent current, use a jumper in parallel with the DVM (ie
short it out) in ammeter mode until things have stabilised then remove it.

FWIW, I found the central locking to be a major culprit - drawing about 30
mA all the time. Thank you Lucas. So I made a new controller using CMOS
7555 timers which got it down to 0.018 mA.

A drain of 30mA is hardly worth worrying about is it? I doubt if it
makes much difference when compared with the inherent self discharge
rate of the battery. If you have a (say) 50Ah battery a 30mA
discharge will take something like two months to discharge it.

I suppose that's a bit faster than self discharge, but not much.

--
Chris Green

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 09:13:24 +0100, wrote:


A drain of 30mA is hardly worth worrying about is it? I doubt if it
makes much difference when compared with the inherent self discharge
rate of the battery. If you have a (say) 50Ah battery a 30mA
discharge will take something like two months to discharge it.

I rather get the impression that the car only gets used on sunny Sundays.
I used to have a BSA 1951 Tour of Britain Sports in almost mint condition.
That only came out of the shed on special occasions. It certainly wasn't
as sure-footed as my modern racer, but it had a certain character. Both
were victims of bicycle thieves.
:-(

John Schmitt

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Ed Sirett wrote:
Got up the other day to find my van was dead.
No problem, I thought, battery is flat [1] I'll charge it up.
2 hours later the charging current was less than 1A and the voltage was up
to 14.6V.

But as soon the key was turned the pre-heater relay started chattering.
Investigations showed the battery was unable to receive a charge and could
only deliver a few amps. Battery only about 2.5 years old.

Was told when I went to buy a replacement "if Calcium batteries
go flat they die".



The battery on my second and not used very often car went flat not long
ago and wouldn't take much of a charge. It is a halfords calcium one
with a FOUR year warranty but I couldn't find the receipt. I think the
alternator belt had been slipping a little bit. I topped up one of the
sections with battery water added some of those battery rejuvinator
tablets and started a cycle of charging, then turning the engine over
on the starter motor, then charging again and after a few days the
battery now holds enough charge to keep the car going. I'm not sure
how long it'll last but may be worth a try in your case. All depends
on your attitude to risk I guess.

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Huge" wrote in message
...
snip

I didn't see the original posting, but IME deep discharging a car
battery, by allowing a current drain of 200mA for a couple of
weeks,
for example, kills them stone dead. No matter if they're new or
not.

Well, considering that in my trade cars can be sitting around some
weeks (whilst claimants, loss adjusters and anyone else do their
work) if you were correct we would be fitting many more new batteries
than we do...

The batteries on my Cosworth used to last until the first time we
went
on holiday and left the car to stand for a week or two, after which
the
battery would not hold a charge.

Hell, cars sit around dealers yards longer than that...

See
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/.../02/ixmot.html

for the story of what happened to one guy trying to jump start his DB7
which drains it's battery if left for more than a few days. S short
quote "Many Astons have starting problems. Their electrical systems
drain a 12-volt battery if left for more than a few days, and only the
newest ones have a sleep mode. In four years of DB7 ownership I have
got through three batteries".

MBQ

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
mindwipe wrote:
calcium batteries need a special charger
i was told that a normal type of charger will damage the battery

I reckon you're thinking of gel SLA types. Not used on cars.

But if you needed a special charger, you'd also need a special
alternator.

Actually, just a special regulator.
Calcium alloyed batteries do have a slightly different charged
voltage.

But then there would be problems if a normal lead acid battery was
fitted, are you saying that lead acid batteries can't be fitted to
vehicles that had calcium batteries from the factory or are you just
a worthless ignorant fool who believes marketing blurb?....

Kids are back in school, :::Jerry::::s back with his childish posting.
Did the teacher leave you alone in the IT lab again?

MBQ

In article ,
John Schmitt wrote:
A drain of 30mA is hardly worth worrying about is it? I doubt if it
makes much difference when compared with the inherent self discharge
rate of the battery. If you have a (say) 50Ah battery a 30mA
discharge will take something like two months to discharge it.

I rather get the impression that the car only gets used on sunny
Sundays.

Yes - although depending on work patterns it might get used several times
a week - or not for several.

There are several things drawing current all the time - radio, OBC,
alarm/immobiliser and central locking. So I'm trying to reduce the total
to under 50mA.

The central locking came under attention first because it wasn't working
properly anyway.

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 8 Sep 2005 08:56:32 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

Ed Sirett writes:

[32 lines snipped]

I just reckon that a 2.5 year old normal lead acid battery would have not
succumbed to one episode of deep discharge.

I'm afraid it would.

I think you're right. They just don't like it (Captain Manwaring).

--
There should be a law to hunt those things with 12 ga. shotguns!

wrote in message
ups.com...

snip

Kids are back in school, snip the rest of your worthless idiot
troll

Yes, the idiot trolls, with their Hotmail account and posting via
Google groups, have access to college or school computers again...

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 08:56:32 +0000, Huge wrote:

Ed Sirett writes:

[32 lines snipped]

I just reckon that a 2.5 year old normal lead acid battery would have not
succumbed to one episode of deep discharge.

So when occasionally the battery went flat on vehicles I had in the past I
was lucky that they always recharged OK?

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Huge wrote:
John Laird writes:
(Huge) wrote:
Ed Sirett writes:
I just reckon that a 2.5 year old normal lead acid battery would have not
succumbed to one episode of deep discharge.

I'm afraid it would.

They just don't like it (Captain Manwaring).

... up 'em!

Lance-Corporal Jones, not Capt. Mainwaring. Must be an attack of the
Fuzzy-Wuzzies. Stupid boy.

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I just reckon that a 2.5 year old normal lead acid battery would have
not succumbed to one episode of deep discharge.

So when occasionally the battery went flat on vehicles I had in the past
I was lucky that they always recharged OK?

They probably won't have quite the same capacity as before, but might
still work ok.

The calcium battery in my SD1 has been run so low the indicator says
'replace' but has been ok with a long external recharge, and gone back to
'green'.

--
*24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 20:40:12 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:

John Laird writes:

They just don't like it (Captain Manwaring).

Lance-Corporal Jones, not Capt. Mainwaring. Must be an attack of the
Fuzzy-Wuzzies. Stupid boy.

I meant it as an addition to the remark, not as a note on who was saying it.
But thanks for the spelling correction anyway ;-)

--
Amish Pickup Lines: Thy buggy has a bitchin' lacquer job!

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

snip

Kids are back in school, snip the rest of your worthless idiot
troll

Yes, the idiot trolls, with their Hotmail account and posting via
Google groups, have access to college or school computers again...

Sorry Jerry, but I was serious, not trolling, and you'll see I've been
posting throughout the holiday. I can't get access to any news servers
through the firewall here and Google groups works for me so what the
heck.

MBQ