I recently changed my house central heating system and now have a number
of items that are too useful to just bin. These would be useful as a
cheap way for a DIYer to upgrade or renovate their existing heating
system. Or just to keep as spares.

* Range Hercal foam-lagged 117l grade 3 indirect hot water cylinder
including 3kW immersion heater. Cylinder size 900x450mm (NB excludes
foam lagging). Suitable for gravity or pumped systems with working
head up to 10m. Pictu
http://gallery.jifvik.org:9999/gallery/forsale/img_5217
Close-up of label:
http://gallery.jifvik.org:9999/gallery/forsale/img_5215

As you can see there's also the sturdy table it came with, and
a little pipework with the drain.

This website (not mine) has more technical details on it:
http://www.cosy-heating.co.uk/cylinders.html

Approx 3 years old. System always had inhibitor. Worked perfectly for
the little time we had it! New price: £186. Selling for £20 (but see
bottom of post).

* Grundfos Selectric UPS 15-50 central heating pump. Selectable between
three speeds. Includes isolation valves. Pictu
http://gallery.jifvik.org:9999/galle...mg_5216?full=1
Includes installation leaflet.

This website (not mine) has more technical details on it:
http://www.cosy-heating.co.uk/pumps.html

Approx 4 years old. New price £59. Selling for £15.

* Drayton Tempus 7 central heating controller. 7 day programming,
supports gravity-fed and fully pumped systems, easy-to-use, and
very flexible, should be straightforward to swap with any older
controller and trivial with another Tempus controller, about 6
years old but only appears to differ from existing Tempus 7 in
fascia, in as-new condition.

- Pic of controller and instructions:
http://gallery.jifvik.org:9999/gallery/forsale/img_5208

- Pic of interface with flap down to program it
http://gallery.jifvik.org:9999/gallery/forsale/img_5210

- A feeble attempt to show what's on the LCD display:
http://gallery.jifvik.org:9999/gallery/forsale/img_5212

I wrote more about it in this cam.misc post:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/cam...8b68b640b26579

New price: £58. Selling for £15.

For the cylinder and pump, buyer collects or arranges collection
from east Cambridge, Cambs. For the heating controller, it is
light enough to be posted in the UK for £2 P&P.

The e-mail address of this post works.

If you want any of the above items, but think I've not guessed a good
selling price, mail me an offer anyway, including "I'd like it for
free". If no-one else wants it at the asking price, you can have it!

If no-one asks, they go to the tip.

Jifl
--
--["No sense being pessimistic, it wouldn't work anyway"]-- Opinions==mine

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:

I recently changed my house central heating system and now have a
number of items that are too useful to just bin. These would be
useful as a cheap way for a DIYer to upgrade or renovate their
existing heating system. Or just to keep as spares.

I hope that doesn't mean that you've thrown away a perfectly good hot water
storage system and replaced it with a combi boiler! If you have, you may
live to regret it - in which case I would hang on to the cylinder etc.,
ready for subsequent re-installation!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Set Square wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:

I recently changed my house central heating system and now have a
number of items that are too useful to just bin. These would be
useful as a cheap way for a DIYer to upgrade or renovate their
existing heating system. Or just to keep as spares.

I hope that doesn't mean that you've thrown away a perfectly good hot wat=
er
storage system and replaced it with a combi boiler! If you have, you may
live to regret it - in which case I would hang on to the cylinder etc.,
ready for subsequent re-installation!

Unfortunately that cylinder doesn't even meet Part L afaics. It has a
BS date of 1984. The surface area of the coil is .44m2 and I would take
that spec cylinder for scrap only - a few quid.

The grundfos pumps go for about =A35 secondhand on carboot sales and
even some will barter down at that price, especially as there are signs
of rusting on the valves

You might have some luck selling the controller on ebay for about a
tenner.

Martyn

Set Square enlightened us with:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:

I recently changed my house central heating system and now have a
number of items that are too useful to just bin. These would be
useful as a cheap way for a DIYer to upgrade or renovate their
existing heating system. Or just to keep as spares.

I hope that doesn't mean that you've thrown away a perfectly good hot water
storage system and replaced it with a combi boiler!

Alas it wasn't perfectly good as the previous back boiler was about 30
years old, and I was informed its cast iron heat exchanger was on its
last legs. If I had got my arse into gear two years ago it might all
have been cheaper.

But, for better or worse, it's been replaced by a condenser because as
I'm sure a lot of uk.d-i-y knows, you now legally have to (unless
there's some reason you can't, e.g. not being able to physically fit
one). Although no doubt it's possible to find a certain type of
plumber who'll fit whatever boiler you want anyway.

It's a Vaillant which at least has had good comments on uk.d-i-y,
and I've had no complaints in the last, er, 3 weeks.

If you have, you may
live to regret it - in which case I would hang on to the cylinder etc.,
ready for subsequent re-installation!

Prescott doesn't legally allow that now. IIRC the regs don't mention
condensers explicitly, but give efficiency requirements that only
condensers meet.

Jifl
--
--["No sense being pessimistic, it wouldn't work anyway"]-- Opinions==mine

Martyn Pollard enlightened us with:


Set Square wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:

I recently changed my house central heating system and now have a
number of items that are too useful to just bin. These would be
useful as a cheap way for a DIYer to upgrade or renovate their
existing heating system. Or just to keep as spares.

I hope that doesn't mean that you've thrown away a perfectly good hot water
storage system and replaced it with a combi boiler! If you have, you may
live to regret it - in which case I would hang on to the cylinder etc.,
ready for subsequent re-installation!

Unfortunately that cylinder doesn't even meet Part L afaics. It has a
BS date of 1984. The surface area of the coil is .44m2 and I would take
that spec cylinder for scrap only - a few quid.

Cylinders like that one go for up to £50 on eBay without even an
immersion heater. I just want shot of it, not to make a big profit,
so thought £20 would be better. You can make me an offer or
say you'll take it only if it's free. That's fine as long as you
arrange collection :-).

The grundfos pumps go for about £5 secondhand on carboot sales and
even some will barter down at that price, especially as there are signs
of rusting on the valves

Normally they don't even come with the valves which are indeed much
older than the pump itself, which is obvious to see really. But they
were certainly working 100% in operation.

I just looked at eBay and they go (without valves) for £20-25, plus
postage of ~9, so if you see them in car boots for a fiver you
should snap it up and make a pretty profit on eBay!

Jifl
--
--["No sense being pessimistic, it wouldn't work anyway"]-- Opinions==mine

In article ,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:
I hope that doesn't mean that you've thrown away a perfectly good hot water
storage system and replaced it with a combi boiler!

Alas it wasn't perfectly good as the previous back boiler was about 30
years old, and I was informed its cast iron heat exchanger was on its
last legs. If I had got my arse into gear two years ago it might all
have been cheaper.

But, for better or worse, it's been replaced by a condenser because as
I'm sure a lot of uk.d-i-y knows, you now legally have to (unless
there's some reason you can't, e.g. not being able to physically fit
one). Although no doubt it's possible to find a certain type of
plumber who'll fit whatever boiler you want anyway.

You get condensing boilers for use with storage systems - ie not all are
combis.

--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:


I hope that doesn't mean that you've thrown away a perfectly good
hot water storage system and replaced it with a combi boiler!

Alas it wasn't perfectly good as the previous back boiler was about 30
years old, and I was informed its cast iron heat exchanger was on its
last legs. If I had got my arse into gear two years ago it might all
have been cheaper.

But, for better or worse, it's been replaced by a condenser because as
I'm sure a lot of uk.d-i-y knows, you now legally have to (unless
there's some reason you can't, e.g. not being able to physically fit
one). Although no doubt it's possible to find a certain type of
plumber who'll fit whatever boiler you want anyway.

You appear to be under the impression that 'condensing' and 'combi' are
synonymous - which they ain't!

You are right about the current regs requiring you to have a condensing
boiler. But that does *not* mean that you have to throw away your stored hot
water system in favour of (allegedly!) "instant" hot water from a combi. It
is perfectly possible to have a condensing boiler which provides stored hot
water in addition to running the central heating.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Set Square enlightened us with:


In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:


I hope that doesn't mean that you've thrown away a perfectly good
hot water storage system and replaced it with a combi boiler!

Alas it wasn't perfectly good as the previous back boiler was about 30
years old, and I was informed its cast iron heat exchanger was on its
last legs. If I had got my arse into gear two years ago it might all
have been cheaper.

But, for better or worse, it's been replaced by a condenser because as
I'm sure a lot of uk.d-i-y knows, you now legally have to (unless
there's some reason you can't, e.g. not being able to physically fit
one). Although no doubt it's possible to find a certain type of
plumber who'll fit whatever boiler you want anyway.

You appear to be under the impression that 'condensing' and 'combi' are
synonymous - which they ain't!

I was, thanks (and also to the other poster) for the correction. While I
knew not all combis were condensers, I had thought all condensers were
combis. So what I really meant to say was that I've got a condensing
combi .

You are right about the current regs requiring you to have a condensing
boiler. But that does *not* mean that you have to throw away your stored hot
water system in favour of (allegedly!) "instant" hot water from a combi.

I can vouch for mine being instant other than the time to travel the
length of the pipes. The difference being that it has a "warmstart"
feature to address the very problem you're hinting at.

It
is perfectly possible to have a condensing boiler which provides stored hot
water in addition to running the central heating.

It seems that a boiler with warmstart will be much more efficient as it
won't have to bring all of a 120l (or whatever) water cylinder up to
temperature for an extended period of time; just the water within the
(well-insulated) system inside the boiler. And at least for my model,
it seems to work. So with that, a stored hot water system is no longer
useful. Unless your boiler can't deliver the flow you need, although
you'll eventually run out of stored hot water until it has time to
catch up of course.

Jifl
--
--["No sense being pessimistic, it wouldn't work anyway"]-- Opinions==mine

In article ,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:
It is perfectly possible to have a condensing boiler which provides
stored hot water in addition to running the central heating.

It seems that a boiler with warmstart will be much more efficient as it
won't have to bring all of a 120l (or whatever) water cylinder up to
temperature for an extended period of time; just the water within the
(well-insulated) system inside the boiler.

Fine if the flow is adequate. Which isn't the case from combis when
filling a bath. Even the very best - and very expensive models - will be
some 4 times slower to fill a bath than a well designed storage system.
Most much, much more.

And at least for my model, it seems to work. So with that, a stored hot
water system is no longer useful.

Then it's likely you don't have baths?

Unless your boiler can't deliver the flow you need, although you'll
eventually run out of stored hot water until it has time to catch up of
course.

A fast recovery cylinder with a decent boiler can act like a modest combi,
so never run out of hot water.

--
*Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:


I can vouch for mine being instant other than the time to travel the
length of the pipes. The difference being that it has a "warmstart"
feature to address the very problem you're hinting at.

I wasn't really talking about washing your hands so much as about running a
bath. How long does it take to get a decent bathful of hot water compared
with your previous system (assuming your now-discarded cylinder was hot to
start with)?

In other words, once you've used up the combi's little store, at what rate
can it generate further hot water?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article , Dave Plowman
(News) wrote:
In article ,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:
It seems that a boiler with warmstart will be much more
efficient as it won't have to bring all of a 120l (or whatever)
water cylinder up to temperature for an extended period of
time; just the water within the (well-insulated) system inside
the boiler.

Fine if the flow is adequate. Which isn't the case from combis
when filling a bath. Even the very best - and very expensive
models - will be some 4 times slower to fill a bath than a well
designed storage system. Most much, much more.

And at least for my model, it seems to work. So with that, a
stored hot
water system is no longer useful.

Then it's likely you don't have baths?

I'll butt in here since it's more commonly me that fills the bath so
I'm in a better position than J to comment on the before/after
situation. I would say that it takes *marginally* longer with the new
system to fill the bath than it did before, but only very marginally.

And that is far outweighed (for us, I realise not necessarily for
people with more predictable habits) by the benefits of not having to
make sure there's enough hot water in the first place.

Vicky
--
"Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump. Piglet, meet me in transporter room
three. Christopher Robin, you have the bridge."

Vicky Larmour enlightened us with:
In article , Dave Plowman
(News) wrote:
In article ,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:
It seems that a boiler with warmstart will be much more
efficient as it won't have to bring all of a 120l (or whatever)
water cylinder up to temperature for an extended period of
time; just the water within the (well-insulated) system inside
the boiler.

Fine if the flow is adequate. Which isn't the case from combis
when filling a bath. Even the very best - and very expensive
models - will be some 4 times slower to fill a bath than a well
designed storage system. Most much, much more.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "well designed". But I would
have thought the only factors that will make any difference are the
head of water and pipe diameter. IIRC we had half-inch pipes from
the cylinder to the bath before. And header tanks in a pretty normal
place in the loft somewhat raised on a platform, and bathroom on
the first floor.

And at least for my model, it seems to work. So with that, a
stored hot
water system is no longer useful.

Then it's likely you don't have baths?

I'll butt in here since it's more commonly me that fills the bath so
I'm in a better position than J to comment on the before/after
situation. I would say that it takes *marginally* longer with the new
system to fill the bath than it did before, but only very marginally.

As a data point we have the Vaillant ecoMAX 828/2E which is 28kW.
Obviously a less powerful boiler would have a slower flow rate. Dave,
do you know the rating of the boiler(s) you've experienced before?

I will ignore derogatory comments elsewhere about my cleanliness ,
and make an observation that some of the other posters in this
thread should be jolly careful lest their cleaning habits be
published ;-P.

Jifl
--
--["No sense being pessimistic, it wouldn't work anyway"]-- Opinions==mine

In article ,
Vicky Larmour wrote:
And at least for my model, it seems to work. So with that, a
stored hot
water system is no longer useful.

Then it's likely you don't have baths?

I'll butt in here since it's more commonly me that fills the bath so
I'm in a better position than J to comment on the before/after
situation. I would say that it takes *marginally* longer with the new
system to fill the bath than it did before, but only very marginally.

That's fine then. It sounds like your old storage system had poor flow for
one reason or another, though.

--
*A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) enlightened us with:


In article ,
Vicky Larmour wrote:
And at least for my model, it seems to work. So with that, a
stored hot
water system is no longer useful.

Then it's likely you don't have baths?

I'll butt in here since it's more commonly me that fills the bath so
I'm in a better position than J to comment on the before/after
situation. I would say that it takes *marginally* longer with the new
system to fill the bath than it did before, but only very marginally.

That's fine then. It sounds like your old storage system had poor flow for
one reason or another, though.

Dunno, it seemed quite average (as in, typical), both in configuration and
performance.

The new boiler's spec says the flow rate is 11.5l/min for a 35degC
temp rise. Assuming an equal hot/cold mix, and an average bathtub
capacity of 200l which you would want approx half full, that's
just over 4 minutes to fill a bath.

The next boiler up in the range is 14.3l/min which would be 3 and a
half minutes.

Doesn't seem that long to me, including from my experience of other
peoples' and hotels' baths.

Jifl
--
--["No sense being pessimistic, it wouldn't work anyway"]-- Opinions==mine

In article ,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:
Fine if the flow is adequate. Which isn't the case from combis
when filling a bath. Even the very best - and very expensive
models - will be some 4 times slower to fill a bath than a well
designed storage system. Most much, much more.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "well designed". But I would
have thought the only factors that will make any difference are the
head of water and pipe diameter. IIRC we had half-inch pipes from
the cylinder to the bath before.

Right. You'd get poor flow with those - it should be 22mm or 3/4" in old
money.

And header tanks in a pretty normal
place in the loft somewhat raised on a platform, and bathroom on
the first floor.

Sounds like the head should be OK. And again with a low pressure system
you have to take more care with the pipework - bending the tube rather
than using elbows, etc to minimise resistance.

--
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:
The new boiler's spec says the flow rate is 11.5l/min for a 35degC
temp rise. Assuming an equal hot/cold mix, and an average bathtub
capacity of 200l which you would want approx half full, that's
just over 4 minutes to fill a bath.

I doubt you'd want a 50/50 mix for a decent bath. ;-)

The next boiler up in the range is 14.3l/min which would be 3 and a
half minutes.

Well, I reckon on near that time with a hot flow of just under 25 l/min at
60C. So someone has the calculations wrong.

Doesn't seem that long to me, including from my experience of other
peoples' and hotels' baths.

I've never seen a combi that can fill a bath with hot water in 3 or so
minutes. I doubt the average mains water supply could fill one with cold
in this time.

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Jonathan Larmour wrote:
Martyn Pollard enlightened us with:


Set Square wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:

I recently changed my house central heating system and now have a
number of items that are too useful to just bin. These would be
useful as a cheap way for a DIYer to upgrade or renovate their
existing heating system. Or just to keep as spares.

I hope that doesn't mean that you've thrown away a perfectly good hot water
storage system and replaced it with a combi boiler! If you have, you may
live to regret it - in which case I would hang on to the cylinder etc.,
ready for subsequent re-installation!

Unfortunately that cylinder doesn't even meet Part L afaics. It has a
BS date of 1984. The surface area of the coil is .44m2 and I would take
that spec cylinder for scrap only - a few quid.

Cylinders like that one go for up to £50 on eBay without even an
immersion heater. I just want shot of it, not to make a big profit,
so thought £20 would be better. You can make me an offer or
say you'll take it only if it's free. That's fine as long as you
arrange collection :-).

I'll happily collect for free if you don't get a better offer.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jonathan Larmour wrote:


The new boiler's spec says the flow rate is 11.5l/min for a 35degC
temp rise. Assuming an equal hot/cold mix, and an average bathtub
capacity of 200l which you would want approx half full, that's
just over 4 minutes to fill a bath.

Pretty dubious figures! Try these.

Cold water at 10 degC **, Mixed water at 40 degC (to allow for heating up
the bath itself and giving a comfortable final temperature).

You'll have 11.5 l/m of hot water at 45 degC. To get a mix of 40 degC,
you'll need SIX parts of hot to one of cold - i.e. about 2 l/m of cold -
making a total flow of 13.5 l/m

I always thought that a decent bath required about 30 gallons - which is
about 135 litres. You're thus looking at TEN minutes rather than four to
achieve that.

[To get a 50/50 mix of hot and cold, the temperature of the cold would have
to approach 25 degC - and I don't think it *ever* gets that high. You would
then have a total flow of 23 l/m which your mains supply may well not be
able to sustain].

** Reasonable average throughout the year - higher in the summer, and lower
in the winter
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Alan Braggins enlightened us with:


In article , Jonathan Larmour wrote:

Cylinders like that one go for up to £50 on eBay without even an
immersion heater. I just want shot of it, not to make a big profit,
so thought £20 would be better. You can make me an offer or
say you'll take it only if it's free. That's fine as long as you
arrange collection :-).

I'll happily collect for free if you don't get a better offer.

Someone's taking the heating controller, but no-one else wanted the
cylinder or pump so it looks like they're yours!

Mail me to suggest some convenient time for collection, although
evenings after 6.30 are most likely to work.

Jifl
--
--["No sense being pessimistic, it wouldn't work anyway"]-- Opinions==mine