Combi boiler: Water Softener a good idea?
 

To quote the installation manual for the Greenstar 40 HE plus:

--------------------------------------------------------
"In exceptionally hard water areas a device to prevent
scale formation may be fitted or, alternatively, the maxi-
mum temperature reset to about 45°C which may
reduce the risk of scale formation. The installation of a
scale inhibitor assembly should be in accordance with
the requirements of the local water company. Artificially
softened water must not be used to fill the central heat-
ing system. An isolating valve should be fitted to allow
for servicing. "
-------------------------------------------------------

According to Wessex Water, my water hardness is 280 ppm, which is
classified as hard.

Should I install a softener?

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?

Thanks

Mr F

Should I install a softener?

Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.

2. Phosphate dosing capsule, which will reduce scaling on heating
appliances, but have few additional benefits. They have moderate cost.

3. Electronic/magnetic conditioner, which help boost the bank accounts of
the charlatans that sell them.

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?

It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.

Christian.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:53:47 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Should I install a softener?

Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.

Can be as little as £300, which vs. £100 or so for phosphate doser is
not a huge jump.

The consumable (salt grains or tablets) for a softener are offset by
savings in detergents and shampoos.



2. Phosphate dosing capsule, which will reduce scaling on heating
appliances, but have few additional benefits. They have moderate cost.

3. Electronic/magnetic conditioner, which help boost the bank accounts of
the charlatans that sell them.

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?

It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.

Christian.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Should I install a softener?

Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.

2. Phosphate dosing capsule, which will reduce scaling on heating
appliances, but have few additional benefits. They have moderate cost.

3. Electronic/magnetic conditioner, which help boost the bank accounts of
the charlatans that sell them.

Strange that the many major cylinder and boiler manufacturers recommend
them. I think W-B recommend them too. Gledhill, a quality company, do.

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?

It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.

If you have a dish washer that is really not an issue.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:53:47 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Should I install a softener?

Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.

Can be as little as £300, which vs. £100 or so for phosphate doser is
not a huge jump.

£100? They around £45 in the sheds inc' canister.

The consumable (salt grains or tablets) for a softener are offset by
savings in detergents and shampoos.

Not much.

Must a water softener go in the kitchen? I don't have a utility room,
and intend to put the new boiler in the loft.

I guess it wouldn't be practical to put the water softener in the loft
due to the frequent need to refill with salt?

Mr F.


On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:58:25 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:53:47 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Should I install a softener?

Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.

Can be as little as £300, which vs. £100 or so for phosphate doser is
not a huge jump.

The consumable (salt grains or tablets) for a softener are offset by
savings in detergents and shampoos.



2. Phosphate dosing capsule, which will reduce scaling on heating
appliances, but have few additional benefits. They have moderate cost.

3. Electronic/magnetic conditioner, which help boost the bank accounts of
the charlatans that sell them.

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?

It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.

Christian.

I guess it wouldn't be practical to put the water softener in the loft
due to the frequent need to refill with salt?

The problem is putting it near the water path to the outlets that you
require to be softened. In most houses, the incoming water main passes
through the kitchen and outlets are taken off either directly or via a tank
in the loft.

If you have a loft tank, the water softener can be anywhere on this line,
including the loft. If the cold water outlets are taken off at mains
pressure before the loft, the softener must be installed before those take
offs (but after the kitchen drinking tap and the outside tap).

A modern metered softener doesn't actually use much salt. I wouldn't
hesitate to put one in an easily accessible loft, except that my house is
entirely mains pressure, so the softener must be placed in the kitchen. When
repiping the kitchen, I used a three pipe solution, with hard cold, soft
cold and soft hot pipework. Unfortunately, I can't actually afford a
suitable high flow softener ATM, so the soft pipework is hard.

Christian.

Strange that the many major cylinder and boiler manufacturers recommend
them. I think W-B recommend them too. Gledhill, a quality company, do.

No doubt they do, for commercial reasons. I have no trouble with the
charlatans selling snake oil. Good luck to them.

It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the
boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.

If you have a dish washer that is really not an issue.

Indeed, if you don't mind boiling an occasional kettle when handwashing
pans.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Strange that the many major cylinder and boiler manufacturers recommend
them. I think W-B recommend them too. Gledhill, a quality company, do.

No doubt they do, for commercial reasons. I have no trouble with the
charlatans selling snake oil. Good luck to them.

It seems they think different to you. Companies with reputations to protect
do not recommend crap.

It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the
boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a
stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good
for
washing dishes.

If you have a dish washer that is really not an issue.

Indeed, if you don't mind boiling an occasional kettle when handwashing
pans.

45-50C is enough to handwash a pan.

45-50C is enough to handwash a pan.

I always thought water became too hot for hands at around 40 degrees.
This site http://www.tap-water-burn.com/ seems to confirm that.

"Even though this is a 'relatively-safe' temperature, exposure to
water set at 110° F is painful; the human pain threshold is around
106-108° F"

110 = 43.3 C
108 = 42.2 C
106 = 41.1 C

Mr F.

"Mr Fizzion" wrote in message
...
45-50C is enough to handwash a pan.

I always thought water became too hot for hands at around 40 degrees.
This site http://www.tap-water-burn.com/ seems to confirm that.

True. Most people have 55-60C from the kitcehn tap and mix it down with
cold in the bowl or sink.

What keeps temps high is the Legioneella bacteria scare.

I currently use condensate from my dehumidifier to top up my CH (sealed
system). It was originally filled with tap water and fernox inhibitor.

Just use tap water. A lot simpler than pressurising the condensate. The
condensate may have all sorts of cr*p in it, too. Even hard water doesn't
matter, as you shouldn't be topping up frequently.

Christian.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:39:53 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:53:47 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Should I install a softener?

Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.

Can be as little as £300, which vs. £100 or so for phosphate doser is
not a huge jump.

£100? They around £45 in the sheds inc' canister.

OK, so it's £250 instead of £200 difference. Big deal.

The consumable (salt grains or tablets) for a softener are offset by
savings in detergents and shampoos.

Not much.

Entirely.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:45:35 +0100, Mr Fizzion
wrote:

Must a water softener go in the kitchen? I don't have a utility room,
and intend to put the new boiler in the loft.

You could put the softener there as well, but again it needs to be
kept from freezing. It also requires a drain, although that could go
via a trap into the soil stack or something like that.


I guess it wouldn't be practical to put the water softener in the loft
due to the frequent need to refill with salt?

You could. Mine gets through a 25kg bag about every month, so one
could carry 5kg a week up and add to it.




Mr F.


On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:58:25 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:53:47 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Should I install a softener?

Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.

Can be as little as £300, which vs. £100 or so for phosphate doser is
not a huge jump.

The consumable (salt grains or tablets) for a softener are offset by
savings in detergents and shampoos.



2. Phosphate dosing capsule, which will reduce scaling on heating
appliances, but have few additional benefits. They have moderate cost.

3. Electronic/magnetic conditioner, which help boost the bank accounts of
the charlatans that sell them.

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?

It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.

Christian.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Christian McArdle wrote:
When
repiping the kitchen, I used a three pipe solution, with hard cold, soft
cold and soft hot pipework. Unfortunately, I can't actually afford a
suitable high flow softener ATM, so the soft pipework is hard.

That's exactly what I have done as well, with the addition of a feed off
the cold hard to the main (most used) toilet cistern.

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
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http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

That's exactly what I have done as well, with the addition of a feed off
the cold hard to the main (most used) toilet cistern.

It's the toilet bowl I most want the softener for. It gets manked with
disgusting brown scale within a week of getting the brick acid treatment.

Christian.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

What keeps temps high is the Legioneella bacteria scare.

Would that not only be the case for stored hot water though?
I am presuming there is virtually no way of bactreria growing in a
closed, mains pressure (through combi) system?

I can confirm that after testing our boiler, water that I would have
guessed as being 70+ degrees by touch was in fact only 60 and way to
bloomin hot for the hands. Gonna crank it down to by at least 10 degrees
or more. Esp as we only ever seem to wash clothes on a 40 degree cycle
nowadays and have a 3 year old that likes "playing" with taps/water.


--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

Mr Fizzion wrote:
To quote the installation manual for the Greenstar 40 HE plus:

--------------------------------------------------------
"In exceptionally hard water areas a device to prevent
scale formation may be fitted or, alternatively, the maxi-
mum temperature reset to about 45°C which may
reduce the risk of scale formation. The installation of a
scale inhibitor assembly should be in accordance with
the requirements of the local water company. Artificially
softened water must not be used to fill the central heat-
ing system. An isolating valve should be fitted to allow
for servicing. "
-------------------------------------------------------

According to Wessex Water, my water hardness is 280 ppm, which is
classified as hard.

Should I install a softener?

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?

In a hard water area the cold inlet to the boiler's hot water heating
circuit should be softened, with an ion-exchange softener, as it will
scale up in no time if not.

I don't believe actually filling the sealed side of the boiler with soft
water makes any difference, I do. To have a separate un-softened feed to
top up the boiler with would be an extra pain to provide and would be
nigh on impossible on those boilers that have a built in filling loop.

Christian McArdle wrote:

It's the toilet bowl I most want the softener for. It gets manked with
disgusting brown scale within a week of getting the brick acid treatment.

Christian.

Blimey, you must have some crusty old water.
Wpold the brick acid not have made the enamell a bit susceptible to
attracting scale?


--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

Blimey, you must have some crusty old water.
Wpold the brick acid not have made the enamell a bit susceptible to
attracting scale?

It was plenty capable of that before the application of the acid. I do
wonder if there is some coating I could apply to make it better. Or perhaps
someone sells slow release phosphate capsules I could just drop in the
cistern.

Christian.

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:51:06 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Blimey, you must have some crusty old water.
Wpold the brick acid not have made the enamell a bit susceptible to
attracting scale?

It was plenty capable of that before the application of the acid. I do
wonder if there is some coating I could apply to make it better. Or perhaps
someone sells slow release phosphate capsules I could just drop in the
cistern.

Christian.



A few turns of wire around the flush pipe? ;-)



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Mr Fizzion wrote:

45-50C is enough to handwash a pan.


I always thought water became too hot for hands at around 40 degrees.
This site http://www.tap-water-burn.com/ seems to confirm that.

"Even though this is a 'relatively-safe' temperature, exposure to
water set at 110° F is painful; the human pain threshold is around
106-108° F"

110 = 43.3 C
108 = 42.2 C
106 = 41.1 C

Mr F.



No. 50C is getting hot and 60C is very painful.
40C is barely above blood heat.

Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk wrote:

Christian McArdle wrote:
When

repiping the kitchen, I used a three pipe solution, with hard cold, soft
cold and soft hot pipework. Unfortunately, I can't actually afford a
suitable high flow softener ATM, so the soft pipework is hard.


That's exactly what I have done as well, with the addition of a feed off
the cold hard to the main (most used) toilet cistern.


Mm. I have precisely one cold hard tap and one cold hard hose point for
the garden. Even te car washing hose point is softened :-)

The sealed part of the CH is also fed from cold hard when required..I
re-pressurise maybe once a year.


All others are softened, and believe me its a great improvement - noi
limescale on any toilets or water anywhere, and soap lasts forever now.