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  #1   Report Post  
Egremont
 
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Default Non-modulating condensing boilers?

Choosing a boiler again... but can anyone suggest any non-modulating
condensing boilers in the 24-28kW range?. The one suggestion I've seen so
far is Quantum Heatsave, I'd need too check physical size, cost etc so a
choice of more than 1 would be good.

This would be for a Thermal Store system, for which flame modulation is (in
theory) an unneccessary waste. On the other hand, I'm thinking I might be
better off just 'going with the flow' and getting a standard (modulating)
boiler regardless of the redundant fucntion.

Egremont.

PS - there is a background that's been gone into in another thread (which
I'm still looking into...)

..


  #2   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
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This would be for a Thermal Store system, for which flame modulation is
(in
theory) an unneccessary waste. On the other hand, I'm thinking I might be
better off just 'going with the flow' and getting a standard (modulating)
boiler regardless of the redundant fucntion.


There's no problem in using a modulating burner for this. Indeed, it can
actually be beneficial, as when the store gets nearly full, a non-modulating
one can start cycling on the boiler stat when the store stat is not yet
satisfied, particularly if the pump speed is fairly slow.

Christian.


  #3   Report Post  
fred
 
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In article , Egremont
writes
Choosing a boiler again... but can anyone suggest any non-modulating
condensing boilers in the 24-28kW range?. The one suggestion I've seen so
far is Quantum Heatsave, I'd need too check physical size, cost etc so a
choice of more than 1 would be good.

This would be for a Thermal Store system, for which flame modulation is (in
theory) an unneccessary waste. On the other hand, I'm thinking I might be
better off just 'going with the flow' and getting a standard (modulating)
boiler regardless of the redundant fucntion.

One of the benefits of a modulating one would be that it would modulate to
keep the boiler in condensing mode. That would be useful towards the end
of a cycle when the temperature of the store is reaching it's demand level
and the return temperature would rise, given continued max output. I see
this with my own (large) hot water cyl when it starts out on full whack, then
backs off a bit towards the end, usually a 20min cycle with the last 5mins
backed off to half power.

My Keston Celsius 25 has been reported here once as not liking driving
thermal stores, don't know why but I recall it from way back.

Sorry for not answering the question :-).
--
fred
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Doctor Drivel
 
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"Egremont" wrote in message
...
Choosing a boiler again... but can anyone suggest any non-modulating
condensing boilers in the 24-28kW range?. The one suggestion I've seen so
far is Quantum Heatsave, I'd need too check physical size, cost etc so a
choice of more than 1 would be good.

This would be for a Thermal Store system, for which flame modulation is

(in
theory) an unneccessary waste. On the other hand, I'm thinking I might be
better off just 'going with the flow' and getting a standard (modulating)
boiler regardless of the redundant fucntion.

Egremont.

PS - there is a background that's been gone into in another thread (which
I'm still looking into...)


The Baxi has a jumper on the pcb, which eliminates the modulating. Maxie may
know of some pcbs (boilers) with the same function.



  #5   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:01:45 GMT, "Egremont"
wrote:

Choosing a boiler again... but can anyone suggest any non-modulating
condensing boilers in the 24-28kW range?. The one suggestion I've seen so
far is Quantum Heatsave, I'd need too check physical size, cost etc so a
choice of more than 1 would be good.

This would be for a Thermal Store system, for which flame modulation is (in
theory) an unneccessary waste. On the other hand, I'm thinking I might be
better off just 'going with the flow' and getting a standard (modulating)
boiler regardless of the redundant fucntion.

Egremont.

PS - there is a background that's been gone into in another thread (which
I'm still looking into...)

You would be better off with a modulating one driving the radiators
directly and the cylinder of the thermal store directly, with the
thermal store used only for hot water.

In this way, when the heating requirement for the space heating is
fairly low, as it is for a large proportion of the year in the UK, the
boiler will run at lower temperatures and far more efficiently than it
will if you always drive a thermal store with it.

If you drive a thermal store with a modulating boiler, it will wind up
to full power for much of the recharging cycle anyway and you will
eliminate/reduce cycling.

Lack of cycling is one mechanism for efficiency. Running at lower
temperatures where efficiency is better anyway and heat recovery from
latent heat can happen is the other.

Condensing boilers of a few years ago had an efficiency advantage over
non condensing because normally they had larger and more efficient
heat exchangers. More recently, non-condensing caught up.

Operationally, you want the thermal store to recover quickly. You
won't be running the boiler at low temperatures during that time
anyway, so the only efficiency gain comes from not having cycling.
You don't need a non modulating boiler to achieve that.

For space heating, you are better off taking advantage of the fact
that by directly driving the radiators, the boiler can modulate down
and run cooler while still not cycling. If you put a thermal store
in the middle, then you prevent that from happening.

The only exception to this is if you were introducing a "free" source
of energy such as solar. In that case a thermal store is useful to
combine sources. Other than that, it is a good way to heat the water
but not a good way to maximise efficiency from a condensing boiler.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl


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Doctor Drivel
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:01:45 GMT, "Egremont"
wrote:

Choosing a boiler again... but can anyone suggest any non-modulating
condensing boilers in the 24-28kW range?. The one suggestion I've seen so
far is Quantum Heatsave, I'd need too check physical size, cost etc so a
choice of more than 1 would be good.

This would be for a Thermal Store system, for which flame modulation is

(in
theory) an unneccessary waste. On the other hand, I'm thinking I might be
better off just 'going with the flow' and getting a standard (modulating)
boiler regardless of the redundant fucntion.

Egremont.

PS - there is a background that's been gone into in another thread (which
I'm still looking into...)

You would be better off with a
modulating one driving the radiators
directly


He wouldn't at all.

and the cylinder of the thermal store directly, with the
thermal store used only for hot water.


He has the heating already off the store in two zones.

snip

  #7   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:18:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:01:45 GMT, "Egremont"
wrote:

Choosing a boiler again... but can anyone suggest any non-modulating
condensing boilers in the 24-28kW range?. The one suggestion I've seen so
far is Quantum Heatsave, I'd need too check physical size, cost etc so a
choice of more than 1 would be good.

This would be for a Thermal Store system, for which flame modulation is

(in
theory) an unneccessary waste. On the other hand, I'm thinking I might be
better off just 'going with the flow' and getting a standard (modulating)
boiler regardless of the redundant fucntion.

Egremont.

PS - there is a background that's been gone into in another thread (which
I'm still looking into...)

You would be better off with a
modulating one driving the radiators
directly


He wouldn't at all.

and the cylinder of the thermal store directly, with the
thermal store used only for hot water.


He has the heating already off the store in two zones.

snip



This does not make optimal use of a condensing boiler, let alone a
modulating one.

--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #8   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:18:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:01:45 GMT, "Egremont"
wrote:

Choosing a boiler again... but can anyone suggest any non-modulating
condensing boilers in the 24-28kW range?. The one suggestion I've seen

so
far is Quantum Heatsave, I'd need too check physical size, cost etc so

a
choice of more than 1 would be good.

This would be for a Thermal Store system, for which flame modulation

is
(in
theory) an unneccessary waste. On the other hand, I'm thinking I might

be
better off just 'going with the flow' and getting a standard

(modulating)
boiler regardless of the redundant fucntion.

Egremont.

PS - there is a background that's been gone into in another thread

(which
I'm still looking into...)

You would be better off with a
modulating one driving the radiators
directly


He wouldn't at all.

and the cylinder of the thermal store directly, with the
thermal store used only for hot water.


He has the heating already off the store in two zones.

snip


This does not make optimal use of a condensing boiler, let alone a
modulating one.


It does. Only a cheaper, simpler more reliable boiler need be used.



  #9   Report Post  
Egremont
 
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[Had to edit this post, line-breaks may be off...]

OK I've read many of your previous discussions in this area and didn't want
to take you back over old ground!.
I will mention a few things as relates to my installation:

1) The store has two 'stats to combat boiler cycling (you can blame Dr Evil)

2) My pump is indeed a bit slow (10L/min max), so much so that something
will probably have to be done.

3) The water sent to the current boiler (from the bottom of the 1300mm
store) seems to be surprisingly cool(ish) in relation to the overall
temperature of the store, the space-heating take off is high up which
probably helps. This should help condenser efficiency though may not be the
whole story!.

As for the boiler... pendulum swinging towards a 'normal' modulating boiler
I think. Apart from anything else, Quantum Heatsave seems to be the only
known specialist option. BTW can you really still get non-condensers?.

Egremont.




  #10   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
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"Egremont" wrote in message
...

[Had to edit this post, line-breaks may be off...]

OK I've read many of your previous discussions in this area and didn't

want
to take you back over old ground!.
I will mention a few things as relates to my installation:

1) The store has two 'stats to combat boiler cycling (you can blame Dr

Evil)

2) My pump is indeed a bit slow (10L/min max), so much so that something
will probably have to be done.

3) The water sent to the current boiler (from the bottom of the 1300mm
store) seems to be surprisingly cool(ish) in relation to the overall
temperature of the store, the space-heating take off is high up which
probably helps. This should help condenser efficiency though may not be

the
whole story!.

As for the boiler... pendulum swinging towards a 'normal' modulating

boiler
I think. Apart from anything else, Quantum Heatsave seems to be the only
known specialist option. BTW can you really still get non-condensers?.


Illegal. Only fitted in exceptional circumstances, which difficult to
achieve. Stick to a condensing boiler, as they are cheaper to run.

Look at the Baxi, this can be non-modulating. The two stats work with any
boiler and will enhance condensing as the when the stat call for hot water
the cylinder will be pretty cool promoting efficiency.






  #11   Report Post  
Egremont
 
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Keston 25 was once on my short-list, partly due to it's shallow depth (a
particular requirement) but negative comment from various sources on
reliability and support, though not universal, has put me off. At this
point, Worcester Greenstar R 24i (I think it was!) is one possible
alternative on the fully modulating front, but I think selecting a boiler
will be easy(er) if I can reasonably forget about non-modulation.

Egremont



  #12   Report Post  
fred
 
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In article , Egremont
writes
Keston 25 was once on my short-list, partly due to it's shallow depth (a
particular requirement) but negative comment from various sources on
reliability and support, though not universal, has put me off. At this
point, Worcester Greenstar R 24i (I think it was!) is one possible
alternative on the fully modulating front, but I think selecting a boiler
will be easy(er) if I can reasonably forget about non-modulation.


My choice was limited to only one or two boilers by a requirement for a
really long flue and the Keston won on cost of both boiler and the low cost
flue (plastic drain pipe) but if that's not important there are many others out
there. I've not had any trouble with mine and I was able to talk to directly to
one of their technical bods when I needed a hand at commissioning time
but as I'm sure you've seen, that's not everyone's experience.

Build quality looks good on a chum's recently fitted non-condensing
Worcester Bosch but that's as much as I know of them.

Good luck.
--
fred
  #13   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:39:51 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message



This does not make optimal use of a condensing boiler, let alone a
modulating one.


It does. Only a cheaper, simpler more reliable boiler need be used.

Sorry but no, as has been demonstrated before.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #14   Report Post  
Ed Sirett
 
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:30:53 +0000, Egremont wrote:


[Had to edit this post, line-breaks may be off...]



As for the boiler... pendulum swinging towards a 'normal' modulating boiler
I think. Apart from anything else, Quantum Heatsave seems to be the only
known specialist option. BTW can you really still get non-condensers?.


Yes, they are on offer at more than one place around here, one advertises
on the side of the building (in bright pink, as they do) COMBI 310+VAT.!!!

Can they be fitted? Yes it's physically possible.

Is it legal to fit them? no (but for very exceptional exceptions).

Will anything come of fitting one? Almost certainly not unless some other
work was involved in the same place that brought in some authority.

Should you fit one?
Depends on how serious you are about energy efficiency, 'saving the planet',
fixing to sell or fixing to dwell? etc.etc.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html


  #15   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:30:53 GMT, "Egremont"
wrote:


[Had to edit this post, line-breaks may be off...]

OK I've read many of your previous discussions in this area and didn't want
to take you back over old ground!.
I will mention a few things as relates to my installation:

1) The store has two 'stats to combat boiler cycling (you can blame Dr Evil)

2) My pump is indeed a bit slow (10L/min max), so much so that something
will probably have to be done.

3) The water sent to the current boiler (from the bottom of the 1300mm
store) seems to be surprisingly cool(ish) in relation to the overall
temperature of the store, the space-heating take off is high up which
probably helps. This should help condenser efficiency though may not be the
whole story!.

As for the boiler... pendulum swinging towards a 'normal' modulating boiler
I think. Apart from anything else, Quantum Heatsave seems to be the only
known specialist option. BTW can you really still get non-condensers?.


If you are going to hook the boiler up to a thermal store for space
heating, it won't make a lot of difference because it will seldom run
cool enough to take advantage of low temperature condensing operation.
You will get bursts of high power operation as the store is
periodically replenished and the return temperature will initially be
cool. However, as the store warms, so will the return temperature,
and to a point where the boiler is operating in the range of a
conventional boiler.

If the condensing boiler drives the radiators directly, the flow
temperature can be allowed to fall substantially and the return even
more so that the burner will tend to run continuously at low output
rather than cycling at a higher temperature range to drive a store.

Use of a store makes good sense for DHW purposes if sufficient mains
flow is available. For space heating, unless other energy sources are
being added in, it defeats the designed in optimisation of the boiler
which will then run less efficiently.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl


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Doctor Drivel
 
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"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:30:53 +0000, Egremont wrote:


[Had to edit this post, line-breaks may be off...]



As for the boiler... pendulum swinging towards a 'normal' modulating

boiler
I think. Apart from anything else, Quantum Heatsave seems to be the only
known specialist option. BTW can you really still get non-condensers?.


Yes, they are on offer at more than one place around here, one advertises
on the side of the building (in bright pink, as they do) COMBI 310+VAT.!!!

Can they be fitted? Yes it's physically possible.

Is it legal to fit them? no (but for very exceptional exceptions).

Will anything come of fitting one? Almost certainly not unless some other
work was involved in the same place that brought in some authority.

Should you fit one?
Depends on how serious you are about energy efficiency, 'saving the

planet',
fixing to sell or fixing to dwell? etc.etc.


Or saving money on gas bills too.

  #17   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
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Default


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:30:53 GMT, "Egremont"
wrote:


[Had to edit this post, line-breaks may be off...]

OK I've read many of your previous discussions in this area and didn't

want
to take you back over old ground!.
I will mention a few things as relates to my installation:

1) The store has two 'stats to combat boiler cycling (you can blame Dr

Evil)

2) My pump is indeed a bit slow (10L/min max), so much so that something
will probably have to be done.

3) The water sent to the current boiler (from the bottom of the 1300mm
store) seems to be surprisingly cool(ish) in relation to the overall
temperature of the store, the space-heating take off is high up which
probably helps. This should help condenser efficiency though may not be

the
whole story!.

As for the boiler... pendulum swinging towards a 'normal' modulating

boiler
I think. Apart from anything else, Quantum Heatsave seems to be the only
known specialist option. BTW can you really still get non-condensers?.


If you are going to hook the boiler
up to a thermal store for space
heating, it won't make a lot of difference


It will make quite a difference.

because it will seldom run cool enough
to take advantage of low temperature
condensing operation.


He has two stats so the store will enough for the cool mass to be heated all
at once with ample coll return water.

You will get bursts of high power
operation as the store is
periodically replenished and the
return temperature will initially be
cool.


For quite a while.

However, as the store warms, so
will the return temperature,
and to a point where the boiler is
operating in the range of a
conventional boiler.


Only at the end. The operation temp of the store can be lowered to promote
cooler operation.

If the condensing boiler drives
the radiators directly,


This produces boiler cyling, once the boioer kW has bottomed out. Alos
means zone valve for zone, 3-ways, and other complexity.

the flow temperature can be allowed to
fall substantially and the return even
more so that the burner will tend to run
continuously at low output rather than
cycling at a higher temperature range to drive a store.


Will not cycle heating the store as two stats are used. Will cylce directly
on the rad circuits. Problems always when fitting therostat rad valves.

Use of a store makes good sense
for DHW purposes if sufficient mains
flow is available. For space heating,
unless other energy sources are
being added in, it defeats the designed
in optimisation of the boiler
which will then run less efficiently.


Nonsense.

  #18   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:39:51 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message



This does not make optimal use of a condensing boiler, let alone a
modulating one.


It does. Only a cheaper, simpler more reliable boiler need be used.

Sorry but no, as has been demonstrated before.


It hasn't. You made things up, that was all.

  #19   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:17:04 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



For quite a while.

However, as the store warms, so
will the return temperature,
and to a point where the boiler is
operating in the range of a
conventional boiler.


Only at the end. The operation temp of the store can be lowered to promote
cooler operation.


That's useless. Then one can't achieve decent storage for the energy
needed for hot water



If the condensing boiler drives
the radiators directly,


This produces boiler cyling, once the boioer kW has bottomed out.


There are boilers around with 5kW minimum.


Alos
means zone valve for zone, 3-ways, and other complexity.


A store needs a number of controls around it as you very well know.




the flow temperature can be allowed to
fall substantially and the return even
more so that the burner will tend to run
continuously at low output rather than
cycling at a higher temperature range to drive a store.


Will not cycle heating the store as two stats are used. Will cylce directly
on the rad circuits.


Not if the minimum modulation level is reasonably low at 5kW or so.

Problems always when fitting therostat rad valves.


No there aren't.



Use of a store makes good sense
for DHW purposes if sufficient mains
flow is available. For space heating,
unless other energy sources are
being added in, it defeats the designed
in optimisation of the boiler
which will then run less efficiently.


Nonsense.


Your department, I think.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
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Doctor Drivel
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:17:04 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



For quite a while.

However, as the store warms, so
will the return temperature,
and to a point where the boiler is
operating in the range of a
conventional boiler.


Only at the end. The operation temp of the store can be lowered to

promote
cooler operation.


That's useless. Then one can't achieve decent storage for the energy
needed for hot water


You size the cylinder to suit.

If the condensing boiler drives
the radiators directly,


This produces boiler cyling, once the boioer kW has bottomed out.


There are boilers around with 5kW minimum.


Very few, and they still cycle, and still need zone vale and problems with
TRVs.

Also means zone valve for zone, 3-ways, and other complexity.


A store needs a number of controls around it as you very well know.


Simple stats and pumps, unless yiou have a state of the art one like me.

the flow temperature can be allowed to
fall substantially and the return even
more so that the burner will tend to run
continuously at low output rather than
cycling at a higher temperature range to drive a store.


Will not cycle heating the store as two stats are used.
Will cycle when directly
on the rad circuits.


Not if the minimum modulation level is reasonably low at 5kW or so.


Very rare, and only v expensive boilers and they still cycle.

Problems always when fitting thermostat rad valves.


No there aren't.


There are.

Use of a store makes good sense
for DHW purposes if sufficient mains
flow is available. For space heating,
unless other energy sources are
being added in, it defeats the designed
in optimisation of the boiler
which will then run less efficiently.


Nonsense.


Your department, I think.


You just don't know.



  #21   Report Post  
Egremont
 
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At one point I was looking at putting the boiler in an odd spot and the
waste-pipe flue would have made it just about the only choice, but this
never came to pass

Egremont.


  #22   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:19:36 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:17:04 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



For quite a while.

However, as the store warms, so
will the return temperature,
and to a point where the boiler is
operating in the range of a
conventional boiler.

Only at the end. The operation temp of the store can be lowered to

promote
cooler operation.


That's useless. Then one can't achieve decent storage for the energy
needed for hot water


You size the cylinder to suit.


Fine. However, you are always the person who promotes stores being
able to be smaller because the water temperature is higher. You can't
have it both ways as has been demonstrated many times.

Next time the Albion rep. comes in, ask him to explain it to you.




If the condensing boiler drives
the radiators directly,

This produces boiler cyling, once the boioer kW has bottomed out.


There are boilers around with 5kW minimum.


Very few, and they still cycle, and still need zone vale and problems with
TRVs.



Rubbish. There are no problems with TRVs at this level.





Not if the minimum modulation level is reasonably low at 5kW or so.


Very rare, and only v expensive boilers and they still cycle.


Your understanding of heat storage and distribution is quite limited,
isn't it....

If you drive radiators directly from a modulating boiler, when the
heat requirement for the space is above the minimum boiler output, the
boiler runs continuously. At the lower end, it also runs highly
efficiently.

When the heat requirement is at or below the minimum output level, the
room thermostat will also play a part and will lock out the boiler
until heat is next required. Any switching of the boiler will be on
a very long interval, just as it is with a store. However, since this
is occuring at a much lower power level than happens when driving a
store, there is less energy waste at the time the boiler fires up. It
will also be working directly in its most efficient temperature range.

Ask one of the boiler reps to explain this to you. Actually don't -
call their technical department.




Problems always when fitting thermostat rad valves.


No there aren't.


There are.


Perhaps you should use decent ones.

Some TRV4s please.




Use of a store makes good sense
for DHW purposes if sufficient mains
flow is available. For space heating,
unless other energy sources are
being added in, it defeats the designed
in optimisation of the boiler
which will then run less efficiently.

Nonsense.


Your department, I think.


You just don't know.


Plumbers merchants seem to be full of people behind the counter who
spout about this or that in an "authoritative" way. Either they
heard it from several heating guys who came in or were told by the
manufacturer's rep as he was telling them about the latest promo trip
to Eyebyeza. When are you going?




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #23   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:19:36 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:17:04 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



For quite a while.

However, as the store warms, so
will the return temperature,
and to a point where the boiler is
operating in the range of a
conventional boiler.

Only at the end. The operation temp of the store can be lowered to

promote
cooler operation.

That's useless. Then one can't achieve decent storage for the energy
needed for hot water


You size the cylinder to suit.


Fine. However, you are always the
person who promotes stores being
able to be smaller because the water
temperature is higher.


A store can be many things. You can combine the outout of boiler and the
thermal store, moreso a heat bank than store, to improve DHW performace
using a smaller storage vessel. You can promote greater condensing
efficiency by lowering the store temperature and having alarger store, or a
store matched to suit, etc.

You can't have it both ways


You can.

If the condensing boiler drives
the radiators directly,

This produces boiler cyling,
once the boiler kW has bottomed out.

There are boilers around with 5kW minimum.


Very few, and they still cycle, and
still need zone vale and problems with
TRVs.


Rubbish. There are no problems with TRVs at this level.


You require by-passes and a control interlock, which can be a bit involved,
if you want TRVs on all rads. Taking the rad circuits from the store you
can have TRVs on all rads, by only having a Grundfos Alpha on the circuit.
You can have two CH zones directly off the store both with just an Alpha
pump and TRVs on all rads.

Not if the minimum modulation level is reasonably low at 5kW or so.


Very rare, and only v expensive boilers and they still cycle.


Your understanding of heat storage
and distribution is quite limited,
isn't it....


It is 110%. Just read and take note. You don't have to understand. Just
accept it.

If you drive radiators directly from a modulating boiler,


When having two zones and TRVs on all rads complexities arise. 3kW is the
least you will get from a boiler and those boilers are "very" expensive.

When the heat requirement is at
or below the minimum output level, the
room thermostat will also play a part
and will lock out the boiler
until heat is next required.


Using two CH zones off a thermal store using TRVs all around doesn't even
require a room stat. Simple, by just instaling an Alpha pump.

Any switching of the boiler will be on
a very long interval, just as it is with
a store. However, since this
is occuring at a much lower power
level than happens when driving a
store, there is less energy waste at
the time the boiler fires up. It
will also be working directly in its
most efficient temperature range.


By inserting an outside weather compensator that dictates the temperature of
the stored CH water in the thermla store, a condensing boiler operates to
max efficiency. Simple to do.

Plumbers merchants seem to
be full of people behind the counter who
spout about this or that in an "authoritative"
way.


Most have never heard of a thermal store, never mind how you apply it.

You just don't know.


  #24   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:04:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



A store can be many things. You can combine the outout of boiler and the
thermal store, moreso a heat bank than store, to improve DHW performace
using a smaller storage vessel.


We've been around that one before. There is a short term effect with
this which is dependent on the storage volume, the boiler capacity and
the rate of use of heat. It does not improve performance in the
sense of flow rate, and if used to make a worthwhile reduction in
cylinder size, the stored energy may well run out reducing the
performance and water temperature substantially - in effect creating a
combi. Not a very interesting solution.


You can promote greater condensing
efficiency by lowering the store temperature and having alarger store, or a
store matched to suit, etc.


Condensing efficiency is improved by operating the boiler at a lower
temperature not by increasing the size of the store. The effect of
the latter is only to reduce cycling and is only important when, as is
required with a store, the boiler runs at high temperature. That
argument is more applicable to non-condensing boilers which are
designed to run at high temperatures.



You can't have it both ways


You can.


It's behind you.


If the condensing boiler drives
the radiators directly,

This produces boiler cyling,
once the boiler kW has bottomed out.

There are boilers around with 5kW minimum.

Very few, and they still cycle, and
still need zone vale and problems with
TRVs.


Rubbish. There are no problems with TRVs at this level.


You require by-passes and a control interlock, which can be a bit involved,
if you want TRVs on all rads.


The need for bypasses or not depends purely on the boiler and even if
an external one is required, it is trivial. Likewise, control
interlock in the form of a room thermostat is also trivial for those
of average intelligence or above.


Taking the rad circuits from the store you
can have TRVs on all rads, by only having a Grundfos Alpha on the circuit.
You can have two CH zones directly off the store both with just an Alpha
pump and TRVs on all rads.


This is pointless. A modulating condensing boiler can do this
directly. Several have pump speed control as well so that the boiler
burn rate, water flow rate and temperatures can all be optimised for
maximum condensing efficiency and lack of cycling. Adding a store in
the middle defeats that and is pointless for space heating
applications.



Not if the minimum modulation level is reasonably low at 5kW or so.

Very rare, and only v expensive boilers and they still cycle.


Your understanding of heat storage
and distribution is quite limited,
isn't it....


It is 110%. Just read and take note. You don't have to understand. Just
accept it.



Is that what the rep told you? He's a nice guy, isn't he? Don't
forget to up that order for the Yorkshire fittings that he needs this
month, will you....



If you drive radiators directly from a modulating boiler,


When having two zones and TRVs on all rads complexities arise. 3kW is the
least you will get from a boiler and those boilers are "very" expensive.


There are several that will modulate down to low levels and will drive
the radiators directly perfectly well. If your idea were so
beneficial, it would be common practice and boilers would be designed
to do it. As it is, they are optimised to heat cylinders (or stores)
quickly for hot water purposes and to drive radiators directly. That
is the main point of arranging for them to modulate. The vast
majority do modulate, and very few are around that have fixed output,
simply because a store is not the best way to implement a space
heating solution unless other energy sources are being added in.



Any switching of the boiler will be on
a very long interval, just as it is with
a store. However, since this
is occuring at a much lower power
level than happens when driving a
store, there is less energy waste at
the time the boiler fires up. It
will also be working directly in its
most efficient temperature range.


By inserting an outside weather compensator that dictates the temperature of
the stored CH water in the thermla store, a condensing boiler operates to
max efficiency. Simple to do.


If you do that and reduce the temperature in the store, it is no
longer optimal for heating the water. Considering that with a
modulating boiler, the temperatures can be run as low as 45/25 degrees
to the radiators, the store is going to be pretty useless for heating
the water.




Plumbers merchants seem to
be full of people behind the counter who
spout about this or that in an "authoritative"
way.


Most have never heard of a thermal store, never mind how you apply it.

Presumably they have in your branch now though?




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #25   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:04:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

A store can be many things. You can combine the outout of boiler and the
thermal store, moreso a heat bank than store, to improve DHW performace
using a smaller storage vessel.


We've been around that one before.
There is a short term effect with
this which is dependent on the
storage volume, the boiler capacity and
the rate of use of heat.


Short term effect? What a BS term! This one is full of it.

It does not improve performance in the
sense of flow rate,


What is he on about.

and if used to make a worthwhile reduction in
cylinder size, the stored energy may well
run out reducing the performance and
water temperature substantially - in effect creating a
combi. Not a very interesting solution.


This one hasn't a clue. You size the boiler output and then size the
cylinder to support, to attain the level of DHW flow and volume required.

You can promote greater condensing
efficiency by lowering the store temperature
and having alarger store, or a
store matched to suit, etc.


Condensing efficiency is improved
by operating the boiler at a lower
temperature not by increasing the
size of the store.


If the store is at a lower temp the stored energy is less. You size to
suit.

The effect of the latter is only to reduce
cycling and is only important when, as is
required with a store, the boiler runs
at high temperature.


Nonsense.

That argument is more applicable
to non-condensing boilers which are
designed to run at high temperatures.


Nonsense.

You can't have it both ways


You can.


It's behind you.


If the condensing boiler drives
the radiators directly,

This produces boiler cyling,
once the boiler kW has bottomed out.

There are boilers around with 5kW minimum.

Very few, and they still cycle, and
still need zone vale and problems with
TRVs.

Rubbish. There are no problems with TRVs at this level.


You require by-passes and a
control interlock, which can be a bit involved,
if you want TRVs on all rads.


The need for bypasses or not depends
purely on the boiler and even if
an external one is required, it is trivial.


Another thing to go wrong and wreck your boiler.

Likewise, control interlock in the form
of a room thermostat is also trivial for those
of average intelligence or above.


A room stat cuts off the whole system or zone. Having TRVs on all rads and
and Alpha pump, all off a store has no drawbacks.

If you want TRVs on all rads with a boiler directly heating that rads, the
control interlock becomes more complex and not standard. A major drawback.

Taking the rad circuits from the store you
can have TRVs on all rads, by only having
a Grundfos Alpha on the circuit.
You can have two CH zones directly off
the store both with just an Alpha
pump and TRVs on all rads.


This is pointless.


There is no central wall room stat to lmock ooff the zone. What is warm in
one room maybe cold in another.

A modulating condensing boiler can do this
directly.


Without a room stat? It can but complexity arises, and the control
interlock and by-pass. The thermals store/Alpha pump is by far the best
solution.

Several have pump speed control
as well so that the boiler
burn rate, water flow rate and
temperatures can all be optimised for
maximum condensing efficiency and
lack of cycling.


All added complexity which can be avoided by using a thermal store.

Adding a store in the middle defeats
that and is pointless for space heating
applications.


Utter nonsense.

If you drive radiators directly from a modulating boiler,


When having two zones and TRVs on
all rads complexities arise. 3kW is the
least you will get from a boiler and those
boilers are "very" expensive.


There are several that will modulate
down to low levels and will drive
the radiators directly perfectly well.


A few and are "very" expensive and highly complex. With a thermal store a
cheap simple boiler can be used to better effect.

If your idea were so
beneficial, it would be common practice
and boilers would be designed to do it.


Sinmple boilesr are there and can do it. Main pressure water is far
superior to tanks in lofts in performance. Yet if it was so good we would
all be using it. Obvious. Yet even today new homes in estates are being
built with low pressure tanks in the lofts. Why? Beats me. Most plumbers
don't even know how thermal stores work.

But, Gledhill Thermal Stores are making headway in the new build sector.

As it is, they are optimised to
heat cylinders (or stores)
quickly for hot water purposes
and to drive radiators directly.


They are designed for the replacement market, which is now the largest
sector.

That is the main point of arranging
for them to modulate.


No. It is to mate onto an existing system.

The vast majority do modulate, and
very few are around that have fixed output,
simply because a store is not the best
way to implement a space heating solution
unless other energy sources are being added in.


As indicated to you the store is the best way. Simpler, more effective, and
all rooms can have "fully" independent temp control. On warm up the rads
are hot instantly.

Any switching of the boiler will be on
a very long interval, just as it is with
a store. However, since this
is occuring at a much lower power
level than happens when driving a
store, there is less energy waste at
the time the boiler fires up. It
will also be working directly in its
most efficient temperature range.


By inserting an outside weather
compensator that dictates the temperature of
the stored CH water in the thermla store,
a condensing boiler operates to
max efficiency. Simple to do.


If you do that and reduce the temperature
in the store, it is no longer optimal for
heating the water.


I think you mean DHW. You only have the lower CH section controlled by the
compensator. The upper DHW section can be 70, 75, 80C. The upper and lower
sectionnwill be at too very different temperatures, with the lower
controlled by the outside waether compensator. This lower CH section could
be as low as 35C and the boiler operates in a low temperature high efficient
environment. A cheap simple boiler too, no compe expensive mother...

Considering that with a
modulating boiler, the temperatures
can be run as low as 45/25 degrees
to the radiators, the store is going to
be pretty useless for heating
the water.


See just above, DHW.

Plumbers merchants seem to
be full of people behind the counter who
spout about this or that in an "authoritative"
way.


Most have never heard of a thermal store,
never mind how you apply it.


Presumably they have in your branch now though?


...Lord Hall wears a top hat, this is so
...Lord Hall thinks the top hat is all the go
...Lord Hall wears the top hat all the week
...and the dead mouse upon his lip don't half reak
...he doesn't know it's there as dead mice don't squeak




  #26   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:26:13 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:04:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

A store can be many things. You can combine the outout of boiler and the
thermal store, moreso a heat bank than store, to improve DHW performace
using a smaller storage vessel.


We've been around that one before.
There is a short term effect with
this which is dependent on the
storage volume, the boiler capacity and
the rate of use of heat.


Short term effect? What a BS term! This one is full of it.


There may well be a British Standard covering this area.



It does not improve performance in the
sense of flow rate,


What is he on about.

and if used to make a worthwhile reduction in
cylinder size, the stored energy may well
run out reducing the performance and
water temperature substantially - in effect creating a
combi. Not a very interesting solution.


This one hasn't a clue. You size the boiler output and then size the
cylinder to support, to attain the level of DHW flow and volume required.


You are obfuscating again.



You can promote greater condensing
efficiency by lowering the store temperature
and having alarger store, or a
store matched to suit, etc.


Condensing efficiency is improved
by operating the boiler at a lower
temperature not by increasing the
size of the store.


If the store is at a lower temp the stored energy is less. You size to
suit.


Obviously, but there is a lower reasonable limit. One needs to have
the store temperature at 60 degrees to produce hot water at a
reasonable temperature.




The effect of the latter is only to reduce
cycling and is only important when, as is
required with a store, the boiler runs
at high temperature.


Nonsense.


No it isn't. Cycling at high temperature implies far more loss of
energy than it does at lower temperatures.




That argument is more applicable
to non-condensing boilers which are
designed to run at high temperatures.


Nonsense.


Nope.


The need for bypasses or not depends
purely on the boiler and even if
an external one is required, it is trivial.


Another thing to go wrong and wreck your boiler.


Tripe.


Likewise, control interlock in the form
of a room thermostat is also trivial for those
of average intelligence or above.


A room stat cuts off the whole system or zone. Having TRVs on all rads and
and Alpha pump, all off a store has no drawbacks.


The drawback is putting the store in the middle of the control system
forcing the boiler to operate outside its optimal range for space
heating as well as for DHW.



If you want TRVs on all rads with a boiler directly heating that rads, the
control interlock becomes more complex and not standard. A major drawback.


Rubbish. This is entirely the standard implementation used in
millions of homes. TRVs on all radiators except one located in the
room with room thermostat.

Surely you are not trying to claim that room thermostats are complex
are you? Ask the Danfoss rep. to explain how they work next time
he's in.



Taking the rad circuits from the store you
can have TRVs on all rads, by only having
a Grundfos Alpha on the circuit.
You can have two CH zones directly off
the store both with just an Alpha
pump and TRVs on all rads.


This is pointless.


There is no central wall room stat to lmock ooff the zone. What is warm in
one room maybe cold in another.

A modulating condensing boiler can do this
directly.


Without a room stat? It can but complexity arises, and the control
interlock and by-pass. The thermals store/Alpha pump is by far the best
solution.


You are spouting nonsense as has already been explained.



Several have pump speed control
as well so that the boiler
burn rate, water flow rate and
temperatures can all be optimised for
maximum condensing efficiency and
lack of cycling.


All added complexity which can be avoided by using a thermal store.


It is no more added complexity to have a pump which is controlled by
the boiler electronics vs. an external Alpha. The Alpha is useful
for cases where the boiler is incapable of stepped or proportional
control of the pump. In cases where the boiler electronics can
control the pump - e.g. the Celsius and Micromat among others then it
makes sense to use it.

In effect what you are suggesting is an arrangement where you disable
the designed control system of the boiler by putting a store between
it and the load that it can so easily control, to run the boiler
outside of its optimal range of temperature and then to attempt to
redress the issue by fitting an Alpha, which good though it is, only
operates based on detecting flow/pressure and not under control of the
boiler, which also knows aout temperature and optimisation of that.

It's a dumb idea.




Adding a store in the middle defeats
that and is pointless for space heating
applications.


Utter nonsense.


Yes it is utter nonsense unless you are trying to introduce energy
from another source.



If you drive radiators directly from a modulating boiler,

When having two zones and TRVs on
all rads complexities arise. 3kW is the
least you will get from a boiler and those
boilers are "very" expensive.


There are several that will modulate
down to low levels and will drive
the radiators directly perfectly well.


A few and are "very" expensive and highly complex.


There is a burner, a heat exchanger, a board of electronics, a fan, a
gas valve and perhaps a pump. This is not "highly complex" any more
than any decent quality modulating boiler.


With a thermal store a
cheap simple boiler can be used to better effect.


As long as the boiler is a non-condensing one, possibly.



If your idea were so
beneficial, it would be common practice
and boilers would be designed to do it.


Sinmple boilesr are there and can do it. Main pressure water is far
superior to tanks in lofts in performance.


Provided that the water supply is adequate.


Yet if it was so good we would
all be using it. Obvious. Yet even today new homes in estates are being
built with low pressure tanks in the lofts. Why? Beats me. Most plumbers
don't even know how thermal stores work.


You must be a plumber on the side then, as well as working in a
merchant.


But, Gledhill Thermal Stores are making headway in the new build sector.

As it is, they are optimised to
heat cylinders (or stores)
quickly for hot water purposes
and to drive radiators directly.


They are designed for the replacement market, which is now the largest
sector.

That is the main point of arranging
for them to modulate.


No. It is to mate onto an existing system.


Radiators are radiators. If the radiator system is designed to have
been run from a conventional 82/70 boiler, then at certain times of
the year, high temperatures will be needed. If it sized to give
more output and work with 70/50 from a condensing boiler then fine as
well and it will be more efficient. Either way a modulating boiler
is beneficial if it is condensing.


The vast majority do modulate, and
very few are around that have fixed output,
simply because a store is not the best
way to implement a space heating solution
unless other energy sources are being added in.


As indicated to you the store is the best way. Simpler, more effective, and
all rooms can have "fully" independent temp control.


It isn't simpler because you are adding a store, pump and controls.

On warm up the rads
are hot instantly.


The key thing is the radiator output in proportion to that required to
address the heat loss of the room. Since many boilers have high peak
outputs anyway, what you describe is at best a second order effect.

Any switching of the boiler will be on
a very long interval, just as it is with
a store. However, since this
is occuring at a much lower power
level than happens when driving a
store, there is less energy waste at
the time the boiler fires up. It
will also be working directly in its
most efficient temperature range.

By inserting an outside weather
compensator that dictates the temperature of
the stored CH water in the thermla store,
a condensing boiler operates to
max efficiency. Simple to do.


If you do that and reduce the temperature
in the store, it is no longer optimal for
heating the water.


I think you mean DHW. You only have the lower CH section controlled by the
compensator. The upper DHW section can be 70, 75, 80C. The upper and lower
sectionnwill be at too very different temperatures, with the lower
controlled by the outside waether compensator. This lower CH section could
be as low as 35C and the boiler operates in a low temperature high efficient
environment.


This is waffle.

Unless you split the store into discrete and separate sections or have
two stores, you can't achieve any accuracy of control, especially as
you only have one source of heat into the store.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #27   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:26:13 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:04:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

A store can be many things. You can combine the outout of boiler and

the
thermal store, moreso a heat bank than store, to improve DHW

performace
using a smaller storage vessel.

We've been around that one before.
There is a short term effect with
this which is dependent on the
storage volume, the boiler capacity and
the rate of use of heat.


Short term effect? What a BS term! This one is full of it.


There may well be a British Standard covering this area.


A BS covering BS? Mmmmm

It does not improve performance in the
sense of flow rate,


What is he on about.

and if used to make a worthwhile reduction in
cylinder size, the stored energy may well
run out reducing the performance and
water temperature substantially - in effect creating a
combi. Not a very interesting solution.


This one hasn't a clue. You size the boiler output and then size the
cylinder to support, to attain the level of DHW flow and volume required.


You are obfuscating again.


Quite clear.

You can promote greater condensing
efficiency by lowering the store temperature
and having alarger store, or a
store matched to suit, etc.

Condensing efficiency is improved
by operating the boiler at a lower
temperature not by increasing the
size of the store.


If the store is at a lower temp the
stored energy is less. You size to
suit.


Obviously, but there is a lower reasonable limit. One needs to have
the store temperature at 60 degrees to produce hot water at a
reasonable temperature.


The effect of the latter is only to reduce
cycling and is only important when, as is
required with a store, the boiler runs
at high temperature.


Nonsense.


No it isn't. Cycling at high temperature implies far more loss of
energy than it does at lower temperatures.


Nonsense.

That argument is more applicable
to non-condensing boilers which are
designed to run at high temperatures.


Nonsense.


Nope.


The need for bypasses or not depends
purely on the boiler and even if
an external one is required, it is trivial.


Another thing to go wrong and wreck your boiler.


Tripe.


Likewise, control interlock in the form
of a room thermostat is also trivial for those
of average intelligence or above.


A room stat cuts off the whole system or zone.
Having TRVs on all rads and
and Alpha pump, all off a store has no drawbacks.


The drawback is putting the store in
the middle of the control system
forcing the boiler to operate outside
its optimal range for space
heating as well as for DHW.


Nonsense. The store is a great neutral point asset. The boiler work can
work at very low temperatures when a weather compensator is attached to the
CH section. This also reduces boiler cycling too. A great assset.

If you want TRVs on all rads with a boiler
directly heating that rads, the
control interlock becomes more complex
and not standard. A major drawback.


Rubbish. This is entirely the standard
implementation used in millions of homes.
TRVs on all radiators except one located in the
room with room thermostat.


You can't read. I said "TRVs on all rads", not one left open that switches
the system off when some rooms are calling for heat. Silly idea.

Surely you are not trying to claim
that room thermostats are complex
are you? Ask the Danfoss rep.
to explain how they work next time
he's in.


With a boiler directly heating rads if all rads have TRVs, complexity arises
to ensure the boiler has flow though it at all times. A thermal store using
Alpha pumps eliminates this complexity.

Taking the rad circuits from the store you
can have TRVs on all rads, by only having
a Grundfos Alpha on the circuit.
You can have two CH zones directly off
the store both with just an Alpha
pump and TRVs on all rads.

This is pointless.


There is no central wall room stat to lmock ooff the zone. What is warm

in
one room maybe cold in another.

A modulating condensing boiler can do this
directly.


Without a room stat? It can but complexity arises, and the control
interlock and by-pass. The thermals store/Alpha pump is by far the best
solution.


You are spouting nonsense as has already been explained.


You lack comprehension. There is complexity using a thermals store, an
Alpha pumps and TRVs on all rads. No room stat required, no by-pass no flow
switches, none of any of that. Alpha are also quiet in operation as they
vary the speed.

Several have pump speed control
as well so that the boiler
burn rate, water flow rate and
temperatures can all be optimised for
maximum condensing efficiency and
lack of cycling.


All added complexity which can be avoided by using a thermal store.


It is no more added complexity
to have a pump which is controlled by
the boiler electronics vs. an external Alpha.


Much more needless complexity.

In effect what you are suggesting
is an arrangement where you disable
the designed control system of the
boiler by putting a store between
it and the load that it can so easily
control,


You have a boiler without a complicated control system. Simpler, cheaper,
longer lasting and more reliable.

to run the boiler outside of its
optimal range of temperature


The boiler runs at the temperatures dicted by the buiklding load dictated by
a weather compensator. The compensator heats the stored water in te CH
section of the store.

and then to attempt to
redress the issue by fitting an Alpha,
which good though it is, only
operates based on detecting
flow/pressure and not under control of the
boiler, which also knows aout temperature
and optimisation of that.


The Alpha does not have to be under the control of the boiler. It is better
separated from the boiler totally and run from a thermal store.

Optimisation of temperature is best done via a weather compensator, not the
boiler.

It's a dumb idea.


You haven't a clue.

Adding a store in the middle defeats
that and is pointless for space heating
applications.


Utter nonsense.


Yes it is utter nonsense unless you are trying to introduce energy
from another source.

If you drive radiators directly from a modulating boiler,

When having two zones and TRVs on
all rads complexities arise. 3kW is the
least you will get from a boiler and those
boilers are "very" expensive.

There are several that will modulate
down to low levels and will drive
the radiators directly perfectly well.


A few and are "very" expensive and highly complex.


There is a burner, a heat exchanger, a board of electronics, a fan, a
gas valve and perhaps a pump. This is not "highly complex" any more
than any decent quality modulating boiler.

With a thermal store a cheap
simple boiler can be used to better effect.


As long as the boiler is a non-condensing
one, possibly.


Nope. A condesning boiler is fully optimised.

If your idea were so
beneficial, it would be common practice
and boilers would be designed to do it.


Simple boilers are there and can do it. Mains pressure water is far
superior to tanks in lofts in performance.


Provided that the water supply is adequate.


Yet if it was so good we would
all be using it. Obvious. Yet even today new homes in estates are being
built with low pressure tanks in the lofts. Why? Beats me. Most

plumbers
don't even know how thermal stores work.


You must be a plumber on the
side then, as well as working in a
merchant.


Not a plumber. No drains and gutters.

But, Gledhill Thermal Stores are
making headway in the new build sector.

As it is, they are optimised to
heat cylinders (or stores)
quickly for hot water purposes
and to drive radiators directly.


They are designed for the replacement
market, which is now the largest sector.

That is the main point of arranging
for them to modulate.


No. It is to mate onto an existing system.


Radiators are radiators. If the
radiator system is designed to have
been run from a conventional 82/70 boiler,
then at certain times of the year, high
temperatures will be needed. If it sized to give
more output and work with 70/50 from a
condensing boiler then fine as
well and it will be more efficient. Either
way a modulating boiler
is beneficial if it is condensing.


If directly attached to an existing system.

The vast majority do modulate, and
very few are around that have fixed output,
simply because a store is not the best
way to implement a space heating solution
unless other energy sources are being added in.


As indicated to you the store is the best way. Simpler, more effective,

and
all rooms can have "fully" independent temp control.


It isn't simpler because you are adding
a store, pump and controls.


No zone valves, just simple pumps.

On warm up the rads
are hot instantly.


The key thing is the radiator output
in proportion to that required to
address the heat loss of the room.


The TRVs do that. Independent room control "in all rooms"

Since many boilers have high peak
outputs anyway, what you describe
is at best a second order effect.


More BS.

Any switching of the boiler will be on
a very long interval, just as it is with
a store. However, since this
is occuring at a much lower power
level than happens when driving a
store, there is less energy waste at
the time the boiler fires up. It
will also be working directly in its
most efficient temperature range.

By inserting an outside weather
compensator that dictates the temperature of
the stored CH water in the thermla store,
a condensing boiler operates to
max efficiency. Simple to do.

If you do that and reduce the temperature
in the store, it is no longer optimal for
heating the water.


I think you mean DHW. You only have the lower CH section controlled by

the
compensator. The upper DHW section can be 70, 75, 80C. The upper and

lower
sectionnwill be at too very different temperatures, with the lower
controlled by the outside waether compensator. This lower CH section

could
be as low as 35C and the boiler operates in a low temperature high

efficient
environment.


This is waffle.


Read again. You can move your lips.

Unless you split the store into
discrete and separate sections or have
two stores, you can't achieve any
accuracy of control, especially as
you only have one source of heat
into the store.


The store can be split into two temperature zone with the same cylidner,
both temp zones heated via the same heat souces.

...Lord Hall doesn't know, a man who has no clue
...he has no clue about the things which are known to me and you

...24/7 he is vacant in his head
...no knoweldge, reason, logic, this must be said

...drivel and babble just comes so
...relentless, incoherrent in its flow

...it's time take no notice of this hot head babbling fool
...just laugh and smile and thank the Lord you are sane and cool



  #28   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:43:16 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


It does not improve performance in the
sense of flow rate,

What is he on about.

and if used to make a worthwhile reduction in
cylinder size, the stored energy may well
run out reducing the performance and
water temperature substantially - in effect creating a
combi. Not a very interesting solution.

This one hasn't a clue. You size the boiler output and then size the
cylinder to support, to attain the level of DHW flow and volume required.


You are obfuscating again.


Quite clear.


I thought so.



Likewise, control interlock in the form
of a room thermostat is also trivial for those
of average intelligence or above.

A room stat cuts off the whole system or zone.
Having TRVs on all rads and
and Alpha pump, all off a store has no drawbacks.


The drawback is putting the store in
the middle of the control system
forcing the boiler to operate outside
its optimal range for space
heating as well as for DHW.


Nonsense. The store is a great neutral point asset.


Where do you get these lines?

It's a neutral point asset *perhaps* if there is a requirement to
introduce heat from solar etc.


The boiler work can
work at very low temperatures when a weather compensator is attached to the
CH section. This also reduces boiler cycling too. A great assset.


Waffle. You know full well that this only does anything worthwhile if
there were separate heating and DHW stores. Since the former is
pointless anyway, the whole thing goes full circle to where we came
in.



If you want TRVs on all rads with a boiler
directly heating that rads, the
control interlock becomes more complex
and not standard. A major drawback.


Rubbish. This is entirely the standard
implementation used in millions of homes.
TRVs on all radiators except one located in the
room with room thermostat.


You can't read. I said "TRVs on all rads", not one left open that switches
the system off when some rooms are calling for heat. Silly idea.


As you very well know, the radiator in the room without TRV is
adjusted such that the rooms with TRVs are satisfied for heat before
the thermostat turns off.

Ask the rep to help you with this one.



Surely you are not trying to claim
that room thermostats are complex
are you? Ask the Danfoss rep.
to explain how they work next time
he's in.


With a boiler directly heating rads if all rads have TRVs, complexity arises
to ensure the boiler has flow though it at all times. A thermal store using
Alpha pumps eliminates this complexity.


The whole thing is pointless and unnecessary in the first place, so
adding self adjusting pumps is a separate issue. If a bypass is
required, it can easily be implemented anyway.




Taking the rad circuits from the store you
can have TRVs on all rads, by only having
a Grundfos Alpha on the circuit.
You can have two CH zones directly off
the store both with just an Alpha
pump and TRVs on all rads.

This is pointless.

There is no central wall room stat to lmock ooff the zone. What is warm

in
one room maybe cold in another.

A modulating condensing boiler can do this
directly.

Without a room stat? It can but complexity arises, and the control
interlock and by-pass. The thermals store/Alpha pump is by far the best
solution.


You are spouting nonsense as has already been explained.


You lack comprehension. There is complexity using a thermals store, an
Alpha pumps and TRVs on all rads.


yes I know.


No room stat required, no by-pass no flow
switches, none of any of that.


So what.


Alpha are also quiet in operation as they
vary the speed.


I know. I have one, but not for that application


Several have pump speed control
as well so that the boiler
burn rate, water flow rate and
temperatures can all be optimised for
maximum condensing efficiency and
lack of cycling.

All added complexity which can be avoided by using a thermal store.


It is no more added complexity
to have a pump which is controlled by
the boiler electronics vs. an external Alpha.


Much more needless complexity.


Ask the rep to explain to you about system boilers.




In effect what you are suggesting
is an arrangement where you disable
the designed control system of the
boiler by putting a store between
it and the load that it can so easily
control,


You have a boiler without a complicated control system. Simpler, cheaper,
longer lasting and more reliable.


There are loads of extra discrete components in your scheme and a
bunch of compromises that make no sense when a modulating condensing
boiler is used.

A pump is a pump whether it is fitted inside a boiler or outside. The
extra thermostats, relays, switches, pumps and other paraphernalia are
superfluous if the system is designed as the boiler manufacturers
intended and not as a Heath Robinson project like you are suggesting.



to run the boiler outside of its
optimal range of temperature


The boiler runs at the temperatures dicted by the buiklding load dictated by
a weather compensator. The compensator heats the stored water in te CH
section of the store.


Really? How does it manage to do that? They are normally a sensor
on the wall outside plus some electronics. Are you running pipes to
the outside wall now?



and then to attempt to
redress the issue by fitting an Alpha,
which good though it is, only
operates based on detecting
flow/pressure and not under control of the
boiler, which also knows aout temperature
and optimisation of that.


The Alpha does not have to be under the control of the boiler. It is better
separated from the boiler totally and run from a thermal store.


It is designed to be standalone and for certain applications is
useful. However, having flow rate controlled by the same controller
as the boiler firing rate and temperatures will by definition be a
superior solution simply because the control systems are closed loop
and not disassociated as you are suggesting.



Optimisation of temperature is best done via a weather compensator, not the
boiler.


Optimisation of temperature is best done with an outside temperature
sensor connected directly to the boiler electronics and taken into
account by them when directly controlling the pump and burn rate.
This also optimises efficiency.



..

There is a burner, a heat exchanger, a board of electronics, a fan, a
gas valve and perhaps a pump. This is not "highly complex" any more
than any decent quality modulating boiler.

With a thermal store a cheap
simple boiler can be used to better effect.


As long as the boiler is a non-condensing
one, possibly.


Nope. A condesning boiler is fully optimised.


Yes, to drive a space heating load directly.



You must be a plumber on the
side then, as well as working in a
merchant.


Not a plumber. No drains and gutters.


Ah. Probably best. Hard to cut with a junior hacksaw.



But, Gledhill Thermal Stores are
making headway in the new build sector.

As it is, they are optimised to
heat cylinders (or stores)
quickly for hot water purposes
and to drive radiators directly.

They are designed for the replacement
market, which is now the largest sector.

That is the main point of arranging
for them to modulate.

No. It is to mate onto an existing system.


Radiators are radiators. If the
radiator system is designed to have
been run from a conventional 82/70 boiler,
then at certain times of the year, high
temperatures will be needed. If it sized to give
more output and work with 70/50 from a
condensing boiler then fine as
well and it will be more efficient. Either
way a modulating boiler
is beneficial if it is condensing.


If directly attached to an existing system.


Even if attached to a newly designed system with larger heat emitters.



The vast majority do modulate, and
very few are around that have fixed output,
simply because a store is not the best
way to implement a space heating solution
unless other energy sources are being added in.

As indicated to you the store is the best way. Simpler, more effective,

and
all rooms can have "fully" independent temp control.


It isn't simpler because you are adding
a store, pump and controls.


No zone valves, just simple pumps.


"simple" pumps. Alpha. Hmm...





On warm up the rads
are hot instantly.


The key thing is the radiator output
in proportion to that required to
address the heat loss of the room.


The TRVs do that. Independent room control "in all rooms"

Since many boilers have high peak
outputs anyway, what you describe
is at best a second order effect.


More BS.


Exactly. That's why I highlighted the error of your ways.



Unless you split the store into
discrete and separate sections or have
two stores, you can't achieve any
accuracy of control, especially as
you only have one source of heat
into the store.


The store can be split into two temperature zone with the same cylidner,
both temp zones heated via the same heat souces.

There is very little splitting possible because the water will
naturally convect and form a single temperature gradient.

This was first form physics in grammar school or in my case already
covered in the penultimate year of primary school.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #29   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Nonsense. The store is a great neutral point asset.


Where do you get these lines?


From brilliant knowledge and experience.

The boiler work can
work at very low temperatures
when a weather compensator is attached to the
CH section. This also reduces boiler cycling too.
A great assset.


Waffle.


snip drivel

If you want TRVs on all rads with a boiler
directly heating that rads, the
control interlock becomes more complex
and not standard. A major drawback.

Rubbish. This is entirely the standard
implementation used in millions of homes.
TRVs on all radiators except one located in the
room with room thermostat.


You can't read. I said "TRVs on all rads", not one left open that

switches
the system off when some rooms are calling for heat. Silly idea.


As you very well know, the radiator in the room without TRV is
adjusted such that the rooms with TRVs are satisfied for heat before
the thermostat turns off.


Then there is the boioer interlock.

Surely you are not trying to claim
that room thermostats are complex
are you? Ask the Danfoss rep.
to explain how they work next time
he's in.


With a boiler directly heating rads if all rads have TRVs, complexity

arises
to ensure the boiler has flow though it at all times. A thermal store

using
Alpha pumps eliminates this complexity.


The whole thing is pointless
and unnecessary in the first place, so
adding self adjusting pumps is a
separate issue. If a bypass is
required, it can easily be implemented anyway.


No by-pass, which could go wrong and wreck your boioer, with thermal store.

Alpha are also quiet in operation as they
vary the speed.


I know. I have one, but not for that application


Then you should use it on a thermal store.

In effect what you are suggesting
is an arrangement where you disable
the designed control system of the
boiler by putting a store between
it and the load that it can so easily
control,


You have a boiler without a complicated control system. Simpler,

cheaper,
longer lasting and more reliable.


There are loads of extra discrete
components in your scheme


Few components. It is simple and highly effective, reliable and efficient.

and a bunch of compromises


No compromises whatsoever. All aspects: CH, DHW and Boiler are optimised.

that make no sense when a modulating condensing
boiler is used.


No need for such complexity when thermal store is used. Modulating boilers
in themselves are compromises.

A pump is a pump whether it is
fitted inside a boiler or outside.


Some modulates to system pressure - Alpha.

The extra thermostats, relays, switches,
pumps and other paraphernalia are
superfluous if the system is designed
as the boiler manufacturers
intended and not as a Heath Robinson
project like you are suggesting.


This is utterly pathetic, bending your system to suit the whims of a boiler
manufacturer. A designer has control of a system using a thermal store.
The store a neutral point at the centre of the system. The boiler is heat
source, that is all. The one aspect of the system can be optimised fro the
rads which also optimises the boiler performance - by using a weather
compensator.

to run the boiler outside of its
optimal range of temperature


The boiler runs at the temperatures
dicted by the building load dictated by
a weather compensator. The
compensator heats the stored water in the CH
section of the store.


Really? How does it manage to do that?


Controlling a cheap simple boiler

and then to attempt to
redress the issue by fitting an Alpha,
which good though it is, only
operates based on detecting
flow/pressure and not under control of the
boiler, which also knows aout temperature
and optimisation of that.


The Alpha does not have to be under the control of the boiler. It is

better
separated from the boiler totally and run from a thermal store.


It is designed to be standalone
and for certain applications is
useful.


In this is it brilliant and ideal and no need for a boiler to be involved.

However, having flow rate controlled
by the same controller as the boiler
firing rate and temperatures will
by definition be a superior solution
simply because the control systems are closed loop
and not disassociated as you are suggesting.


Not a superior solution. The weather compensator decides the rads flow
temperature and then ensures a store of water is at that temperature. A
simple boiler is used to heat the stored water to the desired temperature,
maintain the boiler at optimum operating condition for efficiency, which
also eliminates boiler cycling. The mass of water ensures this. The boilers
is on full flow all the time as no rads with thermo valves to close down the
flow. Always at the right optimised temp for the system.

Optimisation of temperature is best done
via a weather compensator, not the
boiler.


Optimisation of temperature is best
done with an outside temperature
sensor connected directly to the
boiler electronics and taken into
account by them when directly
controlling the pump and burn rate.
This also optimises efficiency.


Not so. Best is have a mass of water at the correct temperature for the
rads dictated by the outside weather compensator. This eliminates:

- boiler cycling totally.
- boiler interlocks
- by-passes
- room stats that control a system or heating zone

Promotes:

- efficient optimum boiler operation, always operating at the lowest
temperature set by the weather compensator
- independent room temperature control, not overriden by overall system
temperature control
- quiet CH zone operation
- instant heat at rads
- Instant DHW
- few overall part
- no complex parts, apart from weather compensator, which is not complex by
todays stadards.
- simple parts: simple boiler, simple thermo rad valves simple pumps
- elmimation of troublesome parts
- etc
- etc.

No zone valves, just simple pumps.


"simple" pumps. Alpha. Hmm...


Simple and self contained. Just treated as any other pump.

Unless you split the store into
discrete and separate sections or have
two stores, you can't achieve any
accuracy of control, especially as
you only have one source of heat
into the store.


The store can be split into two temperature zone with the same cylidner,
both temp zones heated via the same heat souces.

There is very little splitting possible
because the water will naturally convect
and form a single temperature gradient.


Nonsense. Distinct tem,temperature zone scan be maintained.

...Lord Hall doesn't know, a man who has no clue
...he has no clue about the things which are known to me and you

...24/7 he is vacant in his head
...no knoweldge, reason, logic, this must be said

...drivel and babble just comes so
...relentless, incoherrent in its flow

...it's time take no notice of this hot head babbling fool
...just laugh and smile and thank the Lord you are sane and cool



  #30   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:20:26 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



No by-pass, which could go wrong and wreck your boioer, with thermal store.


Now you really are scratching around.

Do you have a dud batch that you are trying to return to the
manufacturer or something?



Few components. It is simple and highly effective, reliable and efficient.

and a bunch of compromises


No compromises whatsoever. All aspects: CH, DHW and Boiler are optimised.


Not with your arrangement.



that make no sense when a modulating condensing
boiler is used.


No need for such complexity when thermal store is used. Modulating boilers
in themselves are compromises.


Everything's a compromise. Defeating control systems unnecessarily is
pointless.




A pump is a pump whether it is
fitted inside a boiler or outside.


Some modulates to system pressure - Alpha.


Sigh......



The extra thermostats, relays, switches,
pumps and other paraphernalia are
superfluous if the system is designed
as the boiler manufacturers
intended and not as a Heath Robinson
project like you are suggesting.


This is utterly pathetic, bending your system to suit the whims of a boiler
manufacturer.


Who knows how to correctly match his heat source and control system to
a standard load.


A designer has control of a system using a thermal store.


You are attempting to gild a lily and painting it with ****e instead.



The store a neutral point at the centre of the system. The boiler is heat
source, that is all.


That depends on the boiler. If it's one of the budget range that you
sell because you get free trips to Eyebyeza then quite possibly.

If it's a decent quality one with integral controlled pump, conrolled
modulating burner and weather compensation then it is a great deal
more.

I am surprised that you even tried that one. Actually, no I'm not.



The one aspect of the system can be optimised fro the
rads which also optimises the boiler performance - by using a weather
compensator.


Waffle.





It is designed to be standalone
and for certain applications is
useful.


In this is it brilliant and ideal and no need for a boiler to be involved.

However, having flow rate controlled
by the same controller as the boiler
firing rate and temperatures will
by definition be a superior solution
simply because the control systems are closed loop
and not disassociated as you are suggesting.


Not a superior solution. The weather compensator decides the rads flow
temperature and then ensures a store of water is at that temperature. A
simple boiler is used to heat the stored water to the desired temperature,
maintain the boiler at optimum operating condition for efficiency, which
also eliminates boiler cycling. The mass of water ensures this. The boilers
is on full flow all the time as no rads with thermo valves to close down the
flow. Always at the right optimised temp for the system.


Complete waffle. What desired temperature? You still haven't
explained how you propose to optimise for the maximum efficiency of
the boiler (low temperatures), the requirement for the store to be at
high temperature for DHW production and the needs of space heating
(variable to match the weather conditions.

You can't achieve all of these objectives with a single store. Two
would be required and then the boiler would still be run non optimally
for space heating.




Optimisation of temperature is best done
via a weather compensator, not the
boiler.


Optimisation of temperature is best
done with an outside temperature
sensor connected directly to the
boiler electronics and taken into
account by them when directly
controlling the pump and burn rate.
This also optimises efficiency.


Not so. Best is have a mass of water at the correct temperature for the
rads dictated by the outside weather compensator. This eliminates:

- boiler cycling totally.


No it doesn't.

- boiler interlocks


No it doesn't

- by-passes


Irrelevant.

- room stats that control a system or heating zone


Big deal.


Promotes:

- efficient optimum boiler operation, always operating at the lowest
temperature set by the weather compensator


No it doesn't unless two stores are used and even then the boiler does
not have the opportunity to modulate down to most optimum rate during
space heating because the control is defeated.


- independent room temperature control, not overriden by overall system
temperature control


Achievable whatever.

- quiet CH zone operation


Achievable whatever


- instant heat at rads


Second order effect on rate of rise in room temperature


- Instant DHW


Achievable in many other ways as well and a store is a good way for
this part, just not for space heating with this type of boiler.

- few overall part


highly debatable

- no complex parts, apart from weather compensator, which is not complex by
todays stadards.


No complex parts either way.


- simple parts: simple boiler, simple thermo rad valves simple pumps


the discussion is about a modulating boiler not a conventional non
condensing one.


Unless you split the store into
discrete and separate sections or have
two stores, you can't achieve any
accuracy of control, especially as
you only have one source of heat
into the store.

The store can be split into two temperature zone with the same cylidner,
both temp zones heated via the same heat souces.

There is very little splitting possible
because the water will naturally convect
and form a single temperature gradient.


Nonsense. Distinct tem,temperature zone scan be maintained.


Even you (actually especially you) can't defy physics.

You cannot control a temperature gradient in a single body of water in
two separate and discrete entities which is what you are suggesting
here. It will naturally convect to form a single one.

If you wanted to tap off at a certain point on a cylinder to get a
lower temperature or deliver a lower temperature in a fixed way, that
is reasonable.


However, you have been suggesting that the needs of DHW production
(80 degree storage) and spae heating with weather compensated
temperature control of the stored water is possible in a single
vessel. It very obviously isn't






--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl


  #31   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:20:26 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



No by-pass, which could go wrong and wreck your boiler, with thermal

store.

Now you really are scratching around.


Not at all. Also they open up and defeat the object of a condensing boiler
and greatly raise the return temperature.

It is clear you are very silly

snip garbage by Lord Hall

...Lord Hall doesn't know, a man who has no clue
...he has no clue about the things which are known to me and you

...24/7 he is vacant in his head
...no knoweldge, reason, logic, this must be said

...drivel and babble just comes so
...relentless, incoherrent in its flow

...it's time take no notice of this hot head babbling fool
...just laugh and smile and thank the Lord you are sane and cool


  #32   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:53:19 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:20:26 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



No by-pass, which could go wrong and wreck your boiler, with thermal

store.

Now you really are scratching around.


Not at all. Also they open up and defeat the object of a condensing boiler
and greatly raise the return temperature.


You know very well that an ABV is set to only open when the circuit
flows are stopped entirely.

Ask the rep to explain it to you.

A tub of Boss White please.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #33   Report Post  
Doctor Drivel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:53:19 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:20:26 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



No by-pass, which could go wrong and wreck your boiler, with thermal

store.

Now you really are scratching around.


Not at all. Also they open up and defeat the object of a condensing

boiler
and greatly raise the return temperature.


You know very well that an ABV is set to only open when the circuit
flows are stopped entirely.


The hall rad is balanced it may not pass enough flow for the boiler, so the
by-pass opens. Best avoid a by-pass and use a thermal store/heat bank and
an Alpha pump.

..."self abuse"! Lord Hall doth shout
...he heavily indudges, of this no doubt
...of this act he does hanker
...that's why his mates call him the DIY ******



  #34   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:48:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:53:19 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:20:26 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



No by-pass, which could go wrong and wreck your boiler, with thermal
store.

Now you really are scratching around.

Not at all. Also they open up and defeat the object of a condensing

boiler
and greatly raise the return temperature.


You know very well that an ABV is set to only open when the circuit
flows are stopped entirely.


The hall rad is balanced it may not pass enough flow for the boiler, so the
by-pass opens. Best avoid a by-pass and use a thermal store/heat bank and
an Alpha pump.


Don't be silly. This is a non issue.

1) There is nothing that says that the radiator in the hall has to be
used as the non-TRV one nor that it would be of a size where there is
insufficient flow.

2) It is perfectly possible to choose living room or other locations
as the non-TRV location.

3) TRVs do not close off completely until the room temperature is
above the set point. They close off gradually with temperature and
reduce the flow first. In order to make sure that the temperatures in
rooms with TRV achieve a desired level, the TRVs are set to make sure
that that happens close to when the room thermostat becomes satisfied.


I know that you are clutching at straws, but it is more typical to use
hemp, not straw in combination with Boss White for thread sealing.

A plastic pipe cutter and three lengths of 15mm barrier tube please...



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #35   Report Post  
Rick
 
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For a Thermal Store - you are right it is far better to turn off
modulation - you can do this by a simple removal of a bridge on most
boilers.

I have a Baxi 100HE/Barcelona just pull out one bridge to turn off
modulation, and also pull 2nd bridge to put in in high power mode.

most boilers are the same.

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