In article , Andrew McKay wrote:
I recently posted an article on this forum in respect of the
government introducing new regulations to require electrical work to
be carried out by a registered electrician.

See http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_023509.hcsp - report on same. I haven't read it.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Surely you can be a registered electrician without the NIECC accreditation ?

. From next April it will
become law for electrical work to be undertaken only by said
electricians (a bit like corgi for gas fitters).

Is this your take on draft document ?

"Work self-certified by competent persons. The proposals allow that approved
competent persons could self-certify compliance of their electrical
installation work with the Building Regulations. Would it be sensible to allow
non-approved persons to proceed with electrical installation work without
giving prior notice if it is to be certified at completion by someone who is
approved? "
This in quotes is copied from doc, what you need to know or to be clarified is
the definition of 1 competent person, 2 non approved person, and 3 someone who
is approved.And from what guidline set of rules or euro manual they come from
and what body etc has approved them. Also the scope and paramaters of said
persons, approved or competent and there duties.


1) No need to worry, I can always sign up to NICEIC or another
registered body and do the work that way (no I can't - the entry
qualifications wouldn't allow me to seek accreditation).

There are about 7 or 8 registered bodies quoted in OIDPM doc, and federation of
small buisnesses is one of them. As you provide a handyman service you can
apply to this body I am sure.

Minor works such as adding a light fitting or spur won't be subject
to this new legislation. Unless it is in a kitchen or bathroom. Well
done Mr Prescott, you've probably just removed about 50% of my work
opportunities within the home.

This subject has been discussed at college at length with my lecturers. It is
not the work that will change, but the isseuing of a minor works certificate,
incorporating test results to be issued on alterations, new builds etc aswell.
This document can be downloaded off the IEE site.
I have responded again, pointing out my feelings on the above. However
I think that we are dealing with a bunch of hypocrits who have no
interest in understanding the problem they are dealing with.

The problem is unqualified people installing a system. On a domestic
installation point, sellers of a property will ( this may be rumour )
eventually l need a certificate to confirm the electrical installation of there
property conforms to regs, ( but perhaps this rumour was started by copper and
solder manufactures to out the easy fit platic plumbing products out of
buisness )

I will be watching this post with interest

"Wheelbarrowbob" wrote in message
...
. From next April it will
become law for electrical work to be undertaken only by said
electricians (a bit like corgi for gas fitters).

Is this your take on draft document ?

"Work self-certified by competent persons. The proposals allow that approved
competent persons could self-certify compliance of their electrical
installation work with the Building Regulations. Would it be sensible to allow
non-approved persons to proceed with electrical installation work without
giving prior notice if it is to be certified at completion by someone who is
approved? "

this is what happens now. The number of deaths is minimal.

Minor works such as adding a light fitting or spur won't be subject
to this new legislation. Unless it is in a kitchen or bathroom. Well
done Mr Prescott, you've probably just removed about 50% of my work
opportunities within the home.

This subject has been discussed at college at length with my lecturers. It is
not the work that will change, but the isseuing of a minor works certificate,
incorporating test results to be issued on alterations, new builds etc aswell.
This document can be downloaded off the IEE site.
I have responded again, pointing out my feelings on the above. However
I think that we are dealing with a bunch of hypocrits who have no
interest in understanding the problem they are dealing with.

The problem is unqualified people installing a system.

This is exactly what happens now.

On a domestic
installation point, sellers of a property will ( this may be rumour )
eventually l need a certificate to confirm the electrical installation of there
property conforms to regs,

And this can happen as well. Currently if I want to work on my house
I can, but when I come to sell it someone may ant it checked. what's the
big deal.

( but perhaps this rumour was started by copper and
solder manufactures to out the easy fit platic plumbing products out of
buisness )

I will be watching this post with interest

There was a very long thread on this a few weeks ago.

The rules are full of holes, un-enforcable and potentially create more
problems than they solve.

Tim

"N. Thornton" wrote:

In America people are taught about the basic principles of government,
and there they'd never put up with this kind of nonsense.

Hah. A number of years ago (20?) in a town in northern New Jersey, there
was a case of an elderly couple brought up on charges for daring to lay
plywood down in their kitchen, preparatory to installing new lino/vinyl.
Apparently they were supposed to get a permit, and have the work officially
inspected - the charges were eventually withdrawn.
In many areas, it is (technically) not permitted to install or even move,
your own electrical sockets, and working on gas is a definite no-no.
Plumbing work, too, requires permits and professionals. The regulations
are ignored by many, and the sheds - Home Depot, Lowes, etc, sell vast
amounts of supplies to diyers.

Sheila (who has lived in both the US and the UK).

tim wrote:



The rules are full of holes, un-enforcable and potentially create more
problems than they solve.


As the OP stated the situation would be worse than for gas fitting,
frankly it will be unenforceable.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Wheelbarrowbob" wrote in message
...
. From next April it will
become law for electrical work to be undertaken only by said
electricians (a bit like corgi for gas fitters).

Is this your take on draft document ?

"Work self-certified by competent persons. The proposals allow that
approved
competent persons could self-certify compliance of their electrical
installation work with the Building Regulations. Would it be sensible to
allow
non-approved persons to proceed with electrical installation work without
giving prior notice if it is to be certified at completion by someone who
is
approved? "
This in quotes is copied from doc, what you need to know or to be
clarified is
the definition of 1 competent person, 2 non approved person, and 3 someone
who
is approved.And from what guidline set of rules or euro manual they come
from
and what body etc has approved them. Also the scope and paramaters of said
persons, approved or competent and there duties.


1) No need to worry, I can always sign up to NICEIC or another
registered body and do the work that way (no I can't - the entry
qualifications wouldn't allow me to seek accreditation).

There are about 7 or 8 registered bodies quoted in OIDPM doc, and
federation of
small buisnesses is one of them. As you provide a handyman service you can
apply to this body I am sure.


So, as I own a small business, nothing to do with electrical work, I can
apply to the FSB and will be therefore be able to self-cert electrical work
in my own home? I doubt it, somehow.


Minor works such as adding a light fitting or spur won't be subject
to this new legislation. Unless it is in a kitchen or bathroom. Well
done Mr Prescott, you've probably just removed about 50% of my work
opportunities within the home.

This subject has been discussed at college at length with my lecturers. It
is
not the work that will change, but the isseuing of a minor works
certificate,
incorporating test results to be issued on alterations, new builds etc
aswell.
This document can be downloaded off the IEE site.
I have responded again, pointing out my feelings on the above. However
I think that we are dealing with a bunch of hypocrits who have no
interest in understanding the problem they are dealing with.

The problem is unqualified people installing a system.

Why is this a problem? Incompetent people, perhaps, but qualification is
not a guarantee of competence, and lack of qualification is most certainly
not an indication of incompetence.

On a domestic
installation point, sellers of a property will ( this may be rumour )
eventually l need a certificate to confirm the electrical installation of
there
property conforms to regs, ( but perhaps this rumour was started by copper
and
solder manufactures to out the easy fit platic plumbing products out of
buisness )

So does this make a house that does not conform to current regs unsaleable?
That kind of makes the wiring regs retrospective legislation.


I will be watching this post with interest



--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

Ed Sirett wrote:
tim wrote:


The rules are full of holes, un-enforcable and potentially create more
problems than they solve.



As the OP stated the situation would be worse than for gas fitting,
frankly it will be unenforceable.

And is more likely to cause deaths I would expect. Where in the past
someone may have thought "I will install these five new sockets on a new
ring" they may now be tempted to add them as spurs to existing wiring
since that would be a "permitted" change that would not need
certification. Hence it is encouring people to make changes in way that
is less safe just so as to have them classed as minor and hence avoid
certification problems.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

As the OP stated the situation would be worse than for gas fitting,
frankly it will be unenforceable.

And is more likely to cause deaths I would expect. Where in the past
someone may have thought "I will install these five new sockets on a new
ring" they may now be tempted to add them as spurs to existing wiring
since that would be a "permitted" change that would not need
certification. Hence it is encouring people to make changes in way that
is less safe just so as to have them classed as minor and hence avoid
certification problems.


Also whats to stop someone doing some work in 2005 and if/when asked about
certification saying it was completed in 2003 before the regulations?

Jaime

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:15:59 +0100, "Jaime"
wrote:

As the OP stated the situation would be worse than for gas fitting,
frankly it will be unenforceable.

And is more likely to cause deaths I would expect. Where in the past
someone may have thought "I will install these five new sockets on a new
ring" they may now be tempted to add them as spurs to existing wiring
since that would be a "permitted" change that would not need
certification. Hence it is encouring people to make changes in way that
is less safe just so as to have them classed as minor and hence avoid
certification problems.


Also whats to stop someone doing some work in 2005 and if/when asked about
certification saying it was completed in 2003 before the regulations?

Jaime


As in all these things the real testing point would come as a result
of some other event, most likely in this case the sale of the
property.

Undoubtedly conveyancing questionnaires would contain an appropriate
question to pick this up. Telling fibs as a vendor in this case
would be a serious matter.

Since it appears that seller's packs are likely to become more
prevalent and funded by the vendor, one strategy that I expect a lot
of people will use would be simply to wait until they want to sell
and then pay for a full electrical inspection, which they would have
to do anyway.

Another strategy might be to apply for a regularisation at the local
authority.

This is one of the many aspects of this whole charade that makes the
whole thing pointless.

You will notice if you look on Bruiser's web site that this game of
certification by trade organisations is one of the hobby horses and is
one of the most cynical pieces of window dressing for a long time.

If you read through the report on this, it is very apparent that only
the views of industry stakeholders and the trade organisations have
been taken into account. By their own admission, they have ignored
the views of everybody else who has written in either directly or via
their MPs.

This, along with the multitude of other sins of this cavalier nature
will hopefully lead to the early demise of its political perpetrators.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
"Work self-certified by competent persons. The proposals allow that
approved
competent persons could self-certify compliance of their electrical
installation work with the Building Regulations. Would it be sensible
to allow
non-approved persons to proceed with electrical installation work
without
giving prior notice if it is to be certified at completion by someone
who is
approved? "

this is what happens now. The number of deaths is minimal.


I find it quite worrying that millions of people will be open to
harrassment and prosecution for the crime of... repairing their own
home.

This same power and control game is being played in many other areas
as well. Its not just diy.

In America people are taught about the basic principles of government,
and there they'd never put up with this kind of nonsense. Ask any
merican what they think about our law outlawing sale of goods that
have the weight marked in pounds but not kilos.

I can't believe any would say that. We deal in kilos, so I want to see
kilos. Do you go into a shop and see a product marked up in pesos? No you
don't because we use £s.

The said idiot in Sunderland could have displayed pounds, but the law said
he should also show kilos as that is our official metric.



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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
N. Thornton wrote:

The saving lives argument doesnt hold for one simple reason: one can
save far more lives with less effort, less cost and no trampling on
peoples basic rights by putting up more speed cameras.

There is good evidence that when you saturate an area with speed cameras
the accident rate goes up. This is because many people stop driving on
the main roads to avoid the cameras, and start cutting through narrower
back streets - hence mixing more people and traffic which is always a
recipe for accidents.

It has also been found that other crime rises because people start to
feel "under siege" and hence less likey to co-operate with the police.
You only need look at north Wales where they have a speeding obsessed
chief constable - the number of tickets issued has risen massivly, but
at the same time as the detection and clearup rates for other serious
crime has plummeted to the some of the lowest figures in the country.

Good point.


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On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:07:04 +0100, "Jaime"
wrote:




I though it seemed like a industry protectionist thing, what's to stop me
just joining the trade organisation or do they have requirements? Also what
about other trade organisations, perhaps connected perhaps not - could a
Plummer do electrical work or a gas fitter etc..

Jaime


There's an entry cost in terms of training and annual fees that would
make it economically unattractive if you are only doing your own work.
Also, I believe with NICEIC, you have to have a number of different
jobs checked anyway.

If you want to span multiple trades then you would have to belong to
multiple organisations. This would prove very expensive.

As Richard says, this is the 21st century version of the closed shop,
rather thinly disguised, I am afraid.

Fortunately, as with all restrictive practices, ultimately it doesn't
work - the market prevents it.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:07:04 +0100, "Jaime"
wrote:




I though it seemed like a industry protectionist thing, what's to stop me
just joining the trade organisation or do they have requirements? Also
what
about other trade organisations, perhaps connected perhaps not - could a
Plummer do electrical work or a gas fitter etc..

Jaime


There's an entry cost in terms of training and annual fees that would
make it economically unattractive if you are only doing your own work.
Also, I believe with NICEIC, you have to have a number of different
jobs checked anyway.

If you want to span multiple trades then you would have to belong to
multiple organisations. This would prove very expensive.

As Richard says, this is the 21st century version of the closed shop,
rather thinly disguised, I am afraid.

Fortunately, as with all restrictive practices, ultimately it doesn't
work - the market prevents it.

Balls! Oxbridge, public schools, the royal family, aristocracy, large land
owners. Strange that these people close shop the corridors of power. Power
= wealth. When the working classes emulated via unions they went ape. How
dare they copy us they said, under their breath, we will have to ban them.
And they did, while their closed shop continues unabated as it has done for
around 1000 years.


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

This, along with the multitude of other sins of this cavalier nature
will hopefully lead to the early demise of its political perpetrators.

Are you going to vote Tory as usual?


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On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:37:33 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

This, along with the multitude of other sins of this cavalier nature
will hopefully lead to the early demise of its political perpetrators.

Are you going to vote Tory as usual?

I always vote on the balance of issues.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:33:57 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:07:04 +0100, "Jaime"
wrote:




I though it seemed like a industry protectionist thing, what's to stop
me
just joining the trade organisation or do they have requirements? Also
what
about other trade organisations, perhaps connected perhaps not - could
a
Plummer do electrical work or a gas fitter etc..

Jaime


There's an entry cost in terms of training and annual fees that would
make it economically unattractive if you are only doing your own work.
Also, I believe with NICEIC, you have to have a number of different
jobs checked anyway.

If you want to span multiple trades then you would have to belong to
multiple organisations. This would prove very expensive.

As Richard says, this is the 21st century version of the closed shop,
rather thinly disguised, I am afraid.

Fortunately, as with all restrictive practices, ultimately it doesn't
work - the market prevents it.

Balls! Oxbridge, public schools, the royal family, aristocracy, large
land
owners. Strange that these people close shop the corridors of power.
Power
= wealth. When the working classes emulated via unions they went ape.
How
dare they copy us they said, under their breath, we will have to ban
them.
And they did, while their closed shop continues unabated as it has done
for
around 1000 years.

Yawn.....

You said you were against closed shops.




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On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:50:13 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:37:33 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

This, along with the multitude of other sins of this cavalier nature
will hopefully lead to the early demise of its political perpetrators.

Are you going to vote Tory as usual?

I always vote on the balance of issues.

So that is Tory to you.

No, I said what I meant.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..
The problem is unqualified people installing a system.

Why is this a problem? Incompetent people, perhaps, but qualification is
not a guarantee of competence, and lack of qualification is most certainly
not an indication of incompetence.



I agree that on a bog standard installation any chimp could do it - the
difference is knowing which is a bog standard and which isn't - and why.
When I took the 16th edition one of the questions required you to work out
the size of an earth conductor. The answer appeared to be a rediculous size
but when you factored in the losses / grouping / temperature etc. you could
see why it was necessary. How many unqualified diy'ers would have fitted the
correct size?

On a domestic
installation point, sellers of a property will ( this may be rumour )
eventually l need a certificate to confirm the electrical installation
of
there
property conforms to regs, ( but perhaps this rumour was started by
copper
and
solder manufactures to out the easy fit platic plumbing products out of
buisness )

So does this make a house that does not conform to current regs
unsaleable?
That kind of makes the wiring regs retrospective legislation.


It shouldn't, the (electrical) regs are neither retrospective or
legislation.

Richard

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:33:57 UTC, "IMM" wrote:

Balls! Oxbridge, public schools, the royal family, aristocracy, large land
owners. Strange that these people close shop the corridors of power. Power
= wealth. When the working classes emulated via unions they went ape. How
dare they copy us they said, under their breath, we will have to ban them.
And they did, while their closed shop continues unabated as it has done for
around 1000 years.

Does the hot weather make your medication ineffective?

--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70, PC/AT..

In article ,
N. Thornton wrote:
In America people are taught about the basic principles of government,
and there they'd never put up with this kind of nonsense. Ask any
merican what they think about our law outlawing sale of goods that
have the weight marked in pounds but not kilos.

Many Americans wouldn't wear seatbelts since it was an intrusion on their
liberty. So airbags arrived. And you're now paying for their stupidity.

--
*Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:33:57 UTC, "IMM" wrote:

Balls! Oxbridge, public schools, the royal family, aristocracy, large
land
owners. Strange that these people close shop the corridors of power.
Power
= wealth. When the working classes emulated via unions they went ape.
How
dare they copy us they said, under their breath, we will have to ban
them.
And they did, while their closed shop continues unabated as it has done
for
around 1000 years.

Does the hot weather make your medication ineffective?

You like being ripped off, don't you?


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"Frisket" wrote in message
...

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..
The problem is unqualified people installing a system.

Why is this a problem? Incompetent people, perhaps, but qualification
is
not a guarantee of competence, and lack of qualification is most
certainly
not an indication of incompetence.



I agree that on a bog standard installation any chimp could do it - the
difference is knowing which is a bog standard and which isn't - and why.
When I took the 16th edition one of the questions required you to work out
the size of an earth conductor. The answer appeared to be a rediculous
size
but when you factored in the losses / grouping / temperature etc. you
could
see why it was necessary. How many unqualified diy'ers would have fitted
the
correct size?

Most DIYers would know that the earth cable is always the largest

So does this make a house that does not conform to current regs
unsaleable?
That kind of makes the wiring regs retrospective legislation.


It shouldn't, the (electrical) regs are neither retrospective or
legislation.

gas regs are semi retrospective. A landlord has to get his installation up
to scratch. For e.g., each hob requires an isolation tap, which 5, 10 years
it didn't. So has to put one in.


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On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:04:47 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I agree that on a bog standard installation any chimp could do it - the
difference is knowing which is a bog standard and which isn't - and why.
When I took the 16th edition one of the questions required you to work out
the size of an earth conductor. The answer appeared to be a rediculous
size
but when you factored in the losses / grouping / temperature etc. you
could
see why it was necessary. How many unqualified diy'ers would have fitted
the
correct size?

Most DIYers would know that the earth cable is always the largest


Er no. In standard T/E cable the earth conductor is smaller than the
other two.....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Andy
Hall wrote:

This, along with the multitude of other sins of this cavalier
nature will hopefully lead to the early demise of its
political perpetrators.

Well it might, but you don't think that
anything would actually change do you?
I remember great soundbites from Michael
Heseltine etc pre-1979 about "bonfire
of controls", "jobs locked up in planners
filing cabinets" etc but when it came to
it they only added to planning restrictions.

The Tory party is the party of landowners. That is its origins. The large
land owners had a little word with Mickey and said leave the 1947 T&C
planning act alone as it keeps us in clover and we help fund the parties
propaganda machine. The Church of England probably said something similar
as they rely on rents to run the church. The Catholic doesn't, it funds its
church through its own fund raising not ripping people off in taking rents.

Blair is the only PM in modern history that is seriously tackling
constitutional change. He has to stay. The banana republic has to go.


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:04:47 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I agree that on a bog standard installation any chimp could do it - the
difference is knowing which is a bog standard and which isn't - and
why.
When I took the 16th edition one of the questions required you to work
out
the size of an earth conductor. The answer appeared to be a rediculous
size
but when you factored in the losses / grouping / temperature etc. you
could
see why it was necessary. How many unqualified diy'ers would have
fitted
the
correct size?

Most DIYers would know that the earth cable is always the largest


Er no. In standard T/E cable the earth conductor is smaller than the
other two.....

I mean at the CU.


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On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:48:52 +0100, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , Andy
Hall wrote:
This, along with the multitude of other sins of this cavalier
nature will hopefully lead to the early demise of its
political perpetrators.

Well it might, but you don't think that anything would actually
change do you? I remember great soundbites from Michael
Heseltine etc pre-1979 about "bonfire of controls", "jobs
locked up in planners filing cabinets" etc but when it came to
it they only added to planning restrictions.

True. I didn't say that any of the alternatives were any better
though.

Some competition of having more organisations able to certify, and a
broader range of qualifications rather than just trade organisations
would be positive.....

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:57:41 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Andy
Hall wrote:

This, along with the multitude of other sins of this cavalier
nature will hopefully lead to the early demise of its
political perpetrators.

Well it might, but you don't think that
anything would actually change do you?
I remember great soundbites from Michael
Heseltine etc pre-1979 about "bonfire
of controls", "jobs locked up in planners
filing cabinets" etc but when it came to
it they only added to planning restrictions.

The Tory party is the party of landowners. That is its origins. The
large
land owners had a little word with Mickey and said leave the 1947 T&C
planning act alone as it keeps us in clover and we help fund the parties
propaganda machine. The Church of England probably said something
similar
as they rely on rents to run the church. The Catholic doesn't, it funds
its
church through its own fund raising not ripping people off in taking
rents.

Blair is the only PM in modern history that is seriously tackling
constitutional change. He has to stay. The banana republic has to go.

In order to set up Tony's fiefdom instead? Or perhaps it should be
Fyffedom?

LOL


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Hi


Several points in one... (several contributors)

I can't believe any would say that. We deal in kilos, so I want to
see
kilos. Do you go into a shop and see a product marked up in pesos?
No you
don't because we use £s.

In fact in Britain we deal in pounds and kilos, and have done for a
very long time. Pounds are one of our standard universal measures.
Britain has used pounds for a _very_ long time, and still does, very
widely.


The said idiot in Sunderland could have displayed pounds, but the law
said
he should also show kilos as that is our official metric.

Official being the word (meaning 'of office'). Our real world standard
measures of weight are kilos and pounds, but our officialdom seems to
have become estranged from that somehow. There is no moral superiority
in kilos over pounds, and local government should not be attempting to
enforce something that simply has no value. In truth his selling in
pounds was (in itself) a non issue.

The _real_ idiot in Sunderland should not have wasted public money and
time, and destroyed the local governments credibility by prosecuting
the market trader who was going about his normal honest and decent
business.

Government relies on public goodwill to work, and if they start
playing that kind of game round here the goodwill's gonna evaporate
quickly. Then when they ask for the public's assistance they get told
where to...

Unfortunately this has happened in several areas with the police, and
the result is high crime in some places, because the public simply
wont co-operate there. Government bodies need to remember what theyre
there for, because public goodwill does matter. It matters because
when that goes, everyone suffers.


Also whats to stop someone doing some work in 2005 and if/when asked
about
certification saying it was completed in 2003 before the regulations?

Changing cable insulation colours, from red/black to blue/brown.



I agree that on a bog standard installation any chimp could do it -
the
difference is knowing which is a bog standard and which isn't - and
why.
When I took the 16th edition one of the questions required you to
work out
the size of an earth conductor. The answer appeared to be a
rediculous size
but when you factored in the losses / grouping / temperature etc. you
could
see why it was necessary. How many unqualified diy'ers would have
fitted the
correct size?

This isnt a serious safety issue. A 1mm2 CPC is sufficient to pop any
RCD (or lighting ring wire fuse), even when uncompliant with regs.
You're confusing regs with the sort of safety level that is necessary
in private dwellings.

To assess the relevance of different measures one has to look at the
consequences of not carrying them out: a smaller than regs CPC will
still work effectively.


Dont forget what we see is only the beginning. Obviously they're not
introducing all the control at once.


Regards, NT

have the weight marked in pounds but not kilos.

Many Americans wouldn't wear seatbelts since it was an intrusion on their
liberty. So airbags arrived. And you're now paying for their stupidity.

Anti airbag fan by any chance? Don't forget that Volvo were slammed by the
safety experts for 3 point seatbelts.

Adam

"Jaime" wrote in message ...


I though it seemed like a industry protectionist thing, what's to stop me
just joining the trade organisation or do they have requirements?

The person who started this thread said that this option was barred to
him. As he has C&G in the current regs (FWIW) there must be some
other qualification that is required that can't just be bought (using the
word somewhat loosely).

tim


Also what
about other trade organisations, perhaps connected perhaps not - could a
Plummer do electrical work or a gas fitter etc..

Jaime

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Ed Sirett wrote:
tim wrote:


The rules are full of holes, un-enforcable and potentially create more
problems than they solve.



As the OP stated the situation would be worse than for gas fitting,
frankly it will be unenforceable.

And is more likely to cause deaths I would expect. Where in the past
someone may have thought "I will install these five new sockets on a new
ring" they may now be tempted to add them as spurs to existing wiring
since that would be a "permitted" change that would not need
certification. Hence it is encouring people to make changes in way that
is less safe just so as to have them classed as minor and hence avoid
certification problems.

This is one option, the even worse one is that now that major works
will only be allowed by 'qualified' people their hourly rate will go
up and they will be disinclined to do micky-mouse jobs,k which will
result in unqualified people doing it themselves.

Tim




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:57:41 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Blair is the only PM in modern history that is seriously tackling
constitutional change. He has to stay.

Selling us down the river more like.

I guess you might be relatively young, at an age where you don't need
to worry about your pension yet. I hope your words of support come
back to haunt you in the years ahead when you realise that your old
age is going to be spent in hopeless poverty, with an NHS system that
has not improved one iota.

Don't read that wrong - I fully support the NHS and recognise it has
to be funded from the public purse. However throwing money at problems
has never worked and will never work. The UK population hasn't quite
woken up to that fact yet because the Labour spin machine is still
doing an admirable job.

Andrew

Do you need a handyman service? Check out our
web site at http://www.handymac.co.uk

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:04:47 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I agree that on a bog standard installation any chimp could do it - the
difference is knowing which is a bog standard and which isn't - and why.
When I took the 16th edition one of the questions required you to work out
the size of an earth conductor. The answer appeared to be a rediculous
size
but when you factored in the losses / grouping / temperature etc. you
could
see why it was necessary. How many unqualified diy'ers would have fitted
the
correct size?

Most DIYers would know that the earth cable is always the largest


Er no. In standard T/E cable the earth conductor is smaller than the
other two.....

Sorry Andy - the master has spoken
--
geoff

In article , says...

Blair is the only PM in modern history that is seriously tackling
constitutional change. He has to stay. The banana republic has to go.


The only constitutional change Bliar is interested in is that which gives
him more power. I agree that the banana republic has to go, but as it is
inextricably linked with My Little Tony, he has to go with it.

"Gary Cavie" wrote in message
...
In article , says...

Blair is the only PM in modern history that is seriously tackling
constitutional change. He has to stay. The banana republic has to go.

The only constitutional change Bliar is interested in is that which gives
him more power. I agree that the banana republic has to go, but as it is
inextricably linked with My Little Tony, he has to go with it.

You are in Tecky land like the others here. Constitutional change: House of
Lords (a big one), the Lord Chancellor, and much, much more.

What part of Little Middle England do you come from?


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"Gary Cavie" wrote in message
. ..
In article , says...

"Gary Cavie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Blair is the only PM in modern history that is seriously tackling
constitutional change. He has to stay. The banana republic has to
go.

The only constitutional change Bliar is interested in is that which
gives
him more power. I agree that the banana republic has to go, but as it
is
inextricably linked with My Little Tony, he has to go with it.

You are in Tecky land like the others here. Constitutional change: House
of
Lords (a big one), the Lord Chancellor, and much, much more.

What part of Little Middle England do you come from?


Tecky Land? Where would that be then? As for Little Middle England -
sorry, haven't a clue what you mean there - I'm a working man - the sort
that Labour are supposed to be rooted with, yet I feel I got a much
better deal under the Conservative Gov.

Delusion. You are never better with the Tories when a working man. Never.
Look at what the party is about.



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In message , IMM
writes

"Gary Cavie" wrote in message
m...
In article , says...

Blair is the only PM in modern history that is seriously tackling
constitutional change. He has to stay. The banana republic has to go.

The only constitutional change Bliar is interested in is that which gives
him more power. I agree that the banana republic has to go, but as it is
inextricably linked with My Little Tony, he has to go with it.

You are in Tecky land like the others here. Constitutional change: House of
Lords (a big one),

You left out the word "****-up"

the Lord Chancellor, and much, much more.

What part of Little Middle England do you come from?


---
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Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003



--
geoff

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM
writes

"Gary Cavie" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
says...

Blair is the only PM in modern history that is seriously tackling
constitutional change. He has to stay. The banana republic has to
go.

The only constitutional change Bliar is interested in is that which
gives
him more power. I agree that the banana republic has to go, but as it
is
inextricably linked with My Little Tony, he has to go with it.

You are in Tecky land like the others here. Constitutional change: House
of
Lords (a big one),

You left out the word "****-up"

You are right! The House of Lords was ****-up.


---
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"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:04:47 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I agree that on a bog standard installation any chimp could do it -
the
difference is knowing which is a bog standard and which isn't - and
why.
When I took the 16th edition one of the questions required you to work
out
the size of an earth conductor. The answer appeared to be a rediculous
size
but when you factored in the losses / grouping / temperature etc. you
could
see why it was necessary. How many unqualified diy'ers would have
fitted
the
correct size?

Most DIYers would know that the earth cable is always the largest


Er no. In standard T/E cable the earth conductor is smaller than the
other two.....

Sorry Andy - the master has spoken

Tell him geoff.


---
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