Hello
I've just bought my first flat and wanted to ask several things that
I'm not familiar at all - i did buy some DIY books but afraid to do any
of the work at the moment before i know for sure what I'm doing is ok
and not going to cause any permanent damage - also wanted to ask you
experienced guys before i pay a plumber

question 1) We have a boiler, hot water tank, water pump (next to the
boiler), what looks like a valve next to the water pump and a shower
pump

Now my understanding was the water pump gets used to circulate hot
water around the house for central heating, correct?

Well we have no central heating! the only heating we have is a heater
in the bathroom (both main and ensuite) but i was told they may be
connected differently to the radiators and hence why they work. But
even they stop going hot after sometime.

So no central heating - so after reading the DIY books i have, i
checked:
a) the boiler - which comes on when i switch everything on and i can
see the pilot light and i DO get ho****er so that looks ok

b) the water pump - it has 2 settings, high pressure and low pressure.
i think the pump is working but i cant tell for sure since when i touch
it, because its next to the boiler, the vibration is THERE but i cant
tell if its from the boiler or the pump. anyhow, if i change the
settings to low pressure, the water pump seems to quiet down in
vibration a bit so i think its working.

c) valve - i havent checked yet and read that there may be a switch
that only enables HW only and no CH - this could be the cause which i
will check tonight

d) raditors themselves - haven't checked but the pipes to the radiators
itself is cold so i think no water is coming in.

So afterall of the above, i can only think it is either the water pump
or valve.

The boiler does have a timer and a separate 7 day heat immersion timer
(presumbely for CH only?) - both constantly set to ON.

Question 2) In the ensuite - the shower pressure is ok - since that is
coming from the SHOWER PUMP in the airing cupboard and i can hear the
pump working when i turn on the cold tap and hot tap on the basin sink
in the en-suite.

However, in the MAIN bathroom, the cold water tap pressure is LOW - and
i can not hear the pump. its only when i turn the hot water tap on, the
pump seems to kick in and pressure is ok.

Same when i use the taps/shower in the bath of MAIN bathroom

so it looks like the pump is only coming on for HOT water ONLY in the
main bathroom - why is this?

Also, when people talk about shower pump, i thought it only boosts the
shower - but in ou flat, it does for taps as well - is this ok?

question 3)
Shower pump (showermate 1.4bar twin max - working pressure 3.5bar) is
way too noisey in the airing cupboard.

how can i reduce this noise? i read that i can have a box and some
insulating stuff around it - but also read this is not good because the
pump may overheat?

the pump is just sitting on a shelf inside the airing cupboard

----

Sorry for all these questions - but i'm just worried about all this -
and we still need to sort out the rest of the house

details:

boiler - Label says - myson heating, Apollo Fanfare 15/30, 30/50 and
40Si. it has this old looking timer program underneath it which only
has a clock, settins for CONSTANT, OFF and Timer.

Another programmer that is wired into the clock timer above - label
says "Kingshield 7 day immersion heater timer T23B0H" - but no manual
etc so i cant program it - and i;m not even sure if it is doing
anything - it is on.

Hot water cylinder also has thermostat - which i have it set to 70??

thanks
Kiich

thanks
Kiich

In article .com,
kiich wrote:
The boiler does have a timer and a separate 7 day heat immersion timer
(presumbely for CH only?) - both constantly set to ON.

The separate immersion heater should be set to off - it's only really a
backup in case the boiler fails.

The boiler programmer should have settings for heating and hot water. Are
you sure the heating one is on? What make is it?

--
*Reality is the illusion that occurs due to the lack of alcohol *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Hi

thanks for your prompt reply.

The separate immersion heater should be set to off - it's only really a
backup in case the boiler fails.

OK - so do you mean OFF as in powered off OR use the over-ride switch
(which is a button on the immersion heater timer with a a icon of a
hand) to set it to OFF (which it says is OFF when a [O] icon is on
display) ?

The boiler programmer should have settings for heating and hot water. Are
you sure the heating one is on? What make is it?

the boiler program has 3 settings that i slide to set:

CONSTANT (or something like that) --- OFF --- TIMER

I have it set to CONSTANT

It then has 3 icons underneath it - one for central heating only
(because it looks like radiator), second one for both HW and CH, third
for HW only.

I have it on BOTH CH and HW.

So Heating one is on. the make I'm not sure - something like suvic? i
will check and post tomorrow.

what is strange is - if i set the boiler programmer to HW only, the
boiler comes on, if i set it to CH and HW both, the boiler comes on,
but if i set it to HW only, the boiler doesnt do anything.

that does that mean it thinks the temperature settings is too low? i
have set every single themorstat in the house to the MAX temperature
settins (room thermostat, hot water tank/cylinder thermostat)

there is also a clock on the boiler programmer and a knob that i can
turn which changes a little icon next to it to red or not red - this is
for the on/off when the program is in timer setting it seems.

thanks
Kiichi

hi again

typo in my post:

what is strange is - if i set the boiler programmer to HW only, the
boiler comes on, if i set it to CH and HW both, the boiler comes on,
but if i set it to HW only, the boiler doesnt do anything.

the last part should have said:

but if i set it to CH only, the boiler doesnt do anything.

thanks
Kiichi

kiich wrote:

question 1) We have a boiler, hot water tank, water pump (next to the
boiler), what looks like a valve next to the water pump and a shower
pump

How many pipes connect to this valve? (two or three would be the common
options).

Now my understanding was the water pump gets used to circulate hot
water around the house for central heating, correct?

It pumps water round a heating circuit that runs from the boiler,
through something and then back to the boiler. The something will
usually be some combination of your heating circuit (i.e. the
radiators), and/or your hot water circuit.

Have a look at your hot water cylinder; how many pipes do you see in and
out? There will usually be a cold feed into the bottom of it (typically
coming from a cold water tank in the loft), and a hot water feed out of
the very top of it. You would also expect to see a couple of pipes that
connect to the side of the cylinder. These will usually be the flow and
return from the heating circuit. The connect to a heat exchanger coil in
the tank, so they have no direct connection to the water in the tank -
but by pushing hot water through them you in turn cause the water in the
tank to heat up.

Well we have no central heating! the only heating we have is a heater
in the bathroom (both main and ensuite) but i was told they may be
connected differently to the radiators and hence why they work. But
even they stop going hot after sometime.

Typically a complete system will be "zoned" in some way. A very simple
system is what they call a "Y Plan" configuration. Here the hot water
generated by the boiler is fed first to a three port valve, and from
there it can go either to the radiators via one outlet, or to the hot
water cylinder via the other. Sometimes half and half if it is the right
kind of valve (known as a mid position valve). Which output is selected
on the valve will usually be controlled by the the room thermostat, the
cylinder thermostat, and typically a programmer of some sort. So to get
the heating to run you may need to set the programmer to allow it, and
also have the room thermostat set high enough so that it is "calling for
heat".

The reason that your bathroom radiators work may be that they have been
installed on the non zoned part of the heating circuit. In this way they
will get hot whenecer the boiler is running - be it for heating the
radiators or the hot water cylinder. This is ofen done in bathrooms to
ensure that heated towel rails etc. remain heated even during the summer
when most people have the heating turned off.

So no central heating - so after reading the DIY books i have, i
checked:
a) the boiler - which comes on when i switch everything on and i can
see the pilot light and i DO get ho****er so that looks ok

OK. Depending on the type of vales used on your system, and the
programmer you may or may not be able to have hot water heating at the
same time as heating. It is not unusual to have the hot water heating
take priority. So once it is up to temperature the system will revet to
heating assuming the room stat and the programmer are allowing it.

b) the water pump - it has 2 settings, high pressure and low pressure.
i think the pump is working but i cant tell for sure since when i touch
it, because its next to the boiler, the vibration is THERE but i cant
tell if its from the boiler or the pump. anyhow, if i change the
settings to low pressure, the water pump seems to quiet down in
vibration a bit so i think its working.

If it were not working the boiler would very quickly shut down with an
overheat fault detected.

c) valve - i havent checked yet and read that there may be a switch
that only enables HW only and no CH - this could be the cause which i
will check tonight

Again depends on the type of valve. Many have controls that enable them
to be manually set in the absense of any external control (or a failure
of the electronics/motor in the valve)

d) raditors themselves - haven't checked but the pipes to the radiators
itself is cold so i think no water is coming in.

What type of valves are on the radiators? One end will be a lockshield
valve (i.e. one that may need a tool to adjust and will often have a
blanking cap over it). The other may be a manual valve that works just
like a tap, or it may be an automatic thermostatic valve. Again in warm
weather the thermostatic valve may refuse to operate if it thinks the
room is already warm enough.

So afterall of the above, i can only think it is either the water pump
or valve.

More likely to be down to control settings I would guess - the
thermostats and the controller. Possibly the thermostatic rad valves
(TRVs) if you have them.

The boiler does have a timer and a separate 7 day heat immersion timer
(presumbely for CH only?) - both constantly set to ON.

Is this timer connected to the boiler? Does your cylinder have a
immersion heater? (the top of which would normally be visible sticking
out the cylinder - it would also have to have wires connecting to it).

If it turns out that you don't actually have an immersion heater, it is
possible that someone used a time switch designed for controlling one
just as a way of providing a time switch facility to the boiler.

Question 2) In the ensuite - the shower pressure is ok - since that is
coming from the SHOWER PUMP in the airing cupboard and i can hear the
pump working when i turn on the cold tap and hot tap on the basin sink
in the en-suite.

OK...

However, in the MAIN bathroom, the cold water tap pressure is LOW - and
i can not hear the pump. its only when i turn the hot water tap on, the
pump seems to kick in and pressure is ok.

Same when i use the taps/shower in the bath of MAIN bathroom

so it looks like the pump is only coming on for HOT water ONLY in the
main bathroom - why is this?

Are you sure it is the same pump being used for both bathrooms? You may
have another somewhere else.

Also, when people talk about shower pump, i thought it only boosts the
shower - but in ou flat, it does for taps as well - is this ok?

You can actually use them to supply taps as well if you want.

question 3)
Shower pump (showermate 1.4bar twin max - working pressure 3.5bar) is
way too noisey in the airing cupboard.

how can i reduce this noise? i read that i can have a box and some
insulating stuff around it - but also read this is not good because the
pump may overheat?

the pump is just sitting on a shelf inside the airing cupboard

Mounting and baffling are the things to look at - if it is rigidly fixed
then changing to a slightly flexible mount may help reduce noise
transmission through the structure of the building (but may make it
worse through the pipes). If it is flopping about loose then fixing it
down may help! It can be a case of "suck it and see".

Hot water cylinder also has thermostat - which i have it set to 70??

Should be OK... what about a room thermostat?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"kiich" wrote:

c) valve - i havent checked yet and read that there may be a switch
that only enables HW only and no CH - this could be the cause which i
will check tonight

This is almost certainly your problem. This valve should be
operated by your programmer. Make sure electrical power is
switched on to both and check fuses.

Same when i use the taps/shower in the bath of MAIN bathroom

so it looks like the pump is only coming on for HOT water ONLY in the
main bathroom - why is this?

Being a flat it means the feed to the copper cylinder cannot be
mounted high enough to supply sufficient HW pressure. Cold water
comes through at mains pressure. So the pump boosts pressure for
the entire HW system while acting as a power shower.

Also, when people talk about shower pump, i thought it only boosts the
shower - but in ou flat, it does for taps as well - is this ok?

Yes. Just means the shower pressure will drop if someone turns on
a HW tap.

question 3)
Shower pump (showermate 1.4bar twin max - working pressure 3.5bar) is
way too noisey in the airing cupboard.

how can i reduce this noise? i read that i can have a box and some
insulating stuff around it - but also read this is not good because the
pump may overheat?

the pump is just sitting on a shelf inside the airing cupboard

Slide something padded under the pump. Foam, cardboard, rubber,
anything that reduces transmission of the pump's vibes.

riccip

Hi John - thanks for the reply.

to most of your reply, i will need to check them out tonight at home
should have taken a day off work if i knew i was going to get this many
replies!

How many pipes connect to this valve? (two or three would be the common
options).

kiichi i think it was 2 - but will check tonight

Have a look at your hot water cylinder; how many pipes do you see in and
out?

kiichi will check tonight as well


Which output is selected
on the valve will usually be controlled by the the room thermostat, the
cylinder thermostat, and typically a programmer of some sort. So to get
the heating to run you may need to set the programmer to allow it, and
also have the room thermostat set high enough so that it is "calling for
heat".

OK - i do have the following settings:
1) room thermostat - set to 25 - its highest. i can only find 1 in the
flat which is what i expect/
2) cylinder thermostat - set it to 70; highest is 90 (or around there)
3) programmer - boiler programmer set to CONSTANT; heather immersion
timer set to ON with the over-ride switch, but this i was told by
Dave(see previous reply) that is a backup - but if so, why is it there?

This is ofen done in bathrooms to
ensure that heated towel rails etc. remain heated even during the summer when most people have the heating turned off.

Kiichi that is exactly what happens - it is actually a towel rail i
think but a big one so i thought it was a heater of some sort. so when
boiler comes on, it gets hot - it eventually stops getting hot and the
boiler also is off at the same time.

OK. Depending on the type of vales used on your system, and the
programmer you may or may not be able to have hot water heating at the
same time as heating. It is not unusual to have the hot water heating
take priority. So once it is up to temperature the system will revet to
heating assuming the room stat and the programmer are allowing it.

Kiichi Hmmm - so how do i check that? when you say "valve", you mean
the valve next to the water pump, right? i will get details tonight

If it were not working the boiler would very quickly shut down with an overheat fault detected.

kiichi how quickly? i ask because my boiler does turn off after a
while but thats because i'm not using hot water right?

Again depends on the type of valve. Many have controls that enable them to be manually set in the absense of any external control (or a failure of the electronics/motor in the valve)

Kiichi will check for this tonight. can i just turn this control
using a screw driver or by hand?


What type of valves are on the radiators? One end will be a lockshield valve (i.e. one that may need a tool to adjust and will often have a blanking cap over it). The other may be a manual valve that works just like a tap, or it may be an automatic thermostatic valve. Again in warm weather the thermostatic valve
may refuse to operate if it thinks the
room is already warm enough.

kiichi manual tap - like my tap. i have this opened up all the way.
not an automatic one.

More likely to be down to control settings I would guess - the
thermostats and the controller. Possibly the thermostatic rad valves
(TRVs) if you have them.

no TRV for me i think - all the radiators looks like my dads place ones
which are old.

if it is control settings, why doesnt having all programmers set to
CONSTANT and thermostat to the highest settings make the CH work then?


Is this timer connected to the boiler? Does your cylinder have a
immersion heater? (the top of which would normally be visible sticking out the cylinder - it would also have to have wires connecting to it).

kiichiyou mean the programmer/timer underneath the boiler? if so,
YES.

The 7 day immersion timer/programmer is connected to that one - but
doesnt seem to make any difference whatever settings i make it to do.

If it turns out that you don't actually have an immersion heater, it is
possible that someone used a time switch designed for controlling one just as a way of providing a time switch facility to the boiler.

kiichi
how do i know that i dont have immersion heater? i cant see one in the
flat - so i guess i dont??

if the immersion heater programmer is indeed used as a time switch
facility to the boiler (via the old looking boiler programmer), how
come it doesnt do anything to the boiler when i set it to ON using the
over-ride on the immersion heater timer??

Are you sure it is the same pump being used for both bathrooms? You may have another somewhere else.

kiichi yes. i turn the tap on, go and check the pump and it is
buzzing away.

question 3)
Shower pump (showermate 1.4bar twin max - working pressure 3.5bar) is
way too noisey in the airing cupboard.

how can i reduce this noise? i read that i can have a box and some
insulating stuff around it - but also read this is not good because the
pump may overheat?

the pump is just sitting on a shelf inside the airing cupboard

Mounting and baffling are the things to look at - if it is rigidly
fixed
then changing to a slightly flexible mount may help reduce noise
transmission through the structure of the building (but may make it
worse through the pipes). If it is flopping about loose then fixing it
down may help! It can be a case of "suck it and see".

kiichi
i dont think it is flopping about - just sitting there.
the noise isnt just from the vibration - it is also from the pump
itself (if you know what i mean) but i will try and put some rubber etc
under neath it

if i do that, can i do it without do anything to the pipes coming into
the shower pump?? would that not damage the pipes??

thanks for all your answers!

This is almost certainly your problem. This valve should be
operated by your programmer. Make sure electrical power is
switched on to both and check fuses.

By which programmer though? the programmer underneath the boiler OR the
7 day immersion heater one? or both?

i do remember seeing a cable going into the valve from the boiler
programmer though.

when you electrical power to BOTH - you mean the boiler programmer AND
7 day immersion heater programmer right? if so, i see lights coming on
for both so power must be good??

Same when i use the taps/shower in the bath of MAIN bathroom
so it looks like the pump is only coming on for HOT water ONLY in the
main bathroom - why is this?

Being a flat it means the feed to the copper cylinder cannot be
mounted high enough to supply sufficient HW pressure. Cold water
comes through at mains pressure. So the pump boosts pressure for
the entire HW system while acting as a power shower.

but why does the shower pump come on for cold water in the en-suite
ONLY and not for the main bathroom then?

how can i reduce this noise? i read that i can have a box and some
insulating stuff around it - but also read this is not good because the
pump may overheat?

the pump is just sitting on a shelf inside the airing cupboard

Slide something padded under the pump. Foam, cardboard, rubber,
anything that reduces transmission of the pump's vibes.

kiichi
the shower pump is sitting on a wooden shelf and it has 4 pipes (i
think 4 but will check) coming in - if i slide something underneath the
shower pump, would that cause these pipes to break?

thanks!
kiichi

"kiich" wrote:

This is almost certainly your problem. This valve should be
operated by your programmer. Make sure electrical power is
switched on to both and check fuses.

By which programmer though? the programmer underneath the boiler OR the
7 day immersion heater one? or both?

The boiler programmer (CH & HW).

i do remember seeing a cable going into the valve from the boiler
programmer though.

when you electrical power to BOTH - you mean the boiler programmer AND
7 day immersion heater programmer right? if so, i see lights coming on
for both so power must be good??

Sorry no. By BOTH I meant the programmer and the valve. I'm
assuming that the valve is electrically controlled (motorised).
You said above there is a wire going to it. It should look
something like the one at this URL:
http://tinyurl.com/bb7d2

If it does then you should also see a small slide-lever on the
side of the box, attached to the valve, for manual operation. You
could try opening the valve fully using this lever while the
boiler is supplying HW. If your CH comes on then we're closer to
solving the problem.

Being a flat it means the feed to the copper cylinder cannot be
mounted high enough to supply sufficient HW pressure. Cold water
comes through at mains pressure. So the pump boosts pressure for
the entire HW system while acting as a power shower.

but why does the shower pump come on for cold water in the en-suite
ONLY and not for the main bathroom then?

Sorry, yes. I've just reread your post and now understand what
you mean. Without physically seeing it I can't explain why the
pump comes on when you use that particular CW tap, but the pump
can't be supplying cold water to it.

Slide something padded under the pump. Foam, cardboard, rubber,
anything that reduces transmission of the pump's vibes.

kiichi
the shower pump is sitting on a wooden shelf and it has 4 pipes (i
think 4 but will check) coming in - if i slide something underneath the
shower pump, would that cause these pipes to break?

Highly unlikely. There should be more than enogh flexibility to
slide something under there. I was thinking something like a
J-sponge, about a quarter-inch thick.

riccip

kiich wrote:

3) programmer - boiler programmer set to CONSTANT; heather immersion
timer set to ON with the over-ride switch, but this i was told by
Dave(see previous reply) that is a backup - but if so, why is it there?

As per my last post, check to see if you actually have a immersion
heater. If you have, AND this timer box is connected to it - this it is
like Dave said - a backup.

If however it is being used as a timer to drive the boiler and hot water
heating circuit then it may come into play here. If that is the case
then having it demanding heat may take priority over the heating.

This is ofen done in bathrooms to
ensure that heated towel rails etc. remain heated even during the summer when most people have the heating turned off.


Kiichi that is exactly what happens - it is actually a towel rail i
think but a big one so i thought it was a heater of some sort. so when
boiler comes on, it gets hot - it eventually stops getting hot and the
boiler also is off at the same time.

That makes sense - you run some hot water, the cylinder stat calls for
heat and the boiler runs. The towel rail is in the path of this water
being directed to the cylinder and so gets hot. Once the hot water is
back up to temperature the boiler shuts off and the rads cool down. For
the purposes of any further investigation you may find you can ignore
the towel rads since it looks like they are not a part of the actual
heating circuit.

Kiichi Hmmm - so how do i check that? when you say "valve", you mean
the valve next to the water pump, right? i will get details tonight

Yup. There may be others.

Common types for a simple Y plan setup are mid position valves which can
direct water to either port or split it between both equally; or a
simpler diversion valve which can go one way or the other but has no mid
position and hence can do hot water or heating but not both. Hot water
would usually take priority in these cases. Having a look at the number
of wires that connect to it wil be a clue (assuming the label on it does
not say!). You need five for a mid position valve but only three for a
diversion one.

If it were not working the boiler would very quickly shut down with an overheat fault detected.


kiichi how quickly? i ask because my boiler does turn off after a
while but thats because i'm not using hot water right?

Under a minute! With the pump not working it will be pumping kW of heat
into a couple of pints of water in its heat exchanger. That will get
very hot very quickly without any circulation.

For an entertaining account of what happens when this occurs along with
a failure of some other protective bits of the boiler read he

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/humour.html#uninstalling

For more general background read soem of this:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/plumbingpage1.html


Again depends on the type of valve. Many have controls that enable them to be manually set in the absense of any external control (or a failure of the electronics/motor in the valve)


Kiichi will check for this tonight. can i just turn this control
using a screw driver or by hand?

It is usually a leaver that can be moved by hand (assuming the valve has
not siezed)

if it is control settings, why doesnt having all programmers set to
CONSTANT and thermostat to the highest settings make the CH work then?

If your system prioritises hot water over heating and your cylinder stat
is set high enough, you may never reach a position where the demand for
hot water heating is reached and hence the heating does not get a look in.

Is this timer connected to the boiler? Does your cylinder have a
immersion heater? (the top of which would normally be visible sticking out the cylinder - it would also have to have wires connecting to it).


kiichiyou mean the programmer/timer underneath the boiler? if so,
YES.

The 7 day immersion timer/programmer is connected to that one - but
doesnt seem to make any difference whatever settings i make it to do.

This is what makes me susspect it may have nothing to do with an
immersion heater. (if it were just for the immersion then it would not
actually need any connection with the boiler (unless there is some form
of interlock to prevent both operating at once).

kiichi
how do i know that i dont have immersion heater? i cant see one in the
flat - so i guess i dont??

Look at your hot water cylinder... any wires connected to it? if not
then no immersion heater. (also look at your consumer unit - see if
there is a fuse/mcb labelled immersion or something like that).

if the immersion heater programmer is indeed used as a time switch
facility to the boiler (via the old looking boiler programmer), how
come it doesnt do anything to the boiler when i set it to ON using the
over-ride on the immersion heater timer??

When set to on it would enable control of the boiler and pump by the
cylinder stat - you wont be able to force it to run if there is no
demand for heat. Once set to off the cylinder stat ought to be out of
the equation.



Are you sure it is the same pump being used for both bathrooms? You may have another somewhere else.


kiichi yes. i turn the tap on, go and check the pump and it is
buzzing away.

It could be that the twin pump is driving both hot and cold - hot has
been plumber after the pump in both bathrooms, but the cold only plumbed
after the pump to one. (the other may use mains cold)

i dont think it is flopping about - just sitting there.
the noise isnt just from the vibration - it is also from the pump
itself (if you know what i mean) but i will try and put some rubber etc
under neath it

if i do that, can i do it without do anything to the pipes coming into
the shower pump?? would that not damage the pipes??

There will usually be a little "give" in the pipework that will
accommodate a little bit of extra padding. Depends a bit on how it s done.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Hi riccip

By which programmer though? the programmer underneath the boiler OR the
7 day immersion heater one? or both?

The boiler programmer (CH & HW).

kiichi ok - so if the boiler programmer controls the valve, what
exactly is the "7 day immersion heater timer programmer" used for?
to heat up the cylinder??

so if my understanding is correct,

1) the boiler programmer controls when the BOILER should come on for
both HW and CH and also the valve to let water cycle through from the
hot water cylinder to the house for CH

2) the 7 day immersion heater timer controls when to heat up water in
the cylinder tank - so that the water in there can be used to heat up
the CH

so from above, am i right in thinking that both timers settings needs
to be the same?? why not have just 1 controller to do both??

i do remember seeing a cable going into the valve from the boiler
programmer though.

when you electrical power to BOTH - you mean the boiler programmer AND
7 day immersion heater programmer right? if so, i see lights coming on
for both so power must be good??

Sorry no. By BOTH I meant the programmer and the valve. I'm
assuming that the valve is electrically controlled (motorised).
You said above there is a wire going to it. It should look
something like the one at this URL:
http://tinyurl.com/bb7d2

Kiichi
i will check tonight but yes i think thats how it looked - different
make of valve though.

If it does then you should also see a small slide-lever on the
side of the box, attached to the valve, for manual operation. You
could try opening the valve fully using this lever while the
boiler is supplying HW. If your CH comes on then we're closer to
solving the problem.

kiichi i will check for the slide - can i just slide the lever by
force?

if that does work (god please let it work! ;-)) then why would i need
to manually do that?

Being a flat it means the feed to the copper cylinder cannot be
mounted high enough to supply sufficient HW pressure. Cold water
comes through at mains pressure. So the pump boosts pressure for
the entire HW system while acting as a power shower.

but why does the shower pump come on for cold water in the en-suite
ONLY and not for the main bathroom then?

Sorry, yes. I've just reread your post and now understand what
you mean. Without physically seeing it I can't explain why the
pump comes on when you use that particular CW tap, but the pump can't be supplying cold water to it.

Kiichi
so you think cold water is NOT being pumped by the motor?? why would
the cold water in en-suite make the pump to come on then? i thought
that was ok as my cold water pressure is v. low when i turn off the
shower pump.

kiichi
the shower pump is sitting on a wooden shelf and it has 4 pipes (i
think 4 but will check) coming in - if i slide something underneath the
shower pump, would that cause these pipes to break?

Highly unlikely. There should be more than enogh flexibility to
slide something under there. I was thinking something like a
J-sponge, about a quarter-inch thick.

kiichi ok - i will try that this weekend. where can i get j-sponge?
b&q?
thanks

kiichi

In article .com,
kiich wrote:
By which programmer though? the programmer underneath the boiler OR the
7 day immersion heater one? or both?

The boiler programmer (CH & HW).

kiichi ok - so if the boiler programmer controls the valve, what
exactly is the "7 day immersion heater timer programmer" used for?
to heat up the cylinder??

Normally, only if the gas central heating fails.

so if my understanding is correct,

1) the boiler programmer controls when the BOILER should come on for
both HW and CH and also the valve to let water cycle through from the
hot water cylinder to the house for CH

It switches on the boiler if there is a demand. The thermostats in the
room and on the tank control the actuation of the three way valve.

2) the 7 day immersion heater timer controls when to heat up water in
the cylinder tank - so that the water in there can be used to heat up
the CH

No. An immersion only heats the hot water - not the CH.

so from above, am i right in thinking that both timers settings needs
to be the same?? why not have just 1 controller to do both??

Because the immersion is only a standby in case the boiler is out of
action.
And it only heats the water.

--
*When cheese gets it's picture taken, what does it say?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Hey Dave

By which programmer though? the programmer underneath the boiler OR the
7 day immersion heater one? or both?
The boiler programmer (CH & HW).
kiichi ok - so if the boiler programmer controls the valve, what
exactly is the "7 day immersion heater timer programmer" used for?
to heat up the cylinder??

Normally, only if the gas central heating fails.

Kiichi
OK - so if there is no wire connected to the cylinder from the "7 day
immersion heater timer", what is it doing?
it is only a backup if there is a wire coming from the programmer to
the immersion heater, correct?

but i am sure there is only a cable coming from the 7 day immersion
heater timer to the boiler programmer - so how can that heat up the
cylinder when/if the boiler is out?
[...]

2) the 7 day immersion heater timer controls when to heat up water in
the cylinder tank - so that the water in there can be used to heat up
the CH

No. An immersion only heats the hot water - not
the CH.

kiichi
i'm a bit confused now - i thought the water in the cylinder gets used
for central heating (by circulating ho****er from the cylinder to the
radiators) ?

i thought the water in the cylinder was ONLY for central heating? and
the ho****er for taps in kitchen etc gets hot by the boiler which is
heating up waters from main or tank in atic?

so from above, am i right in thinking that both timers settings needs
to be the same?? why not have just 1 controller to do both??

Because the immersion is only a standby in case the boiler is out of
action.
And it only heats the water.

kiichi
so my boiler is heating up both the hot water for my shower/kitchen etc
AS WELL AS the hot water for the central heating radiators?

sorry for all these fundamental questions...
kiichi

"kiich" wrote:

Hi riccip

By which programmer though? the programmer underneath the boiler OR the
7 day immersion heater one? or both?

The boiler programmer (CH & HW).

kiichi ok - so if the boiler programmer controls the valve, what
exactly is the "7 day immersion heater timer programmer" used for?
to heat up the cylinder??

See below...

so if my understanding is correct,

1) the boiler programmer controls when the BOILER should come on for
both HW and CH and also the valve to let water cycle through from the
hot water cylinder to the house for CH

2) the 7 day immersion heater timer controls when to heat up water in
the cylinder tank - so that the water in there can be used to heat up
the CH

so from above, am i right in thinking that both timers settings needs
to be the same?? why not have just 1 controller to do both??

Your copper cylinder has two ways of heating your HW to the tap.
It has an electrical immersion heater controlled by the 7-day
immersion timer AND a coiled pipe to/from your boiler. The two
are independent of each other.

Normally you would only use the electrical immersion heater to
boost the water heating early in the morning or before filling a
bath. It's expensive to use unless you have cheaper night-time
electricity, in which case you'd set the timer to heat it at
night. Also during the summer when you don't use your CH it can
be cheaper to turn the boiler off and just heat the water by
electricity.

If that doesn't explain it please feel free to ask more
questions.

assuming that the valve is electrically controlled (motorised).
You said above there is a wire going to it. It should look
something like the one at this URL:
http://tinyurl.com/bb7d2

Kiichi
i will check tonight but yes i think thats how it looked - different
make of valve though.

It doesn't matter about the make coz they're all basically the
same. Yours is probably more like the first image he
http://tinyurl.com/8gn9k

kiichi i will check for the slide - can i just slide the lever by
force?

Yes. Look at the second picture and you can see the lever. It
will feel quite stiff because as you slide it along it manually
spins a small motor inside. Pull it all the way as far as it can
go then push it up and it will hook into a small recess to hold
it open, otherwise it will slowly spring back. If your boiler is
on then you should get both CH and HW.

if that does work (god please let it work! ;-)) then why would i need
to manually do that?

To test the valve and help find the problem. It's possible the
small motor has gone inside the valve. Unlikely though.

Kiichi
so you think cold water is NOT being pumped by the motor?? why would
the cold water in en-suite make the pump to come on then? i thought
that was ok as my cold water pressure is v. low when i turn off the
shower pump.

I really don't know. Perhaps someone else has a suggestion?

Highly unlikely. There should be more than enogh flexibility to
slide something under there. I was thinking something like a
J-sponge, about a quarter-inch thick.

kiichi ok - i will try that this weekend. where can i get j-sponge?
b&q?

Anywhere that sells dishcloths and that sort of thing. It's just
a flat, square dishwashing sponge. Try a piece of corrugated
cardboard first. If that reduces the noise replace it with the
sponge.

riccip

"kiich" wrote:

i'm a bit confused now - i thought the water in the cylinder gets used
for central heating (by circulating ho****er from the cylinder to the
radiators) ?

i thought the water in the cylinder was ONLY for central heating? and
the ho****er for taps in kitchen etc gets hot by the boiler which is
heating up waters from main or tank in atic?

Opposite way round! The water in the cylinder is ONLY for hot
water directly to your taps.

riccip

riccip wrote:

Yes. Look at the second picture and you can see the lever. It
will feel quite stiff because as you slide it along it manually
spins a small motor inside. Pull it all the way as far as it can
go then push it up and it will hook into a small recess to hold
it open, otherwise it will slowly spring back. If your boiler is
on then you should get both CH and HW.

You are assuming it is a mid position valve and hence able to direct
water to both CH and HW circuits. If it is a diversion valve then it
will only do one or the other, never both.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
riccip wrote:
Normally you would only use the electrical immersion heater to
boost the water heating early in the morning or before filling a
bath.

It's a poor boiler that would need this.

It's expensive to use unless you have cheaper night-time
electricity, in which case you'd set the timer to heat it at
night.

Also during the summer when you don't use your CH it can
be cheaper to turn the boiler off and just heat the water by
electricity.

Again, it would be a very inefficient gas boiler/system where full price
electricity would be cheaper. And running the boiler every day for hot
water keeps the pump in good fettle.

--
*The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
riccip wrote:
Normally you would only use the electrical immersion heater to
boost the water heating early in the morning or before filling a
bath.

It's a poor boiler that would need this.

It could be a poor cylinder, and probably is.

snip misinformation

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
riccip wrote:
Normally you would only use the electrical immersion heater to
boost the water heating early in the morning or before filling a
bath.

It's a poor boiler that would need this.

It's reasonable to assume a flat would have a small boiler,
otherwise it depends on the household demand for hot water. On
cold winter mornings any boiler is best left to heat the house
ASAP if "Economy 7" electricity (or it's equivalent) is
available.

It's expensive to use unless you have cheaper night-time
electricity, in which case you'd set the timer to heat it at
night.

Also during the summer when you don't use your CH it can
be cheaper to turn the boiler off and just heat the water by
electricity.

Again, it would be a very inefficient gas boiler/system where full price
electricity would be cheaper. And running the boiler every day for hot
water keeps the pump in good fettle.

Which is why I said "cheaper night-time electricity". However in
the summer there is no more expensive way to heat water than
leaving a conventional boiler cycling over the HW system alone,
unless you mean combi-boilers?

riccip

Morning all.

First, thanks for all your help and advise so far - most useful. I was
up till 2am looking at the boiler, pipes etc just to work out how the
heck all this work!

anyways, here are the answers i promised to give - i still haven't got
CH yet but i havent done anything to the valve yet as i only switched
the whole thing off this morning - so i'm hoping when i get back today,
everything will be cooled down etc which is what i read to do before
any work??


How many pipes connect to this valve? (two or three would be the common
options).

kiichi this turned out to be 3

from the valve:
1 pipe connected to another pipe which connects to the water pump,
boiler and cylinder
1 pipe connected to the cylinder directly (labled hot water port B)
1 pipe going down to the floor labled central heating port A

the valve is SUNVIC SD 1752 and has a label titled UNISHARE.
how do i know that this is 2 or 3 port valve though?

i haven't opened up the plastic case yet - because i was scared it
might cause damage or water might come out - should i worry about these
things?

Have a look at your hot water cylinder; how many pipes do you see in and
out?

kiichi
to the cylinder , there are 4 pipes - can someone tell me what each
might be doing??

1 pipe from the ceiling to the top of cylinder
1 pipe from the ceiling to the bottom of the cylinder
1 pipe from valve
1 pipe from boiler

the cylinder says it is a indirect cylinder

Is this timer connected to the boiler? Does your cylinder have a
immersion heater? (the top of which would normally be visible sticking out the cylinder - it would also have to have wires connecting to it).

kiichi
the 7 day immersion heater timer was indeed connected to the top of
cylinder - so i think i can say that this is for the backup only right?
and can have it set to "PERMANENTLY OFF" setting??

things i noticed:

the pipe coming out of the valve out of the "hot water" port is HOT
the pipe coming out of the valve out of the "central heating" port is
warm/cold as it gets to the floor

That kind of indicates to me that there is no hot water going towards
the radiators, right? Or does the pipes for CH not get that hot??

as i said i havent opened up the valve (the white plastic on the valve)
because i was too scared to do it myself and cause damage but i can
do it myself right without getting a plumber in?

all power to the valve, boiler and everything else in the airing
cupboard is OFF before i do this.

thanks
Kiichi

hi again

just to add to my post above,
the Valve does not seem to have any lever,switch or any thing that
resembles something that i can manually "turn" from outside - does that
mean i need to open up the plastic white casing and would i find a
lever inside then?
kiichi

hi again

here's a ASCI diagram of the "cables" in the airing cupboard
i will do one for pipes as well later
the only power supply cable i can see is:

one from fuse to boiler timer
one from fuse to another power socket for shower pump

how does the boiler get power electrical wise? or does it at all?? via
the cable from boiler timer?

--------------------------------
| |
fuse 7 day-immersion-timer powersocket
-- -- --
| | | | | |---[shower pump]
-- -- --
| |
| ---------------------------
| |
| -------------- |
-----| boiler timer |---[pump] |
---| |---[valve] |
| -------------- |
| | | ----cylinder----
| | | | |
| [boiler] ---------------------|-[thermostat] |
| | |
| ----------------
| something i cant figure out
| round object
| ---
-- | |---[into wall]
---


whats the round object that i cant figure out??? cant be power as thats
coming from the main power socket withte fuse right?

i haven't opened the round object yet - could it be the line from the
room thermostat??

hope the diagram comes out ok!
thanks
Kiichi

well that didnt work at all

how can i insert a diagram in google groups? cant do image as im on a
unix box without any image app!

kiichi

kiich wrote:
well that didnt work at all

It worked for me :-)

how can i insert a diagram in google groups? cant do image as im on a
unix box without any image app!

Can't do images anyway as they're prohibited on uk.* newsgroups and many
newsservers will delete them (or delete the posting containing them)
automatically.

Will leave the heating explanations to others :-)

Owain

On 8 Jul 2005 04:00:03 -0700, kiich wrote:

well that didnt work at all

Looked fine to me. If viewing in google via the web it probably uses a
proptional font which fups up ASCII art.

How does the boiler get power electrical wise?

Via the timer it will control the boiler, pump and valve. Though the
valve and stats well have their say as well of course...

whats the round object that i cant figure out???

Deescribe it a bit better. Like you say it might be connection to the
room stat.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article .com,
kiich wrote:
well that didnt work at all

how can i insert a diagram in google groups? cant do image as im on a
unix box without any image app!

It came out fine here. You just need to use the correct font to view it.

--
*One of us is thinking about sex... OK, it's me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article .com,
kiich wrote:
whats the round object that i cant figure out??? cant be power as thats
coming from the main power socket withte fuse right?

i haven't opened the round object yet - could it be the line from the
room thermostat??

Likely.

With the system all switched on - ie heating and hot water - turning down
the cylinder stat (you should hear it click) while the room one is higher
than ambient temp should force the motorised valve to the heating
position, and you should hear this happening.

They're normally wired for hot water priority, so if both stats are
calling for heat, the water one wins.

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave - thanks for the reply.

With the system all switched on - ie heating and hot water - turning down the cylinder stat (you should hear it click) while the room one is higher
than ambient temp should force the motorised valve to the heating position, and you should hear this happening.

ok - here is my steps:

1) set the boiler program to be for both HW and CH
2) boiler comes on
3) turn down the thermostat on the cylinder - i hear that "click"
4) boiler turns OFF

Room one - you mean any room in the flat? well all the room are pretty
cold (since no CH is coming on!)

after step 4), then thats it for me - nothing else seems to happen.

why would having room one higher than ambient temp 'force' the
motorised valve to the heating position?

wouldnt that happen when the room temp is lower than my room thermostat
settings? i.e. LOWER than ambient temp?

They're normally wired for hot water priority, so if both stats are
calling for heat, the water one wins.

'They' as in the valve right?

so can i unscrew the screws on the valve and take off the cream plastic
casing to look inside without killing myself?

So if the hot water works, this means (please confirm someone)

a) Water pump is working
b) Valve is working for hot water

correct? Should the water pump and the valve making some
noise/vibration when everything is working? its hard to tell from mine
- when boiler comes on, the pump does seem to be vibrating and so does
the valve - but its so little vibration, i'm not sure if it is the
boiler's vibration filtering on to them (since they are so close to
each other) ?

thanks
Kiichi

In article .com,
kiich wrote:
With the system all switched on - ie heating and hot water - turning
down the cylinder stat (you should hear it click) while the room one
is higher than ambient temp should force the motorised valve to the
heating position, and you should hear this happening.

ok - here is my steps:

1) set the boiler program to be for both HW and CH 2) boiler comes on 3)
turn down the thermostat on the cylinder - i hear that "click" 4) boiler
turns OFF

Room one - you mean any room in the flat? well all the room are pretty
cold (since no CH is coming on!)

Ah. I was assuming somewhere in the flat there is a thermostat that sets
the overall temp, and TRVs in the rooms trim that. Commonly in the hallway.
Or have *all* rads got TRVs?

after step 4), then thats it for me - nothing else seems to happen.

why would having room one higher than ambient temp 'force' the motorised
valve to the heating position?

Only if you have a room stat somewhere - which is what your wiring diagram
suggests.

--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

hi

here's the PIPE diagram as promised

to from to top of to bottom of
pump ceiling cylinder cylinder
1| 2| 3| 4| 5|
| | | | |
| - - | |
| | | connect| |
| -----------------[| |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
------- | | ********** |
| shower|| | * cylinder *|
| pump || | * *|
------- | | * *|
| | | | -----* *|
| | | | | ********** |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | ---
| | | | | ---------------[to wall]
| | | | | | |
| | | | | | -------------
| | | | | | |
| | | | | [joint]----- |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | [boiler] [pump] |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |--[valve]
| | | | ------ | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | @
| | | | |
| | | | |
[ --- FLOOR --- ]

hope that comes ok and makes sense to someone!


thanks
Kiichi

hi

here's the PIPE diagram as promised

to from to top of to bottom of [to wall]
pump ceiling cylinder cylinder ----------
1| 2| 3| 4| 5| |
| | | | | ------[joint]
| - - | | | |
| | | connect| | | ********
| -----------------[| | | * boiler *
| | | | | | @ [pump] * *
| | | | | | | | * *
------- | | ********** | | | ********
| shower|| | * cylinder *------[valve]--| |
| pump || | * * | | | |
------- | | * * | | | |
| | | | * *-- | | |
| | | | ********** | | |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | ----------------------------
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
[ --- FLOOR --- ]

hope that comes ok and makes sense to someone!

thanks
Kiichi

Dave

Ah. I was assuming somewhere in the flat there is a thermostat that sets the overall temp, and TRVs in the rooms trim that. Commonly in the hallway.
Or have *all* rads got TRVs?

There is 1 thermostat near the living room. apart from that, i cant
find any in the flat.

But there is a thermostat on the cylinder
and i was told there should be another thermostat for the immersion
heater at the top of the cylinder - but i have not had a look at this
one yet.

No TRVs on any of my radiators.

after step 4), then thats it for me - nothing else
seems to happen.
why would having room one higher than ambient temp 'force' the motorised
valve to the heating position?


Only if you have a room stat somewhere - which is what your wiring diagram suggests.

ok - i do have a room stat.
so if 1 room is hotter than the others, the motorised valve should
cause the hot water to go down the 'central heating' pipe??

thanks
kiichi

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
kiich wrote:
whats the round object that i cant figure out??? cant be power as thats
coming from the main power socket withte fuse right?

i haven't opened the round object yet - could it be the line from the
room thermostat??

Likely.

With the system all switched on - ie heating and hot water -

Please do take any notice of this man when it comes to heating. In another
he advocates not servicing boilers for 18 years. He is dangerous.

kiich wrote:

How many pipes connect to this valve? (two or three would be the common
options).


kiichi this turned out to be 3

from the valve:
1 pipe connected to another pipe which connects to the water pump,
boiler and cylinder
1 pipe connected to the cylinder directly (labled hot water port B)
1 pipe going down to the floor labled central heating port A

the valve is SUNVIC SD 1752 and has a label titled UNISHARE.

Looks a bit like?:

http://www.sunvic.co.uk/3pmv.html

I could not find the exact model number of yours on the site, and hence
can't tell if yours is a mid position valve or just a diverter. The
current one seems to be mid position.

how do i know that this is 2 or 3 port valve though?

Count the pipes! - From your description yours is a 3 port. It has one
pipe in and two out. (A 2 port valve is just like a motorised tap - it
can be on or off. The three port can not shut off the flow of water,
only change its path).

i haven't opened up the plastic case yet - because i was scared it
might cause damage or water might come out - should i worry about these
things?

No - they are in two parts. The brass bit at the bottom is the wet part.
It will usually have a small spindle that sticks out of it to control
the position of the tap elements inside it. The box sat on top contains
a motor and some control electronics. The motor turns the tap.

It is not uncommon for motors to fail, or for the taps to seize. You can
usually remove the motor completely and see if you can turn the tap
spindle manually (perhaps with a pair of pliers - it should not take
much force to turn). You may find that if it is seized, it may only be
temporarily - manually turning it may fix the problem.

Have a look at your hot water cylinder; how many pipes do you see in and
out?


kiichi
to the cylinder , there are 4 pipes - can someone tell me what each
might be doing??

1 pipe from the ceiling to the top of cylinder

HW out to the taps in the house...

1 pipe from the ceiling to the bottom of the cylinder

Cold water into the cylinder from a cold water cistern in the loft...

1 pipe from valve

Hot water from boiler in (via 3 port valve)...

1 pipe from boiler

Return pipe to boiler

the cylinder says it is a indirect cylinder

As we suspected then ;-)

Is this timer connected to the boiler? Does your cylinder have a
immersion heater? (the top of which would normally be visible sticking out the cylinder - it would also have to have wires connecting to it).


kiichi
the 7 day immersion heater timer was indeed connected to the top of
cylinder - so i think i can say that this is for the backup only right?
and can have it set to "PERMANENTLY OFF" setting??

So there is no connection between the CH programmer and the time switch
like you thought the other day then?

If so, good - that makes it simple. It looks like this is an ordinary
immersion heater which you can ignore unless your boiler dies of you
feel guilty about having such small electricity bills ;-)

things i noticed:

the pipe coming out of the valve out of the "hot water" port is HOT
the pipe coming out of the valve out of the "central heating" port is
warm/cold as it gets to the floor

That kind of indicates to me that there is no hot water going towards
the radiators, right?

Yup, spot on.

Or does the pipes for CH not get that hot??

Nope, it should get as hot as the pipe going into the valve (or the one
going currently to the cylinder)

as i said i havent opened up the valve (the white plastic on the valve)
because i was too scared to do it myself and cause damage but i can
do it myself right without getting a plumber in?

Yup, you can do it yourself.

all power to the valve, boiler and everything else in the airing
cupboard is OFF before i do this.

Yup - it is usually all fed from the boiler. So if you turn that off at
the wall the rest will be off as well. Note that this does not apply to
the immersion heater which will typically be independent.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

kiich wrote:

just to add to my post above,
the Valve does not seem to have any lever,switch or any thing that
resembles something that i can manually "turn" from outside - does that

Does it have a thumbwheel?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

kiich wrote:

one from fuse to boiler timer
one from fuse to another power socket for shower pump

how does the boiler get power electrical wise? or does it at all?? via
the cable from boiler timer?

All from the timer by the looks of it. Som boilers control the pump and
interface with the stats themselves, yours looks like everything is
being done by the programmer with a single control to tell the boiler
when to do its stuff.


--------------------------------
| |
fuse 7 day-immersion-timer powersocket
-- -- --
| | | | | |---[shower pump]
-- -- --
| |
| ---------------------------
| |
| -------------- |
-----| boiler timer |---[pump] |
---| |---[valve] |
| -------------- |
| | | ----cylinder----
| | | | |
| [boiler] ---------------------|-[thermostat] |
| | |
| ----------------
| something i cant figure out
| round object
| ---
-- | |---[into wall]
---


whats the round object that i cant figure out???

Junction box?

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18802&ts=34483

i haven't opened the round object yet - could it be the line from the
room thermostat??

Pretty likely...

hope the diagram comes out ok!

ok here...

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

Not that i can see. i think it must be pretty old?
because i couldnt see any manual lever/switch etc, i thought i'm not
meant to open it

kiich wrote:

Dave - thanks for the reply.


With the system all switched on - ie heating and hot water - turning down the cylinder stat (you should hear it click) while the room one is higher
than ambient temp should force the motorised valve to the heating position, and you should hear this happening.


ok - here is my steps:

1) set the boiler program to be for both HW and CH
2) boiler comes on
3) turn down the thermostat on the cylinder - i hear that "click"
4) boiler turns OFF

Ah, that sounds to me like the system is not seeing a demand from the
room stat. It may be it is not working correctly, or there is a wiring
fault, or a fault with the programmer, or the programmers settings are
wrong.

Room one - you mean any room in the flat? well all the room are pretty
cold (since no CH is coming on!)

I think he meant "room one" as in *the* room thermostat (as opposed to
the cylinder one)...

after step 4), then thats it for me - nothing else seems to happen.

If it were a fault with the valve, you would expect the boiler to keep
running, but the hot water from the boiler to still get directed to the
HW, rather than being switched to the rads.

why would having room one higher than ambient temp 'force' the
motorised valve to the heating position?

Your room thermostat is a simple device. It either "calls for heat" or
it doesn't. When the room is colder than the setting on the front of the
stat it will call for heat. When the room gets warmer than the setting
on the stat it will stop calling. The idea being that it cycles the
boiler on and off to keep the room temperature at about the setting on
the stat.

wouldnt that happen when the room temp is lower than my room thermostat
settings? i.e. LOWER than ambient temp?

Yes that is what Dave was saying.... just a bit of confusion over room
one ;-)

They're normally wired for hot water priority, so if both stats are
calling for heat, the water one wins.


'They' as in the valve right?

Yup...

If you have a mid position valve, then in response to a demand from
water and heating then it will sit in the mid position - hot water from
the boiler ought to then flow to both rads and cylinder. If it is a
diversion type, then the hot water will probably take priority should
both call at once.

so can i unscrew the screws on the valve and take off the cream plastic
casing to look inside without killing myself?

Without it killing you, yes ;-)

(what you do to yourself is your own business!)

So if the hot water works, this means (please confirm someone)

a) Water pump is working

Yes...

b) Valve is working for hot water

Sort of... if the valve were not working (i.e. failing to switch) it
would still be working for hot water!)

It sounds more like the problem is with demand from the rooms stat though.

What type of stat is it?

Clunky manual:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...22657&ts=35413

or something a bit more digital?

Chances are if it is a manual one then you should hear a click as you
rotate the knob from one end of travel to the other. (the click will
occur at around the point of rotation corresponding to the current room
temperature).

Do you have a multimeter?

If not, go buy one (a simple five quid one from Maplin will do).

With the power off, have a peek at the wiring inside the room stat and
report back. We will tell you where to stick the probes to diagnose what
is going on with the stat ;-)

(the plan here is to prove that the room stat is working, and then trace
back through the system til you find the bit which is not)

correct? Should the water pump and the valve making some
noise/vibration when everything is working? its hard to tell from mine
- when boiler comes on, the pump does seem to be vibrating and so does
the valve - but its so little vibration, i'm not sure if it is the
boiler's vibration filtering on to them (since they are so close to
each other) ?

Nothing wrong with that! Pumps are designed to run quietly with as
little vibration as possible - most folks would rather listen to the
telly than have to listen to their central heating.

The valve will only make a sound (if at all) when moving from one
position to the other.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Looks a bit like?:

http://www.sunvic.co.uk/3pmv.h tml

I could not find the exact model number of yours on the site, and hence
can't tell if yours is a mid position valve or just a diverter. The
current one seems to be mid position.

yeah kind of! i saw that as well - but mine must be an older model as i
do not have the red switch like the on on the web.

So i have to manually open it right?


how do i know that this is 2 or 3 port valve though?

Count the pipes! - From your description yours is a 3 port. It has one
pipe in and two out. (A 2 port valve is just like a motorised tap - it
can be on or off. The three port can not shut off the flow of water,
only change its path).

thanks ;-) i wasnt sure because i have never seen a 2 port valve - but
should have guessed mine is 3 port! thanks.


i haven't opened up the plastic case yet - because i was scared it
might cause damage or water might come out - should i worry about these
things?

No - they are in two parts. The brass bit at the bottom is the wet part.
It will usually have a small spindle that sticks out of it to control
the position of the tap elements inside it. The box sat on top contains
a motor and some control electronics. The motor turns the tap.

It is not uncommon for motors to fail, or for the taps to seize. You can
usually remove the motor completely and see if you can turn the tap
spindle manually (perhaps with a pair of pliers - it should not take
much force to turn). You may find that if it is seized, it may only be
temporarily - manually turning it may fix the problem.


ok - so lets say i take off the cover from the box on top of the brass
- i should be expecting:

a) somekind of know or wheel that indicates what the valve is set
b) these settings a CH, HW and CH/HW - correct? or is CH,HW and
auto?
c) i should be able to turn the know/wheel to CH only and test if i get
CH

and lets say i can take off the motor completely (you mean the box
sitting on the brass right?) and i turn it manually and place it back
on and start again - if i still have no CH, i call a plumber to
replace the valve right?

thanks for the explanation on the pipes into the cylinder as well"


kiichi
the 7 day immersion heater timer was indeed connected to the top of
cylinder - so i think i can say that this is for the backup only right?
and can have it set to "PERMANENTLY OFF" setting??


So there is no connection between the CH programmer and the time switch
like you thought the other day then?

kiichi - when you say CH programmer, you mean the "7 day immersion
heater timer" ?

And "time switch" as in the boiler programmer? sorry to ask a daft one
here...

i had a look last night and i can only see 1 cable coming from the7 day
immersion heater.


If so, good - that makes it simple. It looks like this is an ordinary
immersion heater which you can ignore unless your boiler dies of you
feel guilty about having such small electricity bills ;-)

thanks

the pipe coming out of the valve out of the "hot water" port is HOT
the pipe coming out of the valve out of the "central heating" port is
warm/cold as it gets to the floor

That kind of indicates to me that there is no hot water going towards
the radiators, right?


Yup, spot on.

ok - so the only thing that i can feel by touching the pipes that are
not hot (enough) is one of the pipe coming out of the valve towards
"central heating" - so must be the valve set to HW only?


Or does the pipes for CH not get that hot??

Nope, it should get as hot as the pipe going into the valve (or the one
going currently to the cylinder)


ok - well it isnt.

as i said i havent opened up the valve (the white plastic on the valve)
because i was too scared to do it myself and cause damage but i can
do it myself right without getting a plumber in?

Yup, you can do it yourself.

thanks - wish me luck

all power to the valve, boiler and everything else in the airing
cupboard is OFF before i do this.

Yup - it is usually all fed from the boiler. So if you turn that off at
the wall the rest will be off as well. Note that this does not apply to
the immersion heater which will typically be independent.

that makes sense as when i switch off the power socket that is powering
the boiler (the power socket that has text "fuse" displayed on), the
boiler,boiler programmer, pump, valve and cylinder stops BUT the 7 day
immersion heater stays on!! so the power to that must be independent as
you said.

thanks for all the info - will update tomorrow!
kiichi

kiich wrote:

and i was told there should be another thermostat for the immersion
heater at the top of the cylinder - but i have not had a look at this
one yet.

You may have to take the cap off the heater to see that - it is often a
small screw control with a temperature scale round it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/