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  #1   Report Post  
ChrisJ
 
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Default OT? Ford Fiesta fuel problem?

I'm not sure if this is classed as off topic but as I'm going to fix it
myself (all being well) I thought I'd at least try...

I've got an N reg 1.25 Fiesta Zetec with 80k on the clock. It starts
first time every time and runs fine and smoothly. However I have the
following two problems.

Problem 1.
After starting, although the engine sounds fine its absolutely gutless
and has a real job pulling away up a slight gradient (yes I AM in first
gear and the brake is off). Once its warm its OK. No problems at all.
My only thoughts are that it might be something to do with the auto
choke which is the only thing I can think of that would be so different
with a warm engine to a cold one. This has been going on for about 2
months.

Problem 2.
This started after the service and it didn't happen before the service.
We live in a hilly area and so regularly use engine revs between
4k-6k. Before the service the engine would rev freely into this range.
Now however the engine revs freely (as before) until it hits approx
4100 rpm then its like someone has put the handbrake on and the engine
only accelerates slowly to 6k. Its a real change in acceleration.
Change gear and the engine pulls strongly up to 4k again.
The garage has changed the fuel filter to try to fix this problem.
Their computer said the car was reporting a low fule pressure but they
couldn't work out where.

I'm not sure if either of these is related but any suggestions appreciated.

(inlcuding a more appropriate list/forum of necessary.

ChrisJ
  #2   Report Post  
andrewpreece
 
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Default


"ChrisJ" chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com
wrote in message ...
I'm not sure if this is classed as off topic but as I'm going to fix it
myself (all being well) I thought I'd at least try...

I've got an N reg 1.25 Fiesta Zetec with 80k on the clock. It starts
first time every time and runs fine and smoothly. However I have the
following two problems.

Problem 1.
After starting, although the engine sounds fine its absolutely gutless
and has a real job pulling away up a slight gradient (yes I AM in first
gear and the brake is off). Once its warm its OK. No problems at all.
My only thoughts are that it might be something to do with the auto
choke which is the only thing I can think of that would be so different
with a warm engine to a cold one. This has been going on for about 2
months.

Problem 2.
This started after the service and it didn't happen before the service.
We live in a hilly area and so regularly use engine revs between
4k-6k. Before the service the engine would rev freely into this range.
Now however the engine revs freely (as before) until it hits approx
4100 rpm then its like someone has put the handbrake on and the engine
only accelerates slowly to 6k. Its a real change in acceleration.
Change gear and the engine pulls strongly up to 4k again.
The garage has changed the fuel filter to try to fix this problem.
Their computer said the car was reporting a low fule pressure but they
couldn't work out where.

I'm not sure if either of these is related but any suggestions

appreciated.

(inlcuding a more appropriate list/forum of necessary.

ChrisJ


I've no idea, and cars don't generally feature on this newsgroup. However,
have
you had a look at the spark plugs, to see if they're gapped correctly, and
are the right
colour, i.e. not contaminated. Look at the oil filler cap to to see if you
have a water leak in the block ( cap will look milky inside - a longshot ).
Also, is there a decent spark getting to them? Take one
out and connect its body to the block so it will still spark. Are the leads
OK? Run the
engine up in the dark and see if you can spot electricity arcing to earth
from the leads.
A long shot, but it's good to eliminate the obvious stuff, weak sparks can
make an engine
perform poorly, though it generally doesn't improve. Is your thermostat
working? If it
were stuck open the car might perform poorly from cold.
Has this car got an electronic engine controller? That could also be a prob.
I think you'd
be better off on a more knowledgeable newgroup. Is there a Fiesta Owners
Club? Otherwise
it could be down to you changing over components like the fuel pump etc
until you get lucky.

PS: Try uk.rec.cars.maintenance as a more appropriate newgroup.

Andy.


  #3   Report Post  
Mathew J. Newton
 
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Default

ChrisJ wrote:
I'm not sure if this is classed as off topic but as I'm going to fix it
myself (all being well) I thought I'd at least try...

I've got an N reg 1.25 Fiesta Zetec with 80k on the clock. It starts
first time every time and runs fine and smoothly. However I have the
following two problems.


snip

(inlcuding a more appropriate list/forum of necessary.

ChrisJ


A group in the uk.rec.cars.* hierarchy would be worthwhile.

Best of luck,

Mathew

  #4   Report Post  
dmc
 
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Default

In article ,
ChrisJ chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com wrote:

I've got an N reg 1.25 Fiesta Zetec with 80k on the clock. It starts
first time every time and runs fine and smoothly. However I have the
following two problems.

Problem 1.
After starting, although the engine sounds fine its absolutely gutless
and has a real job pulling away up a slight gradient (yes I AM in first
gear and the brake is off). Once its warm its OK. No problems at all.


Could this be a misfire? We had this problem and apparantly it's quite
common.

[snip]

Problem 2.
This started after the service and it didn't happen before the service.


[snip]

Did you happen to have new spark plugs fitted at this service? If so then
I suspect you have a bad misfire (probably plug lead one from what I
remember). I think this problem got so bad on the mondeos that there was
actually a technical bulletin sent around about it - I *think* the fiesta
Zetec suffers the same way.

Darren

  #5   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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Default

In article ,
ChrisJ chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com
wrote:
Their computer said the car was reporting a low fule pressure but they
couldn't work out where.


That's my bet too. It's fuel injection?

Change the regulator.

Other possibility is a fuel pump on the way out, but a decent garage
should be able to check both pressure and flow.

--
*A backward poet writes inverse.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #6   Report Post  
ChrisJ
 
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Default

dmc wrote:

In article ,
ChrisJ chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com wrote:

I've got an N reg 1.25 Fiesta Zetec with 80k on the clock. It starts
first time every time and runs fine and smoothly. However I have the
following two problems.

Problem 1.
After starting, although the engine sounds fine its absolutely gutless
and has a real job pulling away up a slight gradient (yes I AM in first
gear and the brake is off). Once its warm its OK. No problems at all.



Could this be a misfire? We had this problem and apparantly it's quite
common.

[snip]


Problem 2.
This started after the service and it didn't happen before the service.



[snip]

Did you happen to have new spark plugs fitted at this service? If so then
I suspect you have a bad misfire (probably plug lead one from what I
remember). I think this problem got so bad on the mondeos that there was
actually a technical bulletin sent around about it - I *think* the fiesta
Zetec suffers the same way.

Darren

Yes we did have new sparks. Apparently the HT leads are carbon fibre
rather than metal although I can't remember the reason, something to do
with durability, but they tend to snap!

It runs really smoothly so I don't think its a misfire. It really
doesn't feel or sound any different below 4000rpm.

Chris
  #7   Report Post  
ChrisJ
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
ChrisJ chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com
wrote:

Their computer said the car was reporting a low fule pressure but they
couldn't work out where.



That's my bet too. It's fuel injection?


It is fuel injection.


Change the regulator.

Other possibility is a fuel pump on the way out, but a decent garage
should be able to check both pressure and flow.


The garage said it could be one of many things and they'd be happy to
change them all for us. I was trying to find which was most likely to
minimise costs as I don't want the parts to cost more than the car!

Chris
  #8   Report Post  
Clint Sharp
 
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Default

In message , ChrisJ
chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com writes
Problem 1.
After starting, although the engine sounds fine its absolutely gutless
and has a real job pulling away up a slight gradient (yes I AM in first
gear and the brake is off).

OK, was going to ask......
Once its warm its OK. No problems at all. My only thoughts are that
it might be something to do with the auto choke which is the only thing
I can think of that would be so different with a warm engine to a cold
one.

It won't have an auto choke, it's not got a carburettor. It has warm up
enrichment which is controlled by the temperature sensor and the ECU.
Get someone with a multimeter to check the temperature sensor if you
don't have one yourself. In the region of 5k cold but there are lots of
different types with different values, you basically need to check that
it changes value smoothly as it warms up and doesn't jump. For more
info, you'll have to wait as I don't have the tech data here.
This has been going on for about 2 months.

Get it fixed, if you have a fuelling problem you could be damaging the
catalytic converter which will hurt if you want it to pass another MOT.

Problem 2.
This started after the service and it didn't happen before the service.
We live in a hilly area and so regularly use engine revs between 4k-6k.

**DO NOT TOUCH THE HT LEADS WHILST THE ENGINE IS RUNNING**
This is not a car that uses points and condensor, a shock from a modern
car's ignition system can kill or cause serious injury, at the very
least it will hurt a LOT. After the nasty warning, make sure there are
no dangling cables (I.E. Unplugged or dislodged) and do a waggle test on
the sensor cabling with the engine running (make sure you stay clear of
hot parts, rotating parts and especially hot rotating parts) and see if
the engine note changes or the engine stumbles.
The garage has changed the fuel filter to try to fix this problem.
Their computer said the car was reporting a low fule pressure but they
couldn't work out where.

Find a better garage, if it's got a fuel pressure problem you need a
fuel pressure guage and the know how to use one safely, petrol
pressurised to 60PSI squirting over a hot engine is guaranteed to make
your bum twitch. Seriously, if their computer told them this they should
have been able to find it. I'd be amazed if they actually measured it.

I'm not sure if either of these is related but any suggestions appreciated.

It's possible.

(inlcuding a more appropriate list/forum of necessary.

ChrisJ


--
Clint Sharp
  #9   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
ChrisJ chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com
wrote:
Yes we did have new sparks. Apparently the HT leads are carbon fibre
rather than metal although I can't remember the reason, something to do
with durability, but they tend to snap!


Plug leads haven't been copper for many, many years. They use a fibre
soaked carbon to provide the resistance needed to suppress interference to
both your radio and things like other's TVs, etc.

--
*Could it be that "I do " is the longest sentence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #10   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
ChrisJ chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com
wrote:
The garage said it could be one of many things and they'd be happy to
change them all for us. I was trying to find which was most likely to
minimise costs as I don't want the parts to cost more than the car!


Fuel regulators ain't expensive. Usually. But if they haven't got the
diagnostics to find out which bits are faulty, take it to another one.

--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #11   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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ChrisJ wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
ChrisJ chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com
wrote:

Their computer said the car was reporting a low fule pressure but
they couldn't work out where.




That's my bet too. It's fuel injection?



It is fuel injection.


Change the regulator.

Other possibility is a fuel pump on the way out, but a decent garage
should be able to check both pressure and flow.


The garage said it could be one of many things and they'd be happy to
change them all for us. I was trying to find which was most likely to
minimise costs as I don't want the parts to cost more than the car!


Thats standard with garages and fuel injection.

You need someone who actually knows how to fault find it.

There are garages that have the test equipment.

Thibgs I have had problems with have been temperature sensors and air
flow meters

Tem sensoirs will give problems when hot or cold, but not both usually -
my GF's Pug had a water temp sesnor go high - started and ran, but would
flood and stall when hot.

Airflow meters are often nothing more than a flap that turns a
potentiometer and a light spring to close against air pressure. If its
sticking then full RPM may well not get you full fuel - leading to weak
running at high RPM.

The garage may have adjusted the mixture weak anyway to get CO emissions
down.

See if you can ID te fuel flow meter - generally in the inlet pipework.
A leak in that pipework that by-passes teh meter may alos have bad results.

Check it turns freely, and if you have a resistance meter, check that
the potentiometer is not wormnn out - resistance is erratic etc.


Replacements from scrappies should work.






Chris

  #12   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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Default


"andrewpreece" wrote in message
...

snip
Also, is there a decent spark getting to them? Take one
out and connect its body to the block so it will still spark.


I would just point out that on modern HT systems the above is likely
to damage the ECU / ignition system and lf human fingers etc. get in
the wrong place, possibly kill the said human...

Gone are the days when the test described was advisable without the
correct knowledge and test equipment.


  #13   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
snip

Airflow meters are often nothing more than a flap that turns a
potentiometer and a light spring to close against air pressure. If

its
sticking then full RPM may well not get you full fuel - leading to

weak
running at high RPM.


ECU's also need an induction / ambiant air temp sensor, this can go
out of calibration.


  #14   Report Post  
Ian Stirling
 
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The Natural Philosopher wrote:
snip
You need someone who actually knows how to fault find it.

There are garages that have the test equipment.

Thibgs I have had problems with have been temperature sensors and air
flow meters



What some may find useful is the FAQs at
http://www.megasquirt.info/

While most are probably not up to installing said system, the FAQs on
"how to set it up, and why it works" are excellent.
  #15   Report Post  
Clint Sharp
 
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In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Airflow meters are often nothing more than a flap that turns a
potentiometer and a light spring to close against air pressure.

The Zetec S engine uses a hot wire MAF, no flap, no potentiometer. Do
not prod about in it, you could irreparably damage it.
If its sticking then full RPM may well not get you full fuel - leading
to weak running at high RPM.

Not valid, see above.
The garage may have adjusted the mixture weak anyway to get CO
emissions down.

Not adjustable without using brute force to crush the fuel pressure
regulator so unless they are a real bunch of thugs who enjoy stretching
fuel pressure regulators it's not been 'adjusted'.

See if you can ID te fuel flow meter - generally in the inlet pipework.
A leak in that pipework that by-passes teh meter may alos have bad
results.

What fuel flow meter?
Replacements from scrappies should work.

Providing they've not been rained on with the loom unplugged.






Chris


--
Clint Sharp


  #16   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"andrewpreece" wrote in message
...

snip

Also, is there a decent spark getting to them? Take one
out and connect its body to the block so it will still spark.



I would just point out that on modern HT systems the above is likely
to damage the ECU / ignition system and lf human fingers etc. get in
the wrong place, possibly kill the said human...


Oh mi gwad. **** off Jerry.. You are talking out of your arse again.


Gone are the days when the test described was advisable without the
correct knowledge and test equipment.


Yawn.
  #17   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"andrewpreece" wrote in message
...

snip

Also, is there a decent spark getting to them? Take one
out and connect its body to the block so it will still spark.



I would just point out that on modern HT systems the above is

likely
to damage the ECU / ignition system and lf human fingers etc. get

in
the wrong place, possibly kill the said human...


Oh mi gwad. **** off Jerry.. You are talking out of your arse again.


Just **** off yourself moron, you are nothing but an ignorant little
****wit, a clueless **** and a god dammed useless troll.

YOU ARE SIMPLE WRONG.


  #18   Report Post  
 
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ChrisJ wrote:

Problem 2.
This started after the service and it didn't happen before the service.
We live in a hilly area and so regularly use engine revs between
4k-6k. Before the service the engine would rev freely into this range.
Now however the engine revs freely (as before) until it hits approx
4100 rpm then its like someone has put the handbrake on and the engine
only accelerates slowly to 6k. Its a real change in acceleration.
Change gear and the engine pulls strongly up to 4k again.
The garage has changed the fuel filter to try to fix this problem.
Their computer said the car was reporting a low fule pressure but they
couldn't work out where.

I'm not sure if either of these is related but any suggestions appreciated.

(inlcuding a more appropriate list/forum of necessary.

ChrisJ


If it happened after the service I'd check every single connection and
wire loom. I had a car in the past where some halfwit mechanic had
severed a cable and created an intermittent fault.
As for the garage and their diagnostics, I know some here won't like it
but many garages and their diagnostics are out of their arse. They'll
tell you all sorts of crap about what they checked when they haven't
even made any attempt to look at the problem. They would rather do
straight forward jobs and let you work out the fault by deduction.
I'm not familiar with that engine so beyond that can't help. Regards
the spark plug test that others have discussed, forget modern engines,
I handled a HT lead on an '83 1.2 Astra OHV engine many years ago and
got a shock. Not enough to cause me damage but it still hurt - never
tried that test again!

  #19   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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wrote in message
oups.com...

snip

If it happened after the service I'd check every single connection

and
wire loom. I had a car in the past where some halfwit mechanic had
severed a cable and created an intermittent fault.


I've also seen the same fault after a not so good 'service' by a
halfwit, trouble was it was the owner who was the halfwit and had to
come pleading to a garage to sort out his ****-up.

I have also seen halfwit owners make a perfectly safe braking systems
into a lethal death traps - and cleaned the mess up afterwards when
their car didn't stop...

As for the garage and their diagnostics, I know some here won't like

it
but many garages and their diagnostics are out of their arse.

They'll
tell you all sorts of crap about what they checked when they haven't
even made any attempt to look at the problem. They would rather do
straight forward jobs and let you work out the fault by deduction.
I'm not familiar with that engine so beyond that can't help. Regards
the spark plug test that others have discussed, forget modern

engines,
I handled a HT lead on an '83 1.2 Astra OHV engine many years ago

and
got a shock. Not enough to cause me damage but it still hurt - never
tried that test again!


Yes, and that system is low powered by modern standards.


  #20   Report Post  
Parish
 
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On 20/06/2005 11:25 ChrisJ wrote:

I'm not sure if this is classed as off topic but as I'm going to fix it
myself (all being well) I thought I'd at least try...

I've got an N reg 1.25 Fiesta Zetec with 80k on the clock. It starts


[snip]

Problem 2.
This started after the service and it didn't happen before the service.
We live in a hilly area and so regularly use engine revs between
4k-6k. Before the service the engine would rev freely into this range.
Now however the engine revs freely (as before) until it hits approx
4100 rpm then its like someone has put the handbrake on and the engine
only accelerates slowly to 6k. Its a real change in acceleration.
Change gear and the engine pulls strongly up to 4k again.
The garage has changed the fuel filter to try to fix this problem.
Their computer said the car was reporting a low fule pressure but they
couldn't work out where.


SWMBO has the same model and it developed _exactly_ the same problem.
The cause was a blocked or contaminated MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor.
Total cost, at a Ford main dealer (including the initial diagnostic
check) £200.02 inc VAT.

A Ford dealer will hook the car up to the diagnostic kit and can confirm
this from the error codes - although I'd be surprised if something else
produced _exactly_ the same symptoms.

If you want to take a chance and DIY, the sensor was £51.13+VAT (12
months ago).

The MAF sensor is the cast aluminium bit with wires attached in the
inlet tract between the air filter and the engine. If you want, I'll
take a piccy tomorrow (too dark now).

HTH

Regards,

Parish


  #21   Report Post  
Parish
 
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On 23/06/2005 01:22 Parish wrote:

On 20/06/2005 11:25 ChrisJ wrote:

I'm not sure if this is classed as off topic but as I'm going to fix it
myself (all being well) I thought I'd at least try...

I've got an N reg 1.25 Fiesta Zetec with 80k on the clock. It starts


[snip]

Problem 2.
This started after the service and it didn't happen before the service.
We live in a hilly area and so regularly use engine revs between
4k-6k. Before the service the engine would rev freely into this range.
Now however the engine revs freely (as before) until it hits approx
4100 rpm then its like someone has put the handbrake on and the engine
only accelerates slowly to 6k. Its a real change in acceleration.
Change gear and the engine pulls strongly up to 4k again.
The garage has changed the fuel filter to try to fix this problem.
Their computer said the car was reporting a low fule pressure but they
couldn't work out where.


SWMBO has the same model and it developed _exactly_ the same problem.
The cause was a blocked or contaminated MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor.
Total cost, at a Ford main dealer (including the initial diagnostic
check) £200.02 inc VAT.

A Ford dealer will hook the car up to the diagnostic kit and can confirm
this from the error codes - although I'd be surprised if something else
produced _exactly_ the same symptoms.

If you want to take a chance and DIY, the sensor was £51.13+VAT (12
months ago).

The MAF sensor is the cast aluminium bit with wires attached in the
inlet tract between the air filter and the engine. If you want, I'll
take a piccy tomorrow (too dark now).


Here's the pic http://www.magichamster.com/maf.jpg

Parish
  #22   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Parish" wrote in message
...
snip

SWMBO has the same model and it developed _exactly_ the same

problem.
The cause was a blocked or contaminated MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor.
Total cost, at a Ford main dealer (including the initial diagnostic
check) £200.02 inc VAT.

A Ford dealer will hook the car up to the diagnostic kit and can

confirm
this from the error codes - although I'd be surprised if something

else
produced _exactly_ the same symptoms.


This is the problem, many faults can cause the same or very similar
faults, this is why the dealer checked the fault-code and didn't just
steam-roller into changing the said sensor / component - or are you
suggesting that this would have been the first time the dealer had
come across such a fault ?!
snip

HTH


Not a lot....


  #23   Report Post  
Parish
 
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On 23/06/2005 09:04 :::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Parish" wrote in message
...
snip

SWMBO has the same model and it developed _exactly_ the same

problem.
The cause was a blocked or contaminated MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor.
Total cost, at a Ford main dealer (including the initial diagnostic
check) £200.02 inc VAT.

A Ford dealer will hook the car up to the diagnostic kit and can

confirm
this from the error codes - although I'd be surprised if something

else
produced _exactly_ the same symptoms.


This is the problem, many faults can cause the same or very similar
faults, this is why the dealer checked the fault-code and didn't just
steam-roller into changing the said sensor / component


Indeed, but I get the impression that the OP's garage is not a Ford
dealer with the Ford diagnostic kit and list of the error codes.

- or are you
suggesting that this would have been the first time the dealer had
come across such a fault ?!


No, I got the impression that it was a common(ish) problem.

snip

HTH


Not a lot....



Might help the OP though ;-)

Parish
  #24   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Parish" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/2005 09:04 :::Jerry:::: wrote:

snip

This is the problem, many faults can cause the same or very

similar
faults, this is why the dealer checked the fault-code and didn't

just
steam-roller into changing the said sensor / component


Indeed, but I get the impression that the OP's garage is not a Ford
dealer with the Ford diagnostic kit and list of the error codes.


It would have to be a half-witted back-street garage for them no to
have such diagnostic kit, this equipment is not dealer specific and
the fault codes are available to the trade.


  #25   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Parish wrote:
If you want to take a chance and DIY, the sensor was £51.13+VAT (12
months ago).


Crikey - that's cheap. The older 'flapper' type on mine is over 300 quid.

--
*Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #26   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Parish wrote:
Indeed, but I get the impression that the OP's garage is not a Ford
dealer with the Ford diagnostic kit and list of the error codes.


There are independant makers of code readers, and I'd expect every decent
independant garage to have one.

I've even got one for my private car. ;-)

--
*A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it uses up a thousand times more memory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #27   Report Post  
Parish
 
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On 23/06/2005 11:04 :::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Parish" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/2005 09:04 :::Jerry:::: wrote:

snip

This is the problem, many faults can cause the same or very

similar
faults, this is why the dealer checked the fault-code and didn't

just
steam-roller into changing the said sensor / component


Indeed, but I get the impression that the OP's garage is not a Ford
dealer with the Ford diagnostic kit and list of the error codes.


It would have to be a half-witted back-street garage for them no to
have such diagnostic kit, this equipment is not dealer specific


Really? So if I took the Fiesta, or my Saab, to say a Vauxhall dealer or
(good, competent) independent that they'd be able to hook them up to
their diagnostic kit and extract as much info as the respective main
dealers? I would have thought that the manufacturers would make their
systems (both in the car and the workshop) proprietary in order to
(attempt to) force people to use their dealers.

and
the fault codes are available to the trade.


Again, that surprises me - for the reasons stated above.

BTW, I'm not being sarcastic, I'd be interested to know.

Regards,

Parish

  #29   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Parish wrote:
Really? So if I took the Fiesta, or my Saab, to say a Vauxhall dealer or
(good, competent) independent that they'd be able to hook them up to
their diagnostic kit and extract as much info as the respective main
dealers? I would have thought that the manufacturers would make their
systems (both in the car and the workshop) proprietary in order to
(attempt to) force people to use their dealers.


I'd not necessarily expect a main dealer to have the equipment for other
maker's cars. But an independant should. For a start they can charge for
using it, and it makes diagnostics so much easier.

BTW, in the US - the land of free enterprise - *all* cars have to have a
common diagnostic socket that can be read by just one instrument. Called
OBC, IIRC. It's basically for checking emissions, but any engine fault
will effect those, so it will diagnose pretty well all. Not sure about
auto gearbox codes, though.

and
the fault codes are available to the trade.


Again, that surprises me - for the reasons stated above.


To me it's unfair practice trying to keep such things to themselves. And
it's fairly recent. At one time anyone could buy a maker's workshop manual
for virtually any car - now it's near impossible. So dealers get a licence
to print money - mine is some 110 quid an hour for rubbish service coupled
to shoddy work and downright dishonesty.


BTW, I'm not being sarcastic, I'd be interested to know.


Regards,


Parish


--
*To err is human. To forgive is against company policy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #30   Report Post  
Parish
 
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On 23/06/2005 16:34 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'd not necessarily expect a main dealer to have the equipment for other
maker's cars. But an independant should. For a start they can charge for
using it, and it makes diagnostics so much easier.

BTW, in the US - the land of free enterprise - *all* cars have to have a
common diagnostic socket that can be read by just one instrument. Called
OBC, IIRC. It's basically for checking emissions, but any engine fault
will effect those, so it will diagnose pretty well all. Not sure about
auto gearbox codes, though.


That makes sense. Since emissions are a legislative thing
checking/adjusting must be 'open' so can't be restricted to the
manufacturers' dealers. Someone else said they are standard over here
now too so I guess a main dealer could use their equipment on other
manufacturers' cars (depending on age).

[snip]

To me it's unfair practice trying to keep such things to themselves. And
it's fairly recent. At one time anyone could buy a maker's workshop manual
for virtually any car - now it's near impossible. So dealers get a licence
to print money - mine is some 110 quid an hour for rubbish service coupled
to shoddy work and downright dishonesty.


Yes, some of them are better at printing money than fixing cars :-(
When I took the Fiesta in, the first thing they did was have a
technician go out for a test drive. As we were walking to the car I
explained the problem and he said, without hesitating, "It'll be the MAF
sensor". After driving only a couple of hundred metres he said "Yeah,
it's the MAF sensor" - this is what makes me suspect it's a common
problem - yet they still (allegedly) hooked it up to the diagnostic
station, probably more as a excuse for charging an extra 20 mins labour
(for 5 mins work).

Someone once told me, many years ago, that BMW wouldn't sell parts to
Joe Public. Dunno whether that is/was the case or whether he was just
avoiding ridicule for taking it to a dealer for a simple job.

Parish


  #31   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Parish" wrote in message
...
snip

Yes, some of them are better at printing money than fixing cars :-(
When I took the Fiesta in, the first thing they did was have a
technician go out for a test drive. As we were walking to the car I
explained the problem and he said, without hesitating, "It'll be the

MAF
sensor". After driving only a couple of hundred metres he said

"Yeah,
it's the MAF sensor" - this is what makes me suspect it's a common
problem - yet they still (allegedly) hooked it up to the diagnostic
station, probably more as a excuse for charging an extra 20 mins

labour
(for 5 mins work).


No, it's to double check that the diagnosis agrees with the
diagnostic, you would soon be shouting from the roof tops if they
fitted (say) a new MAF sensor and then find it's failure was a result
and not a cause...


  #32   Report Post  
Pete C
 
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On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:25:15 +0100, ChrisJ
chris@youmustbejokingifyouthinkImputtingmyrealadd resshere.com wrote:

stuff snipped

Hi Chris,

A good point to start is to check the ECU to see if it's reporting any
faults. There are a few forums around and it looks like a code reader
is easy to make or cheap to buy:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=ford%20fiesta%20ecu%20codes&btnG=Go ogle+Search&meta=
http://www.preloved.co.uk/fuseaction-forums.showdiscussion/thread_id-11135/23c2a78a.html
http://www.abbeypowertools.co.uk/subprod/car-fault-code-readers-0001406.aspx

If the ECU is reporting a faulty sensor bear in mind it could be a
loose connection instead of the sensor itself. If the ECU is reporting
all OK it could be a bad sensor making the ECU get the timing or
mixture wrong, or something not related to the ECU such as fuel
flow/pressure problems.

It does sound like the faults could be due to a bad airflow or engine
temperature but it's by far the best to diagnose the fault in a
conclusive way.

cheers,
Pete
  #33   Report Post  
Clint Sharp
 
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In message ,
Parish writes
It would have to be a half-witted back-street garage for them no to
have such diagnostic kit, this equipment is not dealer specific


Really? So if I took the Fiesta, or my Saab, to say a Vauxhall dealer
or (good, competent) independent that they'd be able to hook them up to
their diagnostic kit and extract as much info as the respective main
dealers?

Well, the dealers tend only to have their manufacturer's specific
equipment but a good independent will have a scantool (or scantools)
that can read and reset fault codes from many engine management systems
as well as displaying 'live' data with the engine running (coolant temp,
air temp, RPM injector pulse width, lambda sensor etc. etc...) to enable
fault finding.
I would have thought that the manufacturers would make their systems
(both in the car and the workshop) proprietary in order to (attempt to)
force people to use their dealers.

Cars after 2001 use E-OBDII, it's a standard that's Europe Wide and it
provides a mandatory minimum set of information, it's an available
protocol so it's 'easy' to use. Plenty of manufacturers add extra data
to the datastream, plenty don't or make it accessible to only their kit
but it's usually reverse engineered pretty quickly.

and
the fault codes are available to the trade.


Again, that surprises me - for the reasons stated above.

BTW, I'm not being sarcastic, I'd be interested to know.

Hopefully now you know.

Regards,

Parish


--
Clint Sharp
  #34   Report Post  
Parish
 
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On 23/06/2005 23:28 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
The driver's exterior door handle broke on mine, and I got a new one. Its
fixing is unusual in that you don't have to remove the interior door trim
to get at it - it's all done via a small hole in the door jam. Which is
sealed by a sort of plastic grommet


Kudos then to BMW for making what I expect would be a rarely replaced
item easy to replace. So many times you come across things that are a
major job which, for the sake of a couple of millimetres, would be a
doddle - vehicles from the BMC/BL stable used to be notorious for that,
although even Ford goofed with the infamous Pinto engine where the
camshaft had to be removed from the back of the head rather than the
front thus necessitating removal of the head (or pulling the engine and
gearbox).

which breaks when you remove it.


Oh dear, and they were doing so well ;-)

Went to the next nearest dealer later, and a *proper* store man who looked
like he might get dirty on occasion went straight to it.


Hope you took a pic of him as they are a rare breed :-)

Parish
  #35   Report Post  
Parish
 
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On 23/06/2005 21:05 Clint Sharp wrote:

In message ,
Parish writes

BTW, I'm not being sarcastic, I'd be interested to know.


Hopefully now you know.


Yes, thanks Clint - and everyone else who replied - it seems that for
once something has been done that actually benefits the motorist. I
certainly remember when electronics first started appearing in cars that
they were proprietary and so tied you to the main dealers; I didn't
realize things had changed. Duly noted for future reference.

Regards,

Parish


  #36   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Parish" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/2005 21:05 Clint Sharp wrote:

In message ,
Parish writes

BTW, I'm not being sarcastic, I'd be interested to know.


Hopefully now you know.


Yes, thanks Clint - and everyone else who replied - it seems that

for
once something has been done that actually benefits the motorist. I
certainly remember when electronics first started appearing in cars

that
they were proprietary and so tied you to the main dealers; I didn't
realize things had changed. Duly noted for future reference.


Perhaps now you will stop posting your undiluted bile towards what you
plainly don't understand...


  #37   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Parish wrote:
The driver's exterior door handle broke on mine, and I got a new one.
Its fixing is unusual in that you don't have to remove the interior
door trim to get at it - it's all done via a small hole in the door
jam. Which is sealed by a sort of plastic grommet


Kudos then to BMW for making what I expect would be a rarely replaced
item easy to replace.


Well, they totally change the material it was made of from Mazak - a sort
of casting zinc alloy - to plastic.

But despite asking on all the relevant car groups and here, and the
various BMW websites, no one knew actually how to change it as officially
you need two special tools. And the hole is so small even with a powerful
torch and small mirror I couldn't see how. So at the end of the day, I had
to strip the door - airbag and all - to see how it worked. ;-(

Basically, it's a sliding latch bar with a spring lock at one end. You
need a strip of steel of fairly exact dimensions to push back the spring -
a screwdriver won't work - then a hook to pull the bar, both tools used at
the same time. To reset the latch, you merely press the handle assembly in
firmly, and push the latch bar back in and the spring locks it
automatically when fully home.

I'd chatted about this round the coffee table at work with pals interested
in cars - as you do - and just after I'd done it one good mate said his
son actually new as he did build up work on cars after respray. ;-)

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #38   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Parish wrote:
Yes, thanks Clint - and everyone else who replied - it seems that for
once something has been done that actually benefits the motorist. I
certainly remember when electronics first started appearing in cars that
they were proprietary and so tied you to the main dealers;


They didn't necessarily as early electronics had little or no built in
diagnostics. It was just that they were (and still are) so foreign to the
average mechanic. I've got an old Rover SDI which was one of the first UK
cars fitted with electronic fuel injection, and pretty well all the
testing of the components can be done with a decent DVM that includes
dwell measurement. Of course at the end of the day, things like the ECU
can only really be verified by substitution. However, the failure rate of
these is very much less than the average mechanic might believe.

I didn't
realize things had changed. Duly noted for future reference.


--
*Why is "abbreviated" such a long word?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #39   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Parish" wrote in message
...
snip

SWMBO has the same model and it developed _exactly_ the same


problem.

The cause was a blocked or contaminated MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor.
Total cost, at a Ford main dealer (including the initial diagnostic
check) £200.02 inc VAT.

A Ford dealer will hook the car up to the diagnostic kit and can


confirm

this from the error codes - although I'd be surprised if something


else

produced _exactly_ the same symptoms.



This is the problem, many faults can cause the same or very similar
faults, this is why the dealer checked the fault-code and didn't just
steam-roller into changing the said sensor / component - or are you
suggesting that this would have been the first time the dealer had
come across such a fault ?!
snip


In my experience - diagnosing problems with two fuel injected cars -
most dealres have not a clue.

I ended up having a discussion with someone I knew who ran the only
independent 3rd party info center on car electronics there is.

After spending a lot on garages, I diagnosed the faults myself with his
assistance and fixed em.

Even the fault codes don't tell the whole story - they need interpreting
- a 'sensor high' may be a bad sensor or a broken wire, for example, and
some faults show up not at all or as something else - a poor airflow
sensor for example may read perfect when closed, but the diagnostics
will show merely an over lean mixture at some point in the RPM curve.
That could be due to many things - insufficient fuel pressure being one.

Sadly they seem to have dissapeared - nmy chums firm - so I only have
the big book of fuel injection systems he gave me left..


HTH



Not a lot....


  #40   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Parish" wrote in message
...

On 23/06/2005 09:04 :::Jerry:::: wrote:


snip

This is the problem, many faults can cause the same or very


similar

faults, this is why the dealer checked the fault-code and didn't


just

steam-roller into changing the said sensor / component


Indeed, but I get the impression that the OP's garage is not a Ford
dealer with the Ford diagnostic kit and list of the error codes.



It would have to be a half-witted back-street garage for them no to
have such diagnostic kit, this equipment is not dealer specific and
the fault codes are available to the trade.


But the knowledge to interpret them is a little more specialised than
teh average grease monkey has at his disposal.
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