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Bernd January 29th 05 04:38 PM

Chain Drive Tracked Vehicle
 
I'm in the process of building a tracked snowblower using a 53hp VW
Beetle engine and transmission. In order to slow down the speed from the
output from the tranny I want to use a double reduction chain drive.
Hopefully this will propel the vehicle at a decent slow speed in either
first or second gear. I know some of you are going to say why not use a
hydrostatic drive. One reason is size for this vehicle would dictate a
rather large drive which would probably be cost prohibitive. Also I have
a majority of the material already for the chain drive. Perhaps in the
future I might be able to get a hydrostatic drive from a farm vehicle,
such as a haybine at an auction, but for now it'll be chain drive. If
anybody gets the Farm Show Magazine, there is a picture of a homebuilt
tracked vehicle by a guy up in Minnesota by the name of Larry Brown.
This is close to what I would like to build. I already have the frame
welded together. Next step is to build the tracks.

So here's my question, what size chain should be used for the given hp
and application? Seems like motorcycles use quite a large chain to drive
the rear wheel, would that size be about right?

Regards,
Bernd



Ecnerwal January 29th 05 04:49 PM

In article ,
"Bernd" wrote:

So here's my question, what size chain should be used for the given hp
and application? Seems like motorcycles use quite a large chain to drive
the rear wheel, would that size be about right?


Motorcycle chains should be up to the power requirements. Motorcycles
with considerably more power use chain or belt drives. If you're not in
possesion of the sprockets, I'd suggest considering the motorcycle belt
drives as being less maintenence headache over time - they do need to be
well-aligned to begin with, but they stretch less (thus require
adjusting less) and attract a lot less dirt & grime to themselves. The
inexpensive and practical approach to that is probably to drop by a M/C
junkyard - new prices tend to be a bit shocking.

Another (inexpensive, junkyard) approach would be to slap in a second
automotive (or M/C) transmission, driven from the first one - gives the
ability to change your ratios easily if you guess wrong, since it's a
prototype.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

Bernd January 29th 05 04:54 PM

I'm sure some of you would like some pictures to look at so here are 3.

First is the frame of my vehicle on the garage floor before welding.

http://kingstonemodeleng.com/vw/vw1.jpg

I should have turned the picture 90degree ccw for better viewing. Sorry.

Next is the "Home-Built Tracked Vehicle" by Larry Brown.

http://kingstonemodeleng.com/vw/track001.jpg

And here's the whole article about the vehicle.

http://kingstonemodeleng.com/vw/track2.jpg

Enjoy,
Bernd



Bernd January 29th 05 05:02 PM


"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
Motorcycle chains should be up to the power requirements. Motorcycles
with considerably more power use chain or belt drives. If you're not
in
possesion of the sprockets, I'd suggest considering the motorcycle
belt
drives as being less maintenence headache over time - they do need to
be
well-aligned to begin with, but they stretch less (thus require
adjusting less) and attract a lot less dirt & grime to themselves. The
inexpensive and practical approach to that is probably to drop by a
M/C
junkyard - new prices tend to be a bit shocking.


Are these belts cogged by any chance? Also do you have any rough
dimensions as to width of belt. I had forgotten that the Harley uses
belts, right?

Another (inexpensive, junkyard) approach would be to slap in a second
automotive (or M/C) transmission, driven from the first one - gives
the
ability to change your ratios easily if you guess wrong, since it's a
prototype.


Don't know if your familar with the VW tranny, but the motor mounts to
it in the usall way. But the final drive is also in the transmission. No
drive shaft to attach another tranny. I had thought of this but is very
difficult to do. I should take a picture of the tranny sitting on the
frame you you can see what it looks like. All I need to do is get all
the junk off of it the has acumulated on it over the last several
months. Since it's going to be a nice warm weekend here in NY, I might
just clear things out and take a picture and post it.

Thanks Larry for the info on the possibility of using a belt drive.
Hadn't thought of that.

Bernd

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by




jtaylor January 29th 05 05:49 PM


"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...

Motorcycle chains should be up to the power requirements. Motorcycles
with considerably more power use chain or belt drives. If you're not in
possesion of the sprockets, I'd suggest considering the motorcycle belt
drives as being less maintenence headache over time - they do need to be
well-aligned to begin with, but they stretch less (thus require
adjusting less) and attract a lot less dirt & grime to themselves.


Far and away the major cause of cycle chain "stretch" is wear due to road
dust/grit.

Enclosing the chain fully in a case with an oilbath will remove this.





Leo Lichtman January 29th 05 06:01 PM


"Ecnerwal" wrote: Motorcycle chains should be up to the power requirements.
Motorcycles with considerably more power use chain or belt drives.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
However, remember that a motorcycle develops full power at around 100 mph,
while a snow blower goes, maybe, 3-4 mph. If you really need 50 HP at that
low speed, the chain tension will be about 25 to 30 times as high. However,
I am not clear on the concept. Isn't most of the power going to be used to
throw the snow? How much will actually be used to drive the wheels, and how
are you planning to divide it?



mike cordless January 29th 05 06:40 PM

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:38:59 GMT, "Bernd" wrote:

Go here www.emerson-ept.com, you must register to git in da gate but
might be some good info. I didn't register so don't know. Dese boys
own morse chain, and browning gear and prolly have lots of info.
Looking at what yer building I'd use 80 chain. Prolly over built.
Maybe git by wit 60. I've changed enough chain to know bigger is
better. If you have the space. If you break something it won't be the
chain, prolly the key.
---------------------------------SNIP-----------------------------------------------
So here's my question, what size chain should be used for the given hp
and application? Seems like motorcycles use quite a large chain to drive
the rear wheel, would that size be about right?

Regards,
Bernd



Bernd January 29th 05 06:55 PM


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

However, remember that a motorcycle develops full power at around 100
mph, while a snow blower goes, maybe, 3-4 mph. If you really need 50
HP at that low speed, the chain tension will be about 25 to 30 times
as high. However, I am not clear on the concept. Isn't most of the
power going to be used to throw the snow? How much will actually be
used to drive the wheels, and how are you planning to divide it?


The engine that I'm using, a 4 cylinder opposed VW air-cooled engine,
happens to be around 50hp. Remember I said I'm using the stuff I have
laying around. I'm just going to try to put it all together in a
project. So with that said the engine will drive the vehicle and a
separate engine, 10 to 15 hp will drive a detachable snowblower. I'm
going to upload a few more pictures to make it clearer as to what it
will look like.

Bernd



Bernd January 29th 05 06:56 PM


"mike cordless" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:38:59 GMT, "Bernd" wrote:

Go here www.emerson-ept.com, you must register to git in da gate but
might be some good info. I didn't register so don't know. Dese boys
own morse chain, and browning gear and prolly have lots of info.
Looking at what yer building I'd use 80 chain. Prolly over built.
Maybe git by wit 60. I've changed enough chain to know bigger is
better. If you have the space. If you break something it won't be the
chain, prolly the key.


Thanks Mike.



Bernd January 29th 05 07:10 PM

I've uploade a few more pics for those that want to see how far I've
gotten and what it looks like at this point in the project.

http://kingstonemodeleng.com/vw/frame1.jpg

This picture shows the frame all welded up and the tranny with shift, by
the way it'll be a four speed, mechanism setting on the frame. The frame
is 7 feet long and about 30" wide.

http://kingstonemodeleng.com/vw/tranny1.jpg

This is a closer veiw of a 4 forward and one reverse speed aluminum VW
transmision. From lower rigth to upper left is as follows: bell housing,
differential, trannsmision, shift linkage. The drive from the tranny is
through two sets of constant velocity joints, one on the tranny and one
on the wishbone trailing arm holding the rear drive wheel.

http://kingstonemodeleng.com/vw/tranny2.jpg

Here's a closer view of the transfer part of the case. The constant
velocity joint is bolted to this part with 6 bolts. I plan on makeing
somethign out of round stock to were I can wweld a small sproket and
bolt to the drive axle, just like the original velocity joint.

I hope I've cleared up some questions on my project as to what it looks
like and why I'm doing the things I am. I have 4 front wheel drive VW's
setting around and a Beetle chassi that was once used for a dunebuggy I
had. So I'm using the parts from these to build the snowblower vehicle.

Bernd




Eric R Snow January 29th 05 07:48 PM

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:49:12 -0400, "jtaylor"
wrote:


"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...

Motorcycle chains should be up to the power requirements. Motorcycles
with considerably more power use chain or belt drives. If you're not in
possesion of the sprockets, I'd suggest considering the motorcycle belt
drives as being less maintenence headache over time - they do need to be
well-aligned to begin with, but they stretch less (thus require
adjusting less) and attract a lot less dirt & grime to themselves.


Far and away the major cause of cycle chain "stretch" is wear due to road
dust/grit.

Enclosing the chain fully in a case with an oilbath will remove this.



Of course, if the chain is run in an oil bath it must be sealed very
well, otherwise along with oil leaking out you will get water and dirt
leaking in. Since the chain can be lubed safely with chain lube and
left to run that way maybe just having a good dust cover would do. The
belting mentioned earlier is indeed toothed belting. It won't stretch
and won't wear at the pins like chain and appear to stretch. It's
expensive. You can get a toothed pulley made from aluminum which would
be cheaper than a steel one. Several years ago I needed to buy some
chain but did not know how to specify it. I called a local supplier,
Washington Chain (I think), and the fellow I spoke to asked about my
application, what speed, HP or torque of the motor, and environment
the chain would be running in. With all that info he was able to give
me a couple options and I was able to order the chain. The whole phone
call lasted about ten minutes as I had all the data in front of me
before the call was placed. I'm usually not that organised. If the
chain is very long an idler may be needed. These can be made from
plastic. UHMW works well if the idler as just a block that the chain
rubs against. If the idler rotates then nylon, Delrin, or Acetron will
work well. Delrin and Acetron don't absorb water, nylon does. I have
seen power transmission parts pretty cheap on ebay. Another source is
to google for "surplus _____". You fill in the blank. BTW, did you
know that the ring gear in the VW transaxle can be switched to the
other side? Then you can have 4 speeds reverse, and one forward.
ERS

Mark Jerde January 29th 05 07:49 PM

Bernd wrote:

The engine that I'm using, a 4 cylinder opposed VW air-cooled engine,
happens to be around 50hp. Remember I said I'm using the stuff I have
laying around. I'm just going to try to put it all together in a
project.


My hat is off to you. Someday I hope to be able to move out of surburban
Washington DC and have the space to tinker with stuff like you are doing.
;-)

-- Mark



Bernd January 29th 05 07:57 PM


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
You fill in the blank. BTW, did you
know that the ring gear in the VW transaxle can be switched to the
other side? Then you can have 4 speeds reverse, and one forward.
ERS


Yes I did. That's how they made the mid engine formula Vee's that used
to race at Watkins Glenn many moons ago. The VW dealer I bought all my
cars from had a sales man that was into racing the Vee's. He had his car
on display at the dealership. Almost got into racing back then but my
dad talked me out of it. DARN

Bernd



Bernd January 29th 05 08:00 PM


"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
news:7VQKd.739$EX.339@trnddc03...
Bernd wrote:

The engine that I'm using, a 4 cylinder opposed VW air-cooled engine,
happens to be around 50hp. Remember I said I'm using the stuff I have
laying around. I'm just going to try to put it all together in a
project.


My hat is off to you. Someday I hope to be able to move out of
surburban Washington DC and have the space to tinker with stuff like
you are doing. ;-)

-- Mark


Thanks Mark. I'm going to document as much of this build as possible and
then put it up on the web. The project is stalled because I needed to
figure out how I was going to do the track. But that has been solved now
so hopefully this spring I'll get it going again.

Bernd



Nick Hull January 29th 05 09:31 PM

In article ,
"Bernd" wrote:

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

However, remember that a motorcycle develops full power at around 100
mph, while a snow blower goes, maybe, 3-4 mph. If you really need 50
HP at that low speed, the chain tension will be about 25 to 30 times
as high. However, I am not clear on the concept. Isn't most of the
power going to be used to throw the snow? How much will actually be
used to drive the wheels, and how are you planning to divide it?


The engine that I'm using, a 4 cylinder opposed VW air-cooled engine,
happens to be around 50hp. Remember I said I'm using the stuff I have
laying around. I'm just going to try to put it all together in a
project. So with that said the engine will drive the vehicle and a
separate engine, 10 to 15 hp will drive a detachable snowblower. I'm
going to upload a few more pictures to make it clearer as to what it
will look like.


I think you have it backward, I'd use the 50 hp for the snowblower and
the 10 hp for drive.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Rick January 29th 05 10:15 PM


"Bernd" wrote in message
...

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
news:7VQKd.739$EX.339@trnddc03...
Bernd wrote:

The engine that I'm using, a 4 cylinder opposed VW air-cooled engine,
happens to be around 50hp. Remember I said I'm using the stuff I have
laying around. I'm just going to try to put it all together in a
project.


My hat is off to you. Someday I hope to be able to move out of
surburban Washington DC and have the space to tinker with stuff like
you are doing. ;-)

-- Mark


Thanks Mark. I'm going to document as much of this build as possible and
then put it up on the web. The project is stalled because I needed to
figure out how I was going to do the track. But that has been solved now
so hopefully this spring I'll get it going again.

Bernd





Jordan January 29th 05 10:15 PM

What happens if a rock gets caught between the sprocket and belt?
No mention of guards?

Jordan

Ecnerwal wrote:


I'd suggest considering the motorcycle belt
drives as being less maintenence headache over time - they do need to be
well-aligned to begin with, but they stretch less (thus require
adjusting less) and attract a lot less dirt & grime to themselves. The
inexpensive and practical approach to that is probably to drop by a M/C
junkyard - new prices tend to be a bit shocking.


Bernd January 29th 05 10:17 PM


"Nick Hull" wrote in message
...
I think you have it backward, I'd use the 50 hp for the snowblower and
the 10 hp for drive.


I used to have a Massey Ferguson 12hp garden tractor with snowblower. It
worked quite well in the snow. Don't need much to turn a auger and a 2
foot dia. impeller such as used on centrifugal fans. Besides that is
what I have available to put together the vehicle. If the blower motor
isn't big enough I can always get a bigger motor,eh?

Bernd



Ecnerwal January 29th 05 10:44 PM

In article ,
"Bernd" wrote:

Are these belts cogged by any chance? Also do you have any rough
dimensions as to width of belt. I had forgotten that the Harley uses
belts, right?


Yes they are cogged. Yes, Harley has been using them for quite a while
now. Kawasaki used them for a while on some bikes. Not sure what current
production is using them. My bike is a shafty, and old. I was skeptical
of them when I first heard of them, but the more I learned about them,
the more they seemed like a heck of a good system.

Typically a bit over an inch wide, IIRC, but they can be had in many
sizes.

Don't know if your familar with the VW tranny


Duh, right, it's a tranny and diff all in one (aka transaxle). I had a
Corvair for a few years myself if I'd just engage my brain about what
you are starting from - The main thing I recall about our aircooled VW
was that it would be a royal pain to start at home, and behave perfectly
when at the VW mechanic; and 9 (2-string) haybales fit (more or less
inside) the van.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

Bob May January 29th 05 11:34 PM

I'd second the idea of a second tranny for the wheel drive. Start out with
a reduction of about 4:1 (rear end ratio) and then you can gain another
about 3:1 or more reduction by the gear selection. Having the gears in a
second tranny will also allow you to have 4 choices for speeds which will
make the depth of the cut for the snowblower adjustable for the various
depths of snow.
You're probably going to be wanting to do about 3mph when the engine is
turning for 60mph on the first tranny so that ends up with a reduction of
about 20:1 and that means that you need to have about 5:1 for the
intermediate reduction to the second tranny clutch something easily possible
with a chain drive.
Please also note that chains are transmitting tension, not torque so a
larger gears will allow for more power transmission for any particular chain
size. You're also not going to be transmittng that much power (maybe 5hp)
so the requirements are not going to be that hard for the chain drive.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?



eByrd January 30th 05 01:46 AM

I'm possibly interested in the FarmShow CD. Do you have any opinions? Is it
complete with articles, pics, diagrams, etc?

I haven't been able to find anyone who has one and I hate to buy stuff
without some report / review / etc / someones opinion.

Have a good one, Byrd

*******************************
Remove any NOSPAM text from my email address. I have been getting a lot of
spam and have had to include some additional text to my email in an attempt
to deceive those nasty email scavenging programs that skim addresses off of
mail servers.



Ned Simmons January 30th 05 02:24 AM

In article 77QKd.112415$w62.107806@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net, says...

"mike cordless" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:38:59 GMT, "Bernd" wrote:

Go here
www.emerson-ept.com, you must register to git in da gate but
might be some good info. I didn't register so don't know. Dese boys
own morse chain, and browning gear and prolly have lots of info.
Looking at what yer building I'd use 80 chain. Prolly over built.
Maybe git by wit 60. I've changed enough chain to know bigger is
better. If you have the space. If you break something it won't be the
chain, prolly the key.


Thanks Mike.


Another way of looking at the chain size is to consider
that the tension in the final chain will be approximately

max traction X (diameter of the track drivers / diameter of
the final sprocket)

I'd expect the maximum traction to be something on the
order of the weight of the vehicle.

The chain manufacturers publish tables for max chain
tension for slow speed drives, which is approximately 1/4
of tensile strength. If you go thru the standard selection
procedure you'll end up with a massive chain that's
suitable for 24/7 use--the slow speed ratings are probably
a better fit for your use. Here's Dodge's version...

www.dodge-pt.com/pdf/catalog/ pt_components/sproc_sel.pdf

Tsubaki gives actual tensile (breaking) strength in their
catalog, and a Google search may turn up their catalog
online.

Ned Simmons

Andy Asberry January 30th 05 04:53 AM

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:38:59 GMT, "Bernd" wrote:

I'm in the process of building a tracked snowblower using a 53hp VW
Beetle engine and transmission. In order to slow down the speed from the
output from the tranny I want to use a double reduction chain drive.
Hopefully this will propel the vehicle at a decent slow speed in either
first or second gear. I know some of you are going to say why not use a
hydrostatic drive. One reason is size for this vehicle would dictate a
rather large drive which would probably be cost prohibitive. Also I have
a majority of the material already for the chain drive. Perhaps in the
future I might be able to get a hydrostatic drive from a farm vehicle,
such as a haybine at an auction, but for now it'll be chain drive. If
anybody gets the Farm Show Magazine, there is a picture of a homebuilt
tracked vehicle by a guy up in Minnesota by the name of Larry Brown.
This is close to what I would like to build. I already have the frame
welded together. Next step is to build the tracks.

So here's my question, what size chain should be used for the given hp
and application? Seems like motorcycles use quite a large chain to drive
the rear wheel, would that size be about right?

Regards,
Bernd


Here you go
http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UI...211-B&catname=

Ken Cutt January 30th 05 10:13 AM

Bernd wrote:
I'm in the process of building a tracked snowblower using a 53hp VW
Beetle engine and transmission. In order to slow down the speed from the
output from the tranny I want to use a double reduction chain drive.
Hopefully this will propel the vehicle at a decent slow speed in either
first or second gear. I know some of you are going to say why not use a
hydrostatic drive. One reason is size for this vehicle would dictate a
rather large drive which would probably be cost prohibitive. Also I have
a majority of the material already for the chain drive. Perhaps in the
future I might be able to get a hydrostatic drive from a farm vehicle,
such as a haybine at an auction, but for now it'll be chain drive. If
anybody gets the Farm Show Magazine, there is a picture of a homebuilt
tracked vehicle by a guy up in Minnesota by the name of Larry Brown.
This is close to what I would like to build. I already have the frame
welded together. Next step is to build the tracks.

So here's my question, what size chain should be used for the given hp
and application? Seems like motorcycles use quite a large chain to drive
the rear wheel, would that size be about right?

Regards,
Bernd


Hi . I have a VW driven track machine with chain drives . First off the
chains are 60's . More then strong enough to carry 3000 lb over uneven
ground and steep slopes . My reduction after the axles is about 5/1 ( I
should check this ). Not enough ;-( . I can only use 1st gear , second
only on the smoothest ground . The other gears are simply far to fast .
I need to do some major rework of mine and will slow it down more then .
Mine has the brakes after the reduction , bad idea . It would have been
much better right at the axle . I don't really have room to move it now
so planning on going over to power brakes and double up my calipers
hoping that solves the problem . My tracks are far different then the
pictures you posted . Mine are old rubber conveyor belting with metal
cross bars for the drive sprockets to engage . I have had mine for 20 or
so years and never had to replace the chains but probably will shorten
them soon by half a link . If you have any other specific questions ask
and I will see if I can help . I can see if about pictures if you like .
I really wish mine had an automatic tranny . Things get real busy and
shifting from forward to reverse on slopes can be a bit nervy . Well the
slopes in BC are for me anyway . ;-) . Luck
Ken Cutt

R. Wink January 30th 05 02:47 PM

I had a friend who built a lawn mower like this. At the output side of the VW transaxle, he fashioned axle shafts with gears
from a coal mine winch, I think. He built an enclosure that bolted to the transaxle and to the frame. He used what he had
but I think it was something like 7:1 reduction and in low, I could walk fast than he could drive wide open.
He pulled a gang of 10 reel mowers over his 5 acre front yard for over 5 years without a drive train failure.
I think the secret to his success was that the gear set was way oversized and he keep them running in hypoid (sp?) gear lub.
R. Wink


On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:38:59 GMT, "Bernd" wrote:

I'm in the process of building a tracked snowblower using a 53hp VW
Beetle engine and transmission. In order to slow down the speed from the
output from the tranny I want to use a double reduction chain drive.
Hopefully this will propel the vehicle at a decent slow speed in either
first or second gear. I know some of you are going to say why not use a
hydrostatic drive. One reason is size for this vehicle would dictate a
rather large drive which would probably be cost prohibitive. Also I have
a majority of the material already for the chain drive. Perhaps in the
future I might be able to get a hydrostatic drive from a farm vehicle,
such as a haybine at an auction, but for now it'll be chain drive. If
anybody gets the Farm Show Magazine, there is a picture of a homebuilt
tracked vehicle by a guy up in Minnesota by the name of Larry Brown.
This is close to what I would like to build. I already have the frame
welded together. Next step is to build the tracks.

So here's my question, what size chain should be used for the given hp
and application? Seems like motorcycles use quite a large chain to drive
the rear wheel, would that size be about right?

Regards,
Bernd



RoyJ January 30th 05 05:52 PM

That is a GOOD price! But the picture and the description are a bit
off. Pic shows a 2:1 reduction, description sounds like 1:1

Andy Asberry wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:38:59 GMT, "Bernd" wrote:


I'm in the process of building a tracked snowblower using a 53hp VW
Beetle engine and transmission. In order to slow down the speed from the
output from the tranny I want to use a double reduction chain drive.
Hopefully this will propel the vehicle at a decent slow speed in either
first or second gear. I know some of you are going to say why not use a
hydrostatic drive. One reason is size for this vehicle would dictate a
rather large drive which would probably be cost prohibitive. Also I have
a majority of the material already for the chain drive. Perhaps in the
future I might be able to get a hydrostatic drive from a farm vehicle,
such as a haybine at an auction, but for now it'll be chain drive. If
anybody gets the Farm Show Magazine, there is a picture of a homebuilt
tracked vehicle by a guy up in Minnesota by the name of Larry Brown.
This is close to what I would like to build. I already have the frame
welded together. Next step is to build the tracks.

So here's my question, what size chain should be used for the given hp
and application? Seems like motorcycles use quite a large chain to drive
the rear wheel, would that size be about right?

Regards,
Bernd



Here you go
http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UI...211-B&catname=


Bernd January 30th 05 10:15 PM


"eByrd" wrote in message
...
I'm possibly interested in the FarmShow CD. Do you have any opinions?
Is it complete with articles, pics, diagrams, etc?

I haven't been able to find anyone who has one and I hate to buy stuff
without some report / review / etc / someones opinion.

Have a good one, Byrd


Byrd,

Don't know about the CD, but the magazine is fun to look through. It's
great for a guy who wants to get ideas for building something fun. Also
has some good sources of info on products.

Bernd



Bernd January 30th 05 10:18 PM

Here you go
http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UI...211-B&catname=


I have their catalog. Thanks Andy.

Bernd



Bernd January 30th 05 10:48 PM


"Ken Cutt" wrote in message
...
Hi . I have a VW driven track machine with chain drives . First off
the chains are 60's .


Ken, that's one of the answers I was looking for. Great. Thanks.

My reduction after the axles is about 5/1 ( I should check this ). Not
enough ;-( .


Again an answer to what I was looking for. I haven't looked in to the
specifics of ratios yet. But at least from your experince I can get a
better idea.

Mine has the brakes after the reduction , bad idea . It would have
been much better right at the axle . I don't really have room to move
it now so planning on going over to power brakes and double up my
calipers hoping that solves the problem .


I was haveing trouble in deciding were to put the brakes. I figured if
it was after the reduction that the power transmitted through the
reduction that it would be hard to brake. So you think the brakes would
be better of if they were at the output of the tranny before the
reduction?

My tracks are far different then the pictures you posted . Mine are
old rubber conveyor belting with metal cross bars for the drive
sprockets to engage .


I was orginally going to use a drive sprocket put couldn't find a ready
source for one. What did you use for a sprocket?

If you have any other specific questions ask and I will see if I can
help .


I think the ones I posed here are about it for now. I'll keep your
e-mail addy in the address book.

I can see if about pictures if you like .


A pic or two would be nice if you can do that. I realy would appreciate
it.

I really wish mine had an automatic tranny . Things get real busy and
shifting from forward to reverse on slopes can be a bit nervy .


I was also wondering if an automatic would work better. I don't have the
hills to contend with. Just a 1/10 mile long driveway that gets plugged
with snow real fast, plus I don't like when it gets below te 20's and
the wind chill way minus.

Again thanks for all the good info. I'm kind of surprised that somebody
else has actually tried this. At first I thought I was a bit nuts trying
to do this.

Regards,
Bernd



Bernd January 30th 05 10:49 PM


"R. Wink" wrote in message
...
I had a friend who built a lawn mower like this. At the output side of
the VW transaxle, he fashioned axle shafts with gears
from a coal mine winch, I think. He built an enclosure that bolted to
the transaxle and to the frame. He used what he had
but I think it was something like 7:1 reduction and in low, I could
walk fast than he could drive wide open.
He pulled a gang of 10 reel mowers over his 5 acre front yard for over
5 years without a drive train failure.
I think the secret to his success was that the gear set was way
oversized and he keep them running in hypoid (sp?) gear lub.
R. Wink


Thanks for the info R. Wink

Regards,
Bernd



Old Nick January 30th 05 11:33 PM

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:53:20 GMT, Andy Asberry
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Cogged belt and pulleys 80HP. $9 !????????

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:38:59 GMT, "Bernd" wrote:

I'm in the process of building a tracked snowblower using a 53hp VW
Beetle engine and transmission. In order to slow down the speed from the
output from the tranny I want to use a double reduction chain drive.
Hopefully this will propel the vehicle at a decent slow speed in either


Here you go
http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UI...211-B&catname=



Ken Cutt January 31st 05 09:41 AM

Bernd wrote:
"Ken Cutt" wrote in message
...

Hi . I have a VW driven track machine with chain drives . First off
the chains are 60's .



Ken, that's one of the answers I was looking for. Great. Thanks.


My reduction after the axles is about 5/1 ( I should check this ).
Not enough ;-( .



Again an answer to what I was looking for. I haven't looked in to the
specifics of ratios yet. But at least from your experince I can get
a better idea.



My thinking on reduction is why have four gears but only be able to use
one or two ?
I will try look tomorrow and get the tooth count .


Mine has the brakes after the reduction , bad idea . It would have
been much better right at the axle . I don't really have room to
move it now so planning on going over to power brakes and double up
my calipers hoping that solves the problem .



I was haveing trouble in deciding were to put the brakes. I figured
if it was after the reduction that the power transmitted through the
reduction that it would be hard to brake. So you think the brakes
would be better of if they were at the output of the tranny before
the reduction?


Ideally I think clutches and brakes would be the best choice but for sure
I have a hard time braking the way mine is set up .
I would put the brakes right at the trans axle if I could . One note .
Mine is really hard on the rear spindles and idler wheels . Loaded the
side strain is huge when braking . I have to go heavier all around . My
original spindles are off a Ford Cortina and I have 12 inch idler wheels
.. My spindles are welded to heavy tubing that goes from side to side .
So changing them is a pain . When I replace them, I am going to spindles
that bolt on . There are some Dodge rear spindles that look good at the
wreckers . So welding on plates and bolts should make it easier to
change them when they do go . I can get spindles at PICKNPULL on sale
for 7.99 so I figure I can afford to lose a few and can keep a spare on
hand . Then I will also move up to 13 inch idlers and hope they are a
little tougher but really if I brake a few rims I do not care . Old
Dodge rims here are freebies anyway . It isn't that things brake that
often but the side drag is a design issue you can not avoid using only
brake steering .


My tracks are far different then the pictures you posted . Mine are
old rubber conveyor belting with metal cross bars for the drive
sprockets to engage .



I was orginally going to use a drive sprocket put couldn't find a
ready source for one. What did you use for a sprocket?

Drive sprocket , ha ha . Mine will surprise you . Center hub
welded to a flat plate , then about a piece 1 1/2 inches welded wrapped
around that at 90 degrees , Then teeth welded around that made from
solid metal . I know sounds like a big pain but really not very hard to
do and they turn so slow nothing really needs to be balanced . For sure
with teeth they never slip .

If you have any other specific questions ask and I will see if I
can help .



I think the ones I posed here are about it for now. I'll keep your
e-mail addy in the address book.


The email is good . Just put track machine in the header so I do not
dump it with the reg daily spam .


I can see if about pictures if you like .



A pic or two would be nice if you can do that. I realy would
appreciate it.

I will see if I can get some pics into the drop box tomorrow . Enough to
show clearly the points I have made so far .

I really wish mine had an automatic tranny . Things get real busy
and shifting from forward to reverse on slopes can be a bit nervy .



I was also wondering if an automatic would work better. I don't have
the hills to contend with. Just a 1/10 mile long driveway that gets
plugged with snow real fast, plus I don't like when it gets below te
20's and the wind chill way minus.

Again thanks for all the good info. I'm kind of surprised that
somebody else has actually tried this. At first I thought I was a bit
nuts trying to do this.


I am amazed at where mine will go . I can carry a cord of wood on the
back and crawl up hills too steep to stand on . Side note , seat belt ,
honest they lurch enough to throw you right off the front . Happened to
me once , yikes . Now I do have a belt and I will not get on it unless
it is hooked up . I can not say how important the belt is so plan for
one . My machine I estimate weighs about 1800 Lbs. empty and loaded just
about 5000 . This will give you an idea about the power you can expect .
If you plan on moving snow weight will be important . I guess mine has
some flotation but no where enough to stay on top of snow .

Regards, Bernd


Feel free to ask any questions you have as you go along , these things
are way too cool a toy not to share :-) . Luck
Ken Cutt

Bernd January 31st 05 03:09 PM

Feel free to ask any questions you have as you go along , these things
are way too cool a toy not to share :-) . Luck
Ken Cutt


Thanks Ken. I'll keep in touch as I go along. Could be weeks or months
between e-mails.

Bernd



Roger Hull January 31st 05 03:50 PM

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 6:09:21 -0800, Bernd wrote
(in message ):


Bernd


I'm playing with a smaller-scale tracked machine for handicapped persons
transport and wonder what ideas you have for the actual track? TIA.



Old Nick January 31st 05 11:53 PM

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:48:52 GMT, "Bernd" vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email


Mine has the brakes after the reduction , bad idea . It would have
been much better right at the axle . I don't really have room to move
it now so planning on going over to power brakes and double up my
calipers hoping that solves the problem .


I was haveing trouble in deciding were to put the brakes. I figured if
it was after the reduction that the power transmitted through the
reduction that it would be hard to brake. So you think the brakes would
be better of if they were at the output of the tranny before the
reduction?


My .002 worth...

Brakes will need to be smaller if before the trannie or any reduction,
because they are stopping a much lower torque when the engine is
driving, and _with_ a higher advantage if you are "freewheeling" (as
much as this thing will ever freewheel G). But if the trannie or any
part of the drive train after the brakes should fail, you have no
brakes, and also no drive train.

You are right about the braking under power, except that in most cases
that I know of, skid steer stuff that is not hydrostatic drive also
requires that you disengage a clutch to the stopping side of the
tracks before you brake to turn anyway.

Bernd January 31st 05 11:53 PM


I'm playing with a smaller-scale tracked machine for handicapped
persons
transport and wonder what ideas you have for the actual track? TIA.


Roger,

If you go back through some of the messages you'll see I posted some
URL's that explain how I found out what to use. I was originally going
to make my own track using belting and C channel bolted to the belting
with a sprocket drive.

But to save you the trouble of searching right away, I'm going to use
the rear tire of a farm tractor with the side wall cut out. I think for
your application you should be able to use any kind of rubber tire that
will fit the length of track you want to make. Just cut the side walls
out and use the tread. One problem I'm going to need to solve is keeping
the track on the drive and support wheels.

I think perhaps that a conveyor type of belting might work for you.
Since I'm familiar with farm equipment I was going to use the belting
that is used on round hay balers. If you have a "Tractor Supply" store
near you, that is were you can purchase the belting. Think of any kind
or tire or belting to make your track out of. Got more questions, just
ask. You can e-mail me at bhf51 at att dot com. I may forget to stop
back here to check on posts. Best to take it to e-mail. I'll check back
just incase you can't get through.

Bernd



B.B. February 1st 05 04:53 AM

In article ,
Old Nick wrote:

[...]

Brakes will need to be smaller if before the trannie or any reduction,
because they are stopping a much lower torque when the engine is
driving, and _with_ a higher advantage if you are "freewheeling" (as
much as this thing will ever freewheel G). But if the trannie or any
part of the drive train after the brakes should fail, you have no
brakes, and also no drive train.


He could set up an emergency brake of sorts. I stuck one on a cart
once--it was just a simple parallelogram that would swing down far
enough to contact the ground--rolling in one direction would wedge it
further into the ground. Two back-to-back for bidirectional braking.
Simple, lightweight, damn near bulletproof.
Or use auto wheel ends with brakes in 'em and pull like all hell when
something goes wrong. (:

You are right about the braking under power, except that in most cases
that I know of, skid steer stuff that is not hydrostatic drive also
requires that you disengage a clutch to the stopping side of the
tracks before you brake to turn anyway.


I think the transaxle he plans to use has a differential in it, so
steering clutches shouldn't be needed--just twin brakes. I believe most
crawlers omit the differential because it's hard to make sturdy enough,
and it would make it possible for the tractor to drift to one side
rather that going straight when digging with only one end of the blade.
Shouldn't be an issue on this doodad.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

Ken Cutt February 1st 05 09:13 AM

Bernd wrote:
Feel free to ask any questions you have as you go along , these things
are way too cool a toy not to share :-) . Luck
Ken Cutt



Thanks Ken. I'll keep in touch as I go along. Could be weeks or months
between e-mails.

Bernd


Hi . I did send in pics today but I do not see them in the " drop box "
yet . I may have botched it . If they do not show up tomorrow I will try
track them down . They will be under the heading of " track machine " if
some how I did get it right ;-) . Email any time along the route . Luck
Ken Cutt

Ken Cutt February 1st 05 09:27 AM

B.B. wrote:
In article ,
Old Nick wrote:

[...]


Brakes will need to be smaller if before the trannie or any reduction,
because they are stopping a much lower torque when the engine is
driving, and _with_ a higher advantage if you are "freewheeling" (as
much as this thing will ever freewheel G). But if the trannie or any
part of the drive train after the brakes should fail, you have no
brakes, and also no drive train.



He could set up an emergency brake of sorts. I stuck one on a cart
once--it was just a simple parallelogram that would swing down far
enough to contact the ground--rolling in one direction would wedge it
further into the ground. Two back-to-back for bidirectional braking.
Simple, lightweight, damn near bulletproof.
Or use auto wheel ends with brakes in 'em and pull like all hell when
something goes wrong. (:


You are right about the braking under power, except that in most cases
that I know of, skid steer stuff that is not hydrostatic drive also
requires that you disengage a clutch to the stopping side of the
tracks before you brake to turn anyway.



I think the transaxle he plans to use has a differential in it, so
steering clutches shouldn't be needed--just twin brakes. I believe most
crawlers omit the differential because it's hard to make sturdy enough,
and it would make it possible for the tractor to drift to one side
rather that going straight when digging with only one end of the blade.
Shouldn't be an issue on this doodad.

I have a trans axle but sure wish for them clutches none the less . In
fact I consider it a design flaw on mine ;-( . I keep meaning to fire
the designer ;-) . Nick is right in my opinion . You can get by without
but it is harder on the machine . Cheaper though and a ton less
engineering . Also with clutches I could have posi . It is a minor pain
but would be nice the odd time . Now if a track spins on steep or sloppy
ground I brake that track and it powers through . Just it annoys me . If
a chain broke stopping even on steep hill would be no problem . If the
tranny failed . Well in my case I think stopping with the brakes would
depend on the load . If fully loaded I think it would be time to jump
ship and hope the landing spot was better then the crash site ;-) .
Normal operating speed is so slow you do have some reaction time .
Ken Cutt

Ken Cutt February 2nd 05 06:37 AM

Seems even my best efforts could not stump " MR. Stallings " ;-)
So here are the links

http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/track_machine.txt
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_001.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_002.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_003.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_004.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_005.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_006.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_007.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_008.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_009.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_010.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_011.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_012.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_013.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_014.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...e_2005_015.jpg


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