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| Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Recommendations for beginner machinist tools, please...
I am just getting into metalworking, primarily with the aim of learning
small-scale machining and steel brazing. I would eventually like to be able to fabricate small bicycle parts, such as shift levers and the like. After reading through the "Home Machinist Handbook" I am still just slightly confused about what pieces of equipment and hand tools I will need. I assume at minimum I am going to need a lathe and a mill, but am a bit baffled by the variety of these, particularly in terms of price for the micro/desktop units (from around $350 all the way up to $5000). The sort of questions I have a is it reasonable to buy a combo lathe/mill unit, or is it better to have dedicated equipment? Is the low-end stuff (Harbor Freight) decent enough to get going or is it a waste of money? If I know I eventually may want CNC capability, what is the best mill to buy for the money? Also, what other types of fabrication equipment are generally found to be indispensible for making things like, say, specialty washers, pulleys, ratchet gears/catches, etc.? A broad (perhaps stupid) question, I know, but I am just not finding a complete answer in my books or other sources, so thought I just go ahead and seek advice from those who know, since I really do not want to waste money on tools or capability I simply don't need. Any input appreciated. |
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#2
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Check all the community colleges in your area and see if you can find a
class. Being able to talk to the instructor would great. You might post your address and see if someone here will show you their shop and give you some advice. Some Harbor Freight items are good value, some are junk, and some are surprisingly good. Dan |
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#4
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wrote in message
oups.com... I am just getting into metalworking, primarily with the aim of learning small-scale machining and steel brazing. I would eventually like to be able to fabricate small bicycle parts, such as shift levers and the like. After reading through the "Home Machinist Handbook" I am still just slightly confused about what pieces of equipment and hand tools I will need. Very tough question. The best place to start would be to take a course at a local college or high school. For hand tools Ebay is your friend. You can save some big bucks by buying there. Watch the auctions for a couple of weeks and get a feel for prices and condition of items, then go ahead and bid. Don't fall in love with anything, and don't get into a bidding war. For hand tools I would start with something like this: 0-1" Micrometer. - Look for one in new or near new condition with carbide faces that reads in "tenths" (.0001"). My experience is that people overpay for the Starrett name, and there are better micrometers than theirs by far, I'm not saying don't buy their stuff, just don't overpay. No matter what item Starrett makes I can give you a brand that is superior, and often sells for less on Ebay. Look for Etalon, Tesa, Helios, Mitutoyo, Starrett, or Brown & Sharpe for a micrometer. (I never liked B&S mikes myself). Older brands that are good - Lufkin, Scheer Tumico, J.T.Slocomb. A Slocomb Speedmike in good shape would be great for a beginner. They usually go for around ten to fifteen bucks in like new condition. Older Craftsman (Sears) micrometers that were made in Germany and Japan were made by Helios, and Mitutoyo. Any Craftsman made after the mid 80's is usually junk. Another option would be a digital mike. Mitutoyos are pretty affordable, and they are probably the best. Add 1-2", 2-3", 3-4" as budget permits. Six+ inch Vernier caliper, dial caliper, digital caliper. Wether you go with a vernier, dial, or digital is really up to you. I would be very leery about buying this tool used. The potential for abuse and damage is pretty high. Often there are new ones listed and I would wait for one of these. The brands I would look for would be: Digital (good accuracy)- Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharpe, Starrett. Dial (least accurate)- Brown & Sharpe (I like theirs best), Mitutoyo, Helios, Tesa, Etalon. I'm not wild about the Starret that I had, it was too soft. But if it's a good deal... Vernier (most accurate) - Starrett make a damn good vernier caliper. Etalon, Helios, and Brown & Sharpe are also very good. Mitutoyos are a little light and don't have as good of a feel as the others. Square - Buy a good quality six inch machinist square. Or make one with a file and band saw like they made me do back in the old days. Well you'd still need a good square to check it against, or a surface plate. Ahh, just buy one. Combination Square - Buy a Starrett or Miyutoyo four piece (Center finder, protrator, square, and rule). Be aware that there are different grades, you want precision, not carpentry. Get a 12" blade for starters. Add longer and shorter blades later as you find them. Calipers, compass, assorted lay out tools. - You can get these cheap on Ebay. Look for someone auctioning off an assortment. You will get a better deal that way. Center Punch - You'll need one for lay out work. This is a great lathe project for your new lathe. Carbide scribe - General is as good as anything. Actually you can buy most any brand, and it will be OK. Six inch scale - Starrett or Mitutoyo. Older Lufkins and General's in good shape are OK too. Dial Test Indicater - I've used them all, and I use them often, so I'm a bit of a DTI snob. I would buy a .0005" and a .0001". If your budget is tight buy the .0005". In order of quality - Compac, Brown & Sharpe Best Test, Interapid, Mitutoyo. The Mitutoyo is just OK. Every other brand I've used has proven over time to be junk. Starrett, Gem, Peacock, Teclock, Pic, etc.. All junk. Spend money wisely on this tool. You will also want an assortment of adapters for your DTI. Magnetic base - I've used them all. Starrett mag bases are the nicest. But I would buy a cheap knock off, that has an on/off switch and a V in the base. Make sure it has a fine adjust knob. I would also buy a very small China one that is not switchable. They are around ten bucks and worth every penny. Dial indicater - Buy a .001" to start. Get at least one inch travel. Two inch would be better. This will likely be your "DRO" on your first lathe for a while. Buy a tip assortment and a test stand as budget permits. Make sure you have the adapters you need to use this with your mag bases. Files - Buy good quality assorted files, and file handles. I like Nicholson myself. Also get a file card to clan the files with. You'll be surprised how often you use this lowly tool. Hack saw - same as above. Tap handles and die stock. - Sooner or later you'll want to put a thead on or in something. Drill assortment - You'll be wanting to put holes in stuff. If you buy a good quality U.S. brand you'll never regret spending the extra money. Dykem - Get a bottle for lay out work. Power hand tools - A good sabre saw, sawz-all, VSR drill, and a Dremel are all handy to have. There are tons of other tools you'll need or want, but this will give you a good start. I assume at minimum I am going to need a lathe and a mill, but am a bit baffled by the variety of these, particularly in terms of price for the micro/desktop units (from around $350 all the way up to $5000). The sort of questions I have a is it reasonable to buy a combo lathe/mill unit, or is it better to have dedicated equipment? Is the low-end stuff (Harbor Freight) decent enough to get going or is it a waste of money? If I know I eventually may want CNC capability, what is the best mill to buy for the money? If you have the room and power, I would buy a used industrial knee mill. Look for a used good quality mill. If it were my money I wouldn't buy a Bridgeport. They are the most popular and command a premium which is not deserved based on quality or rigidity. Look for a good quality lesser known brand. Gorton, Alliant, Sharp, Atrump, Wells-Index, Induma, etc.. I recently saw a very nice (spotless table, good chrome) Alliant with a DRO, work light, vise, collets, and some tooling sell for around $1,000.00 on Ebay. Same week an old round ram Bridgeport that looked hammered to death and worn out sell for over $2,500.00 with no extras. I would start with a knee mill, you can use it as a lathe in a pinch. Try and find a deal that includes a vise, collets, and some tooling. All that stuff adds up. Bonus for DRO, indexing head, rotary table, clamp set, or boring head. As for a lathe, a toolmakers lathe would be nice but they are pretty spendy. Monarch EE, Hardinge HLV, or a Harrison AA. All hard to find and all fairly expensive. SO, an engine lathe would be your best bet. I like a 14" X 40", but that might be a bit big for your needs. South Bend and Logans are easy to find, many of them are set up for household current. I recently saw a bunch of Nardini lathes being auctioned from a school. Something like that would be a good way to go as well. I would want a machine that has the ability to power feed and thread. I think good industrial quality used is better than low quality new, but to each their own. Look for something that includes a three jaw chuck, four jaw chuck, steady rest, functioning tail stock, tool post and some tooling. Bonus for 5C collet closer, quick change tool post, DRO, coolant pump, Drill chuck, and toolholders. Also, what other types of fabrication equipment are generally found to be indispensible for making things like, say, specialty washers, pulleys, ratchet gears/catches, etc.? Lathe and mill will do most of that stuff. For high quality gears you would need a hobber, not really a home shop kind of thing, but if you are making them in quantity, it might be worth looking in to an old one. The tooling would be a killer though. If you're serious about all this, a surface grinder might be in order. You can use it to make and sharpen tools, as well as grind tight tolerance parts you might want to make. At the very least you should get a pedestal grinder and a belt sander. A broad (perhaps stupid) question, I know, but I am just not finding a complete answer in my books or other sources, so thought I just go ahead and seek advice from those who know, since I really do not want to waste money on tools or capability I simply don't need. Any input appreciated. Again, taking a course will give you a better idea of what you'll need. If you buy good equipment and get a good deal on it, you should have no problem selling it later. You'll be out freight costs which can be considerable. Dan |
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#5
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On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:02:05 -0600, "Dan" wrote:
wrote in message roups.com... I am just getting into metalworking, primarily with the aim of learning small-scale machining and steel brazing. I would eventually like to be able to fabricate small bicycle parts, such as shift levers and the like. After reading through the "Home Machinist Handbook" I am still just slightly confused about what pieces of equipment and hand tools I will need. 0-1" Micrometer. - Look for one in new or near new condition with carbide faces that reads in "tenths" (.0001"). Starting point here, but don't stop at 0-1". I'll also differ on the tenths, for a non controlled environment, tenths are only fooling yourself. I also would not say to look for used unless you're really strapped for the cash, good quality instruments bought new will last for a lifetime. Mine are Starretts, the 0-3" set purchased new. BUT. Pick them up and try them before you put down any money. IF you don't like how they come to hand, don't buy them, you won't use them. I have a rule, and it's simple. Never, ever, under any circumstances buy any precision instrument unless you can pick it up and try it first. Ratchets, friction thimbles, locks, carbide faces, all nice "bells and whistles", but the micrometer is that screw and the nut that it fits. Carbide faces resist wear, but are far easier to chip. Friction thimbles give an even pressure every time, but do nothing to guarantee that you have the faces flat on the workpiece. Calipers, I have them ranging from a 24" Starrett Master Vernier to the cheapest imported vernier caliper available. The accuracy of any of them depends more on knowing the state of the measuring faces and developing a feel for it's use than it does on who made it. Brands, Starrett, Brown and Sharpe, Tumico, Lufkin, all good brands. Slocum, if in top condition, very good. You'll hear a lot of hot air about these choices, but keep in mind that what people consider as good or not good is only personal preference. Myself, if you want clunky, awkward, ****ty feeling, "has to be pampered with a velvet bed", buy Mitutoyo. Others will tell you the same about Starrett, it's all in what you learned with. Machines, it depends on what your budget is and how much room you have. I have old turret lathes that I've put more work into than can ever be justified, and an old mill that's about to get the same. "The price was right", until you consider the hours it's going to take to make it run. If you know enough to know what you're buying, fine. New machine or old, you can get something you don't want with either one, country of origin not a factor. I have the much hated Harbor Freight 9 X 20, and find that using it is fiddly, but no worse than the beat out Monarch I used to run. More depends on the skill of the man standing in front of it than who made the machine. Mill and lathe as separates, far superior to the combination machines, no arguments there. Old industrial machines, first, someone got rid of them for a reason. Second, weight, and lots of it. It's more normal to have to rebuild a used machine than to get one in pristine condition. If you can handle that and the weight, great. IF not, shop around and see what turns your crank. Nobody can divine your situation, what you need or what you have room for or capability to handle. Find someone with some experience and have them look at what you want to do, the room you have, and how much you want to spend. Then you have an informed opinion, which you are not getting here. Greybeard. |
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#6
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Very nice reply, Dan! IMO, you pretty much tell it like it is. But are you
ready for all the flak from Starret collectors? Bob Swinney "Dan" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... I am just getting into metalworking, primarily with the aim of learning small-scale machining and steel brazing. I would eventually like to be able to fabricate small bicycle parts, such as shift levers and the like. After reading through the "Home Machinist Handbook" I am still just slightly confused about what pieces of equipment and hand tools I will need. Very tough question. The best place to start would be to take a course at a local college or high school. For hand tools Ebay is your friend. You can save some big bucks by buying there. Watch the auctions for a couple of weeks and get a feel for prices and condition of items, then go ahead and bid. Don't fall in love with anything, and don't get into a bidding war. For hand tools I would start with something like this: 0-1" Micrometer. - Look for one in new or near new condition with carbide faces that reads in "tenths" (.0001"). My experience is that people overpay for the Starrett name, and there are better micrometers than theirs by far, I'm not saying don't buy their stuff, just don't overpay. No matter what item Starrett makes I can give you a brand that is superior, and often sells for less on Ebay. Look for Etalon, Tesa, Helios, Mitutoyo, Starrett, or Brown & Sharpe for a micrometer. (I never liked B&S mikes myself). Older brands that are good - Lufkin, Scheer Tumico, J.T.Slocomb. A Slocomb Speedmike in good shape would be great for a beginner. They usually go for around ten to fifteen bucks in like new condition. Older Craftsman (Sears) micrometers that were made in Germany and Japan were made by Helios, and Mitutoyo. Any Craftsman made after the mid 80's is usually junk. Another option would be a digital mike. Mitutoyos are pretty affordable, and they are probably the best. Add 1-2", 2-3", 3-4" as budget permits. Six+ inch Vernier caliper, dial caliper, digital caliper. Wether you go with a vernier, dial, or digital is really up to you. I would be very leery about buying this tool used. The potential for abuse and damage is pretty high. Often there are new ones listed and I would wait for one of these. The brands I would look for would be: Digital (good accuracy)- Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharpe, Starrett. Dial (least accurate)- Brown & Sharpe (I like theirs best), Mitutoyo, Helios, Tesa, Etalon. I'm not wild about the Starret that I had, it was too soft. But if it's a good deal... Vernier (most accurate) - Starrett make a damn good vernier caliper. Etalon, Helios, and Brown & Sharpe are also very good. Mitutoyos are a little light and don't have as good of a feel as the others. Square - Buy a good quality six inch machinist square. Or make one with a file and band saw like they made me do back in the old days. Well you'd still need a good square to check it against, or a surface plate. Ahh, just buy one. Combination Square - Buy a Starrett or Miyutoyo four piece (Center finder, protrator, square, and rule). Be aware that there are different grades, you want precision, not carpentry. Get a 12" blade for starters. Add longer and shorter blades later as you find them. Calipers, compass, assorted lay out tools. - You can get these cheap on Ebay. Look for someone auctioning off an assortment. You will get a better deal that way. Center Punch - You'll need one for lay out work. This is a great lathe project for your new lathe. Carbide scribe - General is as good as anything. Actually you can buy most any brand, and it will be OK. Six inch scale - Starrett or Mitutoyo. Older Lufkins and General's in good shape are OK too. Dial Test Indicater - I've used them all, and I use them often, so I'm a bit of a DTI snob. I would buy a .0005" and a .0001". If your budget is tight buy the .0005". In order of quality - Compac, Brown & Sharpe Best Test, Interapid, Mitutoyo. The Mitutoyo is just OK. Every other brand I've used has proven over time to be junk. Starrett, Gem, Peacock, Teclock, Pic, etc.. All junk. Spend money wisely on this tool. You will also want an assortment of adapters for your DTI. Magnetic base - I've used them all. Starrett mag bases are the nicest. But I would buy a cheap knock off, that has an on/off switch and a V in the base. Make sure it has a fine adjust knob. I would also buy a very small China one that is not switchable. They are around ten bucks and worth every penny. Dial indicater - Buy a .001" to start. Get at least one inch travel. Two inch would be better. This will likely be your "DRO" on your first lathe for a while. Buy a tip assortment and a test stand as budget permits. Make sure you have the adapters you need to use this with your mag bases. Files - Buy good quality assorted files, and file handles. I like Nicholson myself. Also get a file card to clan the files with. You'll be surprised how often you use this lowly tool. Hack saw - same as above. Tap handles and die stock. - Sooner or later you'll want to put a thead on or in something. Drill assortment - You'll be wanting to put holes in stuff. If you buy a good quality U.S. brand you'll never regret spending the extra money. Dykem - Get a bottle for lay out work. Power hand tools - A good sabre saw, sawz-all, VSR drill, and a Dremel are all handy to have. There are tons of other tools you'll need or want, but this will give you a good start. I assume at minimum I am going to need a lathe and a mill, but am a bit baffled by the variety of these, particularly in terms of price for the micro/desktop units (from around $350 all the way up to $5000). The sort of questions I have a is it reasonable to buy a combo lathe/mill unit, or is it better to have dedicated equipment? Is the low-end stuff (Harbor Freight) decent enough to get going or is it a waste of money? If I know I eventually may want CNC capability, what is the best mill to buy for the money? If you have the room and power, I would buy a used industrial knee mill. Look for a used good quality mill. If it were my money I wouldn't buy a Bridgeport. They are the most popular and command a premium which is not deserved based on quality or rigidity. Look for a good quality lesser known brand. Gorton, Alliant, Sharp, Atrump, Wells-Index, Induma, etc.. I recently saw a very nice (spotless table, good chrome) Alliant with a DRO, work light, vise, collets, and some tooling sell for around $1,000.00 on Ebay. Same week an old round ram Bridgeport that looked hammered to death and worn out sell for over $2,500.00 with no extras. I would start with a knee mill, you can use it as a lathe in a pinch. Try and find a deal that includes a vise, collets, and some tooling. All that stuff adds up. Bonus for DRO, indexing head, rotary table, clamp set, or boring head. As for a lathe, a toolmakers lathe would be nice but they are pretty spendy. Monarch EE, Hardinge HLV, or a Harrison AA. All hard to find and all fairly expensive. SO, an engine lathe would be your best bet. I like a 14" X 40", but that might be a bit big for your needs. South Bend and Logans are easy to find, many of them are set up for household current. I recently saw a bunch of Nardini lathes being auctioned from a school. Something like that would be a good way to go as well. I would want a machine that has the ability to power feed and thread. I think good industrial quality used is better than low quality new, but to each their own. Look for something that includes a three jaw chuck, four jaw chuck, steady rest, functioning tail stock, tool post and some tooling. Bonus for 5C collet closer, quick change tool post, DRO, coolant pump, Drill chuck, and toolholders. Also, what other types of fabrication equipment are generally found to be indispensible for making things like, say, specialty washers, pulleys, ratchet gears/catches, etc.? Lathe and mill will do most of that stuff. For high quality gears you would need a hobber, not really a home shop kind of thing, but if you are making them in quantity, it might be worth looking in to an old one. The tooling would be a killer though. If you're serious about all this, a surface grinder might be in order. You can use it to make and sharpen tools, as well as grind tight tolerance parts you might want to make. At the very least you should get a pedestal grinder and a belt sander. A broad (perhaps stupid) question, I know, but I am just not finding a complete answer in my books or other sources, so thought I just go ahead and seek advice from those who know, since I really do not want to waste money on tools or capability I simply don't need. Any input appreciated. Again, taking a course will give you a better idea of what you'll need. If you buy good equipment and get a good deal on it, you should have no problem selling it later. You'll be out freight costs which can be considerable. Dan |
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#7
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At the risk of offending the "Old Iron" contingent, I would recommend
you start with an Asian 7Xwhatever minilathe, and the companion minimill. I cannot think of a bicycle part that will not fit into the work envelope of these machines. Personally, I have a Logan lathe and an Atlas, and I looked at a Rockwell lathe yesterday. I like to tinker with this stuff, restoring them to near-new. But if my aim was to get tools capable of machining small items quickly, it's hard to beat the Chink stuff on bang-for-buck. And support for these is all over the web. If I were buying today, I'd look at the Cummins lathe (comes with most accessories) or the Homier, cheapest, but buy the $99 accessory kit. One step up may be the Lathemaster 8x14, which appears to be heavier overall. The minimill from Homier is $399, no reason to pay more. The Homier usually has an R8 spindle (ask), which is generally preferred, but there may be some value in buying a minimill with MT3 spindle so you can share tools with the lathe, which has MT3. So for about $1000 you'd have the basic machinery. Dan's list of measuring devices and small tools is priceless - print it out and start shopping. wrote: I am just getting into metalworking, primarily with the aim of learning small-scale machining and steel brazing. I would eventually like to be able to fabricate small bicycle parts, such as shift levers and the like. After reading through the "Home Machinist Handbook" I am still just slightly confused about what pieces of equipment and hand tools I will need. I assume at minimum I am going to need a lathe and a mill, but am a bit baffled by the variety of these, particularly in terms of price for the micro/desktop units (from around $350 all the way up to $5000). The sort of questions I have a is it reasonable to buy a combo lathe/mill unit, or is it better to have dedicated equipment? Is the low-end stuff (Harbor Freight) decent enough to get going or is it a waste of money? If I know I eventually may want CNC capability, what is the best mill to buy for the money? Also, what other types of fabrication equipment are generally found to be indispensible for making things like, say, specialty washers, pulleys, ratchet gears/catches, etc.? A broad (perhaps stupid) question, I know, but I am just not finding a complete answer in my books or other sources, so thought I just go ahead and seek advice from those who know, since I really do not want to waste money on tools or capability I simply don't need. Any input appreciated. |
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#8
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On 23 Jan 2005 10:38:43 -0800,
wrote: I am just getting into metalworking,snip I am still just slightly confused about what pieces of equipment and hand tools I will need. I assume at minimum I am going to need a lathe and a mill, snip Suggestion that you take a machining class at a local community college should be followed. There are many safety considerations, not all of which are obvious. In addition, a course will greatly shorten your initial learning curve. It will also give you an opportunity to see if you like machining at minimal cost and to interact with other people who are interested in machining. Taking classes will give you the opportunity to operate several different machines, and use the schools tooling. The first class will cover not only safety but basic operations and some simple projects, the second class should give you an opportunity of do one or more projects of you own which will let you see what types/sizes of equipment are required for your particular areas of interest. Many tools that are vital for one class/type of work, are "frou-frou juice" in others, and not used at all in many more. I discourage my students from buying any tools other than a 6-inch scale, and possibly 6-inch calipers and a 0-1 inch micrometer before they have had a chance to get some "hands on" making some of the items they are interested in. Inexpensive, apprentice level tools will be adequate to start. I suggest a 5R or 16R graduated scale as this gives you both fraction and decimal measuring capabilities. Wholesale Tool [ http://www.wttool.com ] has sets for $16.95 that are a good value for the money. As you mentioned bicycle parts, you may be interested in metric rather than [or in addition to] inch measurement. See their SKU 1266-0200 for inch and 1266-0215 for metric. The fit and feel of the top of the line tools such as B&S, Starrett, etc. are vastly superior, but it will be a while before your skill level is adequate to detect the difference. One item that is basic to most machining is a dial [drop] indicator. Wholesale Tool, Enco and most other tool suppliers will have specials for a 0-1 inch X 0.001 indicators, magnetic bases, and contact point sets for 20$. Most likely you will want to also get a "mighty mag" style magnetic base. If you have a lathe, you have a milling machine. Palmgren makes a special adapter [see http://www.campbelltools.com/palmgren.html for picture] that mounts on the cross slide that will let you do a considerable amount of milling. The "cube" is limited, but can be adequate for many projects. An inexpensive angle block will allow you to mount your lathe compound (top) slide as a vertical milling slide and an appropriate vise can be fabricated or adapted. Given that you are interested in craft machining I suggest that you purchase some of the Lindsay reprint books. [see http://www.lindsaybks.com/ ]. I suggest Milne's Machine Shop Methods as your first book. [see 22237] as a good introduction to manual machining. Lindsay also has both the Gingery and Chastain foundry books which I found to be very good. I don't do welding, but people that do have indicated the Lindsay welding books are also top quality. GmcD |
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#9
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"Robert Swinney" wrote in message ... Very nice reply, Dan! IMO, you pretty much tell it like it is. But are you ready for all the flak from Starret collectors? There's nothing wrong with Starrett. I own a lot of their stuff myself. It's just that you can often find as good or better for less money. There is not a week that goes by where I don't see a used Starrett item on Ebay sell for more money than a new one would cost from MSC or Travers.. I also have a bit of a unique perspective. I've been in hundreds maybe even thousands of shops all over the country installing, training and doing machine acceptance run-offs on new high end CNC machines. So, I get to use just about every piece of metrology equipment made. On top of that, often whether the machine passes the run off or not, is very much dependent on my customers ability to measure the part consistently and correctly. Often these parts have .0003" total tolerance on a diameter. I also have to be able to indicate a machine in to .0001" or better. How else can you drill a .006" hole? So, I'm a big believer in a good DTI, and good basic tools. I also collect old machinist and tool and die tools. I'm also trying to collect at least one example of a 0-1" or 0-25mm micrometer from every manufacturer in the world. Right now I'm leaving the Chinese and private label Chinese stuff out. But, I'll probably add a Chuan at some point, but I'm after harder to find brands now. Maybe I'll post a list here someday, to see if anyone can come up with brands that I'm missing. The questions that the OP poses are not easy to answer by any means. I'm thinking he might not be happy with the quality of bike parts available to him. I mean it's not like he will ever save any money building them himself when you consider the investment cost in machinery alone. So if he's after smoother more precise components, he'll need to start out with good tools. He should know Starrett isn't the only option. Dan |
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#10
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Thank you all very much for the advice. I particularly appreciate the
detailed responses on hand tools. It is all good information for me to absorb. My interest is particularly piqued about the idea for doing aluminum sand casting. I'd thought CNC milling would be the way I'd fabricate difficult/compound pieces, but casting is definately something to look into. The most common method for modern bicycle parts manufacture is cold forging, but small makers do casting and milling. I would love to hear entry-level advice from anyone that's done sand casting. From what I understand, one can get set-up fairly innexpensively. I will steer clear of the combo tools (lathe/mill). It seems like it is better to have dedicated units. I can probably only spend in the $1,500 neighborhood for both. Given that price range, are there any recommendations for brand/model? I'm an old pro at Ebay, and have already been doing some looking there. Can't entrely figure-out the best categories under which to look, but getting better. Point(s) taken on the Starret tools. They look great but boy are they expensive. Maybe I will buy Starret for the most precision-oriented tools, but opt for something cheaper for those items where high precision is less important, or the tool isn't as apt to see frequent use. Thanks again. Any further commenting on these points would be much appreciated. Hopefully I can contribute materially to this group in the future. |
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#11
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In article , Dan wrote:
wrote in message roups.com... I am just getting into metalworking, primarily with the aim of learning small-scale machining and steel brazing. I would eventually like to be able to fabricate small bicycle parts, such as shift levers and the like. After reading through the "Home Machinist Handbook" I am still just slightly confused about what pieces of equipment and hand tools I will need. Very tough question. The best place to start would be to take a course at a local college or high school. For hand tools Ebay is your friend. You can save some big bucks by buying there. Watch the auctions for a couple of weeks and get a feel for prices and condition of items, then go ahead and bid. Don't fall in love with anything, and don't get into a bidding war. For hand tools I would start with something like this: 0-1" Micrometer. - Look for one in new or near new condition with carbide faces that reads in "tenths" (.0001"). My experience is that people overpay for the Starrett name, and there are better micrometers than theirs by far, I'm not saying don't buy their stuff, just don't overpay. No matter what item Starrett makes I can give you a brand that is superior, and often sells for less on Ebay. Look for Etalon, Tesa, Helios, Mitutoyo, Starrett, or Brown & Sharpe for a micrometer. (I never liked B&S mikes myself). Older brands that are good - Lufkin, Scheer Tumico, J.T.Slocomb. A Slocomb Speedmike in good shape would be great for a beginner. They usually go for around ten to fifteen bucks in like new condition. Older Craftsman (Sears) micrometers that were made in Germany and Japan were made by Helios, and Mitutoyo. Any Craftsman made after the mid 80's is usually junk. FWIW -- the Craftsman micrometers offered in the late 1960s and early 1970s were actually made by Scherr-Tumico. I have a set from 0-3" purchased individually during that period. And also note that the later B&S micrometers were actually made by Tesa, and are quite good. I agree about the older B&S micrometers, and I have a 0-6" set. :-) Note that *any* micrometer past the 0-1" range will *need* a "standard" a setting (calibration) rod to properly zero it. Otherwise, you are just closing on air, with no way to verify the zero. So -- beyond the 0-1" range, an eBay auction which includes standards for the micrometers is better than one which does not, because new aftermarket purchase can be expensive. While you're about it -- look for ones with the wrench needed to zero -- to compensate for temperature changes -- or in *extreme* cases, for wear. Another option would be a digital mike. Mitutoyos are pretty affordable, and they are probably the best. Add 1-2", 2-3", 3-4" as budget permits. If my guess about the current world of bicycle work is right, there is one feature of the digitals which will be a *major* help. That is the ability to switch between imperial (inch) and metric measurements at the touch of a button. This even allows you to convert a measurement in one system to another -- as the lathe is most likely marked in imperial, but the bicycle is likely at least part in metric. Note that there are micrometers with a mechanical digital readout in one system and a thimble calibrated in the other -- but getting the two zeros to agree can sometimes be a bit of a trick. For that matter, cutting metric threads on an imperial machine is a serious pain, as is the converse. Figure out which threads you will need to cut, and base the lathe purchase on the most frequent probable need. Six+ inch Vernier caliper, dial caliper, digital caliper. Wether you go with a vernier, dial, or digital is really up to you. Again -- the digital calipers make the conversion between the two systems very easy. But a good vernier should have scales for both systems. There *are* dial calipers with both systems, but the design is a bit of a kluge, and I would avoid those. Dial calipers are already too vulnerable to tiny metal chips getting into the rack gear and throwing them off by several thousandths -- *each* time you pass that point until you dig out a loupe and locate and pick out the chip. I would be very leery about buying this tool used. The potential for abuse and damage is pretty high. Often there are new ones listed and I would wait for one of these. I've gotten both Mitutoyo digital calipers and three brands of digital micrometers used from eBay. Starrett (0-1"), SPI (1-2") and Mitutoyo (another 0-1", to keep close to a second machine tool.) I also have an *old* Brown & Sharpe digital caliper which was really nice, but which uses mercury cells (PX-13) which are no longer made. That one is built around a glass scale in the bottom of the groove where a the rack gear would be on a dial. The other two have capacitance scales under the labels along the beam. Each can be flooded out by coolant or oil under the wrong conditions, but the capacitance ones are easy to wipe clean and have work again. The glass scale takes a bit more careful work -- it was easiest to clean back when spray cans of Freon TF were available, but that went the way of mercury cells. :-) The brands I would look for would be: Digital (good accuracy)- Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharpe, Starrett. Dial (least accurate)- Brown & Sharpe (I like theirs best), Mitutoyo, Helios, Tesa, Etalon. I'm not wild about the Starret that I had, it was too soft. But if it's a good deal... Vernier (most accurate) - Starrett make a damn good vernier caliper. Etalon, Helios, and Brown & Sharpe are also very good. Mitutoyos are a little light and don't have as good of a feel as the others. I don't have any of the Mitutoyo dial calipers. I do have Helios (4"), Starrett (0-150 mm), and a cheap Chinese (Phase-II, IIRC) 0-6". They all get very little use these days -- with the digitals getting the most use -- including occasional use of a Mitutoyo 0-12" (0-600mm), which is a bit large for everyday use, but there are times when it is all that will do the job. [ ... ] Combination Square - Buy a Starrett or Miyutoyo four piece (Center finder, protrator, square, and rule). Be aware that there are different grades, you want precision, not carpentry. Get a 12" blade for starters. Add longer and shorter blades later as you find them. Agreed. Note that there is one other feature to choose between quality combination squares. Most have the non-reversible protractor head (the protractor head is only on one side of the scale). However, some have the reversible head (protractor on both sides -- useful when laying out symmetrical angles, but there are some settings it won't reach without reversing, while the non-reversible will set to *any* angle without hindrance. Having the non-reversible to start, and if you find yourself needing it, get a reversible head from the same manufacturer. (Heads and scales from different manufacturers don't always interchange. Calipers, compass, assorted lay out tools. - You can get these cheap on Ebay. Look for someone auctioning off an assortment. You will get a better deal that way. Include a hermaphrodyte (odd-leg) caliper in this collection. It is nice for laying out distances from an edge. Center Punch - You'll need one for lay out work. This is a great lathe project for your new lathe. Yep. Actually -- make (or buy) several. A "pick" punch (sharp angle) for feeling intersecting layout lines and making a starting location, and several heavier center punches for various sizes of work. Carbide scribe - General is as good as anything. Actually you can buy most any brand, and it will be OK. Agreed. There are hardened steel ones as well. The very long and potentially fragile point on the Starrett carbide tipped scribe reverses into the handle for safe storage (safe for it, and safe for you. :-) Six inch scale - Starrett or Mitutoyo. Older Lufkins and General's in good shape are OK too. Go for both the rigid wider style (3/4" wide) and the flexible narrow style (1/2" wide). Both have their uses. One for the thin flexible one is indicating whether a lathe tool is at the proper height. (See other articles for this, or ask once you have your lathe -- this is getting too long.) [ ... ] Magnetic base - I've used them all. Starrett mag bases are the nicest. But I would buy a cheap knock off, that has an on/off switch and a V in the base. Make sure it has a fine adjust knob. Note that there are times when a mag base with a fine adjust is just too flexible. This is especially true if you have a long travel dial indicator on it. I would also buy a very small China one that is not switchable. They are around ten bucks and worth every penny. Dial indicater - Buy a .001" to start. Get at least one inch travel. Two inch would be better. This will likely be your "DRO" on your first lathe for a while. Buy a tip assortment and a test stand as budget permits. Make sure you have the adapters you need to use this with your mag bases. Agreed. Files - Buy good quality assorted files, and file handles. I like Nicholson myself. Also get a file card to clan the files with. You'll be surprised how often you use this lowly tool. One thing which might not be obvious at first is that there are files called "safe edge" files. One or two edges will be smooth, allowing you to file up to a right angle inside without affecting the other side of the corner. Lots of other strange shapes for certain kinds of work, too. Hack saw - same as above. Tap handles and die stock. - Sooner or later you'll want to put a thead on or in something. Though I suspect that you will be needing more often to make threads which are non-standard diameters -- for weird thin nuts to hold sprocket wheels on and the like. For those, you won't be able to find a die or a tap, and will have to "single point" the threads -- cut them using the lathe's gearing to move the cutter. This is where the difference between metric and imperial can really bite you. As mentioned above, cutting metric threads on an imperial lathe is a pain (if you can find the transposition gears), and the same applies to cutting imperial threads on a metric lathe. It *can* be done, but you will lose a lot of time compared to doing it with the right system. The only thing which does not experience this problem is a CNC lathe, where the threading (and everything else) is done under computer control. (O.K. I can imagine a manual lathe with two leadscrews and two gearboxes, but if such exists, it will not be affordable. :-) Drill assortment - You'll be wanting to put holes in stuff. If you buy a good quality U.S. brand you'll never regret spending the extra money. Agreed. Dykem - Get a bottle for lay out work. Two -- the more common blue, and also red. Some colors work better on one material, some on another. And having two colors can help at other times, too. Power hand tools - A good sabre saw, sawz-all, VSR drill, and a Dremel are all handy to have. For that matter, a "$200 horizontal/vertical bandsaw" for cutting off stock. The name is old, and the price is around $160.00 more often these days. Cheap imports, but they work pretty well until you put a *lot* of stock through them. There are tons of other tools you'll need or want, but this will give you a good start. I assume at minimum I am going to need a lathe and a mill, but am a bit baffled by the variety of these, particularly in terms of price for the micro/desktop units (from around $350 all the way up to $5000). The sort of questions I have a is it reasonable to buy a combo lathe/mill unit, or is it better to have dedicated equipment? Is the low-end stuff (Harbor Freight) decent enough to get going or is it a waste of money? If I know I eventually may want CNC capability, what is the best mill to buy for the money? If you have the room and power, I would buy a used industrial knee mill. Amen. Look for a used good quality mill. If it were my money I wouldn't buy a Bridgeport. They are the most popular and command a premium which is not deserved based on quality or rigidity. Look for a good quality lesser known brand. Gorton, Alliant, Sharp, Atrump, Wells-Index, Induma, etc.. I recently saw a very nice (spotless table, good chrome) Alliant with a DRO, work light, vise, collets, and some tooling sell for around $1,000.00 on Ebay. Same week an old round ram Bridgeport that looked hammered to death and worn out sell for over $2,500.00 with no extras. I would start with a knee mill, you can use it as a lathe in a pinch. Try and find a deal that includes a vise, collets, and some tooling. All that stuff adds up. Bonus for DRO, indexing head, rotary table, clamp set, or boring head. As for a lathe, a toolmakers lathe would be nice but they are pretty spendy. Monarch EE, Hardinge HLV, or a Harrison AA. All hard to find and all fairly expensive. SO, an engine lathe would be your best bet. I like a 14" X 40", but that might be a bit big for your needs. South Bend and Logans are easy to find, many of them are set up for household current. I recently saw a bunch of Nardini lathes being auctioned from a school. Something like that would be a good way to go as well. I would want a machine that has the ability to power feed and thread. I think good industrial quality used is better than low quality new, but to each their own. Look for something that includes a three jaw chuck, four jaw chuck, steady rest, functioning tail stock, tool post and some tooling. Bonus for 5C collet closer, quick change tool post, DRO, coolant pump, Drill chuck, and toolholders. If inch threading will work for you, a 12x24" Clausing can be a nice choice -- if it is new enough (e.g. 1957 or so) to have a 1-3/8" through hole in the spindle, so you can use 5C collets and drawbars for production runs on stock fed through the spindle. Also, what other types of fabrication equipment are generally found to be indispensible for making things like, say, specialty washers, pulleys, ratchet gears/catches, etc.? Lathe and mill will do most of that stuff. For high quality gears you would need a hobber, not really a home shop kind of thing, but if you are making them in quantity, it might be worth looking in to an old one. The tooling would be a killer though. An alternative would be to add a good dividing head to the collection to use with the mill. That, with the right cutters can make pretty good gears (not as good as true hobber, but still pretty good), and the same for the ratchets. A horizontal spindle mill will be nicer for this, but you can use a vertical spindle with a but more care. As for making the pawls to engage ratchets, you might find a die filer (if you can find the files for it) to be an assistance in getting the shapes right. If you're serious about all this, a surface grinder might be in order. You can use it to make and sharpen tools, as well as grind tight tolerance parts you might want to make. At the very least you should get a pedestal grinder and a belt sander. Agreed. How much potential shop space do you have? A broad (perhaps stupid) question, I know, but I am just not finding a complete answer in my books or other sources, so thought I just go ahead and seek advice from those who know, since I really do not want to waste money on tools or capability I simply don't need. Any input appreciated. Again, taking a course will give you a better idea of what you'll need. If you buy good equipment and get a good deal on it, you should have no problem selling it later. You'll be out freight costs which can be considerable. Agreed. Good luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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In article , DoN. Nichols says...
Six inch scale - Starrett or Mitutoyo. Older Lufkins and General's in good shape are OK too. Go for both the rigid wider style (3/4" wide) and the flexible narrow style (1/2" wide). Both have their uses. One for the thin flexible one is indicating whether a lathe tool is at the proper height. (See other articles for this, or ask once you have your lathe -- this is getting too long.) I purchased a lot of tools at an estate sale, and among them was a large selection of steel scales - of varying lenghts. The shorter ones have actually turned out to be quite handy. Just right for measuring inside things, and also easier to carry around if it has to come along with to the hardware store. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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