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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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propane tank as air tank?
Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air
tanks? I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane tanks? Cheers, Wizard |
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Jason D. wrote:
Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air tanks? I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane tanks? Cheers, Wizard The concensus of what I've heard is that while propane tanks will stand the pressure, they are not as thick walled as tanks designed for air service. Thus they will rust out much faster if the air in them isn't thoroughly dry, something that's not to easy to achieve if you're planning on using them for air compressor storage tanks. Unless you stand them upside down it won't be easy to add a water drain valve either. I did use a 20 lb bottle for several years as an emergency "air pig" for occassionally filling a flat tire. I installed a kit I purchased for about $15 which replaced the propane tank valve with a new valve with a pressure relief, a Schrader (tire valve) filler port, and a 2 foot hose with a tire valve chuck on its end. After reading comments to the contrary here and elsewhere I chucked it and spent $29.95 on a genuine air pig. HTH, Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public schools" |
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I'd try for an odd-ball vehicular propane tank, much heavier wall--try
some propane distributors , see what they have and/or will refer you to an installation/conversion shop. calls to auto salvage yards might turn up something 20-30 gals. The little 20-40Lb tanks are too thin-walled--rust out quick--put water drain in bottom!! "Jason D." wrote: Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air tanks? I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane tanks? Cheers, Wizard |
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In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote: The concensus of what I've heard is that while propane tanks will stand the pressure, they are not as thick walled as tanks designed for air service. Thus they will rust out much faster if the air in them isn't thoroughly dry, something that's not to easy to achieve if you're planning on using them for air compressor storage tanks. Unless you stand them upside down it won't be easy to add a water drain valve either. I did use a 20 lb bottle for several years as an emergency "air pig" for occassionally filling a flat tire. I installed a kit I purchased for about $15 which replaced the propane tank valve with a new valve with a pressure relief, a Schrader (tire valve) filler port, and a 2 foot hose with a tire valve chuck on its end. After reading comments to the contrary here and elsewhere I chucked it and spent $29.95 on a genuine air pig. I use several 20# tanks as air pigs, no problem as the air is always dry. If I used them on a compressor I would mount them upside down. For an adapter I just bought a brass plug and drilled a hole and tapped it 1/4" FNPT For portable air pigs I like the discarded Helium tanks of the same size but much lighter weight but the valve is not as good. -- Free men own guns, slaves don't www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/ |
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I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill
station, as it was not OPD. Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying back & forth for refills. They have a working pressure of 240 psi. Bob |
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Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air
tanks? I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane tanks? Cheers, Wizard If you are buying new, why not buy air tanks? Ron Thompson On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA http://www.plansandprojects.com The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. --Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903) |
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Go to the archives for any big-city newspaper and look up some of the
spectacular air compressor tank explosions of the past. There is a reason why air storage tanks are spec-ed and certified. The only thing dumber than using an odd-ball tank is plumbing air with PVC pipe. Jason D. wrote: Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air tanks? I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane tanks? Cheers, Wizard |
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Tim Killian wrote:
Go to the archives for any big-city newspaper and look up some of the spectacular air compressor tank explosions of the past. There is a reason why air storage tanks are spec-ed and certified. The only thing dumber than using an odd-ball tank is plumbing air with PVC pipe. I should explain (at the risk of repeating myself) that my skepticism about doing non-spec things involving compressed gasses, as expressed earlier in this thread, stems from about 50 years ago. I lost a friend in my scuba diving club when he carelessly used a cast iron 3/4" to 1/2" pipe thread reducing bushing to fit a "diving valve" to a CO2 fire extinguisher bottle. Lots of us used fire extinguisher bottles as diving tanks back then. The threads on that bushing sheared the first time he was filling the tank and the valve blew out and hit him under his chin and continued into his brain, killing him on the spot. The poor guy didn't understand the shear strengths of different materials. He'd probably still be alive if he'd used a steel bushing, or maybe even a brass one, but he should have NEVER used cast iron. I have the sand cast aluminum "license plate emblem" with our diving club's logo on it, which came from his car, nailed to my garage wall. I still think of him every time I look at it, even though I haven't had a scuba tank on my back for at least 40 years now. Just my .02, Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public schools" Jason D. wrote: Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air tanks? I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane tanks? Cheers, Wizard -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public schools" |
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In article , Tim Killian says...
Go to the archives for any big-city newspaper and look up some of the spectacular air compressor tank explosions of the past. There is a reason why air storage tanks are spec-ed and certified. Not all of them are. There are plenty of air compressor tanks and tire inflator tanks sold that are *not* ASME certified. I used a brand-new propane tank as part of my air storage farm, since then I added a tire inflator tank. But I do know that I have an ASME hard-seat blow-off valve on the tanks. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Tim Killian wrote:
The only thing dumber than using an odd-ball tank ... Propane tanks are not "odd ball". They *are* compressed gas tanks, with DOT specs. Working pressure 240 psi, test pressure 480 psi, design burst pressure 960 psi. Depending upon the ambient temperature, propane in a tank is 110 - 130 psi, sort of. Single stage, home-use compressed air is generally not more than 100 psi. Bob |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:24:51 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: Tim Killian wrote: The only thing dumber than using an odd-ball tank ... Propane tanks are not "odd ball". They *are* compressed gas tanks, with DOT specs. Working pressure 240 psi, test pressure 480 psi, design burst pressure 960 psi. Depending upon the ambient temperature, propane in a tank is 110 - 130 psi, sort of. Single stage, home-use compressed air is generally not more than 100 psi. That's exactly my thoughts as well. On top of that I've cut into more than one commercially built "air tank" and been surprised and concerned on how thin they are. A fact that can be confirmed by just weighing a similar sized air tank compared to a empty propane tank. My commercially made and sold 10 gallon tire inflator tank doesn't weigh as much as even my newest small propane tank (and older tanks are often much heavier). On top of that my portable air tank doesn't have any way of draining moisture either so why the concern about propane tanks in this application. Now as a compressor tank something needs to be done but as has been stated many times in the past mounting it upside down with appropriate drain fittings attached will cure that problem (though it might make for slightly wetter air coming out than a normal tank). Now one tank I will not use for a portable air tank is old freon tanks. I used them back when I didn't know any better but after cutting into one of them I'm almost scared to even carry them with freon in them. Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook |
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:35:33 -0800, "Jerry J. Wass"
wrote: I'd try for an odd-ball vehicular propane tank, much heavier wall--try some propane distributors , see what they have and/or will refer you to an installation/conversion shop. calls to auto salvage yards might turn up something 20-30 gals. The little 20-40Lb tanks are too thin-walled--rust out quick--put water drain in bottom!! Too thin walled? If thin, they'd not be ASME certified? I thought most air containers has them lined for rust protection? Now, what about the true air tanks? I have to replace that portable old horizontal tank, appox 10-12 gal with feet attached or portable tank with wheels removed. I do have Graingers place on same block where our shop is but their price for a 11 gal portable tank with mount platform for compressor and motor for about 240 canadian. I think this is bit highway robbery. By the way this one is ASME certified. How can I tell this pop-off valve is hard seat type? Graingers catalog leaves much to be desired on info. Keep them coming, your comments are great! New proper commerical quality portable appox 10gal compressor is over 1,600 canadian. Not the 600 home depot quality, we use it 6 days a week on all the time for ready air availablity. Our shop doesn't have this kind of money but I'm making sure this air compressor is done properly. Yes I do have the air valve, air regulator, old shutoff switch that was hacked together. I rather get a new switch with manual switch cut off. Need to get pop-off valve! Cheers, Wizard |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:18:04 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote: That's exactly my thoughts as well. On top of that I've cut into more than one commercially built "air tank" and been surprised and concerned on how thin they are. A fact that can be confirmed by just weighing a similar sized air tank compared to a empty propane tank. My commercially made and sold 10 gallon tire inflator tank doesn't weigh as much as even my newest small propane tank (and older tanks are often much heavier). On top of that my portable air tank doesn't have any way of draining moisture either so why the concern about propane tanks in this application. Now as a compressor tank something needs to be done but as has been stated many times in the past mounting it upside down with appropriate drain fittings attached will cure that problem (though it might make for slightly wetter air coming out than a normal tank). My 30# tank is mounted upside down with angle iron frames for base and compressor. Plumbing is 3/4" nipple & tee with side inlet from another tee, up is check valve, down is drain. Down on the first tee is plugged with feed through outlet from the mid point of the tank space to avoid any contaminants that may have settled in the bottom area. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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I have a 25# propane tank that I use from time to time. Had several with the
old styly valves that could not be refilled so I just rigged up a POL fitting with a cross, with a schrader valve, a pressure gauge and a hose QD fitting. Works great. Heavier than the freon bottles I have used in the past. Why convert? Just couldn't see the perfectly good propane tanks go to waste and it was not worth the expense to change the valve out to the new style |
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any ideas as to where to find such a kit to convert now days? Sounds like
something that would work really well for me. "Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message ... Jason D. wrote: Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air tanks? I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane tanks? Cheers, Wizard The concensus of what I've heard is that while propane tanks will stand the pressure, they are not as thick walled as tanks designed for air service. Thus they will rust out much faster if the air in them isn't thoroughly dry, something that's not to easy to achieve if you're planning on using them for air compressor storage tanks. Unless you stand them upside down it won't be easy to add a water drain valve either. I did use a 20 lb bottle for several years as an emergency "air pig" for occassionally filling a flat tire. I installed a kit I purchased for about $15 which replaced the propane tank valve with a new valve with a pressure relief, a Schrader (tire valve) filler port, and a 2 foot hose with a tire valve chuck on its end. After reading comments to the contrary here and elsewhere I chucked it and spent $29.95 on a genuine air pig. HTH, Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public schools" |
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Any valve that you replace the origional valve with will be a lesser valve.
Leave the valve in place, buy a mating POL fitting, hook it to a cross, add a schrader valve on one side, a pressure gauge on the second side and your discharge hose on the third and you have it made. Simple as it can be, |
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In article ,
(GMasterman) wrote: Any valve that you replace the origional valve with will be a lesser valve. Leave the valve in place, buy a mating POL fitting, hook it to a cross, add a schrader valve on one side, a pressure gauge on the second side and your discharge hose on the third and you have it made. Simple as it can be, Even simpler, put a male air fitting on the POL propane fitting. You can read the pressure by putting a standard tire pressure gage against the male QD and can use the tank by attaching a hose with gage, air chuck, and matching female air fitting. Refill the tank using the standard air hose with female fitting when you remove the sir chuck. -- Free men own guns, slaves don't www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/ |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 06:49:52 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill station, as it was not OPD. Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying back & forth for refills. They have a working pressure of 240 psi. Bob I have a really old one that I've been hanging onto to make one. 20# probably , sure could use one for the wife's car. 99lbs.psi shouldn't be a danger. I would think even though I was and still would be scared of pumping them up to190 like the A&P told me was safe as a kid. I would have made a couple of trips to the planes than take the full load of that air compressor. Then again he hated me ... |
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HEY, THANKS for the bleach tip!! Haven't really started using this one yet,
Pumped & dumped a few times, but could hardly notice the difference. the merc sure does linger. Bob Engelhardt wrote: I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill station, as it was not OPD. Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying back & forth for refills. They have a working pressure of 240 psi. Bob |
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It sure does. I use 200ml to scent 8,000 gallons of butane. It's some strong
stuff, and can make you puke if you are downwind when I'm injecting it into the system. It comes in 50ml glass bottles with wax seal and screw cap, with dessicant, inside a sealed metal pop-top can, inside a plastic bag, inside a dessicant filled larger plastic bag, inside a sealed cardboard box. You can still smell it through all that.... Tomato juice will knock down the smell somewhat if it gets on anything you don't want it on. RJ "Jerry J. Wass" wrote in message ... HEY, THANKS for the bleach tip!! Haven't really started using this one yet, Pumped & dumped a few times, but could hardly notice the difference. the merc sure does linger. Bob Engelhardt wrote: I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill station, as it was not OPD. Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying back & forth for refills. They have a working pressure of 240 psi. Bob |
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Since you work with mercaptin, I'd like to pick your brain a bit if
you don't mind. I have this small project I'd like to try where I'd bubble propane from a 20lb tank or natural gas from the house line from the bottom of my goldfish pond so that it burns at the surface. Kind of a floating flame effect. One thing that concerns me is that the mercaptin might build up in the water to toxic levels, either from the gas contacting the water directly via the bubbles or else from the film of soot that forms on the water surface (I've done some experimenting in a #10 tub already). Would you know anything about this, or know where I could find out? I looked up the MSDS on it, but I couldn't find out anything about concentrations in water affecting fish. Any comments or suggestions? Thanks Mike On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:46:25 -0500, "Backlash" wrote: It sure does. I use 200ml to scent 8,000 gallons of butane. It's some strong stuff, and can make you puke if you are downwind when I'm injecting it into the system. It comes in 50ml glass bottles with wax seal and screw cap, with dessicant, inside a sealed metal pop-top can, inside a plastic bag, inside a dessicant filled larger plastic bag, inside a sealed cardboard box. You can still smell it through all that.... Tomato juice will knock down the smell somewhat if it gets on anything you don't want it on. RJ "Jerry J. Wass" wrote in message ... HEY, THANKS for the bleach tip!! Haven't really started using this one yet, Pumped & dumped a few times, but could hardly notice the difference. the merc sure does linger. Bob Engelhardt wrote: I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill station, as it was not OPD. Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying back & forth for refills. They have a working pressure of 240 psi. Bob Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. "I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin |
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On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 17:14:53 -0500, Mike Patterson
wrote: Since you work with mercaptin, I'd like to pick your brain a bit if you don't mind. I have this small project I'd like to try where I'd bubble propane from a 20lb tank or natural gas from the house line from the bottom of my goldfish pond so that it burns at the surface. Kind of a floating flame effect. One thing that concerns me is that the mercaptin might build up in the water to toxic levels, either from the gas contacting the water directly via the bubbles or else from the film of soot that forms on the water surface (I've done some experimenting in a #10 tub already). Would you know anything about this, or know where I could find out? I looked up the MSDS on it, but I couldn't find out anything about concentrations in water affecting fish. Any comments or suggestions? Call Disneyland. Seriously. They bubble Natural Gas (with mercaptan as delivered) through the water in the river (from pipes on the bottom) and light it on the surface for the Fantasmic show twice a night. And AFAIK the fish that are in the river (to eat the mosquito larvae) are doing just fine, and it doesn't bother the Ducks, Coots, Herons or Egrets either. Well, except for potentially barbecuing the few new birds that do not know /not/ to be there when the show is running yet... They use a spark-lighter to ignite a 'pilot jet' from the bank out over the water to the end of the gas-bubbler pipe. It takes quite a bit of flame on the water to stay lit on it's own so they can turn off the pilot light. And of course, there's somebody there watching while the effect is running, with an E-stop button if things go wrong. You would only want to use Natural Gas for this, it's lighter than air so if the fire goes out it won't build up as easily. Propane can easily make a puddle of unburned gas that stays over the water surface and builds up, and when it finds an ignition source it can suddenly get VERY exciting. -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
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Mike, it sounds like Bruce has provided more info than I had in this
particular case. I might have to start looking at my fish pond, though.... RJ "Mike Patterson" wrote in message ... Since you work with mercaptin, I'd like to pick your brain a bit if you don't mind. I have this small project I'd like to try where I'd bubble propane from a 20lb tank or natural gas from the house line from the bottom of my goldfish pond so that it burns at the surface. Kind of a floating flame effect. One thing that concerns me is that the mercaptin might build up in the water to toxic levels, either from the gas contacting the water directly via the bubbles or else from the film of soot that forms on the water surface (I've done some experimenting in a #10 tub already). Would you know anything about this, or know where I could find out? I looked up the MSDS on it, but I couldn't find out anything about concentrations in water affecting fish. Any comments or suggestions? Thanks Mike On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:46:25 -0500, "Backlash" wrote: It sure does. I use 200ml to scent 8,000 gallons of butane. It's some strong stuff, and can make you puke if you are downwind when I'm injecting it into the system. It comes in 50ml glass bottles with wax seal and screw cap, with dessicant, inside a sealed metal pop-top can, inside a plastic bag, inside a dessicant filled larger plastic bag, inside a sealed cardboard box. You can still smell it through all that.... Tomato juice will knock down the smell somewhat if it gets on anything you don't want it on. RJ "Jerry J. Wass" wrote in message ... HEY, THANKS for the bleach tip!! Haven't really started using this one yet, Pumped & dumped a few times, but could hardly notice the difference. the merc sure does linger. Bob Engelhardt wrote: I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill station, as it was not OPD. Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying back & forth for refills. They have a working pressure of 240 psi. Bob Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. "I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin |
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Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
.... Propane can easily make a puddle of unburned gas that stays over the water surface and builds up, and when it finds an ignition source it can suddenly get VERY exciting. YES! What a great idea! Much cool-er than the "...floating flame effect" that Jerry was talking about. Depending upon the size of the pond, you could have pipes at random locations, giving off fwoosh'es or whoomp's of random intensities at random times. Could be a neat show. It won't take much of a breeze to create problems, though. And the ignition source might be a challenge. Hey, Chipmaker could do this in his pond, integrated with his fountains. Boy, that gets the teenage boy in me really excited. Bob |
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I have been looking to do this as well, as a sculpture for next year's
Burning Man festival, actually. The challenge is keeping it lit. What I have found is spa heater igniters. They use a thermocouple to decide if the flame is out, and then automatically spark to relight it. So my plan, (not yet tried), is to take one small pipe off of the underwater feed and direct it to the thermocouple. If it stays lit, it lights the rest of the gas, if it goes out, the igniter lights it and the pool of gas on the water's surface as well. Any thoughts? I am pretty committed to propane, I think, as it is easy to get, transport, etc. |
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On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:47:39 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote: On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 17:14:53 -0500, Mike Patterson wrote: Since you work with mercaptin, I'd like to pick your brain a bit if you don't mind. I have this small project I'd like to try where I'd bubble propane from a 20lb tank or natural gas from the house line from the bottom of my goldfish pond so that it burns at the surface. Kind of a floating flame effect. One thing that concerns me is that the mercaptin might build up in the water to toxic levels, either from the gas contacting the water directly via the bubbles or else from the film of soot that forms on the water surface (I've done some experimenting in a #10 tub already). Would you know anything about this, or know where I could find out? I looked up the MSDS on it, but I couldn't find out anything about concentrations in water affecting fish. Any comments or suggestions? Call Disneyland. Seriously. They bubble Natural Gas (with mercaptan as delivered) through the water in the river (from pipes on the bottom) and light it on the surface for the Fantasmic show twice a night. And AFAIK the fish that are in the river (to eat the mosquito larvae) are doing just fine, and it doesn't bother the Ducks, Coots, Herons or Egrets either. Well, except for potentially barbecuing the few new birds that do not know /not/ to be there when the show is running yet... They use a spark-lighter to ignite a 'pilot jet' from the bank out over the water to the end of the gas-bubbler pipe. It takes quite a bit of flame on the water to stay lit on it's own so they can turn off the pilot light. And of course, there's somebody there watching while the effect is running, with an E-stop button if things go wrong. You would only want to use Natural Gas for this, it's lighter than air so if the fire goes out it won't build up as easily. Propane can easily make a puddle of unburned gas that stays over the water surface and builds up, and when it finds an ignition source it can suddenly get VERY exciting. -- Bruce -- Thanks for the input! I've actually been looking at doing this for quite a while, reactions in rec.ponds tended towards excited versions of "YOU'LL POKE YOUR EYE OUT!!!". I've experimented with propane, and as you say it tends to hover at the surface of the water, and lighting off can be an adventure with a flashover kind of effect. Lost some forearm hair that way. It occurred to me that might kind of cool considering my pond is roughly kidney-shaped about 20 feet long and 15' wide with stepped rock sides. Let the gas build for a minute or two then hit the igniter... WHOOSH! and after the fireball there's the bubbling flame. Also heats the water pretty quickly, which might be a problem. I didn't know natural gas was lighter, that might work better, not leave the film of soot/crud on the surface like LP seems to do, also maybe reducing heating because the flame front would tend to be above the water rather than clinging to it. Here are a few pics of my experimenting: http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...ges/pond/fire/ Backing up to the parent directory you can see some pictures of the pond area this would go into. Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. "I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin |
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On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:28:21 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: Bruce L. Bergman wrote: ... Propane can easily make a puddle of unburned gas that stays over the water surface and builds up, and when it finds an ignition source it can suddenly get VERY exciting. YES! What a great idea! Much cool-er than the "...floating flame effect" that Jerry was talking about. Depending upon the size of the pond, you could have pipes at random locations, giving off fwoosh'es or whoomp's of random intensities at random times. Could be a neat show. It won't take much of a breeze to create problems, though. And the ignition source might be a challenge. Hey, Chipmaker could do this in his pond, integrated with his fountains. Boy, that gets the teenage boy in me really excited. Bob Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that wind -was- a problem during my experiments. As for ignition, I was planning to fasten a peizo sparker to the end of a rod. I wouldn't leave the flame on all the time, only during parties and whenever I was going to be hanging out in the area, so thrmocouples and auto-lighting and such wouldn't be an issue. pics of experiments: http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...ges/pond/fire/ go up to the parent directory to see pics of the pond area Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. "I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin |
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On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:37:57 -0500, Mike Patterson
calmly ranted: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that wind -was- a problem during my experiments. As for ignition, I was planning to fasten a peizo sparker to the end of a rod. I wouldn't leave the flame on all the time, only during parties and whenever I was going to be hanging out in the area, so thrmocouples and auto-lighting and such wouldn't be an issue. pics of experiments: http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...ges/pond/fire/ What's that I hear? "Hey, Y'all! WATCH THIS!" http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...e/DCP_0009.JPG (4' flame, tanks 2' away in a wind, riiiiiiight.) -------------------------------------------------------------------- I sent in my $5, so * http://www.diversify.com/stees.html why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts |
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:52:45 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:37:57 -0500, Mike Patterson calmly ranted: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that wind -was- a problem during my experiments. As for ignition, I was planning to fasten a peizo sparker to the end of a rod. I wouldn't leave the flame on all the time, only during parties and whenever I was going to be hanging out in the area, so thrmocouples and auto-lighting and such wouldn't be an issue. pics of experiments: http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...ges/pond/fire/ What's that I hear? "Hey, Y'all! WATCH THIS!" http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...e/DCP_0009.JPG (4' flame, tanks 2' away in a wind, riiiiiiight.) -------------------------------------------------------------------- I sent in my $5, so * http://www.diversify.com/stees.html why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts LOL! Thanks for your concern, and the reasoned and constructive input! I suppose that -if- there had been a massive gas leak that -happened- to be pointed towards the flame, and -if- the wind happened to blow the flame in -just- the right direction... oh, but that wind would also blow the escaping gas away from the flame front. And there was no leak. That was carefully checked before starting. FWIW, the tank is a bit farther away than the perspective makes it appear, and if the flame is 4' high then the tank is about 4' away and vice versa, though I understand your desire for poetic license. It just makes it sound a little better to exaggerate. I don't see how this rig is substantially different from a gas grill in which the burner is directly above the tank. On my SunBeam 450 Grill Master grill there are 3 openings in the bottom of the grill body beneath the burner, roughly 3"x5" in size, that are 14 inches -directly above- the tank valve/regulator assembly. I'm sure SunBeam would like your input... :-) Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. "I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin |
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:52:45 -0800, Larry Jaques
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Metal content All of the little grab handles that I have tried, like the one on the BBQ, have the handles bent so that the lower handle has the shrp side against your fingers when you try to lift that heavy, hot plate or pan! I actually do not see that what is happening there is _particluarly_ unsafe, compared to many BBQ situations.. What's that I hear? "Hey, Y'all! WATCH THIS!" http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...e/DCP_0009.JPG (4' flame, tanks 2' away in a wind, riiiiiiight.) -------------------------------------------------------------------- I sent in my $5, so * http://www.diversify.com/stees.html why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts |
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:32:59 -0500, Mike Patterson
calmly ranted: On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:52:45 -0800, Larry Jaques What's that I hear? "Hey, Y'all! WATCH THIS!" http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...e/DCP_0009.JPG (4' flame, tanks 2' away in a wind, riiiiiiight.) LOL! Thanks for your concern, and the reasoned and constructive input! Jewelcome. FWIW, the tank is a bit farther away than the perspective makes it appear, and if the flame is 4' high then the tank is about 4' away and OK, then it wasn't a Redneck Holiday pic after all. I apologize for my humorous and poetic license. vice versa, though I understand your desire for poetic license. It just makes it sound a little better to exaggerate. In that pic, it looked like the tank was less than a tank's height away while the flame was 1.5-2 times the tank height. Due to perspective, there was no intended exaggeration. I don't see how this rig is substantially different from a gas grill in which the burner is directly above the tank. Gas grills have regulators and 2" tall flames within a properly vented semi-enclosed area. If you don't see a difference, just say "Yee Haw!" On my SunBeam 450 Grill Master grill there are 3 openings in the bottom of the grill body beneath the burner, roughly 3"x5" in size, that are 14 inches -directly above- the tank valve/regulator assembly. I'm sure SunBeam would like your input... :-) They'd soil their drawers if they saw your pics. But HEY, _I_ like living dangerously, too. I rewire the house with the cables live, stand on the top of the ladder, climb on the roof without a safety rope, fly in helicopters, shoot machine guns, drive fast on curves, speed on the freeway, ride motorcycles, and all sorts of other fun stuff. I just don't show people -pictures- of how I do some of my more foolish antics. g But since the perspective was screwy in the pic, it wasn't a foolish antic after all. Carry on! -------------------------------------------------------- Murphy was an Optimist ---------------------------- http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development |
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