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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Electrical slip ring questions
I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid
operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Electrical slip ring questions
wrote in message
... I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0206s...ur-alternator/ "Most alternators need to spin at about 2,400 rpm at idle, have their maximum output above 6,000 rpm, and should never exceed 18,000 rpm." |
#3
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Electrical slip ring questions
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#4
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Electrical slip ring questions
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#6
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 2017-04-11, wrote:
I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. Is this 24 VDC or 24 VAC? Can you *use* AC? If so, mount a coil around the rotating shaft, and another one close to it to the stationary surrounds. If you make it well balanced, there should be no problems for transmitting AC. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric I would skip the idea of slip rings, as the electro-magnetic coupling will last pretty much forever. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#7
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:33:27 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:18:16 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:46:24 -0700, wrote: I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric How about a timer made from a 555? The question wasn't how to make the pulse Gunner - but how to trasnmit the power pulses to a spinning shaft. Simply use an encoder. to trigger your timer. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incremental-...-/171947459869 |
#8
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:31:10 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:46:24 -0700, wrote: I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric Look at the pulley size ratio on your car. Minimum 2:1 - so if the engine cranks up to only 3000 RPM the alternator is spinning at 6000 RPM.. No problem at all handling 5000. That's what I was thinking Clare, but I though I was wrong because 6000 seems awfully fast. Thanks. Eric |
#9
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 12 Apr 2017 04:01:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2017-04-11, wrote: I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. Is this 24 VDC or 24 VAC? Can you *use* AC? If so, mount a coil around the rotating shaft, and another one close to it to the stationary surrounds. If you make it well balanced, there should be no problems for transmitting AC. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric I would skip the idea of slip rings, as the electro-magnetic coupling will last pretty much forever. Enjoy, DoN. Greetings DoN, I thought about that but dismissed it because I really don't know how I would go about doing it. So maybe you could help. Sticking out the back of the lathe will be a steel tube. Inside this tube will be the solenoid actuated valve and counterweights so that the tube is balanced. And the plumbing that will bring the air from the valve to the collet closer mounted in the spindle. Into the end of this tube will be screwed a rotary union that passes air. If I have a coil wrapped around the steel tube won't that be a problem? What if a plastic sleeve were to be pressed over the O.D. of the tube and the coil wrapped on it. Would that be better? Since I can supply any voltage to the stationary coil it seems tome that a 1:1 ratio between the coils would be easiest to do. Does this mean that I can also get away with just about any number of turns provided the wire can handle the minute current? The valve only needs .2 amps to operate so the wire can be pretty fine. The valve operates on DC but a rectifier can be stuffed into the tube along with everything else. Will the tube coil need a snubber diode too? Any advice? Thanks, Eric |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Electrical slip ring questions
wrote in message
... On 12 Apr 2017 04:01:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2017-04-11, wrote: I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. Is this 24 VDC or 24 VAC? Can you *use* AC? If so, mount a coil around the rotating shaft, and another one close to it to the stationary surrounds. If you make it well balanced, there should be no problems for transmitting AC. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric I would skip the idea of slip rings, as the electro-magnetic coupling will last pretty much forever. Enjoy, DoN. Greetings DoN, I thought about that but dismissed it because I really don't know how I would go about doing it. So maybe you could help. Sticking out the back of the lathe will be a steel tube. Inside this tube will be the solenoid actuated valve and counterweights so that the tube is balanced. And the plumbing that will bring the air from the valve to the collet closer mounted in the spindle. Into the end of this tube will be screwed a rotary union that passes air. If I have a coil wrapped around the steel tube won't that be a problem? What if a plastic sleeve were to be pressed over the O.D. of the tube and the coil wrapped on it. Would that be better? Since I can supply any voltage to the stationary coil it seems tome that a 1:1 ratio between the coils would be easiest to do. Does this mean that I can also get away with just about any number of turns provided the wire can handle the minute current? The valve only needs .2 amps to operate so the wire can be pretty fine. The valve operates on DC but a rectifier can be stuffed into the tube along with everything else. Will the tube coil need a snubber diode too? Any advice? Thanks, Eric Is there a reason why you can't control the air flow upstream of the rotary union? -jsw |
#11
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:58:53 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:33:27 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:18:16 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:46:24 -0700, wrote: I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric How about a timer made from a 555? The question wasn't how to make the pulse Gunner - but how to trasnmit the power pulses to a spinning shaft. Simply use an encoder. to trigger your timer. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incremental-...-/171947459869 How does he get the power to the spinning part??? |
#12
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:54:19 -0700, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:31:10 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:46:24 -0700, wrote: I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric Look at the pulley size ratio on your car. Minimum 2:1 - so if the engine cranks up to only 3000 RPM the alternator is spinning at 6000 RPM.. No problem at all handling 5000. That's what I was thinking Clare, but I though I was wrong because 6000 seems awfully fast. Thanks. Eric It's fast for a merry-go-round and slow for a jet turbine - - - |
#13
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:29:20 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:58:53 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:33:27 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:18:16 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:46:24 -0700, wrote: I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric How about a timer made from a 555? The question wasn't how to make the pulse Gunner - but how to trasnmit the power pulses to a spinning shaft. Simply use an encoder. to trigger your timer. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incremental-...-/171947459869 How does he get the power to the spinning part??? Via the not-encoder bits? -- Newman's First Law: It is useless to put on your brakes when you're upside down. --Paul Newman |
#14
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 2017-04-12, wrote:
On 12 Apr 2017 04:01:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2017-04-11, wrote: I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. Is this 24 VDC or 24 VAC? Can you *use* AC? If so, mount a coil around the rotating shaft, and another one close to it to the stationary surrounds. If you make it well balanced, there should be no problems for transmitting AC. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric I would skip the idea of slip rings, as the electro-magnetic coupling will last pretty much forever. Enjoy, DoN. Greetings DoN, I thought about that but dismissed it because I really don't know how I would go about doing it. So maybe you could help. Sticking out the back of the lathe will be a steel tube. Mild steel, or hardened? Mild would be better. Inside this tube will be the solenoid actuated valve and counterweights so that the tube is balanced. And the plumbing that will bring the air from the valve to the collet closer mounted in the spindle. Into the end of this tube will be screwed a rotary union that passes air. Hmm ... any reason why you can't put the valve on the outside end of the union? That looks like it (the union) might wear faster than the slip rings anyway. If I have a coil wrapped around the steel tube won't that be a problem? What if a plastic sleeve were to be pressed over the O.D. of the tube and the coil wrapped on it. Would that be better? Hmm ... let's make the part which contains the coil fairly short, and put a plastic spacer say 1/4" thick or a bit more between it and the main tube. Let me sketch how I would make it for reasonable magnetic coupling.. (I'm sure that there are many ways.) BBBBBBBBBB XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXBBBBBBBBBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXBB PPPPPPPPPPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS This image is only above the centerline of the tube. If your newsreader is using a proportional space font, the image will be distorted -- unless you can send it to a printer which has a fixed-space font like Courier available. Proportional space fonts will squeeze the ':'s closer together than the 'P', 'S' and 'X' characters. The second and third row of Ps should end just below the right-most '|'s The parts made of ||| are mild steel cups. The one to the left fits onto a plastic sleeve PPP over the steel sleeve SSS. The ::: are the ends of wires in the coil wound and glued into the cup. (With the wire ends brought out though a hole or two drilled in the bottom wall of each cup. BBB is a bracket -- steel, aluminum, or perhaps a strong plastic. The two cups will concentrate the magnetic field fairly well from one coil to the other. Whether it goes up, or down depends on where you have something to bolt it to. voltage to the stationary coil it seems tome that a 1:1 ratio between the coils would be easiest to do. Does this mean that I can also get away with just about any number of turns provided the wire can handle the minute current? Too few turns will make the inductance too low for the 60 Hz voltage, even with the steel cups, and will draw too much current from the supply. At a guess, I would go for perhaps 100-200 turns on each coil. The valve only needs .2 amps to operate so the wire can be pretty fine. Probably 24 to 30 ga magnet wire. Measure it and calculate how much area would be taken up by 200 turns to decide how deep to make the cups. You can use mild steel pipe and bore it out truly round (since most pipes have an internal weld bead) and then turn a mild steel plate to press into the pipe. Or -- machine the whole thing out of a mild steel. If you want it to look nice, and have some, 12L14 machines nicely. Pipe is usually ugly to machine. :-) The valve operates on DC but a rectifier can be stuffed into the tube along with everything else. Will the tube coil need a snubber diode too? Any advice? A snubber diode will short half of the AC voltage. Bad news here. Maybe put one on the DC coil of a relay from whatever is generating the pulses, and use that to switch the AC into the coil. On the output coil (between it and the solenoid valve) you'll want a small bridge rectifier. If you use a plain single diode, you will only get power for half of each cycle (1/120 second on, 1/120th second off) which will likely buzz, and you may need to boost the voltage a bit (maybe 20-50% to get sufficient current into the solenoid valve. Thanks, Eric You have my thoughts above -- including putting the solenoid valve outside the union so it does not need to rotate. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#15
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Electrical slip ring questions
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
... How well do you think an electric motor would work as a rotary transformer? They are already balanced and built to withstand the RPMs. -jsw |
#16
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 13 Apr 2017 03:59:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2017-04-12, wrote: On 12 Apr 2017 04:01:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2017-04-11, wrote: I'm sue someone here can help. I need to get power to a solenoid operated valve spinning at 5000 RPM. Low power, 24 volts at 5 watts. The power will be on for about 4 seconds and off for 7 seconds. This on/off cycle will be going on 10 hours a day. Is this 24 VDC or 24 VAC? Can you *use* AC? If so, mount a coil around the rotating shaft, and another one close to it to the stationary surrounds. If you make it well balanced, there should be no problems for transmitting AC. I ahve looked at slip rings online but the high speed through hole type are really spendy. Then I got to thinking about the slip rings in alternator. They certainly can carry enough current but I don't know how fast alternators typically spin. I do have an old alternator that would make a good slip ring donor. Anybody know or have a better idea? I need about 1 inch through the slip rings. Thanks, Eric I would skip the idea of slip rings, as the electro-magnetic coupling will last pretty much forever. Enjoy, DoN. Greetings DoN, I thought about that but dismissed it because I really don't know how I would go about doing it. So maybe you could help. Sticking out the back of the lathe will be a steel tube. Mild steel, or hardened? Mild would be better. Inside this tube will be the solenoid actuated valve and counterweights so that the tube is balanced. And the plumbing that will bring the air from the valve to the collet closer mounted in the spindle. Into the end of this tube will be screwed a rotary union that passes air. Hmm ... any reason why you can't put the valve on the outside end of the union? That looks like it (the union) might wear faster than the slip rings anyway. If I have a coil wrapped around the steel tube won't that be a problem? What if a plastic sleeve were to be pressed over the O.D. of the tube and the coil wrapped on it. Would that be better? Hmm ... let's make the part which contains the coil fairly short, and put a plastic spacer say 1/4" thick or a bit more between it and the main tube. Let me sketch how I would make it for reasonable magnetic coupling.. (I'm sure that there are many ways.) BBBBBBBBBB XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXBBBBBBBBBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXX:::::::::::: :::::::::::XXXBB XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXBB PPPPPPPPPPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS This image is only above the centerline of the tube. If your newsreader is using a proportional space font, the image will be distorted -- unless you can send it to a printer which has a fixed-space font like Courier available. Proportional space fonts will squeeze the ':'s closer together than the 'P', 'S' and 'X' characters. The second and third row of Ps should end just below the right-most '|'s The parts made of ||| are mild steel cups. The one to the left fits onto a plastic sleeve PPP over the steel sleeve SSS. The ::: are the ends of wires in the coil wound and glued into the cup. (With the wire ends brought out though a hole or two drilled in the bottom wall of each cup. BBB is a bracket -- steel, aluminum, or perhaps a strong plastic. The two cups will concentrate the magnetic field fairly well from one coil to the other. Whether it goes up, or down depends on where you have something to bolt it to. voltage to the stationary coil it seems tome that a 1:1 ratio between the coils would be easiest to do. Does this mean that I can also get away with just about any number of turns provided the wire can handle the minute current? Too few turns will make the inductance too low for the 60 Hz voltage, even with the steel cups, and will draw too much current from the supply. At a guess, I would go for perhaps 100-200 turns on each coil. The valve only needs .2 amps to operate so the wire can be pretty fine. Probably 24 to 30 ga magnet wire. Measure it and calculate how much area would be taken up by 200 turns to decide how deep to make the cups. You can use mild steel pipe and bore it out truly round (since most pipes have an internal weld bead) and then turn a mild steel plate to press into the pipe. Or -- machine the whole thing out of a mild steel. If you want it to look nice, and have some, 12L14 machines nicely. Pipe is usually ugly to machine. :-) The valve operates on DC but a rectifier can be stuffed into the tube along with everything else. Will the tube coil need a snubber diode too? Any advice? A snubber diode will short half of the AC voltage. Bad news here. Maybe put one on the DC coil of a relay from whatever is generating the pulses, and use that to switch the AC into the coil. On the output coil (between it and the solenoid valve) you'll want a small bridge rectifier. If you use a plain single diode, you will only get power for half of each cycle (1/120 second on, 1/120th second off) which will likely buzz, and you may need to boost the voltage a bit (maybe 20-50% to get sufficient current into the solenoid valve. Thanks, Eric You have my thoughts above -- including putting the solenoid valve outside the union so it does not need to rotate. :-) Enjoy, DoN. Greetings DoN, Thanks for the advice. The reason for the valve is that the rotary union has only one air passage and I need two for the closer. The rotary union I am using will last thousands of hours. I know this because I have used this exact model for thousands of hours. I don't know why it is but two passsage rotary unions that can handle the air pressure and speed are about 10 times more expensive than single passage ones. For liquids, like oil or coolant, two passage rotary unions have much higher pressure and rpm limits. Anyway, the only cost effective way to get the setup to work is to do the valving in the spinning tube. I use DOM tubing for spindle liners and will be using some for this project. I have another coil question. What if the coils face each other rather than being concentric? Harder to wind maybe but it might be easier to mount the stationary coil if it is facing the moving coil. Eric |
#17
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:52:56 -0700, wrote:
Greetings DoN, Thanks for the advice. The reason for the valve is that the rotary union has only one air passage and I need two for the closer. The rotary union I am using will last thousands of hours. I know this because I have used this exact model for thousands of hours. I don't know why it is but two passsage rotary unions that can handle the air pressure and speed are about 10 times more expensive than single passage ones. For liquids, like oil or coolant, two passage rotary unions have much higher pressure and rpm limits. Anyway, the only cost effective way to get the setup to work is to do the valving in the spinning tube. I use DOM tubing for spindle liners and will be using some for this project. I have another coil question. What if the coils face each other rather than being concentric? Harder to wind maybe but it might be easier to mount the stationary coil if it is facing the moving coil. Eric I assume you need two air feeds because the closer has a double acting cylinder. If we can also assume that the closer requires a higher pressure for clamping than for releasing, then you may be able to use a single passage union and a sequence valve circuit rotating with the closer and a 2-pressure supply to the union. When the rotating circuit sees low pressure it routes the pressure to the closer's release port; high pressure switches the pressure to the clamp port. In other words, the union is carrying both the working air pressure and the data needed to route the pressure to the proper port. If you're not familiar, there's some info on sequence valves he http://beta.hydraulicspneumatics.com...educing-valves -- Ned Simmons |
#18
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 07:35:32 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... How well do you think an electric motor would work as a rotary transformer? They are already balanced and built to withstand the RPMs. -jsw what kind of electric motor? I'm assuming a universal motor. What advantage do you get using a brushed motor with a commutator in place of the VERY much simpler slip rings?????? Also, with a rotating transformer the pulse timing for the solenoid is likely going to get pretty hairy due to the magnetic retention of the cores. There is really nothing wrong with using slip rings, and it is the most elegant solution due to it's sureme symplicity. NOTHING he is trying to do contraindicates using slip-rings. |
#19
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:13:20 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:52:56 -0700, wrote: Greetings DoN, Thanks for the advice. The reason for the valve is that the rotary union has only one air passage and I need two for the closer. The rotary union I am using will last thousands of hours. I know this because I have used this exact model for thousands of hours. I don't know why it is but two passsage rotary unions that can handle the air pressure and speed are about 10 times more expensive than single passage ones. For liquids, like oil or coolant, two passage rotary unions have much higher pressure and rpm limits. Anyway, the only cost effective way to get the setup to work is to do the valving in the spinning tube. I use DOM tubing for spindle liners and will be using some for this project. I have another coil question. What if the coils face each other rather than being concentric? Harder to wind maybe but it might be easier to mount the stationary coil if it is facing the moving coil. Eric I assume you need two air feeds because the closer has a double acting cylinder. If we can also assume that the closer requires a higher pressure for clamping than for releasing, then you may be able to use a single passage union and a sequence valve circuit rotating with the closer and a 2-pressure supply to the union. When the rotating circuit sees low pressure it routes the pressure to the closer's release port; high pressure switches the pressure to the clamp port. In other words, the union is carrying both the working air pressure and the data needed to route the pressure to the proper port. If you're not familiar, there's some info on sequence valves he http://beta.hydraulicspneumatics.com...educing-valves I LOVE how you "engineers" complicate a simple solution. You need to get Colin Chapman on board!!!! |
#20
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 2017-04-13, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... How well do you think an electric motor would work as a rotary transformer? They are already balanced and built to withstand the RPMs. Well ... most of our electric motors are induction motors, where the rotor is just iron and copper (or aluminum) -- no connections to it other than magnetic coupling. However -- a universal motor (wound rotor and commutator) could perhaps act as a transformer -- with say AC fed into the field, and power picked up from the commutator. But the commutator would be fixed with relation to the field coil, so you still have the problem of getting the power to the solenoid valve. Break out the commutator, and pick one of the rotor windings and you have your AC (modulated by the rotation of the rotor poles relative to the field poles), but running those wires out to the solenoid valve would still be tricky. The wires would interfere with mounting of the bearing at that end -- unless you milled a couple of slots in the rotor shaft where the wires could be passed under the bearing. I really think that moving the solenoid valve to the outside of the rotary coupling would make more sense as I suggested at the start of my followup -- in spite of my having posted the design for machining magnetic cups and coils for getting the power in through the rotating shaft. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 2017-04-13, wrote:
On 13 Apr 2017 03:59:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: [ ... ] You have my thoughts above -- including putting the solenoid valve outside the union so it does not need to rotate. :-) [ ... ] Greetings DoN, Thanks for the advice. The reason for the valve is that the rotary union has only one air passage and I need two for the closer. O.K. One to close it and one to open it? What happens with no pressure -- does it default to an open or a closed position -- or indeterminate? The rotary union I am using will last thousands of hours. I know this because I have used this exact model for thousands of hours. I don't know why it is but two passsage rotary unions that can handle the air pressure and speed are about 10 times more expensive than single passage ones. For liquids, like oil or coolant, two passage rotary unions have much higher pressure and rpm limits. Anyway, the only cost effective way to get the setup to work is to do the valving in the spinning tube. I use DOM tubing for spindle liners and will be using some for this project. Can you mount two single unions on the tube? That would cost less than a two-channel one. I have another coil question. What if the coils face each other rather than being concentric? Harder to wind maybe but it might be easier to mount the stationary coil if it is facing the moving coil. I can't really picture what you are talking about. Perhaps you mis-read my drawings (now snipped from above). There are two coils, each in a cup, one rotating and one stationary facing each other. Think of the cup as a coffee mug with a tube mounted in the bottom and extending up to the level of the rim. The coil is wound on a form, and then pushed into the cup and around the tube. That coil faces another one just like it. Obviously, the coffee mugs need to be magnetically conductive (e.g. mild steel) and with two small holes drilled in the base of the cup -- one near the center tube, and one out near the outer mug wall for bringing the wires through. The center tubes in the mugs will have to be big enough to pass your steel tube through -- and enough for perhaps 1/4" thickness of plastic between the steel tube and the ID of the mug. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#22
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 16:43:02 -0400, wrote:
...VERY much simpler slip rings... Indeed! Built a crude slip ring back about 1985 that had three channels plus ground, two of which pulsed at different rates. One for a LED and the other for a sonalert. Very low RPM obviously, but it worked! Used copper coated PCB board and slot car brushes. Which were kind of hard to find in the mid 80s. Slot cars had been out of fashion for over a decade and no internet to just 'look things up'. http://alt-config.net/slipring.jpeg Um, the LED was in the bats mouth;-) -- William |
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 13 Apr 2017 22:07:57 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2017-04-13, Jim Wilkins wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... How well do you think an electric motor would work as a rotary transformer? They are already balanced and built to withstand the RPMs. Well ... most of our electric motors are induction motors, where the rotor is just iron and copper (or aluminum) -- no connections to it other than magnetic coupling. However -- a universal motor (wound rotor and commutator) could perhaps act as a transformer -- with say AC fed into the field, and power picked up from the commutator. But the commutator would be fixed with relation to the field coil, so you still have the problem of getting the power to the solenoid valve. Break out the commutator, and pick one of the rotor windings and you have your AC (modulated by the rotation of the rotor poles relative to the field poles), but running those wires out to the solenoid valve would still be tricky. The wires would interfere with mounting of the bearing at that end -- unless you milled a couple of slots in the rotor shaft where the wires could be passed under the bearing. I really think that moving the solenoid valve to the outside of the rotary coupling would make more sense as I suggested at the start of my followup -- in spite of my having posted the design for machining magnetic cups and coils for getting the power in through the rotating shaft. Enjoy, DoN. Of course the valve mounted outside would be better. But that won't work because the closer is basically a double acting cylinder. This means that it needs air pressure to clamp and remain clamped, and air pressure to unclamp. So the rotary union would need two passages.The way I use the closer now is with a solenoid operated valve the has one air inlet, two outlets, and two exhausts.So when one side of the piston is pressurized the other side is exhausted to the atmosphere. Since air needs to be sent to both sides of a piston there needs to be two passages in a rotary union if the valve is outside. Eric |
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Electrical slip ring questions
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#25
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 2017-04-14, wrote:
On 13 Apr 2017 22:07:57 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2017-04-13, Jim Wilkins wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... [ ... comments on using a motor as a rotary transformer snipped ... ] I really think that moving the solenoid valve to the outside of the rotary coupling would make more sense as I suggested at the start of my followup -- in spite of my having posted the design for machining magnetic cups and coils for getting the power in through the rotating shaft. Enjoy, DoN. Of course the valve mounted outside would be better. But that won't work because the closer is basically a double acting cylinder. This means that it needs air pressure to clamp and remain clamped, and air pressure to unclamp. I read that in another of your responses earlier today, and posted this to which you replied yesterday, otherwise I would not hav repeated this suggestion. So the rotary union would need two passages.The way I use the closer now is with a solenoid operated valve the has one air inlet, two outlets, and two exhausts.So when one side of the piston is pressurized the other side is exhausted to the atmosphere. Since air needs to be sent to both sides of a piston there needs to be two passages in a rotary union if the valve is outside. O.K. Another thought comes to mind. What happens if you use only one port, and apply either pressure or a vacuum to it? I presume that you need continuous pressure when it is holding, but do you need continuous pressure to the other side to open it and hold it, or will it open and stay pretty much open from a fairly short pulse? If a short pulse will do, then a valve to feed the pressure to a venturi to get vacuum will open it. You likely don't want to hold it there for long, because a venturi is a rather inefficient way to generate a vacuum, lots of run time on the compressor. But a short burst to open the chuck might do well. (Check it out with short bursts for open before you mount it, while it is easy to get to.) If this works, you can use the single union and no need for valve control in the spindle. The only air-operated chuck which I have seen had springs to return to the open state, so only one pressure feed needed. This was one made for lathe use, so it was designed for single pressure line. Maybe there is provision inside yours for spring return, if you just install the springs. (Sorry, that one was sold by a friend on eBay a couple of years ago.) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#26
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:15:09 -0700, wrote:
On 13 Apr 2017 22:07:57 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2017-04-13, Jim Wilkins wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... How well do you think an electric motor would work as a rotary transformer? They are already balanced and built to withstand the RPMs. Well ... most of our electric motors are induction motors, where the rotor is just iron and copper (or aluminum) -- no connections to it other than magnetic coupling. However -- a universal motor (wound rotor and commutator) could perhaps act as a transformer -- with say AC fed into the field, and power picked up from the commutator. But the commutator would be fixed with relation to the field coil, so you still have the problem of getting the power to the solenoid valve. Break out the commutator, and pick one of the rotor windings and you have your AC (modulated by the rotation of the rotor poles relative to the field poles), but running those wires out to the solenoid valve would still be tricky. The wires would interfere with mounting of the bearing at that end -- unless you milled a couple of slots in the rotor shaft where the wires could be passed under the bearing. I really think that moving the solenoid valve to the outside of the rotary coupling would make more sense as I suggested at the start of my followup -- in spite of my having posted the design for machining magnetic cups and coils for getting the power in through the rotating shaft. Enjoy, DoN. Of course the valve mounted outside would be better. But that won't work because the closer is basically a double acting cylinder. This means that it needs air pressure to clamp and remain clamped, and air pressure to unclamp. So the rotary union would need two passages.The way I use the closer now is with a solenoid operated valve the has one air inlet, two outlets, and two exhausts.So when one side of the piston is pressurized the other side is exhausted to the atmosphere. Since air needs to be sent to both sides of a piston there needs to be two passages in a rotary union if the valve is outside. Eric I've used a dual rotary union similar to this on a heated roller. Kind of spendy. Deublin also makes slip rings. http://www.deublin.com/2117-001-109/ Pete Keillor |
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:50:14 -0400, William Bagwell
wrote: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 16:43:02 -0400, wrote: ...VERY much simpler slip rings... Indeed! Built a crude slip ring back about 1985 that had three channels plus ground, two of which pulsed at different rates. One for a LED and the other for a sonalert. Very low RPM obviously, but it worked! Used copper coated PCB board and slot car brushes. Which were kind of hard to find in the mid 80s. Slot cars had been out of fashion for over a decade and no internet to just 'look things up'. http://alt-config.net/slipring.jpeg Um, the LED was in the bats mouth;-) Hah! Well, that explains things, Mr. BSC. -- Newman's First Law: It is useless to put on your brakes when you're upside down. --Paul Newman |
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Electrical slip ring questions
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:13:20 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:52:56 -0700, wrote: Greetings DoN, Thanks for the advice. The reason for the valve is that the rotary union has only one air passage and I need two for the closer. The rotary union I am using will last thousands of hours. I know this because I have used this exact model for thousands of hours. I don't know why it is but two passsage rotary unions that can handle the air pressure and speed are about 10 times more expensive than single passage ones. For liquids, like oil or coolant, two passage rotary unions have much higher pressure and rpm limits. Anyway, the only cost effective way to get the setup to work is to do the valving in the spinning tube. I use DOM tubing for spindle liners and will be using some for this project. I have another coil question. What if the coils face each other rather than being concentric? Harder to wind maybe but it might be easier to mount the stationary coil if it is facing the moving coil. Eric I assume you need two air feeds because the closer has a double acting cylinder. If we can also assume that the closer requires a higher pressure for clamping than for releasing, then you may be able to use a single passage union and a sequence valve circuit rotating with the closer and a 2-pressure supply to the union. When the rotating circuit sees low pressure it routes the pressure to the closer's release port; high pressure switches the pressure to the clamp port. In other words, the union is carrying both the working air pressure and the data needed to route the pressure to the proper port. If you're not familiar, there's some info on sequence valves he http://beta.hydraulicspneumatics.com...educing-valves Greetings Ned, I looked at your link last night. I had never heard of sequence valves before. I would need one that would work with only about 10 PSI pressure difference. I'm gonna look this weekend to see what's available. Thanks much, Eric |
#30
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 06:34:20 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:15:09 -0700, wrote: On 13 Apr 2017 22:07:57 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2017-04-13, Jim Wilkins wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... How well do you think an electric motor would work as a rotary transformer? They are already balanced and built to withstand the RPMs. Well ... most of our electric motors are induction motors, where the rotor is just iron and copper (or aluminum) -- no connections to it other than magnetic coupling. However -- a universal motor (wound rotor and commutator) could perhaps act as a transformer -- with say AC fed into the field, and power picked up from the commutator. But the commutator would be fixed with relation to the field coil, so you still have the problem of getting the power to the solenoid valve. Break out the commutator, and pick one of the rotor windings and you have your AC (modulated by the rotation of the rotor poles relative to the field poles), but running those wires out to the solenoid valve would still be tricky. The wires would interfere with mounting of the bearing at that end -- unless you milled a couple of slots in the rotor shaft where the wires could be passed under the bearing. I really think that moving the solenoid valve to the outside of the rotary coupling would make more sense as I suggested at the start of my followup -- in spite of my having posted the design for machining magnetic cups and coils for getting the power in through the rotating shaft. Enjoy, DoN. Of course the valve mounted outside would be better. But that won't work because the closer is basically a double acting cylinder. This means that it needs air pressure to clamp and remain clamped, and air pressure to unclamp. So the rotary union would need two passages.The way I use the closer now is with a solenoid operated valve the has one air inlet, two outlets, and two exhausts.So when one side of the piston is pressurized the other side is exhausted to the atmosphere. Since air needs to be sent to both sides of a piston there needs to be two passages in a rotary union if the valve is outside. Eric I've used a dual rotary union similar to this on a heated roller. Kind of spendy. Deublin also makes slip rings. http://www.deublin.com/2117-001-109/ Pete Keillor The max speed for that rotary union is only 250 RPM. I need 4000 RPM. The single passage ones go that fast while still being affordable. The dual passage ones that can spin that fast and have air going through them are about 10 times more expensive. Eric |
#31
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:11:45 -0700, wrote:
On 12 Apr 2017 04:01:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: I thought about that but dismissed it because I really don't know how I would go about doing it. You should dismiss it because it is complication you don't need. My contact in Ford Engineering tells me that the burst test speed for "standard" alternators (the traditional ones before they started designing a custom alternator for every engine) is 15,000 RPM and that they will run up to around 10,000 RPM with the engine wound out. So you have no problem getting the power to the solenoid. The problem will be the solenoid itself. The only way the solenoid could work is for the plunger to be exactly axially aligned with the shaft. If it is off-center by even a tiny amount, the whole assembly will be out of balance. Worse, the centrifugal force will act to bind the plunger against the wall of the solenoid tube. Even if you work that out the fluid (air in this case) will be affected by the same centrifugal force. The force will either work against or with the valve. If it work against the valve, the valve might not open. If it works with the valve, it might not shut. I don't fully know what you're trying to achieve but it seems to me that a stationary solenoid, a rotary coupling such as one of these. https://www.mcmaster.com/#rotating-couplings/=17755fj to get the air inside the tube. If you need to flow to be abruptly started and stopped, my approach would be capillary tubing from the valve to the outlet, the bore of which is chosen to provide the desired air volume when full shop air is applied from the solenoid. Here is an example of several bore sizes. https://www.johnstonesupply.com/sear...pillary+tubing If your solenoid is DC it will either require a snubber or use a switching device capable of withstanding the flyback. A pure diode will greatly slow the closing time because the current will continue to flow until it is dissipated in the solenoid's resistance. If you need it to close rapidly, the usual technique is to connect a resistor in series with the solenoid and adjust its value until the flyback voltage is as high as tolerable. For example if your actuating device uses a 200 volt max rating transistor, I'll allow the voltage to rise to no more than 100 volts. You'll need an oscilloscope to observe this. I anticipate your not having one but you probably have a friend that does. If you need the valve to close very rapidly, I can describe a very simple peak/hold circuit that supplies full voltage until the solenoid is actuated and then drops the current to the much lower holding value. Much less current to dissipate in the snubber. John So maybe you could help. Sticking out the back of the lathe will be a steel tube. Inside this tube will be the solenoid actuated valve and counterweights so that the tube is balanced. And the plumbing that will bring the air from the valve to the collet closer mounted in the spindle. Into the end of this tube will be screwed a rotary union that passes air. If I have a coil wrapped around the steel tube won't that be a problem? What if a plastic sleeve were to be pressed over the O.D. of the tube and the coil wrapped on it. Would that be better? Since I can supply any voltage to the stationary coil it seems tome that a 1:1 ratio between the coils would be easiest to do. Does this mean that I can also get away with just about any number of turns provided the wire can handle the minute current? The valve only needs .2 amps to operate so the wire can be pretty fine. The valve operates on DC but a rectifier can be stuffed into the tube along with everything else. Will the tube coil need a snubber diode too? Any advice? Thanks, Eric John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#32
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 17:29:21 -0400, Neon John wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:11:45 -0700, wrote: On 12 Apr 2017 04:01:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: I thought about that but dismissed it because I really don't know how I would go about doing it. You should dismiss it because it is complication you don't need. My contact in Ford Engineering tells me that the burst test speed for "standard" alternators (the traditional ones before they started designing a custom alternator for every engine) is 15,000 RPM and that they will run up to around 10,000 RPM with the engine wound out. So you have no problem getting the power to the solenoid. The problem will be the solenoid itself. The only way the solenoid could work is for the plunger to be exactly axially aligned with the shaft. If it is off-center by even a tiny amount, the whole assembly will be out of balance. Worse, the centrifugal force will act to bind the plunger against the wall of the solenoid tube. Even if you work that out the fluid (air in this case) will be affected by the same centrifugal force. The force will either work against or with the valve. If it work against the valve, the valve might not open. If it works with the valve, it might not shut. I don't fully know what you're trying to achieve but it seems to me that a stationary solenoid, a rotary coupling such as one of these. https://www.mcmaster.com/#rotating-couplings/=17755fj to get the air inside the tube. If you need to flow to be abruptly started and stopped, my approach would be capillary tubing from the valve to the outlet, the bore of which is chosen to provide the desired air volume when full shop air is applied from the solenoid. Here is an example of several bore sizes. https://www.johnstonesupply.com/sear...pillary+tubing If your solenoid is DC it will either require a snubber or use a switching device capable of withstanding the flyback. A pure diode will greatly slow the closing time because the current will continue to flow until it is dissipated in the solenoid's resistance. If you need it to close rapidly, the usual technique is to connect a resistor in series with the solenoid and adjust its value until the flyback voltage is as high as tolerable. For example if your actuating device uses a 200 volt max rating transistor, I'll allow the voltage to rise to no more than 100 volts. You'll need an oscilloscope to observe this. I anticipate your not having one but you probably have a friend that does. If you need the valve to close very rapidly, I can describe a very simple peak/hold circuit that supplies full voltage until the solenoid is actuated and then drops the current to the much lower holding value. Much less current to dissipate in the snubber. John SNIP Greetings John, I alread thought about the solenoid sticking. It will be concentric with the lathe spindle centerline. I'm not sure but I think the valves I have are piloted because they use so little current to change the valve position. And it changes fast. Anyway, I already use these valves with this closer as well as other air clamping devices. As to the two passage rotary union you linked to if you read the specs you will see they cannot be spun anywhere near as fast as I need to spin it. That's why I'm going through all this falderal (izzat how it's spelled?). As I have posted I would love a two passage rotary union that can handle 4000 RPM and 120 PSI air. But they are about 10 times more than the single passage types with the same air and speed rating. Like $3000.00. I have even checked eBay. I did find a good deal on a coolant rotary union and I bought it. But it is for coolant. And is a single passage union. And it's going into the mill for through spindle coolant. Eric |
#33
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Electrical slip ring questions
Eric - perhaps just for information, you might try a side access air
coupling. This would comprise the rotating center "tube" you mention surrounded by a metal piece with 2 "o-ring" seals for each air passage. You could setup a test on a drill press and use the local hardware store for "o-rings". Hopefully, the tube's diameter could be reduced. Probably first testing would be for max pressure with no rotation then with greater speeds. Next step would likely be searching for teflon "o-rings" or even higher temp types. Hul wrote: On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 06:34:20 -0500, Pete Keillor wrote: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:15:09 -0700, wrote: On 13 Apr 2017 22:07:57 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2017-04-13, Jim Wilkins wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... How well do you think an electric motor would work as a rotary transformer? They are already balanced and built to withstand the RPMs. Well ... most of our electric motors are induction motors, where the rotor is just iron and copper (or aluminum) -- no connections to it other than magnetic coupling. However -- a universal motor (wound rotor and commutator) could perhaps act as a transformer -- with say AC fed into the field, and power picked up from the commutator. But the commutator would be fixed with relation to the field coil, so you still have the problem of getting the power to the solenoid valve. Break out the commutator, and pick one of the rotor windings and you have your AC (modulated by the rotation of the rotor poles relative to the field poles), but running those wires out to the solenoid valve would still be tricky. The wires would interfere with mounting of the bearing at that end -- unless you milled a couple of slots in the rotor shaft where the wires could be passed under the bearing. I really think that moving the solenoid valve to the outside of the rotary coupling would make more sense as I suggested at the start of my followup -- in spite of my having posted the design for machining magnetic cups and coils for getting the power in through the rotating shaft. Enjoy, DoN. Of course the valve mounted outside would be better. But that won't work because the closer is basically a double acting cylinder. This means that it needs air pressure to clamp and remain clamped, and air pressure to unclamp. So the rotary union would need two passages.The way I use the closer now is with a solenoid operated valve the has one air inlet, two outlets, and two exhausts.So when one side of the piston is pressurized the other side is exhausted to the atmosphere. Since air needs to be sent to both sides of a piston there needs to be two passages in a rotary union if the valve is outside. Eric I've used a dual rotary union similar to this on a heated roller. Kind of spendy. Deublin also makes slip rings. http://www.deublin.com/2117-001-109/ Pete Keillor The max speed for that rotary union is only 250 RPM. I need 4000 RPM. The single passage ones go that fast while still being affordable. The dual passage ones that can spin that fast and have air going through them are about 10 times more expensive. Eric |
#34
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:37:18 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote: Eric - perhaps just for information, you might try a side access air coupling. This would comprise the rotating center "tube" you mention surrounded by a metal piece with 2 "o-ring" seals for each air passage. You could setup a test on a drill press and use the local hardware store for "o-rings". Hopefully, the tube's diameter could be reduced. Probably first testing would be for max pressure with no rotation then with greater speeds. Next step would likely be searching for teflon "o-rings" or even higher temp types. Hul Greetings Hul, The rotary union I will be using is a side access one but the air comes out the center. The problem is the high speed, 4000 RPM. O-rings won't work in that application. It's really interesting to look online at rotary unions. Lots of single passage 150 PSI 4000 and higher RPM for air but not two or more. Years ago I had to design and make a custom rotary union for a gundrill machine where I worked. It had to seal against 2000 PSI hot oil up to about 1000 RPM. It was actually pretty easy to do. The design was informed by the Parker Seal folks. We were going through expensive rotary unions on this machine and my boss wanted one that would be easy and cheap to repair. The answer was using the correct rubber compound and letting a little oil leak past the O-rings. The union was built with a shroud that collected the slight leakage and drained the oil into the gundrill sump. I have since seen this type of design on high pressure hydraulic rotating actuators. It is apparently very common. But since I am using air special hard seals need to be used, O-rings just won't last. Eric wrote: On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 06:34:20 -0500, Pete Keillor wrote: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:15:09 -0700, wrote: On 13 Apr 2017 22:07:57 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2017-04-13, Jim Wilkins wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... How well do you think an electric motor would work as a rotary transformer? They are already balanced and built to withstand the RPMs. Well ... most of our electric motors are induction motors, where the rotor is just iron and copper (or aluminum) -- no connections to it other than magnetic coupling. However -- a universal motor (wound rotor and commutator) could perhaps act as a transformer -- with say AC fed into the field, and power picked up from the commutator. But the commutator would be fixed with relation to the field coil, so you still have the problem of getting the power to the solenoid valve. Break out the commutator, and pick one of the rotor windings and you have your AC (modulated by the rotation of the rotor poles relative to the field poles), but running those wires out to the solenoid valve would still be tricky. The wires would interfere with mounting of the bearing at that end -- unless you milled a couple of slots in the rotor shaft where the wires could be passed under the bearing. I really think that moving the solenoid valve to the outside of the rotary coupling would make more sense as I suggested at the start of my followup -- in spite of my having posted the design for machining magnetic cups and coils for getting the power in through the rotating shaft. Enjoy, DoN. Of course the valve mounted outside would be better. But that won't work because the closer is basically a double acting cylinder. This means that it needs air pressure to clamp and remain clamped, and air pressure to unclamp. So the rotary union would need two passages.The way I use the closer now is with a solenoid operated valve the has one air inlet, two outlets, and two exhausts.So when one side of the piston is pressurized the other side is exhausted to the atmosphere. Since air needs to be sent to both sides of a piston there needs to be two passages in a rotary union if the valve is outside. Eric I've used a dual rotary union similar to this on a heated roller. Kind of spendy. Deublin also makes slip rings. http://www.deublin.com/2117-001-109/ Pete Keillor The max speed for that rotary union is only 250 RPM. I need 4000 RPM. The single passage ones go that fast while still being affordable. The dual passage ones that can spin that fast and have air going through them are about 10 times more expensive. Eric |
#35
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 2017-04-14, wrote:
[ ... ] seal against 2000 PSI hot oil up to about 1000 RPM. It was actually pretty easy to do. The design was informed by the Parker Seal folks. We were going through expensive rotary unions on this machine and my boss wanted one that would be easy and cheap to repair. The answer was using the correct rubber compound and letting a little oil leak past the O-rings. The union was built with a shroud that collected the slight leakage and drained the oil into the gundrill sump. I have since seen this type of design on high pressure hydraulic rotating actuators. It is apparently very common. But since I am using air special hard seals need to be used, O-rings just won't last. Eric Does it *matter* if the air union has some leaks? As long as you can get enough pressure through. Yes, it will cost more to run the compressor. Make it a labyrinth style for each part and try it -- first stationary, then rotating. You can make it with two passages on the inner part (which goes onto the tube), and two parts which bolt together around it bolted to the frame of the lathe. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#36
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:21:27 -0700, etpm wrote:
.... I already thought about the solenoid sticking. It will be concentric with the lathe spindle centerline. I'm not sure but I think the valves I have are piloted because they use so little current to change the valve position. And it changes fast. Anyway, I already use these valves with this closer as well as other air clamping devices. As to the two passage rotary union you linked to if you read the specs you will see they cannot be spun anywhere near as fast as I need to spin it. That's why I'm going through all this falderal (izzat how it's spelled?). [...] folderol appears to be the most-common spelling, but falderal, fol de rol, and fol-de-rol are linked as alternatives in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/folderol. https://goo.gl/RmUH86 links to a Google Ngrams chart that compares frequencies-in-books of the four spellings. -- jiw |
#37
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Electrical slip ring questions
Eric - do you remember what rubber compound was used on the gun drill?
Hul wrote: On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:37:18 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus wrote: Eric - perhaps just for information, you might try a side access air coupling. This would comprise the rotating center "tube" you mention surrounded by a metal piece with 2 "o-ring" seals for each air passage. You could setup a test on a drill press and use the local hardware store for "o-rings". Hopefully, the tube's diameter could be reduced. Probably first testing would be for max pressure with no rotation then with greater speeds. Next step would likely be searching for teflon "o-rings" or even higher temp types. Hul Greetings Hul, The rotary union I will be using is a side access one but the air comes out the center. The problem is the high speed, 4000 RPM. O-rings won't work in that application. It's really interesting to look online at rotary unions. Lots of single passage 150 PSI 4000 and higher RPM for air but not two or more. Years ago I had to design and make a custom rotary union for a gundrill machine where I worked. It had to seal against 2000 PSI hot oil up to about 1000 RPM. It was actually pretty easy to do. The design was informed by the Parker Seal folks. We were going through expensive rotary unions on this machine and my boss wanted one that would be easy and cheap to repair. The answer was using the correct rubber compound and letting a little oil leak past the O-rings. The union was built with a shroud that collected the slight leakage and drained the oil into the gundrill sump. I have since seen this type of design on high pressure hydraulic rotating actuators. It is apparently very common. But since I am using air special hard seals need to be used, O-rings just won't last. Eric wrote: On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 06:34:20 -0500, Pete Keillor wrote: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:15:09 -0700, wrote: On 13 Apr 2017 22:07:57 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2017-04-13, Jim Wilkins wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... How well do you think an electric motor would work as a rotary transformer? They are already balanced and built to withstand the RPMs. Well ... most of our electric motors are induction motors, where the rotor is just iron and copper (or aluminum) -- no connections to it other than magnetic coupling. However -- a universal motor (wound rotor and commutator) could perhaps act as a transformer -- with say AC fed into the field, and power picked up from the commutator. But the commutator would be fixed with relation to the field coil, so you still have the problem of getting the power to the solenoid valve. Break out the commutator, and pick one of the rotor windings and you have your AC (modulated by the rotation of the rotor poles relative to the field poles), but running those wires out to the solenoid valve would still be tricky. The wires would interfere with mounting of the bearing at that end -- unless you milled a couple of slots in the rotor shaft where the wires could be passed under the bearing. I really think that moving the solenoid valve to the outside of the rotary coupling would make more sense as I suggested at the start of my followup -- in spite of my having posted the design for machining magnetic cups and coils for getting the power in through the rotating shaft. Enjoy, DoN. Of course the valve mounted outside would be better. But that won't work because the closer is basically a double acting cylinder. This means that it needs air pressure to clamp and remain clamped, and air pressure to unclamp. So the rotary union would need two passages.The way I use the closer now is with a solenoid operated valve the has one air inlet, two outlets, and two exhausts.So when one side of the piston is pressurized the other side is exhausted to the atmosphere. Since air needs to be sent to both sides of a piston there needs to be two passages in a rotary union if the valve is outside. Eric I've used a dual rotary union similar to this on a heated roller. Kind of spendy. Deublin also makes slip rings. http://www.deublin.com/2117-001-109/ Pete Keillor The max speed for that rotary union is only 250 RPM. I need 4000 RPM. The single passage ones go that fast while still being affordable. The dual passage ones that can spin that fast and have air going through them are about 10 times more expensive. Eric |
#38
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Electrical slip ring questions
On 15 Apr 2017 03:49:46 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2017-04-14, wrote: [ ... ] seal against 2000 PSI hot oil up to about 1000 RPM. It was actually pretty easy to do. The design was informed by the Parker Seal folks. We were going through expensive rotary unions on this machine and my boss wanted one that would be easy and cheap to repair. The answer was using the correct rubber compound and letting a little oil leak past the O-rings. The union was built with a shroud that collected the slight leakage and drained the oil into the gundrill sump. I have since seen this type of design on high pressure hydraulic rotating actuators. It is apparently very common. But since I am using air special hard seals need to be used, O-rings just won't last. Eric Does it *matter* if the air union has some leaks? As long as you can get enough pressure through. Yes, it will cost more to run the compressor. Make it a labyrinth style for each part and try it -- first stationary, then rotating. You can make it with two passages on the inner part (which goes onto the tube), and two parts which bolt together around it bolted to the frame of the lathe. Enjoy, DoN. Greetings DoN, I thought about labryrinth sealing but air would leak out pretty fast. I suppose I could use the labyrinth seal for just the opening cycle so it would be leaking for the least amount of time. If the tube mounted solenoid valve doesn't work then maybe I'll give it a try. Cheers, Eric |
#39
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 06:42:48 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote: Eric - do you remember what rubber compound was used on the gun drill? Hul SNIP No. It was a long time ago. The rubber was not exotic though. I just looked for rubber compounds that could handle the temperature and oil composition. It mighta been EPDM. I don't think it was BUNA-N. Eric |
#40
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Electrical slip ring questions
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 04:40:26 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote: On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:21:27 -0700, etpm wrote: ... I already thought about the solenoid sticking. It will be concentric with the lathe spindle centerline. I'm not sure but I think the valves I have are piloted because they use so little current to change the valve position. And it changes fast. Anyway, I already use these valves with this closer as well as other air clamping devices. As to the two passage rotary union you linked to if you read the specs you will see they cannot be spun anywhere near as fast as I need to spin it. That's why I'm going through all this falderal (izzat how it's spelled?). [...] folderol appears to be the most-common spelling, but falderal, fol de rol, and fol-de-rol are linked as alternatives in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/folderol. https://goo.gl/RmUH86 links to a Google Ngrams chart that compares frequencies-in-books of the four spellings. I like the most common spelling. It just looks better. But I also like fol de rol. I can hear it being pronounced as three separate words. Thanks, Eric |
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