Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#42
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
|
#43
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
wrote in message
... On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 3:37:42 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:57:35 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:49:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote: On 2017-02-12, wrote: Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather well. They're MUCH better now. All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than ever because the steel is thinner. Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically expect them to last? Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments. A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty. If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation allowing moisture in from the back. Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees. As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet). Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really "clear" - it is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02 Taurus. I'm keeping an eye on my 2004 Focus and my 2004 Sonata. So far, they're both bright and shiny, with no rust (except under the hood of the Focus, which has what looks like plain carbon steel fasteners under the hood. Stupid, to save maybe 50 cents over galvanized or stainless.) Stainless never used under the hood - nor Galvanized We used to use either electro-zinc or more commonlt cadmium plating - but it is virtually impossible to do cadmium plating in North America today with EPA rules. The choice is plain steel American bolts or Chinese Cadmium. What would YOUR choice be??? Most underhood fasteners I've seen are conversion coated with zinc or some other phosphate. The bolts on my Hyundai have a black coating on top of some kind of zinc. After 12 years it's gotten pretty fluffy and looks like electrogalvanizing. The Ford bolts look uncoated. -- Ed Huntress Despite New England winter road salt the hardware on my 91 Ford came off easily and was still in good shape when I removed the bed, gas tank and front-to-rear brake line last summer. LPS-3 long ago helped but I couldn't reach everywhere underneath with it. -jsw |
#44
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
|
#45
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 16:19:58 -0800, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:45:18 -0500, wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 08:29:44 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote: Hi folks, Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles. Thanks, Chris Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford. They have virtually ALL done it on at least one model, and it was not a cost saving measure, in the main. It was because they had customers complaininh about high cold oil pressure, or low hot idle oil pressure, and they were all wasting WAY too much time and effort trying to explain why it was "normal". To avoid class action lawsuits for faulty oil pressure they simply made a n "idiot guage". Looks like "higher content" than an idiot light. I was looking at the oil gauge in my Toyota truck and was a little concerned that it would show right at the lowest mark when idling. I wondered if maybe I should start to worry about the truck because it is a '95. Then upon reading the manual I find that proper oil pressure when idling is 3 lbs. Now I don't worry. Eric Can you immagine being the service manager having to explain that to half of the paranoid customers at a dealership? They'd be "calling you anything but a white man", convinced you were lying to them, just trying to put off repairs untill THEY had to pay because it was off warranty? THAT is why they invented the "idiot guage" I went through that as a Toyota service manager many times. On a hot day the customer would come in complaining the OP guage was reading half a needle width lower - or after changing the oil - Or they'd come in complaing the oil pressure was too high and they were told by some backyard mechanic friend that it would cause the oil to get too hot, and waste gas - - - |
#46
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 3:45:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 08:29:44 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote: Hi folks, Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles. Thanks, Chris Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford. They have virtually ALL done it on at least one model, and it was not a cost saving measure, in the main. It was because they had customers complaininh about high cold oil pressure, or low hot idle oil pressure, and they were all wasting WAY too much time and effort trying to explain why it was "normal". To avoid class action lawsuits for faulty oil pressure they simply made a n "idiot guage". Looks like "higher content" than an idiot light. So, you're saying GM, Chrysler and the rest are doing this? Do you remember where you read this information? |
#47
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 08:29:44 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote: On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote: Hi folks, Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles. Thanks, Chris Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford. WHAT? It wasn't that way in my old '90 F-150 5L. Nor is it in my '07 Tundra 4.7L. They lowered at idle and raised at high RPM, and varied with the engine temp, as they should. That's unconscionable, as well as downright rude of Ford if it's true. But the local Ford dealer wanted over $40k for the same half ton pickemup truck that Toyota wanted $26k for. That was back when Ford was having quality problems and was thinking about offshoring more of its vehicles to Mexico. My old '90 was Hecho in Canuckistan. (Windsor, ON CA IIRC.) I'm happy I made the change to the better manufacturer, as I've been quite happy with the new truck for a decade. -- In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant. --Charles de Gaulle |
#48
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:37:41 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:57:35 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:49:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote: On 2017-02-12, wrote: Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather well. They're MUCH better now. All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than ever because the steel is thinner. Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically expect them to last? Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments. A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty. If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation allowing moisture in from the back. Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees. As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet). Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really "clear" - it is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02 Taurus. I'm keeping an eye on my 2004 Focus and my 2004 Sonata. So far, they're both bright and shiny, with no rust (except under the hood of the Focus, which has what looks like plain carbon steel fasteners under the hood. Stupid, to save maybe 50 cents over galvanized or stainless.) Stainless never used under the hood - nor Galvanized We used to use either electro-zinc or more commonlt cadmium plating - but it is virtually impossible to do cadmium plating in North America today with EPA rules. The choice is plain steel American bolts or Chinese Cadmium. What would YOUR choice be??? Plain zinc, y'mean? -- In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant. --Charles de Gaulle |
#49
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:27:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: My 1991 Ford Ranger has the gauge package instead of lights and all but Oil are functional. The Oil gauge uses a pressure switch and a resistor that you can bypass if you install a variable-resistance sender. http://forums.tccoa.com/37-work-prog...auge-pics.html I bought the $20 sensor and may install it if I have to remove the dash for another reason. However the gauge as-is instantly shows whether the engine has adequate pressure or not, and the dial face isn't graduated in pressure units. So install a temporary dial gauge and mark the dash gauge with a diamond scribe and felt-tip? Is there a reason other than cost for not using stainless hardware under the hood? I've been using it to replace broken plastic clips, though not graded steel bolts. SS loves to gall and seize, and it can be worse with same grade nut and bolt, so use a good anti-seize. A $7 bottle of Permatex al/cu/graphite from Amazon (8oz) will last you for decades. I like putting a dollop of it on an old wool sock (laundered, of course) and fold/squeeze it to distribute. Then take your bolt, fold the sock over the threaded portion and rotate 270 degrees, coating every thread to the root very quickly. Coats dozens before regooping. Store the sock in a ziplock bag for later use, keeping it with the A/S. At 5 minutes per entire project, it's a lot less time consuming than drilling out and tapping one single broken bolt. DAMHIKT. -- In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant. --Charles de Gaulle |
#51
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 21:11:10 -0600, Ignoramus27375
wrote: On 2017-02-22, wrote: Stainless never used under the hood - nor Galvanized We used to use either electro-zinc or more commonlt cadmium plating - but it is virtually impossible to do cadmium plating in North America today with EPA rules. The choice is plain steel American bolts or Chinese Cadmium. What would YOUR choice be??? spray everything with oil twice a year is my choice That method is likely quite ecologically disastrous, Ig. Perhaps not as bad as cad, but using something which does not wash off would be better. -- In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant. --Charles de Gaulle |
#52
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote: v Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is grounded. |
#53
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:32:05 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:27:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: My 1991 Ford Ranger has the gauge package instead of lights and all but Oil are functional. The Oil gauge uses a pressure switch and a resistor that you can bypass if you install a variable-resistance sender. http://forums.tccoa.com/37-work-prog...auge-pics.html I bought the $20 sensor and may install it if I have to remove the dash for another reason. However the gauge as-is instantly shows whether the engine has adequate pressure or not, and the dial face isn't graduated in pressure units. So install a temporary dial gauge and mark the dash gauge with a diamond scribe and felt-tip? Is there a reason other than cost for not using stainless hardware under the hood? I've been using it to replace broken plastic clips, though not graded steel bolts. SS loves to gall and seize, and it can be worse with same grade nut and bolt, so use a good anti-seize. A $7 bottle of Permatex al/cu/graphite from Amazon (8oz) will last you for decades. I like putting a dollop of it on an old wool sock (laundered, of course) and fold/squeeze it to distribute. Then take your bolt, fold the sock over the threaded portion and rotate 270 degrees, coating every thread to the root very quickly. Coats dozens before regooping. Store the sock in a ziplock bag for later use, keeping it with the A/S. At 5 minutes per entire project, it's a lot less time consuming than drilling out and tapping one single broken bolt. DAMHIKT. Good trick. |
#54
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
Electronic dash boards are always suspect. There are small computing
elements everywhere nowadays. I notice mine reads once a while. And at startup to begin with. If cold - low gas, low oil, low battery. After the engine warms up or I drive a half mile or a full one the meters re-measure and there I go. Not all that bad. Not low on anything. So it is often the first reading that fakes one out - taking it at an odd time. Martin On 2/22/2017 10:29 AM, Garrett Fulton wrote: On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote: Hi folks, Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles. Thanks, Chris Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford. |
#55
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:16:17 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 21:11:10 -0600, Ignoramus27375 wrote: On 2017-02-22, wrote: Stainless never used under the hood - nor Galvanized We used to use either electro-zinc or more commonlt cadmium plating - but it is virtually impossible to do cadmium plating in North America today with EPA rules. The choice is plain steel American bolts or Chinese Cadmium. What would YOUR choice be??? spray everything with oil twice a year is my choice That method is likely quite ecologically disastrous, Ig. Perhaps not as bad as cad, but using something which does not wash off would be better. How about lanolin based underoil spray? Or vegi based. I prefer the lanolin - like Fluid Film, or NHoilundercoating, A friend operated an undercoating business for years, and he mixed lanolin and paraffin hot, and sprayed it on underbodies. Quite a few "proprietary" dripless underoil products have lanolin and no petroleum products. |
#56
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: v Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is grounded. I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light. |
#57
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote: On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: v Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is grounded. I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light. Hopefully the pilots aren't as "brain dead" as a lot of car owners/drivers. The ones I had the most trouble with were bloody engineers and hoity-toity "connoisseurs" who fancied themselves automotive experts just because they could afford to buy whatever crossed their fancy at the time. "MY porsche never had that kind of pressure fluctuation" (or insert Audi, Mercedes, Ferrari, or whatever) after buying a new Supra or whatever. |
#58
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
... On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:27:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: My 1991 Ford Ranger has the gauge package instead of lights and all but Oil are functional. The Oil gauge uses a pressure switch and a resistor that you can bypass if you install a variable-resistance sender. http://forums.tccoa.com/37-work-prog...auge-pics.html I bought the $20 sensor and may install it if I have to remove the dash for another reason. However the gauge as-is instantly shows whether the engine has adequate pressure or not, and the dial face isn't graduated in pressure units. So install a temporary dial gauge and mark the dash gauge with a diamond scribe and felt-tip? Is there a reason other than cost for not using stainless hardware under the hood? I've been using it to replace broken plastic clips, though not graded steel bolts. SS loves to gall and seize, and it can be worse with same grade nut and bolt, so use a good anti-seize. A $7 bottle of Permatex al/cu/graphite from Amazon (8oz) will last you for decades. I like putting a dollop of it on an old wool sock (laundered, of course) and fold/squeeze it to distribute. Then take your bolt, fold the sock over the threaded portion and rotate 270 degrees, coating every thread to the root very quickly. Coats dozens before regooping. Store the sock in a ziplock bag for later use, keeping it with the A/S. At 5 minutes per entire project, it's a lot less time consuming than drilling out and tapping one single broken bolt. DAMHIKT. Four decades, specifically. The can of Never-Seez I bought around 1975 finally ran low last year, though I still have plenty of LPS-100 for frame and bumper bolts. Spark plug threads given a single dab with the brush attached to the cap come out the next time completely covered, I don't need to mess up my fingers, tools and the plug insulator with a greasy rag. That end of the plug will see only a bit of the silicone from the wire boot. Since it contains metal dust it isn't a good high voltage insulator. I just checked a 10mm long stripe of it on a paper towel with a 1 kilovolt megger. Well before I was cranking fast enough to reach 1000V it suddenly broke down and indicated about 2 megohms. I do know about drilling broken bolts. One of the screws attaching the Ranger's defective ignition module to the intake manifold sheared off. The manifold is too big to clamp on my mill, so I machined a drill jig (guide) that indexed on the other screws and drilled the broken one cleanly enough to reuse the threads in the aluminum manifold. -jsw |
#59
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 12:15:16 AM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: v Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is grounded. I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light. Hopefully the pilots aren't as "brain dead" as a lot of car owners/drivers. The ones I had the most trouble with were bloody engineers and hoity-toity "connoisseurs" who fancied themselves automotive experts just because they could afford to buy whatever crossed their fancy at the time. "MY porsche never had that kind of pressure fluctuation" (or insert Audi, Mercedes, Ferrari, or whatever) after buying a new Supra or whatever. Most of the pilots were good guys. But you always had that 10%. "The Cactus Crew". You know the difference between a cactus and a cockpit? A cactus has all the pricks on the outside. |
#60
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote: On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: v Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is grounded. I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light. Well, I was an airplane mechanic too and if I remember all the instruments has colored marks on them to tell the Engineer when the oil pressure (for example) got too low :-) As for the guys in the front seats, they had a big loud warning bell, buzzer. siren, to tell the drivers when they slowed down too much :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#61
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
|
#62
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
|
#63
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 23:25:01 -0500, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:32:05 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:27:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: My 1991 Ford Ranger has the gauge package instead of lights and all but Oil are functional. The Oil gauge uses a pressure switch and a resistor that you can bypass if you install a variable-resistance sender. http://forums.tccoa.com/37-work-prog...auge-pics.html I bought the $20 sensor and may install it if I have to remove the dash for another reason. However the gauge as-is instantly shows whether the engine has adequate pressure or not, and the dial face isn't graduated in pressure units. So install a temporary dial gauge and mark the dash gauge with a diamond scribe and felt-tip? Is there a reason other than cost for not using stainless hardware under the hood? I've been using it to replace broken plastic clips, though not graded steel bolts. SS loves to gall and seize, and it can be worse with same grade nut and bolt, so use a good anti-seize. A $7 bottle of Permatex al/cu/graphite from Amazon (8oz) will last you for decades. I like putting a dollop of it on an old wool sock (laundered, of course) and fold/squeeze it to distribute. Then take your bolt, fold the sock over the threaded portion and rotate 270 degrees, coating every thread to the root very quickly. Coats dozens before regooping. Store the sock in a ziplock bag for later use, keeping it with the A/S. At 5 minutes per entire project, it's a lot less time consuming than drilling out and tapping one single broken bolt. DAMHIKT. Good trick. Thanks. I hate waste and frozen bolts. -- In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant. --Charles de Gaulle |
#64
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
"John B." wrote in message
... On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: .... Well, I was an airplane mechanic too and if I remember all the instruments has colored marks on them to tell the Engineer when the oil pressure (for example) got too low :-) As for the guys in the front seats, they had a big loud warning bell, buzzer. siren, to tell the drivers when they slowed down too much :-) -- Cheers, John B. The Air France crash in the South Atlantic is a good example of the difficulty of predicting in advance what warning the operator should be given while their attention is on controlling the vehicle. Too much or misleading info can be worse than not enough. http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/a...air-france-447 "At one point the pilot briefly pushed the stick forward. Then, in a grotesque miscue unforeseen by the designers of the fly-by-wire software, the stall warning, which had been silenced, as designed, by very low indicated airspeed, came to life. The pilot, probably inferring that whatever he had just done must have been wrong, returned the stick to its climb position and kept it there for the remainder of the flight." I read the CVR transcript in French and it supports the article's conjectures. The airliner descended approximately level in or near a Deep Stall, relatively stable in nose-high pitch but not in roll, which kept the cockpit crew fully occupied and confused about what was happening. The flight controls had less than their normal effect and the engines showed the expected full power RPMs though they weren't receiving the airflow to produce the corresponding thrust. The pitot tubes had iced up in the storm's rising (super?)saturated air and given the pilots and flight control computer incorrect low airspeed values, initiating the problem, then probably soon thawed and showed similar correct low values of forward airspeed because by then the plane had gently stalled in Coffin Corner and was falling mainly downward, its forward indicated airspeed below the stall warning low cutoff until the captain tried nosing down, which was the proper way to break out of the stall and regain airspeed and control. Similarly, a NASA engineer told me the inside story of Neil Armstrong's computer "failure" during the moon landing. The computer serviced all inputs in a program loop. There was a warning light kept Off by a hardware watchdog timer that the program would reset on each pass unless it hung. The timeout was comfortably long enough in all preflight tests but during the moon landing some added tasking extended the loop beyond the timeout and allowed the warning light to flicker On before the end of each loop pass, which Armstrong interpreted as the failure it was supposed to indicate, not just an unexpectedly high workload. I knew something of the issue from designing industrial control panels and then watching mindless UAW drones misuse them. I learned that controls had to be not only idiot-proof but vandal-proof. Although I had no design input on the aerospace electronics I prototyped I paid attention to the discussions about their possible effect on cockpit situational awareness. There was a joke circulating at the time that the automated airliner cockpit of the future would contain a man and a dog. The dog was trained to bite the man if he touched the controls. The man's only task was to feed the dog. -jsw |
#65
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On 02/23/2017 8:29 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
.... I knew something of the issue from designing industrial control panels and then watching mindless UAW drones misuse them. I learned that controls had to be not only idiot-proof but vandal-proof. Although I had no design input on the aerospace electronics I prototyped I paid attention to the discussions about their possible effect on cockpit situational awareness. There was a joke circulating at the time that the automated airliner cockpit of the future would contain a man and a dog. The dog was trained to bite the man if he touched the controls. The man's only task was to feed the dog. Not only aircraft; TMI-II became something more than just a turbine trip causing a reactor trip with the sidebar of a steam relief valve not reclosing automagically because the latter caused an anomolous level reading in the physically nearby pressurizer level. This was misinterpreted by reactor operators and they subsequently turned off the safety system HPI (high pressure injection) pumps fearing were going to overfill the pressurizer and if that were to happen, risk over-pressurizing the primary system itself. The incident progressed downhill from there until a fresh shift came on and the SRO on that shift recognized the problem and restarted HPI plus RCPs to restore primary coolant flow and begin the recovery process. If the original crew had done nothing but let the control and safety systems do their job instead of intervening, the incident would have consisted of no more than an unscheduled trip and restart once the initiating fault in the transmission yard that was the initiating event. (They lost connection to the grid owing to transformer failure at full power (850 MWe) which left nowhere for the generator output to go so that initiated the turbine trip. System was designed to be able to handle a "full load rejection" trip, but owing to various other conditions, runback couldn't always be fast enough so a reactor trip could also be expected maybe half the time.) -- |
#66
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
"dpb" wrote in message
news On 02/23/2017 8:29 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote: ... I knew something of the issue from designing industrial control panels and then watching mindless UAW drones misuse them. I learned that controls had to be not only idiot-proof but vandal-proof. Although I had no design input on the aerospace electronics I prototyped I paid attention to the discussions about their possible effect on cockpit situational awareness. There was a joke circulating at the time that the automated airliner cockpit of the future would contain a man and a dog. The dog was trained to bite the man if he touched the controls. The man's only task was to feed the dog. Not only aircraft; TMI-II became something more than just a turbine trip causing a reactor trip with the sidebar of a steam relief valve not reclosing automagically because the latter caused an anomolous level reading in the physically nearby pressurizer level. This was misinterpreted by reactor operators and they subsequently turned off the safety system HPI (high pressure injection) pumps fearing were going to overfill the pressurizer and if that were to happen, risk over-pressurizing the primary system itself. The incident progressed downhill from there until a fresh shift came on and the SRO on that shift recognized the problem and restarted HPI plus RCPs to restore primary coolant flow and begin the recovery process. If the original crew had done nothing but let the control and safety systems do their job instead of intervening, the incident would have consisted of no more than an unscheduled trip and restart once the initiating fault in the transmission yard that was the initiating event. (They lost connection to the grid owing to transformer failure at full power (850 MWe) which left nowhere for the generator output to go so that initiated the turbine trip. System was designed to be able to handle a "full load rejection" trip, but owing to various other conditions, runback couldn't always be fast enough so a reactor trip could also be expected maybe half the time.) Neon John is the expert on that incident. I've discontinued my research on recent infrastructure accidents which could be mistaken for a search for exploitable vulnerabilities. |
#67
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On 02/23/2017 11:47 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
.... Neon John is the expert on that incident. ... No idea who that might be; I was (nuke) engineer at the reactor vendor until the summer before the incident; had at the time just moved to Oak Ridge w/ small consulting firm; we were on incident response team via contract to NRC by 9AM the morning of the incident so I'm pretty-much familiar with both the specific reactor design and the incident... -- |
#68
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
"dpb" wrote in message
news On 02/23/2017 11:47 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote: ... Neon John is the expert on that incident. ... No idea who that might be; I was (nuke) engineer at the reactor vendor until the summer before the incident; had at the time just moved to Oak Ridge w/ small consulting firm; we were on incident response team via contract to NRC by 9AM the morning of the incident so I'm pretty-much familiar with both the specific reactor design and the incident... -- John DeArmond |
#69
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
... I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8. Yeah, those 1880's were some years, weren't they. Haha, just kidding. But anyway, could you imagine the looks on a bunch of cowboys and indians faces if they saw a 1967 Pontiac revving up? |
#70
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:44:25 +0700, John B.
wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton wrote: v Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is grounded. I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light. Well, I was an airplane mechanic too and if I remember all the instruments has colored marks on them to tell the Engineer when the oil pressure (for example) got too low :-) As for the guys in the front seats, they had a big loud warning bell, buzzer. siren, to tell the drivers when they slowed down too much :-) Also the BFRL - Big Flashing Red Light for when anything else goes wrong. |
#71
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news "dpb" wrote in message news On 02/23/2017 11:47 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote: ... Neon John is the expert on that incident. ... No idea who that might be; I was (nuke) engineer at the reactor vendor until the summer before the incident; had at the time just moved to Oak Ridge w/ small consulting firm; we were on incident response team via contract to NRC by 9AM the morning of the incident so I'm pretty-much familiar with both the specific reactor design and the incident... -- John DeArmond Sorry if I wasn't clear that I meant -I- don't know much about TMI, not you. |
#72
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
wrote in message
... On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: ... I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8. Yeah, those 1880's were some years, weren't they. Haha, just kidding. But anyway, could you imagine the looks on a bunch of cowboys and indians faces if they saw a 1967 Pontiac revving up? Its performance on the roads of the time wouldn't impress anyone. An Army friend in Germany had a gorgeous 72 Firebird Trans Am that bottomed out too easily on German back roads. Cobblestones and some older concrete stretches of Autobahn were a risk for it too. |
#73
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
|
#74
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
|
#75
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:06:08 -0500, William Bagwell
wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:25:45 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: ... I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8. Yeah, those 1880's were some years, weren't they. Haha, just kidding. But anyway, could you imagine the looks on a bunch of cowboys and indians faces if they saw a 1967 Pontiac revving up? How do you "see" an engine revving up? (other than the dust) Nice catch! But it has been done, though it was a slightly newer Delorean not a 67 Pontiac. Great Scott! Heavy! Where's my spare flux capacitor? "They" have kits now. http://geekologie.com/2014/12/30000-...conversion.php -- In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant. --Charles de Gaulle |
#76
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On 02/23/2017 4:36 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
.... Sorry if I wasn't clear that I meant -I- don't know much about TMI, not you. Ahhhh...gotcha' (now )...thanks. Was only using the incident to agree with the earlier anecdote that the human often _is_ the weak link in the chain/loop. -- |
#77
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 19:02:55 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:06:08 -0500, William Bagwell wrote: Nice catch! But it has been done, though it was a slightly newer Delorean not a 67 Pontiac. Great Scott! Heavy! Where's my spare flux capacitor? "They" have kits now. http://geekologie.com/2014/12/30000-...conversion.php Ouch! 30 grand is a bit out of my price range. My Delorean story: Back in the late 70s I bought a used Miller TIG welder. Mid 80s I got married and needing cash sold it. The person who bought it was from out of state and showed up in a rental truck. (Leaving out a bunch here) Apparently in a hurry because he initially declined my offer of the power disconnect switch. Big ugly thing that had been re-painted, on top of *rust*, many years before... A few days later he changed his mind and called me back asking for the disconnect. I said sure, and he asked if I could meet his buddy at a local mall. Friend shows up in a Delorean! We proceeded to stick a nasty rusty flaking paint disconnect box in the trunk of a (then) brand new car. -- William |
#78
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On 02/24/2017 03:19 PM, William Bagwell wrote:
My Delorean story: Back in the late 70s I bought a used Miller TIG welder. Mid 80s I got married and needing cash sold it. The person who bought it was from out of state and showed up in a rental truck. (Leaving out a bunch here) Apparently in a hurry because he initially declined my offer of the power disconnect switch. Big ugly thing that had been re-painted, on top of *rust*, many years before... A few days later he changed his mind and called me back asking for the disconnect. I said sure, and he asked if I could meet his buddy at a local mall. Friend shows up in a Delorean! We proceeded to stick a nasty rusty flaking paint disconnect box in the trunk of a (then) brand new car. Snyder National Bank, in Snyder, Texas, had a 24K Gold-Plated DeLorean im the lobby when I lived there in the late 80s. It's now at the Petersen Automotive Museum in Los Angeles. The factory apparently gold-plated three of them, and a fourth was assembled from spare parts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Iz2WBGiMo |
#79
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Modern car paint and rust
On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 18:19:25 -0500, William Bagwell
wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 19:02:55 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:06:08 -0500, William Bagwell wrote: Nice catch! But it has been done, though it was a slightly newer Delorean not a 67 Pontiac. Great Scott! Heavy! Where's my spare flux capacitor? "They" have kits now. http://geekologie.com/2014/12/30000-...conversion.php Ouch! 30 grand is a bit out of my price range. Yeah, probably out of the reach of most people, and the suppliers. Mr. Fusions are really hard to source, but if they ever come out, == I WANT ONE! == My Delorean story: Back in the late 70s I bought a used Miller TIG welder. Mid 80s I got married and needing cash sold it. The person who bought it was from out of state and showed up in a rental truck. (Leaving out a bunch here) Apparently in a hurry because he initially declined my offer of the power disconnect switch. Big ugly thing that had been re-painted, on top of *rust*, many years before... A few days later he changed his mind and called me back asking for the disconnect. I said sure, and he asked if I could meet his buddy at a local mall. Friend shows up in a Delorean! We proceeded to stick a nasty rusty flaking paint disconnect box in the trunk of a (then) brand new car. That's funny. They were cool and unusual cars...if you didn't do coke. http://mentalfloss.com/article/54600...-john-delorean -- In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant. --Charles de Gaulle |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
gas pipe rust and paint | Home Repair | |||
rust showing through paint | UK diy | |||
Modern paint remover | UK diy | |||
Rust Paint and Standard Paint. | Metalworking | |||
Modern Paint, Old Paint Gun? | Woodworking |