Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Got the injector working

I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric
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Default Got the injector working

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800, wrote:

I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric

I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The
nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out
with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the
nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move
though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The
existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle
because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about
..008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight
with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that
only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being
deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe
I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with
one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing
orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole
pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line.
Eric
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Default Got the injector working

wrote in message
...
I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if
the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried
the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly
enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work
better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed
to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always
be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I
don't
generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the
amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric


A good initial assumption is that if the process is inherently linear
you need trims for gain and offset. The offset trim corrects for zero
errors such as a minimum pulse width to open the valve. You might find
that 1 gives no fluid, 2 gives 1 unit, 3 gives 2 units, 4 gives 3
units, etc.
-jsw


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Default Got the injector working

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800,
wrote:

I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric

I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The
nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out
with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the
nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move
though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The
existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle
because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about
.008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight
with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that
only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being
deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe
I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with
one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing
orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole
pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line.
Eric

Or perhaps you can locate an injector with a tighter spray pattern
from a different application.
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Default Got the injector working

wrote in message
...
I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery.


If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to work
with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring
groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for low
pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure
retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction you
can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for a
lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc.
Will a piston be controllable and do the job?

An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it.


I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air
drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after with
filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is water,
not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in.


The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric


Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just
need two linear pots to control them.





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Default Got the injector working

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote:


. The
existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle
because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about
.008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight
with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that
only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being
deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe
I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with
one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing
orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole
pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line.
Eric


You have the wrong kind of injector. Sounds like a throttle body
injector. You need a conventional injector, the type that mounts on
each individual intake runner.

It will have one hole. The pintle injector usually has a little
pattern-shaping rod sticking out of the hole. The diaphragm injectors
as used by GM in the 80s and 90s (and probably longer) shoot a narrow
solid stream. This is the injector you want.

If you go to the parts store, ask for an injector for an early 90s
Chevy Caprice 9C1. This is the cop version of the caprice and
contains an iron block Corvette engine. Corvette injectors would also
work but the price would be higher.

Bladder reservoirs are available from McMaster-Carr. I suggest going
up in pressure. You might consider using hexane (McMaster) as the
dilutent. It will mostly have evaporated by the time the shot reaches
the target.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

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Default Got the injector working

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800, wrote:

I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI.


Is that with the filter back in place? With more viscous liquids,
temperature can make a large difference, so keep that in mind, as
well.


The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.


I'm not sure how small they go and what diaphragms they use (oil
proof?) but well water pumps work against a pressurized tank to
maintain pressure. The membrane separated the air from the water.

Lincoln had an accumulator in their brake systems on the Continentals
way back. Brake hydraulic pressure was run through the steering pump
to activate the accumulator, providing assist to the brake master
cylinder, giving you a lighter pedal. (Most cars use vacuum assist for
power brakes.) IIRC, they were about 6x6", but they might be too
pricy for this. I don't know if they could be utilized in a
lower-pressure format, or run in reverse (I never took one apart to
see the innards), but you could check.

What kind of volume are you going to maintain? What size reservoir?


In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air.


True. Moisture and oxidation are not your friends.


When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it.


Why not keep the reservoir enclosed, away from air? I suppose it
depends on how finicky your specific cutting fluid is.


The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out.


Maybe a toothed curve to allow small droplets to spread out the
diverted oil as it drips off. What tip style did you say you had?


Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.


_That_ you'll have to play with, numbers vs full turns.
Run it and measure, charting the output at various temps and
viscosities (if those vary). Optimize the pulse width with the 555's
RC circuit values, right? That's the fun part, once you have a new
device working.

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty."
Attributed to Thomas Jefferson, but Massah Ed, he doan tink it so.
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Default Got the injector working

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800,
wrote:

I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric

I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The
nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out
with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the
nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move
though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The
existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle
because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about
.008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight
with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that
only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being
deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe
I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with
one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing
orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole
pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line.


If the cylinder is emptying fast, perhaps you need a much larger
reservoir. What kind of flow volume are you working with? ML per
sec/min/hr? Ounces?

If you need a certain direction and are having problems with the flow,
consider machining a block of brass or AL with those characteristics
and insert the injector into that. Perhaps drill and tap it for
mister or spray nozzles? The injector would be turned into the flow
meter rather than both meter and applicator. If it dribbles at the
end of the run, perhaps you could put a valve on the spray tip block
or tube.

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty."
Attributed to Thomas Jefferson, but Massah Ed, he doan tink it so.
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Default Got the injector working

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:49:11 -0500, Neon John wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote:


. The
existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle
because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about
.008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight
with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that
only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being
deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe
I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with
one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing
orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole
pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line.
Eric


You have the wrong kind of injector. Sounds like a throttle body
injector. You need a conventional injector, the type that mounts on
each individual intake runner.

It will have one hole. The pintle injector usually has a little
pattern-shaping rod sticking out of the hole. The diaphragm injectors
as used by GM in the 80s and 90s (and probably longer) shoot a narrow
solid stream. This is the injector you want.

If you go to the parts store, ask for an injector for an early 90s
Chevy Caprice 9C1. This is the cop version of the caprice and
contains an iron block Corvette engine. Corvette injectors would also
work but the price would be higher.

Bladder reservoirs are available from McMaster-Carr. I suggest going
up in pressure. You might consider using hexane (McMaster) as the
dilutent. It will mostly have evaporated by the time the shot reaches
the target.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

Thanks for the injector info John. When it is all working I won't be
using any type of diluent. The reason I am now is so I can practice
without losing any of the actual cutting tool lubricant because it is
so expensive. So I diluted some oil with some kerosene to mimic the
the viscosity of the real stuff.
Eric
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Default Got the injector working

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:49:11 -0500, Neon John wrote:

You have the wrong kind of injector. Sounds like a throttle body
injector. You need a conventional injector, the type that mounts on
each individual intake runner.

It will have one hole. The pintle injector usually has a little
pattern-shaping rod sticking out of the hole. The diaphragm injectors
as used by GM in the 80s and 90s (and probably longer) shoot a narrow
solid stream. This is the injector you want.

If you go to the parts store, ask for an injector for an early 90s
Chevy Caprice 9C1. This is the cop version of the caprice and
contains an iron block Corvette engine. Corvette injectors would also
work but the price would be higher.

Bladder reservoirs are available from McMaster-Carr. I suggest going
up in pressure. You might consider using hexane (McMaster) as the
dilutent. It will mostly have evaporated by the time the shot reaches
the target.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com

The injector you mention above, the Chevy one, IS a throttle body
injector. At least that's how they are listed online. I'm a little
confused about injectors, I need to do some more research.
Eric


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Default Got the injector working

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 21:39:17 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800,
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800,
wrote:

I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric

I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The
nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out
with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the
nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move
though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The
existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle
because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about
.008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight
with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that
only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being
deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe
I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with
one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing
orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole
pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line.
Eric

Or perhaps you can locate an injector with a tighter spray pattern
from a different application.

It's hard finding the right pattern Clare, there are so many. I really
want a flat cone. Like a flat fan. The injector I have on hand does
not use a pintle, but I don't know what the internals are like, what
kind of valve it actually has. But I'm betting it has a needle valve,
as opposed to a disc like the Lucas injectors. It may be possible to
machine the orifice disc completely out and replace it with one of my
own design.
Eric
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Default Got the injector working

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:59:45 -0800, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 21:39:17 -0500,
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800,
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800,
wrote:

I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric
I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The
nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out
with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the
nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move
though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The
existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle
because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about
.008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight
with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that
only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being
deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe
I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with
one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing
orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole
pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line.
Eric

Or perhaps you can locate an injector with a tighter spray pattern
from a different application.

It's hard finding the right pattern Clare, there are so many. I really
want a flat cone. Like a flat fan. The injector I have on hand does
not use a pintle, but I don't know what the internals are like, what
kind of valve it actually has. But I'm betting it has a needle valve,
as opposed to a disc like the Lucas injectors. It may be possible to
machine the orifice disc completely out and replace it with one of my
own design.
Eric

What make, model and engine is it from, or what is the number on it?
  #14   Report Post  
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Default Got the injector working

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 17:59:25 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:59:45 -0800,
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 21:39:17 -0500,
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800,
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800,
wrote:

I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric
I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The
nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out
with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the
nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move
though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The
existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle
because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about
.008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight
with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that
only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being
deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe
I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with
one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing
orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole
pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line.
Eric
Or perhaps you can locate an injector with a tighter spray pattern
from a different application.

It's hard finding the right pattern Clare, there are so many. I really
want a flat cone. Like a flat fan. The injector I have on hand does
not use a pintle, but I don't know what the internals are like, what
kind of valve it actually has. But I'm betting it has a needle valve,
as opposed to a disc like the Lucas injectors. It may be possible to
machine the orifice disc completely out and replace it with one of my
own design.
Eric

What make, model and engine is it from, or what is the number on it?

It's from an old Acura, 1980 someting vintage. I think. Anyway, here
are the numbers:
On the side with the + symbol near the connection-35310-23600
On the opposite side-9 260 930 013
The injector is an off white color.
The orifice disc has 4 holes in it.
There is also a symbol molded in that looks like the stylized H in an
oval that Hyundai uses. But I was told it came from an Acura.
Eric
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Default Got the injector working

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:10:36 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery.


If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to work
with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring
groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for low
pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure
retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction you
can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for a
lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc.
Will a piston be controllable and do the job?

An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it.


I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air
drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after with
filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is water,
not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in.


The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric


Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just
need two linear pots to control them.


A piston will do the job, it only needs to move when the pressure is
relieved on one side when the injector is open. The other side of the
piston is pressurized with shop air. I already have the 555 thing
worked out. I have the pause between pulses and pulse length. So when
power is supplied it starts the pulse/pause routine and stops when
power is removed. Most of the time the pulse will be fairly short and
the pause time long because a tap will be getting lubed and this
needs to happen only once per hole. But when milling there will be
short pause times. The timer activation and de-activation will be
programmed with a M code.
Eric


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Posts: 18,538
Default Got the injector working

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 17:25:31 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 17:59:25 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:59:45 -0800,
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 21:39:17 -0500,
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800,
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800,
wrote:

I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric
I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The
nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out
with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the
nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move
though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The
existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle
because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about
.008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight
with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that
only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being
deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe
I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with
one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing
orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole
pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line.
Eric
Or perhaps you can locate an injector with a tighter spray pattern
from a different application.
It's hard finding the right pattern Clare, there are so many. I really
want a flat cone. Like a flat fan. The injector I have on hand does
not use a pintle, but I don't know what the internals are like, what
kind of valve it actually has. But I'm betting it has a needle valve,
as opposed to a disc like the Lucas injectors. It may be possible to
machine the orifice disc completely out and replace it with one of my
own design.
Eric

What make, model and engine is it from, or what is the number on it?

It's from an old Acura, 1980 someting vintage. I think. Anyway, here
are the numbers:
On the side with the + symbol near the connection-35310-23600
On the opposite side-9 260 930 013
The injector is an off white color.
The orifice disc has 4 holes in it.
There is also a symbol molded in that looks like the stylized H in an
oval that Hyundai uses. But I was told it came from an Acura.
Eric

The part number is for an injector from a Hyundai or Kia. Beta 2
engine and they are rated at 190cc. They apparently actually test at
196cc at 45psi.

You really want a Lucas style disc injector.

see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oTirEZNRw8

I think a 3.8L GM V6 is one source but they are twice the flow rate of
what you have.

BMW 325E would be closer to what you have but needs a ballast resistor
to run on 12 volts. (Low Impedence)
1.6 liter ford too - but those are not common in America.
Some 5.7 Chevys used them too. along with a lot of others.
  #18   Report Post  
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Default Got the injector working

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 18:41:23 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 1/24/2017 6:13 PM, wrote:
...
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube
exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always
be
a little moisture in the air. ...


Would it make that much difference? Would it make any difference?
How
much moisture could be absorbed from the air? There is probably a
well
known answer, except to me.

I don't know if direct contact with humid air will cause any
problems
over time. Maybe not. But since I am building the thing from scratch
I
thought I would save time and do it now. The reservoir can be any
shape so why not make it round and drop a piston in between the oil
and the air? With my present system the oil is exposed to air and
one
type of oil did thicken over time. I don't know if it was because of
exposure to moisture. The oil is vegetable based, proprietary, and
the
outfit selling it wouldn't say whether moisture could be a problem.
I
am now going to be using a different brand of MQL lube and I just
want
as many problems as possible worked out ahead of time. I am having
fun
figuring out how to make the new applicator system. Help from people
here has been, well, very helpful. And as a bonus it's all
metalworking related.
Eric


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancidification
"Akin to rancidification, oxidative degradation also occurs in other
hydrocarbons, e.g. lubricating oils, fuels, and mechanical cutting
fluids."


  #20   Report Post  
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Posts: 1,768
Default Got the injector working

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:10:36 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery.


If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to
work
with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring
groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for
low
pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure
retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction
you
can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for
a
lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc.
Will a piston be controllable and do the job?

An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it.


I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air
drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after
with
filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is
water,
not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in.


The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric


Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just
need two linear pots to control them.


A piston will do the job, it only needs to move when the pressure is
relieved on one side when the injector is open. The other side of the
piston is pressurized with shop air. I already have the 555 thing
worked out. I have the pause between pulses and pulse length. So when
power is supplied it starts the pulse/pause routine and stops when
power is removed. Most of the time the pulse will be fairly short and
the pause time long because a tap will be getting lubed and this
needs to happen only once per hole. But when milling there will be
short pause times. The timer activation and de-activation will be
programmed with a M code.
Eric


I've been out of the communications contracting business for 27 days now so
forgive me for being a little rusty. I forgot to mention there are modestly
priced timers available already assembled. The Altronixs 6060 board comes
to mind. Yeah they aren't as cheap as the components, but the time to make
it up costs me more than the price of the board.





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Posts: 18,538
Default Got the injector working

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 09:59:16 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:10:36 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery.

If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to
work
with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring
groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for
low
pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure
retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction
you
can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for
a
lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc.
Will a piston be controllable and do the job?

An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it.

I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air
drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after
with
filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is
water,
not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in.


The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric

Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just
need two linear pots to control them.


A piston will do the job, it only needs to move when the pressure is
relieved on one side when the injector is open. The other side of the
piston is pressurized with shop air. I already have the 555 thing
worked out. I have the pause between pulses and pulse length. So when
power is supplied it starts the pulse/pause routine and stops when
power is removed. Most of the time the pulse will be fairly short and
the pause time long because a tap will be getting lubed and this
needs to happen only once per hole. But when milling there will be
short pause times. The timer activation and de-activation will be
programmed with a M code.
Eric


I've been out of the communications contracting business for 27 days now so
forgive me for being a little rusty. I forgot to mention there are modestly
priced timers available already assembled. The Altronixs 6060 board comes
to mind. Yeah they aren't as cheap as the components, but the time to make
it up costs me more than the price of the board.



Or just get a cheap arduino and you can even implement "peak and hold"

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Default Got the injector working

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 09:59:16 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:10:36 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the
lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the
injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the
filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using
oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the
injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to
address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an
O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be
stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough
causing erratic fluid delivery.

If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to
work
with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring
groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for
low
pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure
retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction
you
can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for
a
lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc.
Will a piston be controllable and do the job?

An inflatable bladder would probably
work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll
have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better.
In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to
the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be
a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a
nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't
generally use it.

I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air
drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after
with
filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is
water,
not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in.


The other thing I need to chnage is the spray
pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a
deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's
my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be
weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured
out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have
some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount
of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much
fluid delivered as a setting of 2.
Eric

Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just
need two linear pots to control them.


A piston will do the job, it only needs to move when the pressure is
relieved on one side when the injector is open. The other side of the
piston is pressurized with shop air. I already have the 555 thing
worked out. I have the pause between pulses and pulse length. So when
power is supplied it starts the pulse/pause routine and stops when
power is removed. Most of the time the pulse will be fairly short and
the pause time long because a tap will be getting lubed and this
needs to happen only once per hole. But when milling there will be
short pause times. The timer activation and de-activation will be
programmed with a M code.
Eric


I've been out of the communications contracting business for 27 days now so
forgive me for being a little rusty. I forgot to mention there are modestly
priced timers available already assembled. The Altronixs 6060 board comes
to mind. Yeah they aren't as cheap as the components, but the time to make
it up costs me more than the price of the board.


I already have the timer made Bob, but thanks anyway.
Eric
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