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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric
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On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way
to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or
someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can
be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is
thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway.
The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water
thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5
weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and
kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid
reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard
for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future.
Thanks,
Eric


I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers
out of my ass and do math on them:

60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour

3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second

(2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6
gallons/squirt.

(5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt.

(700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt.

This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh
-- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're
looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is
a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
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Default Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

wrote in message
news
Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel
is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector
would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric


The minimum that the idling engine needs may not be the lowest the
injector can deliver. You can lower the pressure and experiment with
pulse widths too short to fully open the valve.
http://www.automotivetestsolutions.c...waveforms.html

The article mentions how the clamping voltage affects turn-off time.
There's a similar trick to decrease turn-on time, increase the driving
voltage and add a series resistor that keeps the steady-state current
through the coil the same. The higher voltage forces a more rapid
current rise through the coil at the start when inductance limits the
rate of change. I made a small relay close or open in half a
millisecond using these methods.

If you measure the flow rate with the injector held open you can
estimate the effect of pulse timing.

Filters restrict fluid flow with less risk of clogging than a single
orifice.

-jsw


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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way
to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or
someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can
be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is
thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway.
The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water
thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5
weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and
kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid
reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard
for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future.
Thanks,
Eric


I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers
out of my ass and do math on them:

60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour

3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second

(2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6
gallons/squirt.

(5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt.

(700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt.

This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh
-- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're
looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is
a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them?

Greetings Tim,
I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your
nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of the
first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then
converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar
calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks
for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is squirted.
..02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower the
delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can
modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector. Or
I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from
whatever nozzle. Cool.
Cheers,
Eric


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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:48:22 -0800, etpm wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric


I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers
out of my ass and do math on them:

60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour

3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second

(2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6
gallons/squirt.

(5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt.

(700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt.

This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh
-- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're
looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is
a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them?

Greetings Tim,
I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your nose
would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of the first
numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then converted
those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar calculations to
yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks for making me look
too lazy to figure out how much fuel is squirted. .02 cc might be just
about what I need. If too much I could lower the delivery pressure. The
spray pattern may not be perfect but I can modify that if need be with a
nozzle downstream from the injector. Or I can just use the injector as a
timed metering valve upstream from whatever nozzle. Cool.
Cheers,
Eric


If you need less than that you can probably go down from there -- these
motors do have to idle, after all.

Actually driving the injector electronically may be a challenge. I don't
know what they use in practice, but a TIP-32 from Radio Shack probably
won't be sufficient, although a 555 circuit to time it might be.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a
good way
to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or
someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can
be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is
thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work
anyway.
The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to
water
thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less
than 5
weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and
kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid
reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking
yard
for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future.
Thanks,
Eric


I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull
numbers
out of my ass and do math on them:

60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour

3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second

(2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6
gallons/squirt.

(5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6
ounce/squirt.

(700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt.

This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will
be -- uh
-- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if
you're
looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel
injection is
a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them?

Greetings Tim,
I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your
nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of
the
first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then
converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar
calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks
for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is
squirted.
.02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower
the
delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can
modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector.
Or
I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from
whatever nozzle. Cool.
Cheers,
Eric


With water solutions a chemists' rule of thumb is 20 drops per cc.
-jsw


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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On 1/9/2017 5:42 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a
good way
to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or
someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can
be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is
thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work
anyway.
The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to
water
thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less
than 5
weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and
kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid
reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking
yard
for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future.
Thanks,
Eric

I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull
numbers
out of my ass and do math on them:

60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour

3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second

(2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6
gallons/squirt.

(5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6
ounce/squirt.

(700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt.

This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will
be -- uh
-- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if
you're
looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel
injection is
a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them?

Greetings Tim,
I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your
nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of
the
first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then
converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar
calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks
for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is
squirted.
.02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower
the
delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can
modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector.
Or
I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from
whatever nozzle. Cool.
Cheers,
Eric


With water solutions a chemists' rule of thumb is 20 drops per cc.
-jsw


Isn't this kind of injector a valve that requires high pressure feed?
What about using the guts of an airless paint sprayer?
You can adjust pulse rate and the throw/volume per pulse.
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Default Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

wrote in message ...

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way
to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or
someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can
be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is
thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway.
The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water
thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5
weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and
kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid
reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard
for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future.
Thanks,
Eric


I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers
out of my ass and do math on them:

60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour

3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second

(2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6
gallons/squirt.

(5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt.

(700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt.

This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh
-- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're
looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is
a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them?

Greetings Tim,
I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your
nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of the
first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then
converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar
calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks
for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is squirted.
..02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower the
delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can
modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector. Or
I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from
whatever nozzle. Cool.
Cheers,
Eric
================================================== ==============

There are injectors that deliver a hollow cone, a single stream centered on
axis (made by Lucas), three streams in a cone shape, a single stream angled
to the axis, and I'm sure others. Excluding throttle body injectors which I
know little about, they all seem to have a minimum pulse width of about 1
msec and are roughly linear from there up to about 85-90% on duty cycle.
Above that they get erratic but if you just turn them on you should get the
rated flow rate. The hollow cone spray patterns usually use a single pintle
with a conical shape, while the stream injectors use a disc. The disc can
open quicker but the solid stream doesn't evaporate as well so I don't think
they are very popular any more. Way back I ran Lucas 5208008 injectors in
my car, single stream disc, rated at 40 lb/hr at the time although Stan
Weiss's great table has them as 37 lb/hr or 392 cc/min at 43.5 psi (3 bar),
see: http://www.users.interport.net/s/r/s...eifc.htm#LUCAS. Just
for grins, 392 cc/min * 1 min/60 sec * 1 sec/1000 msec * 1 msec = .0065 cc
in one 1 msec squirt, in the same ballpark as Tim's estimate.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames


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Default Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 18:47:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
news
Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel
is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector
would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric


The minimum that the idling engine needs may not be the lowest the
injector can deliver. You can lower the pressure and experiment with
pulse widths too short to fully open the valve.
http://www.automotivetestsolutions.c...waveforms.html

The article mentions how the clamping voltage affects turn-off time.
There's a similar trick to decrease turn-on time, increase the driving
voltage and add a series resistor that keeps the steady-state current
through the coil the same. The higher voltage forces a more rapid
current rise through the coil at the start when inductance limits the
rate of change. I made a small relay close or open in half a
millisecond using these methods.


There are saturating and non-saturatinf injectors - saturating
injectors with peak and hold drivers give the best controp

If you measure the flow rate with the injector held open you can
estimate the effect of pulse timing.

Filters restrict fluid flow with less risk of clogging than a single
orifice.

-jsw




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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 18:01:04 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800,
wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric

The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher
pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening.

An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held
wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle.

Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about
26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers.

A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide
adjustment range.

Thanks for the reply Clare. Your post and Tim's post have made it
pretty clear that a fuel injector is a viable candidate for delivering
accurately metered MQL fluids.
Eric
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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 18:00:18 -0800, mike wrote:

On 1/9/2017 5:42 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a
good way
to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or
someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can
be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is
thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work
anyway.
The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to
water
thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less
than 5
weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and
kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid
reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking
yard
for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future.
Thanks,
Eric

I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull
numbers
out of my ass and do math on them:

60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour

3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second

(2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6
gallons/squirt.

(5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6
ounce/squirt.

(700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt.

This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will
be -- uh
-- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if
you're
looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel
injection is
a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them?
Greetings Tim,
I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your
nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of
the
first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then
converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar
calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks
for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is
squirted.
.02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower
the
delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can
modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector.
Or
I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from
whatever nozzle. Cool.
Cheers,
Eric


With water solutions a chemists' rule of thumb is 20 drops per cc.
-jsw


Isn't this kind of injector a valve that requires high pressure feed?
What about using the guts of an airless paint sprayer?
You can adjust pulse rate and the throw/volume per pulse.

An airless paint sprayer would deliver way too much but thanks anyway
for the suggestion. Gasoline fuel injectors are often supplied with
fuel pressures less than the typical 90 PSI air that I use in my shop.
A reservoir with the MQL could be easily pressurized by shop air. The
air and lube can be kept apart by using a piston to apply pressure to
the lube. Tim's example of .02 cc might even be at the high end of the
quantity of MQL needed. My son told me he has some injectors that I
can use to experiment with. Having a constant pressure head means that
lube dispensing will be instant once the injector is triggered.
Eric
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Default Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:56:11 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 18:47:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
news
Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel
is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector
would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric


The minimum that the idling engine needs may not be the lowest the
injector can deliver. You can lower the pressure and experiment with
pulse widths too short to fully open the valve.
http://www.automotivetestsolutions.c...waveforms.html

The article mentions how the clamping voltage affects turn-off time.
There's a similar trick to decrease turn-on time, increase the driving
voltage and add a series resistor that keeps the steady-state current
through the coil the same. The higher voltage forces a more rapid
current rise through the coil at the start when inductance limits the
rate of change. I made a small relay close or open in half a
millisecond using these methods.


There are saturating and non-saturatinf injectors - saturating
injectors with peak and hold drivers give the best controp

If you measure the flow rate with the injector held open you can
estimate the effect of pulse timing.

Filters restrict fluid flow with less risk of clogging than a single
orifice.

-jsw

Greetings Clare,
I guess what I'll be doing first is to see if the injectors for a
Toyota Camry 4 cylinder will work. I'm not sure yet how I will measure
the quantity of lube delivered. I think that weighing a small
reservoir before and after might work. Maybe inject the lube into a
ballon and weigh it. I do have a scale that would work.
Eric
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On 09/01/17 23:01, wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800,
wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric

The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher
pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening.

An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held
wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle.

Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about
26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers.

A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide
adjustment range.

A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the
LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice
for doing actual injector control.


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On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:57:22 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 09/01/17 23:01, wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800,
wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric

The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher
pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening.

An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held
wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle.

Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about
26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers.

A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide
adjustment range.

A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the
LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice
for doing actual injector control.

Thanks David! I'll look at it.
Eric
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:23:42 +0100, Robert Roland
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, wrote:

Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools


Is there any reason you can't use a peristaltic pump?

Those are used to feed intravenous medicine to patients, so they can
be both accurate and reliable.

The way the lube is delivered won't work well with peristaltic pumps.
Eric
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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:57:22 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 09/01/17 23:01, wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800,
wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric

The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher
pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening.

An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held
wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle.

Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about
26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers.

A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide
adjustment range.

A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the
LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice
for doing actual injector control.

That's the peak and hold I was talking about.
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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:30:25 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:57:22 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 09/01/17 23:01,
wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800,
wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric
The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher
pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening.

An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held
wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle.

Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about
26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers.

A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide
adjustment range.

A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the
LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice
for doing actual injector control.

That's the peak and hold I was talking about.

After further searching I found a pretty simple circuit based on a
555. So now I have two viable options for driving an injector. The
next step is to find out what kind of injector I have to work with.
It's from a 1982 Honda Accord. Measuring the resistance should tell me
whether it is a peak and hold type or not.
Eric


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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

wrote in message
news
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:30:25 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:57:22 +0000, David Billington

wrote:

On 09/01/17 23:01,
wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800,
wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a
good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I
figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of
fuel is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel
injector.
Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector
would
work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or
pretty
close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to
or
slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5
weight.
Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly
pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a
trip
to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my
future.
Thanks,
Eric
The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure.
Higher
pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of
opening.

An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if
held
wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty
cycle.

Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about
26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers.

A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty
wide
adjustment range.
A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the
LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good
choice
for doing actual injector control.

That's the peak and hold I was talking about.

After further searching I found a pretty simple circuit based on a
555. So now I have two viable options for driving an injector. The
next step is to find out what kind of injector I have to work with.
It's from a 1982 Honda Accord. Measuring the resistance should tell
me
whether it is a peak and hold type or not.
Eric


I don't have that year of Accord manual but I do have a 4-inch-thick
Ford manual for the engine controls on all 1991 models. The page that
describes injectors warns:

"Do not apply battery voltage directly to the injector electrical
connector terminals. The solenoid may be damaged internally in a
matter of seconds."

The regulator is after the injector and returns surplus fuel to the
tank. The fuel delivery pressure ranges from 30 to 60 PSI. A
restriction in the injector body handles most of the metering to make
the nozzle less affected by deposit buildup.

The manual mentions but doesn't illustrate a flowmeter test.
Apparently you run the injector for a fixed time into an upright clear
tube and measure the height of a float ball in it. A company I worked
for made a test stand for Bosch Diesel injectors which worked that
way.

-jsw


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Default PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, wrote:

Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good
way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure
you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is
that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector.


In another life I designed and build electronic fuel injection
computers and installed them in a wide variety hotrods. I also built
a fuel injector flow bench in which I could measure the flow and take
high speed movies of the injector opening and closing. Unfortunately
I lost most of my research in a fire. I can recall a few details from
memory. This is from the mid-80s to early 90s.

There are two basic types of port injectors, the pintle valve and the
disc valve. I understand that some small engines are now using piezo
valves but that was after my time.

In the pintle valve, the solenoid lifts a conventional valve stem off
a conical seat. The stem typically (but not always) extends outside
the injector to help shape the spray. The spray pattern is atomized
in a similar way a garden hose nozzle breaks up the stream.

This type of injector was used on Ford, Chrysler and most jap cars and
was aimed at wetting the back side of the intake valve before the
valve starts opening.

The disc valve uses the electromagnet to lift a disc off an opening to
the outside world. The stream is sharp and solid. Only GM used that
type of injector. It was aimed to shoot into the intake as the intake
valve starts opening. The advantage is that the injector is fast. The
disadvantages are that there is no flow modulation possible and the
flow capacity has to be large for a given engine relative to the
pintle.

Both injectors take about a millisecond to open and another to close.
with the pintle injector, flow starts as soon as the pintle lifts off
its seat. So one can modulate the flow below 1 ms by using a
peak-hold driving circuitry and by turning off the current before the
injector is fully open. Peak-hold hits the injector with a few
hundred microseconds of high voltage (45 volts in my design) and then
is sustained with a constant current with a compliance voltage of 10
volts.

My flow bench was equipped with an accelerometer so I could see the
pintle start moving and see it hit the stops. This modulation
technique allowed me to achieve a larger turn-down ratio than possible
with a simple constant voltage drive.

The SAE standard for measuring the performance of fuel injectors
specifies hexane as the test fluid. Way too volatile for me so I
settled on mineral spirits (basically naphtha.)

Most engines used a differential pressure across the injector of about
45 lbs. The pressure regulator is referenced back to the intake
pressure so that the differential is always the same.

I found that increasing the pressure slows opening but has little
effect on closing. I tested up to 100 psi differential pressure and
found that this slowing followed a nice clean curve.

If I was assigned your task, I'd first settle on a lube. I dilute it
to about the viscosity of ATF or a bit thinner. I'd use a peak/hold
driver and try to avoid having to generate very brief pulses.

In general, the flow rate scales with the cylinder size so you can
pick an injector accordingly. Much better to use a smaller injector
with a longer open period than a large injector and brief pulses.

The only other, one I can't answer, is fluid compatibility. All the
internal parts are wetted by the fluid. Most should be water
resistant because gasoline is frequently wet but that's something
you'd have to test.

I once built a water injection system for a turbocharged engine that
used the large injector from a Mazda RX6 rotary. Each rotor has a
small injector for cruising and idle and a big honking one for power
operation. About 80 pounds/hr on mineral spirits if I recall.

The fluid was a 50:50 mix of methanol and water. Methanol is
corrosive to all light metals but this injector survived just fine. I
think that internally it's all plastic and stainless steel.

End of brain dump.

Feel free to ask questions. They may jog loose some more memories.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

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On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:53:31 -0800, wrote:


A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the
LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice
for doing actual injector control.

Thanks David! I'll look at it.


You don't need a fancy driver for this application. 40 pounds/hr
pintles were used by the zillions in the 70s through 90 in jap cars. 4
ohm coil as I recall.

So the driver is thus. A 12 or 15 volt power supply with a
back-biased diode across it to protect from flyback, a 4 ohm 10 watt
resistor, the injector and a power FET with a 600 volt rating,
suitable current rating and logic level (5 volt) gate drive.

Here's a good transistor.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...%2fRBY f2Y%3d

Note that I do NOT include a flyback suppression diode. Doing so will
tremendously slow the closing time. I instead rely on the high
voltage transistor and the ballast resistor.

I'm not a great 555 fan for industrial environments. crud buildup
will change their timing. I'd probably use one of the mini-Arduino
boards. Cheap and precise and I could write the snippet of code
faster than I could futz around with 555 resistor values.

And if you need the injector firing synced to an external event, say,
spray the work right before a flycutter gets there, an optical or
magnetic trigger is trivial to set up.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

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Default Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?

"Neon John" wrote in message
...
If you can come up with an old computer with a real honest-to-God
parallel port, I can give you some software that will make the job
trivial. It uses a parallel port pin to drive the circuit I
described
earlier. It allows you to set the pulse width and the total number
of
pulses. If your fluid is fairly non-volatile, you could fire the
injector into a tall glass and weigh. If it is volatile then you'll
need some sort of seal over the glass.

Sorry, never got around to porting the software to emulated ports.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address


What programming language and operating system did you use?

I'm curious because an engineer at Unitrode asked me to create an I2C
communication interface that would run on any customer's lab computer
with a parallel port, without needing a plug-in card. The device
address used up the data bits so I had to run it in DOS to have free
access to the control bits, which Windows polls. We used QBasic to get
the INP and OUT commands that access the hardware's I/O address space.

Commands to the parallel port took about 1 uS to complete on any
computer I tried, although a compiled integer FOR loop ran at half CPU
clock speed, up to 750 MHz on the fastest PC in the lab.

-jsw


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