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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
Greetings Clare,
I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote:
Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers out of my ass and do math on them: 60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour 3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second (2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6 gallons/squirt. (5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt. (700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt. This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh -- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com I'm looking for work -- see my website! |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
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#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
wrote in message
news Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric The minimum that the idling engine needs may not be the lowest the injector can deliver. You can lower the pressure and experiment with pulse widths too short to fully open the valve. http://www.automotivetestsolutions.c...waveforms.html The article mentions how the clamping voltage affects turn-off time. There's a similar trick to decrease turn-on time, increase the driving voltage and add a series resistor that keeps the steady-state current through the coil the same. The higher voltage forces a more rapid current rise through the coil at the start when inductance limits the rate of change. I made a small relay close or open in half a millisecond using these methods. If you measure the flow rate with the injector held open you can estimate the effect of pulse timing. Filters restrict fluid flow with less risk of clogging than a single orifice. -jsw |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers out of my ass and do math on them: 60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour 3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second (2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6 gallons/squirt. (5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt. (700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt. This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh -- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them? Greetings Tim, I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of the first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is squirted. ..02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower the delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector. Or I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from whatever nozzle. Cool. Cheers, Eric |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:48:22 -0800, etpm wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers out of my ass and do math on them: 60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour 3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second (2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6 gallons/squirt. (5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt. (700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt. This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh -- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them? Greetings Tim, I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of the first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is squirted. .02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower the delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector. Or I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from whatever nozzle. Cool. Cheers, Eric If you need less than that you can probably go down from there -- these motors do have to idle, after all. Actually driving the injector electronically may be a challenge. I don't know what they use in practice, but a TIP-32 from Radio Shack probably won't be sufficient, although a 555 circuit to time it might be. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com I'm looking for work -- see my website! |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
wrote in message
... On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers out of my ass and do math on them: 60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour 3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second (2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6 gallons/squirt. (5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt. (700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt. This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh -- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them? Greetings Tim, I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of the first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is squirted. .02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower the delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector. Or I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from whatever nozzle. Cool. Cheers, Eric With water solutions a chemists' rule of thumb is 20 drops per cc. -jsw |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On 1/9/2017 5:42 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message ... On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers out of my ass and do math on them: 60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour 3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second (2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6 gallons/squirt. (5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt. (700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt. This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh -- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them? Greetings Tim, I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of the first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is squirted. .02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower the delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector. Or I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from whatever nozzle. Cool. Cheers, Eric With water solutions a chemists' rule of thumb is 20 drops per cc. -jsw Isn't this kind of injector a valve that requires high pressure feed? What about using the guts of an airless paint sprayer? You can adjust pulse rate and the throw/volume per pulse. |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
wrote in message ...
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers out of my ass and do math on them: 60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour 3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second (2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6 gallons/squirt. (5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt. (700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt. This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh -- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them? Greetings Tim, I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of the first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is squirted. ..02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower the delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector. Or I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from whatever nozzle. Cool. Cheers, Eric ================================================== ============== There are injectors that deliver a hollow cone, a single stream centered on axis (made by Lucas), three streams in a cone shape, a single stream angled to the axis, and I'm sure others. Excluding throttle body injectors which I know little about, they all seem to have a minimum pulse width of about 1 msec and are roughly linear from there up to about 85-90% on duty cycle. Above that they get erratic but if you just turn them on you should get the rated flow rate. The hollow cone spray patterns usually use a single pintle with a conical shape, while the stream injectors use a disc. The disc can open quicker but the solid stream doesn't evaporate as well so I don't think they are very popular any more. Way back I ran Lucas 5208008 injectors in my car, single stream disc, rated at 40 lb/hr at the time although Stan Weiss's great table has them as 37 lb/hr or 392 cc/min at 43.5 psi (3 bar), see: http://www.users.interport.net/s/r/s...eifc.htm#LUCAS. Just for grins, 392 cc/min * 1 min/60 sec * 1 sec/1000 msec * 1 msec = .0065 cc in one 1 msec squirt, in the same ballpark as Tim's estimate. ----- Regards, Carl Ijames |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 18:47:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: wrote in message news Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric The minimum that the idling engine needs may not be the lowest the injector can deliver. You can lower the pressure and experiment with pulse widths too short to fully open the valve. http://www.automotivetestsolutions.c...waveforms.html The article mentions how the clamping voltage affects turn-off time. There's a similar trick to decrease turn-on time, increase the driving voltage and add a series resistor that keeps the steady-state current through the coil the same. The higher voltage forces a more rapid current rise through the coil at the start when inductance limits the rate of change. I made a small relay close or open in half a millisecond using these methods. There are saturating and non-saturatinf injectors - saturating injectors with peak and hold drivers give the best controp If you measure the flow rate with the injector held open you can estimate the effect of pulse timing. Filters restrict fluid flow with less risk of clogging than a single orifice. -jsw |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 18:00:18 -0800, mike wrote:
On 1/9/2017 5:42 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote: wrote in message ... On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:51:17 -0600, Tim Wescott wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, etpm wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric I'm not Claire, or necessarily even competent. But I can pull numbers out of my ass and do math on them: 60MPH / 30MPG = 2 gallons/hour 3000 RPM = 50 rev/sec. Assume a 4-cylinder, so 100 squirts/second (2 gal/hr) * (1hr / (3600sec)) / (100 squirt/second) = 5.6 x 10^-6 gallons/squirt. (5.6 x 10^-6 gal/squirt) * (128 ounce/gal) = 700 x 10^-6 ounce/squirt. (700 x 10^-6 oz/squirt) * (30 cc/oz) = 0.02 cc/squirt. This help? Higher viscosity means that the fluid delivery will be -- uh -- less. Worse, higher viscosity may mean that you're screwed if you're looking for a particular spray pattern. If electronic fuel injection is a thing in diesels, maybe use an injector from one of them? Greetings Tim, I wish you would pull those numbers from somewhere else. Even your nose would be better. Nevertheless I held my nose and used some of the first numbers you pulled out of your ass: gallons per hour. I then converted those numbers to cubic centimeters. Then did similar calculations to yours and arrived at the same number you did. Thanks for making me look too lazy to figure out how much fuel is squirted. .02 cc might be just about what I need. If too much I could lower the delivery pressure. The spray pattern may not be perfect but I can modify that if need be with a nozzle downstream from the injector. Or I can just use the injector as a timed metering valve upstream from whatever nozzle. Cool. Cheers, Eric With water solutions a chemists' rule of thumb is 20 drops per cc. -jsw Isn't this kind of injector a valve that requires high pressure feed? What about using the guts of an airless paint sprayer? You can adjust pulse rate and the throw/volume per pulse. An airless paint sprayer would deliver way too much but thanks anyway for the suggestion. Gasoline fuel injectors are often supplied with fuel pressures less than the typical 90 PSI air that I use in my shop. A reservoir with the MQL could be easily pressurized by shop air. The air and lube can be kept apart by using a piston to apply pressure to the lube. Tim's example of .02 cc might even be at the high end of the quantity of MQL needed. My son told me he has some injectors that I can use to experiment with. Having a constant pressure head means that lube dispensing will be instant once the injector is triggered. Eric |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:56:11 -0500, wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 18:47:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: wrote in message news Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric The minimum that the idling engine needs may not be the lowest the injector can deliver. You can lower the pressure and experiment with pulse widths too short to fully open the valve. http://www.automotivetestsolutions.c...waveforms.html The article mentions how the clamping voltage affects turn-off time. There's a similar trick to decrease turn-on time, increase the driving voltage and add a series resistor that keeps the steady-state current through the coil the same. The higher voltage forces a more rapid current rise through the coil at the start when inductance limits the rate of change. I made a small relay close or open in half a millisecond using these methods. There are saturating and non-saturatinf injectors - saturating injectors with peak and hold drivers give the best controp If you measure the flow rate with the injector held open you can estimate the effect of pulse timing. Filters restrict fluid flow with less risk of clogging than a single orifice. -jsw Greetings Clare, I guess what I'll be doing first is to see if the injectors for a Toyota Camry 4 cylinder will work. I'm not sure yet how I will measure the quantity of lube delivered. I think that weighing a small reservoir before and after might work. Maybe inject the lube into a ballon and weigh it. I do have a scale that would work. Eric |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
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#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On 09/01/17 23:01, wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening. An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle. Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about 26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers. A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide adjustment range. A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice for doing actual injector control. |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:57:22 +0000, David Billington
wrote: On 09/01/17 23:01, wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening. An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle. Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about 26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers. A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide adjustment range. A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice for doing actual injector control. Thanks David! I'll look at it. Eric |
#17
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:23:42 +0100, Robert Roland
wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, wrote: Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools Is there any reason you can't use a peristaltic pump? Those are used to feed intravenous medicine to patients, so they can be both accurate and reliable. The way the lube is delivered won't work well with peristaltic pumps. Eric |
#18
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:57:22 +0000, David Billington
wrote: On 09/01/17 23:01, wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening. An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle. Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about 26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers. A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide adjustment range. A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice for doing actual injector control. That's the peak and hold I was talking about. |
#19
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Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On 2017-01-10, wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:56:11 -0500, wrote: [ ... ] There are saturating and non-saturatinf injectors - saturating injectors with peak and hold drivers give the best controp If you measure the flow rate with the injector held open you can estimate the effect of pulse timing. [ ... ] Greetings Clare, I guess what I'll be doing first is to see if the injectors for a Toyota Camry 4 cylinder will work. I'm not sure yet how I will measure the quantity of lube delivered. I think that weighing a small reservoir before and after might work. Maybe inject the lube into a ballon and weigh it. I do have a scale that would work. Eric If your scale is sensitive enough, take a small diameter disc of filter paper, weigh it first, have the injector spit a number past it, then one caught by the paper, and weigh it again. (At least I have one which is sensitive enough for that - came from a hamfest.) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#20
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:30:25 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:57:22 +0000, David Billington wrote: On 09/01/17 23:01, wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening. An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle. Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about 26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers. A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide adjustment range. A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice for doing actual injector control. That's the peak and hold I was talking about. After further searching I found a pretty simple circuit based on a 555. So now I have two viable options for driving an injector. The next step is to find out what kind of injector I have to work with. It's from a 1982 Honda Accord. Measuring the resistance should tell me whether it is a peak and hold type or not. Eric |
#21
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Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On 11 Jan 2017 00:19:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2017-01-10, wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:56:11 -0500, wrote: [ ... ] There are saturating and non-saturatinf injectors - saturating injectors with peak and hold drivers give the best controp If you measure the flow rate with the injector held open you can estimate the effect of pulse timing. [ ... ] Greetings Clare, I guess what I'll be doing first is to see if the injectors for a Toyota Camry 4 cylinder will work. I'm not sure yet how I will measure the quantity of lube delivered. I think that weighing a small reservoir before and after might work. Maybe inject the lube into a ballon and weigh it. I do have a scale that would work. Eric If your scale is sensitive enough, take a small diameter disc of filter paper, weigh it first, have the injector spit a number past it, then one caught by the paper, and weigh it again. (At least I have one which is sensitive enough for that - came from a hamfest.) Enjoy, DoN. Mine is sensitive enough for that. If I can be sure of capturing all the fluid on a piece of paper that would work well. Easier than using a ballon I think. Eric |
#22
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
wrote in message
news On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:30:25 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:57:22 +0000, David Billington wrote: On 09/01/17 23:01, wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, wrote: Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. Gasoline is thinner than the MQL fluids but maybe the injector would work anyway. The thinnest MQL fluids I use are water thin or pretty close to water thin. The thickest has a viscosity camparable to or slightly less than 5 weight motor oil. Actually less than 5 weight. Maybe 5 weight and kerosene mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I can certainly pressurize a liquid reservoir to the required pressure. Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard for a ruel pump and some injectors is in my future. Thanks, Eric The injectors are pulsed and the fluid is under pressure. Higher pressure makes a viner mist and flows more per milisecond of opening. An "average" injector can flow about 26 lbs of fuel per hour if held wide open, so about 2.6 at 10% duty cycle, and 0.26 at 1% duty cycle. Tghis is at specified pressure - which can be anywhere from about 26PSI to close to 100. Varying the pressure changes the numbers. A 555 timer set up to pulse the injector would give you a pretty wide adjustment range. A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice for doing actual injector control. That's the peak and hold I was talking about. After further searching I found a pretty simple circuit based on a 555. So now I have two viable options for driving an injector. The next step is to find out what kind of injector I have to work with. It's from a 1982 Honda Accord. Measuring the resistance should tell me whether it is a peak and hold type or not. Eric I don't have that year of Accord manual but I do have a 4-inch-thick Ford manual for the engine controls on all 1991 models. The page that describes injectors warns: "Do not apply battery voltage directly to the injector electrical connector terminals. The solenoid may be damaged internally in a matter of seconds." The regulator is after the injector and returns surplus fuel to the tank. The fuel delivery pressure ranges from 30 to 60 PSI. A restriction in the injector body handles most of the metering to make the nozzle less affected by deposit buildup. The manual mentions but doesn't illustrate a flowmeter test. Apparently you run the injector for a fixed time into an upright clear tube and measure the height of a float ball in it. A company I worked for made a test stand for Bosch Diesel injectors which worked that way. -jsw |
#23
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:27:25 -0800, wrote:
Greetings Clare, I just thought a few minutes ago how a fuel injector might be a good way to apply Minimum Quantity Lubrication to cutting tools. I figure you or someone else here must know what the minimum amount of fuel is that can be delivered from a typical gasoline engine fuel injector. In another life I designed and build electronic fuel injection computers and installed them in a wide variety hotrods. I also built a fuel injector flow bench in which I could measure the flow and take high speed movies of the injector opening and closing. Unfortunately I lost most of my research in a fire. I can recall a few details from memory. This is from the mid-80s to early 90s. There are two basic types of port injectors, the pintle valve and the disc valve. I understand that some small engines are now using piezo valves but that was after my time. In the pintle valve, the solenoid lifts a conventional valve stem off a conical seat. The stem typically (but not always) extends outside the injector to help shape the spray. The spray pattern is atomized in a similar way a garden hose nozzle breaks up the stream. This type of injector was used on Ford, Chrysler and most jap cars and was aimed at wetting the back side of the intake valve before the valve starts opening. The disc valve uses the electromagnet to lift a disc off an opening to the outside world. The stream is sharp and solid. Only GM used that type of injector. It was aimed to shoot into the intake as the intake valve starts opening. The advantage is that the injector is fast. The disadvantages are that there is no flow modulation possible and the flow capacity has to be large for a given engine relative to the pintle. Both injectors take about a millisecond to open and another to close. with the pintle injector, flow starts as soon as the pintle lifts off its seat. So one can modulate the flow below 1 ms by using a peak-hold driving circuitry and by turning off the current before the injector is fully open. Peak-hold hits the injector with a few hundred microseconds of high voltage (45 volts in my design) and then is sustained with a constant current with a compliance voltage of 10 volts. My flow bench was equipped with an accelerometer so I could see the pintle start moving and see it hit the stops. This modulation technique allowed me to achieve a larger turn-down ratio than possible with a simple constant voltage drive. The SAE standard for measuring the performance of fuel injectors specifies hexane as the test fluid. Way too volatile for me so I settled on mineral spirits (basically naphtha.) Most engines used a differential pressure across the injector of about 45 lbs. The pressure regulator is referenced back to the intake pressure so that the differential is always the same. I found that increasing the pressure slows opening but has little effect on closing. I tested up to 100 psi differential pressure and found that this slowing followed a nice clean curve. If I was assigned your task, I'd first settle on a lube. I dilute it to about the viscosity of ATF or a bit thinner. I'd use a peak/hold driver and try to avoid having to generate very brief pulses. In general, the flow rate scales with the cylinder size so you can pick an injector accordingly. Much better to use a smaller injector with a longer open period than a large injector and brief pulses. The only other, one I can't answer, is fluid compatibility. All the internal parts are wetted by the fluid. Most should be water resistant because gasoline is frequently wet but that's something you'd have to test. I once built a water injection system for a turbocharged engine that used the large injector from a Mazda RX6 rotary. Each rotor has a small injector for cruising and idle and a big honking one for power operation. About 80 pounds/hr on mineral spirits if I recall. The fluid was a 50:50 mix of methanol and water. Methanol is corrosive to all light metals but this injector survived just fine. I think that internally it's all plastic and stainless steel. End of brain dump. Feel free to ask questions. They may jog loose some more memories. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#24
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PING: Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:53:31 -0800, wrote:
A 555 might be a good choice for providing the timing pulse but the LM1949 is a purpose made injector drive chip so would be a good choice for doing actual injector control. Thanks David! I'll look at it. You don't need a fancy driver for this application. 40 pounds/hr pintles were used by the zillions in the 70s through 90 in jap cars. 4 ohm coil as I recall. So the driver is thus. A 12 or 15 volt power supply with a back-biased diode across it to protect from flyback, a 4 ohm 10 watt resistor, the injector and a power FET with a 600 volt rating, suitable current rating and logic level (5 volt) gate drive. Here's a good transistor. http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...%2fRBY f2Y%3d Note that I do NOT include a flyback suppression diode. Doing so will tremendously slow the closing time. I instead rely on the high voltage transistor and the ballast resistor. I'm not a great 555 fan for industrial environments. crud buildup will change their timing. I'd probably use one of the mini-Arduino boards. Cheap and precise and I could write the snippet of code faster than I could futz around with 555 resistor values. And if you need the injector firing synced to an external event, say, spray the work right before a flycutter gets there, an optical or magnetic trigger is trivial to set up. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#25
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Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 08:58:36 -0800, wrote:
I guess what I'll be doing first is to see if the injectors for a Toyota Camry 4 cylinder will work. I'm not sure yet how I will measure the quantity of lube delivered. I think that weighing a small reservoir before and after might work. Maybe inject the lube into a ballon and weigh it. I do have a scale that would work. Eric If you can come up with an old computer with a real honest-to-God parallel port, I can give you some software that will make the job trivial. It uses a parallel port pin to drive the circuit I described earlier. It allows you to set the pulse width and the total number of pulses. If your fluid is fairly non-volatile, you could fire the injector into a tall glass and weigh. If it is volatile then you'll need some sort of seal over the glass. Sorry, never got around to porting the software to emulated ports. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#26
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Clare. Fuel amount per injector firing?
"Neon John" wrote in message
... If you can come up with an old computer with a real honest-to-God parallel port, I can give you some software that will make the job trivial. It uses a parallel port pin to drive the circuit I described earlier. It allows you to set the pulse width and the total number of pulses. If your fluid is fairly non-volatile, you could fire the injector into a tall glass and weigh. If it is volatile then you'll need some sort of seal over the glass. Sorry, never got around to porting the software to emulated ports. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address What programming language and operating system did you use? I'm curious because an engineer at Unitrode asked me to create an I2C communication interface that would run on any customer's lab computer with a parallel port, without needing a plug-in card. The device address used up the data bits so I had to run it in DOS to have free access to the control bits, which Windows polls. We used QBasic to get the INP and OUT commands that access the hardware's I/O address space. Commands to the parallel port took about 1 uS to complete on any computer I tried, although a compiled integer FOR loop ran at half CPU clock speed, up to 750 MHz on the fastest PC in the lab. -jsw |
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