I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of aluminum bar
prior to finish machining the project. Machinists clamps would work except
that the screws either hiot the table or stick up to far and the mill head
would run into them.

Currently I do this.

Part 1
1. Mill the slot.
2. Fit the brass strip.
3. Place a doubled over piece of printer paper on top of the brass strip.
4. Lay a piece of aluminum bar over the paper.
5. Clamp the overlayed bar to the larger aluminum bar at the edges with
mini c-clamps and machinist clamps.

Part 2
6. Mill screw holes and pockets for the heads that partially overlap the
strip.
7. Tap the holes and insert button head screws.
8. Tighten down screws with some hand cut shim stock (about .004) under the
edge over the brass.
9. Cut mold.
10. Remove the shim stock from under the screw heads.

I'ld like to eliminate steps 3, 4, & 5 as unneccessary by using some long
nose machinists clamps. The top jaw would be machined with a small half
cylinder on the tip so it can clamp directly on the brass strip. Because
they will be long nose (to get the screws away from the work piece I think
they will need to be modestly strong. I have a few pieces of 1018 laying
around, but its really not hardenable. I can case harden the faces of the
jaws with something like Cherry Red though.

I was wondering if the 1018 would be strong enough, or if I should look for
something stronger or that can be more easily fully hardened. I do have a
little O1 on hand as well, but I rather horde it for special projects.

This particular job is a one off custom job, but the task of inserting the
brass strip (slide gate) is fairly common and I am trying to think of ways
to make it a little faster and more efficient in the future.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
news
I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of aluminum
bar prior to finish machining the project. Machinists clamps would work
except that the screws either hiot the table or stick up to far and the
mill head would run into them.

Currently I do this.

Part 1
1. Mill the slot.
2. Fit the brass strip.
3. Place a doubled over piece of printer paper on top of the brass
strip.
4. Lay a piece of aluminum bar over the paper.
5. Clamp the overlayed bar to the larger aluminum bar at the edges with
mini c-clamps and machinist clamps.

Part 2
6. Mill screw holes and pockets for the heads that partially overlap the
strip.
7. Tap the holes and insert button head screws.
8. Tighten down screws with some hand cut shim stock (about .004) under
the edge over the brass.
9. Cut mold.
10. Remove the shim stock from under the screw heads.

I'ld like to eliminate steps 3, 4, & 5 as unneccessary by using some long
nose machinists clamps. The top jaw would be machined with a small half
cylinder on the tip so it can clamp directly on the brass strip. Because
they will be long nose (to get the screws away from the work piece I think
they will need to be modestly strong. I have a few pieces of 1018 laying
around, but its really not hardenable. I can case harden the faces of the
jaws with something like Cherry Red though.

I was wondering if the 1018 would be strong enough, or if I should look
for something stronger or that can be more easily fully hardened. I do
have a little O1 on hand as well, but I rather horde it for special
projects.

This particular job is a one off custom job, but the task of inserting the
brass strip (slide gate) is fairly common and I am trying to think of ways
to make it a little faster and more efficient in the future.

The way I am doing it now.
http://tacklemaker.info/index.php?ac...sa=view;pic=22

And with the screws installed prior to surfacing.
http://tacklemaker.info/index.php?ac...sa=view;pic=23

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
news
I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of
aluminum bar prior to finish machining the project. Machinists
clamps would work except that the screws either hiot the table or
stick up to far and the mill head would run into them.


Temporarily replace the screws with shorter ones?

You can make thumb screws from common pan heads by running a brass
knurled nut or several hex nuts up against the head.

The fancier knobs I make for the sheet metal screws on my chimney that
I remove to clean it are knurled 1/2" aluminum rod, counterbored for
the head and covered with red heatshrink so I can find them if dropped
in the snow.
--jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
news
I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of aluminum
bar prior to finish machining the project. Machinists clamps would work
except that the screws either hiot the table or stick up to far and the
mill head would run into them.


Temporarily replace the screws with shorter ones?

Actually that's one of the plans for the new clamps. Set them up using a
common size screw like 1/4-28 so I can easily change screws for the
appication. I have no issue with keeping a hex key handy for snugging them
up. I buy 1/8, 5/32, and 3/16 short arm hex keys by the box so I can
include them as needed with custom molds. At any given time there are a
half dozen of them on the assembly bench.

The machinist clamps I have might work (well one would, the other is not
long enough) for this particular mold, but they won't work for others that
need a longer reach or that might have multiple slide bars. One of the
things I wanted to do also was make the upper jaw with a half cylinder on
the bottom of the top jaw so force could be more easily localized directly
on the brass slide bar.

A basic clamp sketch.
http://tacklemaker.info/index.php?ac...sa=view;pic=24

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 11:16:10 AM UTC-8, Bob La Londe wrote:
I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of aluminum bar
prior to finish machining the project. Machinists clamps would work except
that the screws either [hit] the table or stick up to far and the mill head
would run into them.

This particular job is a one off custom job, but the task of inserting the
brass strip (slide gate) is fairly common and I am trying to think of ways
to make it a little faster and more efficient in the future.

At first glance, it would seem that a vise with soft jaws would be a better
way to combine the slot and clamping (for sure, it gets rid of the upward
protrusions). Before using loose bits and long clamps, could you just put
some threaded inserts into the slotted Al plate, and use holddown clamps?
A screw and a bit of U-section up close to the slot is easier on the
holddown arm than the longnose clamp proposed.

"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 11:16:10 AM UTC-8, Bob La Londe wrote:
I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of aluminum
bar
prior to finish machining the project. Machinists clamps would work
except
that the screws either [hit] the table or stick up to far and the mill
head
would run into them.

This particular job is a one off custom job, but the task of inserting
the
brass strip (slide gate) is fairly common and I am trying to think of
ways
to make it a little faster and more efficient in the future.

At first glance, it would seem that a vise with soft jaws would be a
better
way to combine the slot and clamping (for sure, it gets rid of the upward
protrusions). Before using loose bits and long clamps, could you just
put
some threaded inserts into the slotted Al plate, and use holddown clamps?
A screw and a bit of U-section up close to the slot is easier on the
holddown arm than the longnose clamp proposed.

Huh? Why or how would a soft jaw vise make any difference? Do you
propose crushing the work piece? That would be counter productive, because
then the brass bar would have to be driven out with a hammer, the slot
recut, and the brass bar recut. Doesn't make any sense to me. Or are you
proposing some form of clamp outside of the main work piece to hold the end
of the brass bar. This isn't a good idea either as it does not hold the
brass bar down into the slot where it needs to, and it could possibley cause
(or allow) it to bow up and get overcut creating a destroyed workpiece.
Also, if you didn't notice the main workpiece is in a high hold in the vise.
It needs to be in that high hold in order to do everything in "one" setup on
the machine

Not sure what protusion you are talking about. The handle for the slide bar
can't easily or effectively be added on later. It has to be there. The
curved corner edges of the brass bar need to stick out above the surface so
it can be machined flat with the rest of the surface. Big voids from the
curved edges would allow all the media to leak out of the mold cavity.

I really don't want to drive a screw into the surface of the mold for the
U-section. Neither in the front where it may create hard spots for detail
maching or in the back where I would have to machine it off or the customer
will complain about the aesthetics. Now I am sure I could put stuff under
the screw you propose and monkey around to prevent damage, but that's
exactly the sort of extra work and time wasted I am trying to avoid. What I
am doing now is working just fine already. I want to make clamps so I can
do this sort of setup faster.

This is a one off work piece, but I routinely do work pieces of this type.
Each one is different in the specifics. The brass slide bar may be at
varying distances from the end of the main work piece and sometimes there
are more than one of them. A long clamp will work because while the part is
machined to be able to move in the slot it is a very close fit. There is
friction. The long nose clamps have the advantage of working on multiple
different setups easily and quickly, and they will not damage the work
piece. It doesn't take a ton of force to hold it in place until the
retaining screws are machined in. The retaining screws are just 10/32 in
aluminum with a shim. They are also adequate to hold against all the rest
of the machining forces to complete the part. I am sure the long nose
clamps will generate as much holding force as that piece of half inch
aluminum square bar under c-clamps at each end.

I just wanted to know if 1018 would be strong enough for my clamp (which
will other wise work) or if I needed to go with a stronger or hardenable
alloy. Do you know?

All the rest was background. I included the background because certain
people in this group won't answer the question you ask without background.

So without further adieu... is 1018 strong enough to last for this
application or should I chose a stronger alloy?

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 4:10:35 PM UTC-8, Bob La Londe wrote:
"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 11:16:10 AM UTC-8, Bob La Londe wrote:
I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of aluminum
bar

At first glance, it would seem that a vise with soft jaws would be a
better
way to combine the slot and clamping (for sure, it gets rid of the upward
protrusions).

Huh? Why or how would a soft jaw vise make any difference? Do you
propose crushing the work piece?

If the work piece is the brass, I was proposing a soft-jaw vise that put half the
channel onto the fixed jaw, and half onto the moving jaw. It wouldn't cut the plate
at the same time (is the plate also a workpiece?).

The long-jaw clamps might work with 1018 or not, but they aren't a great idea
because the tightening screws, with such a mechanical disadvantage, have
to take extra tension (and compression); friction in the tightening screws
becomes a problem. I'm fond of buttress threads, which would help with that,
but I don't know of any off-the-shelf support for making them.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 12:15:56 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of aluminum bar
prior to finish machining the project. Machinists clamps would work except
that the screws either hiot the table or stick up to far and the mill head
would run into them.

Currently I do this.

Part 1
1. Mill the slot.
2. Fit the brass strip.
3. Place a doubled over piece of printer paper on top of the brass strip.
4. Lay a piece of aluminum bar over the paper.
5. Clamp the overlayed bar to the larger aluminum bar at the edges with
mini c-clamps and machinist clamps.

Part 2
6. Mill screw holes and pockets for the heads that partially overlap the
strip.
7. Tap the holes and insert button head screws.
8. Tighten down screws with some hand cut shim stock (about .004) under the
edge over the brass.
9. Cut mold.
10. Remove the shim stock from under the screw heads.

I'ld like to eliminate steps 3, 4, & 5 as unneccessary by using some long
nose machinists clamps. The top jaw would be machined with a small half
cylinder on the tip so it can clamp directly on the brass strip. Because
they will be long nose (to get the screws away from the work piece I think
they will need to be modestly strong. I have a few pieces of 1018 laying
around, but its really not hardenable. I can case harden the faces of the
jaws with something like Cherry Red though.

I was wondering if the 1018 would be strong enough, or if I should look for
something stronger or that can be more easily fully hardened. I do have a
little O1 on hand as well, but I rather horde it for special projects.

This particular job is a one off custom job, but the task of inserting the
brass strip (slide gate) is fairly common and I am trying to think of ways
to make it a little faster and more efficient in the future.


I would try using cyanoacrylate glue to glue the brass bar into place.
Then after milling heat to decompose the glue. Don't breathe the fumes
though. Cyanoacrylate glues are great for this type of work. I
sometimes glue parts to a faceplate in the lathe too. Your job looks,
from the pictures, like it would work well being glued.
Eric

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 13:27:08 -0700
"Bob La Londe" wrote:

snip
A basic clamp sketch.
http://tacklemaker.info/index.php?ac...sa=view;pic=24

If you haven't already looked you may wish to poke around StrongHand
Tools website. I was thinking especially of their Adjustable Reach &
Long Reach Multi-Purpose Pliers:

http://stronghandtools.com/stronghan.../longreach.php

If nothing else looking around may give you some more ideas for making
your own. They carry a lot of interesting and unique products...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 13:27:08 -0700
"Bob La Londe" wrote:

snip
A basic clamp sketch.
http://tacklemaker.info/index.php?ac...sa=view;pic=24

If you haven't already looked you may wish to poke around StrongHand
Tools website. I was thinking especially of their Adjustable Reach &
Long Reach Multi-Purpose Pliers:

http://stronghandtools.com/stronghan.../longreach.php

If nothing else looking around may give you some more ideas for making
your own. They carry a lot of interesting and unique products...

They do have some cool tools. Thanks for the link. I see one I want. The
three axis clamp for welding up machine bases would be really handy. If
their locking pliers are decent quality they may be a substitute for
Vise-Grip since IMO the VG quality isn't as good since they out sourced.

"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 4:10:35 PM UTC-8, Bob La Londe wrote:
"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 11:16:10 AM UTC-8, Bob La Londe wrote:
I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of
aluminum
bar

At first glance, it would seem that a vise with soft jaws would be a
better
way to combine the slot and clamping (for sure, it gets rid of the
upward
protrusions).

Huh? Why or how would a soft jaw vise make any difference? Do you
propose crushing the work piece?

If the work piece is the brass, I was proposing a soft-jaw vise that put
half the
channel onto the fixed jaw, and half onto the moving jaw. It wouldn't
cut the plate
at the same time (is the plate also a workpiece?).

Its all one work piece that must be machined together. Even two of the
three clamping screws are used as retaining screws once it is finished.


becomes a problem. I'm fond of buttress threads, which would help with
that,
but I don't know of any off-the-shelf support for making them.

I could make a turning tool and/or a thread milling tool to cut them, but
thats a bit of overkill.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 12:15:56 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

I've got to clamp a think brass strip into a slot on a piece of aluminum
bar
prior to finish machining the project. Machinists clamps would work
except
that the screws either hiot the table or stick up to far and the mill head
would run into them.

Currently I do this.

Part 1
1. Mill the slot.
2. Fit the brass strip.
3. Place a doubled over piece of printer paper on top of the brass
strip.
4. Lay a piece of aluminum bar over the paper.
5. Clamp the overlayed bar to the larger aluminum bar at the edges with
mini c-clamps and machinist clamps.

Part 2
6. Mill screw holes and pockets for the heads that partially overlap the
strip.
7. Tap the holes and insert button head screws.
8. Tighten down screws with some hand cut shim stock (about .004) under
the
edge over the brass.
9. Cut mold.
10. Remove the shim stock from under the screw heads.

I'ld like to eliminate steps 3, 4, & 5 as unneccessary by using some long
nose machinists clamps. The top jaw would be machined with a small half
cylinder on the tip so it can clamp directly on the brass strip. Because
they will be long nose (to get the screws away from the work piece I think
they will need to be modestly strong. I have a few pieces of 1018 laying
around, but its really not hardenable. I can case harden the faces of the
jaws with something like Cherry Red though.

I was wondering if the 1018 would be strong enough, or if I should look
for
something stronger or that can be more easily fully hardened. I do have a
little O1 on hand as well, but I rather horde it for special projects.

This particular job is a one off custom job, but the task of inserting the
brass strip (slide gate) is fairly common and I am trying to think of ways
to make it a little faster and more efficient in the future.


I would try using cyanoacrylate glue to glue the brass bar into place.
Then after milling heat to decompose the glue. Don't breathe the fumes
though. Cyanoacrylate glues are great for this type of work. I
sometimes glue parts to a faceplate in the lathe too. Your job looks,
from the pictures, like it would work well being glued.
Eric

I thought about glue, but I still need to mill the screw holes and slots
first. Onece the screws are installed its not needed. The screws do the
job. The screws are a part of the finished work assembly. They are milled
in, the screws installed and the slide bar pushed up against the screws
before doing the next step. The brass bar slides in the mold when finished
and motion is arrested against the screws. If it was glued in the bar would
be off slightly when pushed up against the screw heads later.

I never thought of CA glue for holding parts. I use Epoxy all the time. 5
minute with an hour of cure time under pressure usually works pretty good on
aluminum. If cured for 24 hr sometimes its hard to peel off. I'll have to
try the CA glue sometime.

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 09:24:38 -0700
"Bob La Londe" wrote:

snip
They do have some cool tools. Thanks for the link. I see one I want. The
three axis clamp for welding up machine bases would be really handy. If
their locking pliers are decent quality they may be a substitute for
Vise-Grip since IMO the VG quality isn't as good since they out sourced.

Picked up on them from Jody, youtube welding videos. No experience
with them but I haven't heard anyone badmouth the stuff...

Note the quick spinner for the adjustment on the locking wrenches. I
haven't noticed that elsewhere.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On 12/9/2016 7:55 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
I... StrongHand Tools ...
They carry a lot of interesting and unique products...


They do. The fly in the ointment is that they sell through distributors
(around here - welding suppliers) and those guys are very unlikely to
have the full product line. PITA

On Fri, 09 Dec 2016 14:17:44 -0500
Bob Engelhardt wrote:

On 12/9/2016 7:55 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
I... StrongHand Tools ...
They carry a lot of interesting and unique products...


They do. The fly in the ointment is that they sell through distributors
(around here - welding suppliers) and those guys are very unlikely to
have the full product line. PITA

I live by the second largest city in Michigan. I could probably
find someone around town that has them but not at a price I would be
willing to pay. For stuff like that I look on Amazon, eBay (buy it
now)... you get the idea

Sometimes Home Depot can get stuff like that and will deliver to your
local store for free. I think anything over $45 can even be shipped for
free to your house. I've done that before on a couple odd items. Their
pricing was very competitive at the time.

No good though if you want to handle or look it over first...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 09:24:38 -0700
"Bob La Londe" wrote:

snip
They do have some cool tools. Thanks for the link. I see one I want.
The
three axis clamp for welding up machine bases would be really handy. If
their locking pliers are decent quality they may be a substitute for
Vise-Grip since IMO the VG quality isn't as good since they out sourced.

Picked up on them from Jody, youtube welding videos. No experience
with them but I haven't heard anyone badmouth the stuff...

Note the quick spinner for the adjustment on the locking wrenches. I
haven't noticed that elsewhere.


There was a fellow on Ebay selling an extended length replacement screw for
locking VG brand clamping pliers a while back. I think his gimick was you
could crank them down on stuff even if you couldn't get your hands in there.
I don't remember exactly. Its been a while. It would have made a decent
quick spinner too.