On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 16:00:08 -0800 (PST), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Am Freitag, 9. Dezember 2016 23:41:14 UTC+1 schrieb :

Every make you mentioned uses plain shell bearings. Very few engines are built with roller crankshaft bearings today, and those are, as far as I know, all small, high-performance 2-strokes. Even they may have switched; I haven't kept up.

Ed, do you know what metal is used for those plain shell bearings? I'd be interested to know.

Thanks,

Chris
Quite a few use aluminum alloy bearings - some on steel backs. Some
use the same tri-metal bearings used in 50s and 60s cars - steel ,
copper, and "babbit" type bearing surface.

Quite a few Honda GX50 and GX25 engines and clones are double ball
bearing cranks.

wrote:
...
A car engine today from any decent maker is expected to
last
at least 150,000 miles. At least.

Yeah, and I guess with the not-so-decent carmakers they assume you'll take the car apart each week for cleaning anyway.

And this is in a situation where the user doesn't always change
the oil as often as they should.

I was once listening to an old radio show( "Click and Clack", I believe) where both of the hosts were saying that an oil change isn't even hardly required for modern cars but about once a year. (I don't fully remember, so much for the €œchange your oil every three months or three thousand miles, whichever comes first€� bit)

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 7:00:10 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
Am Freitag, 9. Dezember 2016 23:41:14 UTC+1 schrieb
:

Every make you mentioned uses plain shell bearings. Very few
engines are built with roller crankshaft bearings today, and those
are, as far as I know, all small, high-performance 2-strokes. Even
they may have switched; I haven't kept up.

Ed, do you know what metal is used for those plain shell bearings?
I'd be interested to know.

Thanks,

Chris

Jim gave a link to a bearing manufacturer or something a few posts up
the thread. It does a good job of telling what they're using today,
and why.

There are two basic kinds: two-layer (steel shell, silicon-aluminum
bearing face) and three-layer (high-performance, steel shell, several
other metals used in layers.) I've also heard of silver being used as
the top layer in racing engines -- extreme resistance to fatigue.

It's worth reading Jim's link.

--
Ed Huntress

===============

I've been manufacturing a bearing myself, an all-stainless ball thrust
bearing to support one of my solar panel arrays. The raceway cutter is
a broken 0.125" diameter carbide circuit board drill shank, ground
flat at the end and tilted 5 degrees from vertical for clearance. I
was hoping to cut the grooves 0.040" deep but chatter started around
0.025". The lathe gave a smooth finish in the lowest back geared
speed.
-jsw

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 4:36:53 AM UTC-8, Jim Wilkins wrote:

I've been manufacturing a bearing myself, an all-stainless ball thrust
bearing to support one of my solar panel arrays.

Good luck with that; if all else fails, though, recall that bicycles with common ball
bearings and waterproof grease last a long time, even here in rainy Seattle.
I made an SS cone to rebuild one, and did not like the results. I was young
and ignorant enough to just use a scrap of some anonymous SS, but
the failure was memorable: it didn't gall, it shredded.

"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 4:36:53 AM UTC-8, Jim Wilkins wrote:

I've been manufacturing a bearing myself, an all-stainless ball
thrust
bearing to support one of my solar panel arrays.

Good luck with that; if all else fails, though, recall that bicycles
with common ball
bearings and waterproof grease last a long time, even here in rainy
Seattle.
I made an SS cone to rebuild one, and did not like the results. I
was young
and ignorant enough to just use a scrap of some anonymous SS, but
the failure was memorable: it didn't gall, it shredded.

The existing bearing an upside-down 1" galvy floor flange resting on
1-1/4" grey plastic electrical conduit, which was only lightly
scratched by the as-received finish of the floor flange.

I really just want to see if I can make one. My stainless needle
bearings in outdoor caster wheels have held up well.

--jsw

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 22:09:24 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

wrote:
...
A car engine today from any decent maker is expected to
last
at least 150,000 miles. At least.

Yeah, and I guess with the not-so-decent carmakers they assume you'll take the car apart each week for cleaning anyway.

And this is in a situation where the user doesn't always change
the oil as often as they should.

I was once listening to an old radio show( "Click and Clack", I believe) where both of the hosts were saying that an oil change isn't even hardly required for modern cars but about once a year. (I don't fully remember, so much for the “change your oil every three months or three thousand miles, whichever comes first” bit)
With today's synthetic oils, leadfree gasoline, and electronic engine
controls, oil changes are not as critical as they used to be. I was
always a 3 months, 3000 mile guy with my carbureted and early fuel
injected vehicles using regular oil. On my current OBD2 equiped
vehicles running synthetics I change the oil twice a year - and at
just over 10,000km a year that is overkill.
Depending on driving conditions and how fast the miles are put on,
intervals as high as 15,000km can be acceptable (if those "miles" are
put on in less than 6 months)

On 2016-12-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-07, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 7 Dec 2016 03:00:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]

Are clutch pilot bearings still sintered bronze? That's a dusty,
dirty, hot, and demanding application.

Well -- the MGA (1956 to I think around 1964) used needle roller
bearings for the clutch pilot, and the throwout bearing was a graphite
ring in a cup applied to a hardened steel ring..

Caged? Wow, advanced tech back then.

No such luck! :-)

At least those trannies were
single-armers. I used both knees and both arms to hoist my Borg T-10
up into the Javelin bell housing.

Well ... with the MGA, while the tranny was lighter, it included
the bell housing as part of its casting, so you needed to pull the
engine and trans as an assembly out of the car before you could either
pull the trans off the engine or re-install it. :-)

Back then, it took an hour for that job. It's a little different
today.

A bit longer if you followed the official service manual
instructions. They had you pull the trans tunnel, which required first
removing the seats and the (plywood) floorboards, and the screws holding
them in were usually rusty from salt spray from winter roads around
here.

After the first time, we figured out a way to do it with the
trans tunnel still in place. (Remove the smaller panel with the
gearshift boot, reach through that with a 1/4" drive ratchet and
extension and pull the shifter off, then reach down through there to
undo the four drive shaft flange bolts, and put an old V-belt around the
flange and through a 2x4. Then get under, an reach up the sides of the
trans and remove the nut and bolt which go through a rubber shock ring,
supporting the weight of the trans and engine with that V-belt and
lever. Once that was done, you also disconnect all wires from the
engine, and all hoses, attach a hoist (pulley over a tree limb), undo
the front mount pads, and lower the tail of the trans while pulling the
engine nose-up out of the engine compartment. (Actually you could leave
the engine over the compartment while removing the trans.) And, since
it was so much trouble to get to it all, while you had it out to replace
the clutch and pressure plate, also pull the trans apart and replace the
synchronizer rings. :-)

But if you want one which is *really* a pain to work on, find a
MGA twin-cam. Dual overhead cams, and the distributor was mounted facing
the radiator. To do a tune-up, you had to remove the radiator to
access the distributor. :-(

Of course -- there was the Sunbeam Tiger (no, I didn't have one)
which required removing two access plates in the firewall -- to reach
through and change the rear-most spark plug on each side of the V-8
engine. :-)

I remember climbing over the fender of my '60 F-100 and
standing next to the 312cid V-8 to do the tuneup. I could see right
down into the distributor for points and condenser. change, and the
spark plugs were right in front of me. Times have changed.

Yep!

The needle roller bearing was not an assembly, but rather a
cluster of needles which you put in place with some grease to hold them
until the input shaft pilot was into place.

I thought that kind of sadism was limited to u-joint cups...

It was not that bad, I had the engine hanging from a tree with a
pulley, and could easily insert the needle bearings, and then lift the
trans and put it into the back of the engine, with the pilot starting
nicely enough. It helped to have another pair of hands to put the first
couple of bolts in place holding the trans to the engine. :-)

First stab is the reckoning. You start to tighten the bolts and it
just doesn't want to easily slide up to the engine block when you
realize that a needle is caught. Gently undo it all and start over.
BTDT, got the t-shirt.

We made sure that it would slide up fully *before* putting in
the first bolt.:-)

OBTW -- The MGB was the same, as I put an 1800 CC MGB engine
in my 1622 CC MGA 1600 Mark II.

Ricky Racer, wot? I'll bet that pepped it up a bit.

It did give it some pep. Surprised a number of people at
stoplights and such. :-) Also, while a friend had that engine in *his*
MGA, he took it in to get a professional tuneup, and the performance
surprised the fellow who did the work. He didn't spot the fact that the
engine was not original.

There were only 2 places I ever used long grain wheel bearing grease.
The first was on water pump gaskets, after gluing the gasket to the
pump. I hated scraping old gaskets off timing case covers. The second
was to glue the loose needle bearings in u-joint cups so they wouldn't
be crushed in the press during assembly. I bought the Harbor Freight
5" Mechanic's vise in 1976 for that latter use. Once the cups were
flush-seated, I could use a dowel and mallet to finish seating them to
snap-ring depth. The newer moly wbg didn't work worth a crap to hold
those needles.

At that time, I had only a very tiny bottle of Molly grease,
which I used for hand tapping with spiral point (gun) taps.

Yeah, it wasn't extremely available when I started that. Now,
searching for the long grain grease is like finding a dinosaur tooth.

It was given me by my employer in a little bottle about 1/2"
diameter -- from a big can of the stuff. (I had to occasionally climb
into awkward places and tap holes for cable clamps and the like, and I
broke fewer taps with that grease on hand. When I moved on to another
job, I kept that little bottle. :-)

Now I have bought a can of my own. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2016-12-09, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2016 07:04:37 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]

OBTW -- The MGB was the same, as I put an 1800 CC MGB engine
in my 1622 CC MGA 1600 Mark II.

Ricky Racer, wot? I'll bet that pepped it up a bit.

\ You want to see a twin carb 1800 B in a '53 TD!!!

What was the original engine size in the '53 TD? The MGA came
with 1498 CC, 1598 CC, and 1622 CC IIRC. I understand that the 1498 was
to avoid a punitive tax on engines larger than 1500 CC in the UK at that
time. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 10:27:21 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-12-09, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2016 07:04:37 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]

OBTW -- The MGB was the same, as I put an 1800 CC MGB engine
in my 1622 CC MGA 1600 Mark II.

Ricky Racer, wot? I'll bet that pepped it up a bit.

\ You want to see a twin carb 1800 B in a '53 TD!!!

What was the original engine size in the '53 TD? The MGA came
with 1498 CC, 1598 CC, and 1622 CC IIRC. I understand that the 1498 was
to avoid a punitive tax on engines larger than 1500 CC in the UK at that
time. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Could you work all the pedals without hitting two at once in your MGA? I have wide feet, and the narrowness down among the pedals is what turned me off. For me, a heel-and-toe was impossible in that car. My MG Midget had more room.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2016-12-12, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 16:00:08 -0800 (PST), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Am Freitag, 9. Dezember 2016 23:41:14 UTC+1 schrieb :

Every make you mentioned uses plain shell bearings. Very few engines are built with roller crankshaft bearings today, and those are, as far as I know, all small, high-performance 2-strokes. Even they may have switched; I haven't kept up.

Ed, do you know what metal is used for those plain shell bearings? I'd be interested to know.

Thanks,

Chris
Quite a few use aluminum alloy bearings - some on steel backs. Some
use the same tri-metal bearings used in 50s and 60s cars - steel ,
copper, and "babbit" type bearing surface.

And a failed bearing of that type is a "runny babbit". :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 13 Dec 2016 03:24:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-07, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 7 Dec 2016 03:00:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]

Are clutch pilot bearings still sintered bronze? That's a dusty,
dirty, hot, and demanding application.

Well -- the MGA (1956 to I think around 1964) used needle roller
bearings for the clutch pilot, and the throwout bearing was a graphite
ring in a cup applied to a hardened steel ring..

Caged? Wow, advanced tech back then.

No such luck! :-)

At least those trannies were
single-armers. I used both knees and both arms to hoist my Borg T-10
up into the Javelin bell housing.

Well ... with the MGA, while the tranny was lighter, it included
the bell housing as part of its casting, so you needed to pull the
engine and trans as an assembly out of the car before you could either
pull the trans off the engine or re-install it. :-)

Back then, it took an hour for that job. It's a little different
today.

A bit longer if you followed the official service manual
instructions. They had you pull the trans tunnel, which required first
removing the seats and the (plywood) floorboards, and the screws holding
them in were usually rusty from salt spray from winter roads around
here.

After the first time, we figured out a way to do it with the
trans tunnel still in place. (Remove the smaller panel with the
gearshift boot, reach through that with a 1/4" drive ratchet and
extension and pull the shifter off, then reach down through there to
undo the four drive shaft flange bolts, and put an old V-belt around the
flange and through a 2x4. Then get under, an reach up the sides of the
trans and remove the nut and bolt which go through a rubber shock ring,
supporting the weight of the trans and engine with that V-belt and
lever. Once that was done, you also disconnect all wires from the
engine, and all hoses, attach a hoist (pulley over a tree limb), undo
the front mount pads, and lower the tail of the trans while pulling the
engine nose-up out of the engine compartment. (Actually you could leave
the engine over the compartment while removing the trans.) And, since
it was so much trouble to get to it all, while you had it out to replace
the clutch and pressure plate, also pull the trans apart and replace the
synchronizer rings. :-)

But if you want one which is *really* a pain to work on, find a
MGA twin-cam. Dual overhead cams, and the distributor was mounted facing
the radiator. To do a tune-up, you had to remove the radiator to
access the distributor. :-(

Of course -- there was the Sunbeam Tiger (no, I didn't have one)
which required removing two access plates in the firewall -- to reach
through and change the rear-most spark plug on each side of the V-8
engine. :-)

Then there were the 2 liter and 3500 Rovers --_

On 13 Dec 2016 03:29:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-09, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2016 07:04:37 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]

OBTW -- The MGB was the same, as I put an 1800 CC MGB engine
in my 1622 CC MGA 1600 Mark II.

Ricky Racer, wot? I'll bet that pepped it up a bit.

\ You want to see a twin carb 1800 B in a '53 TD!!!

What was the original engine size in the '53 TD? The MGA came
with 1498 CC, 1598 CC, and 1622 CC IIRC. I understand that the 1498 was
to avoid a punitive tax on engines larger than 1500 CC in the UK at that
time. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.


1292 cc XPAG

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:53:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 4:36:53 AM UTC-8, Jim Wilkins wrote:

I've been manufacturing a bearing myself, an all-stainless ball
thrust
bearing to support one of my solar panel arrays.

Good luck with that; if all else fails, though, recall that bicycles
with common ball
bearings and waterproof grease last a long time, even here in rainy
Seattle.
I made an SS cone to rebuild one, and did not like the results. I
was young
and ignorant enough to just use a scrap of some anonymous SS, but
the failure was memorable: it didn't gall, it shredded.

The existing bearing an upside-down 1" galvy floor flange resting on
1-1/4" grey plastic electrical conduit, which was only lightly
scratched by the as-received finish of the floor flange.

I really just want to see if I can make one. My stainless needle
bearings in outdoor caster wheels have held up well.

That's cool. What's the weight on them?

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On 13 Dec 2016 03:24:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:
Well ... with the MGA, while the tranny was lighter, it included
the bell housing as part of its casting, so you needed to pull the
engine and trans as an assembly out of the car before you could either
pull the trans off the engine or re-install it. :-)

Back then, it took an hour for that job. It's a little different
today.

A bit longer if you followed the official service manual
instructions. They had you pull the trans tunnel, which required first
removing the seats and the (plywood) floorboards, and the screws holding
them in were usually rusty from salt spray from winter roads around
here.

Eek! Inside bolts and salt? Boo! Condolences.


After the first time, we figured out a way to do it with the
trans tunnel still in place. (Remove the smaller panel with the
gearshift boot, reach through that with a 1/4" drive ratchet and
extension and pull the shifter off, then reach down through there to
undo the four drive shaft flange bolts, and put an old V-belt around the
flange and through a 2x4. Then get under, an reach up the sides of the
trans and remove the nut and bolt which go through a rubber shock ring,
supporting the weight of the trans and engine with that V-belt and
lever. Once that was done, you also disconnect all wires from the
engine, and all hoses, attach a hoist (pulley over a tree limb), undo
the front mount pads, and lower the tail of the trans while pulling the
engine nose-up out of the engine compartment. (Actually you could leave
the engine over the compartment while removing the trans.) And, since
it was so much trouble to get to it all, while you had it out to replace
the clutch and pressure plate, also pull the trans apart and replace the
synchronizer rings. :-)

And remove the thick layer of bronze dust caking the bottom of the
tranny.


But if you want one which is *really* a pain to work on, find a
MGA twin-cam. Dual overhead cams, and the distributor was mounted facing
the radiator. To do a tune-up, you had to remove the radiator to
access the distributor. :-(

V-8 tuneup on '64 Mustang also required an engine R&R, but many people
cut holes in the inner fender well, which was part of the unibody on
the Mustang. Who cares if the front end folded up on you after that,
or fell apart after going over a pothole? g


Of course -- there was the Sunbeam Tiger (no, I didn't have one)
which required removing two access plates in the firewall -- to reach
through and change the rear-most spark plug on each side of the V-8
engine. :-)

I remember climbing over the fender of my '60 F-100 and
standing next to the 312cid V-8 to do the tuneup. I could see right
down into the distributor for points and condenser. change, and the
spark plugs were right in front of me. Times have changed.

Yep!

The needle roller bearing was not an assembly, but rather a
cluster of needles which you put in place with some grease to hold them
until the input shaft pilot was into place.

I thought that kind of sadism was limited to u-joint cups...

It was not that bad, I had the engine hanging from a tree with a
pulley, and could easily insert the needle bearings, and then lift the
trans and put it into the back of the engine, with the pilot starting
nicely enough. It helped to have another pair of hands to put the first
couple of bolts in place holding the trans to the engine. :-)

First stab is the reckoning. You start to tighten the bolts and it
just doesn't want to easily slide up to the engine block when you
realize that a needle is caught. Gently undo it all and start over.
BTDT, got the t-shirt.

We made sure that it would slide up fully *before* putting in
the first bolt.:-)

I learned to use two long studs so it would be lined up, then I just
had to be sure it was level/parallel to the engine when I stabbed.
That saved me lots of hours of cursing over the years, but I wish I'd
learned the trick earlier.


OBTW -- The MGB was the same, as I put an 1800 CC MGB engine
in my 1622 CC MGA 1600 Mark II.

Ricky Racer, wot? I'll bet that pepped it up a bit.

It did give it some pep. Surprised a number of people at
stoplights and such. :-) Also, while a friend had that engine in *his*
MGA, he took it in to get a professional tuneup, and the performance
surprised the fellow who did the work. He didn't spot the fact that the
engine was not original.

Um, how could he do a tune-up on an engine without knowing what engine
it was? Or had he test-driven it before the tune-up? That's
something I always did, but most other mechanics I knew at the
dealerships seldom did.


There were only 2 places I ever used long grain wheel bearing grease.
The first was on water pump gaskets, after gluing the gasket to the
pump. I hated scraping old gaskets off timing case covers. The second
was to glue the loose needle bearings in u-joint cups so they wouldn't
be crushed in the press during assembly. I bought the Harbor Freight
5" Mechanic's vise in 1976 for that latter use. Once the cups were
flush-seated, I could use a dowel and mallet to finish seating them to
snap-ring depth. The newer moly wbg didn't work worth a crap to hold
those needles.

At that time, I had only a very tiny bottle of Molly grease,
which I used for hand tapping with spiral point (gun) taps.

Yeah, it wasn't extremely available when I started that. Now,
searching for the long grain grease is like finding a dinosaur tooth.

It was given me by my employer in a little bottle about 1/2"
diameter -- from a big can of the stuff. (I had to occasionally climb
into awkward places and tap holes for cable clamps and the like, and I
broke fewer taps with that grease on hand. When I moved on to another
job, I kept that little bottle. :-)

Now I have bought a can of my own. :-)

I ran out a long time ago, but I haven't had the need for it in a long
time, so I haven't tried to find another tub of it.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:28:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 13 Dec 2016 03:24:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:
Well ... with the MGA, while the tranny was lighter, it included
the bell housing as part of its casting, so you needed to pull the
engine and trans as an assembly out of the car before you could either
pull the trans off the engine or re-install it. :-)

Back then, it took an hour for that job. It's a little different
today.

A bit longer if you followed the official service manual
instructions. They had you pull the trans tunnel, which required first
removing the seats and the (plywood) floorboards, and the screws holding
them in were usually rusty from salt spray from winter roads around
here.

Eek! Inside bolts and salt? Boo! Condolences.


After the first time, we figured out a way to do it with the
trans tunnel still in place. (Remove the smaller panel with the
gearshift boot, reach through that with a 1/4" drive ratchet and
extension and pull the shifter off, then reach down through there to
undo the four drive shaft flange bolts, and put an old V-belt around the
flange and through a 2x4. Then get under, an reach up the sides of the
trans and remove the nut and bolt which go through a rubber shock ring,
supporting the weight of the trans and engine with that V-belt and
lever. Once that was done, you also disconnect all wires from the
engine, and all hoses, attach a hoist (pulley over a tree limb), undo
the front mount pads, and lower the tail of the trans while pulling the
engine nose-up out of the engine compartment. (Actually you could leave
the engine over the compartment while removing the trans.) And, since
it was so much trouble to get to it all, while you had it out to replace
the clutch and pressure plate, also pull the trans apart and replace the
synchronizer rings. :-)

And remove the thick layer of bronze dust caking the bottom of the
tranny.


But if you want one which is *really* a pain to work on, find a
MGA twin-cam. Dual overhead cams, and the distributor was mounted facing
the radiator. To do a tune-up, you had to remove the radiator to
access the distributor. :-(

V-8 tuneup on '64 Mustang also required an engine R&R, but many people
cut holes in the inner fender well, which was part of the unibody on
the Mustang. Who cares if the front end folded up on you after that,
or fell apart after going over a pothole? g


I changed a fair number of plugs on 260 cu inch V8 'stangs without
pulling the engine.

Of course -- there was the Sunbeam Tiger (no, I didn't have one)
which required removing two access plates in the firewall -- to reach
through and change the rear-most spark plug on each side of the V-8
engine. :-)

And the plugs on the Tiger can be removed without removing anytrhing
other than the plug wires.. You want the engine cold, regardless - but
plug socket, SK plug ratchet, 3 inch extension, ans perhaps a box-end
wrench to fit the socket, and about 20 minutes to half an hour - and
it's done.

I remember climbing over the fender of my '60 F-100 and
standing next to the 312cid V-8 to do the tuneup. I could see right
down into the distributor for points and condenser. change, and the
spark plugs were right in front of me. Times have changed.

Yep!

Nothing as easy as changing the plugs on a classic Mini.
Mopar hemi was pretty easy too, bit required a long socket extention

The needle roller bearing was not an assembly, but rather a
cluster of needles which you put in place with some grease to hold them
until the input shaft pilot was into place.

I thought that kind of sadism was limited to u-joint cups...

It was not that bad, I had the engine hanging from a tree with a
pulley, and could easily insert the needle bearings, and then lift the
trans and put it into the back of the engine, with the pilot starting
nicely enough. It helped to have another pair of hands to put the first
couple of bolts in place holding the trans to the engine. :-)

First stab is the reckoning. You start to tighten the bolts and it
just doesn't want to easily slide up to the engine block when you
realize that a needle is caught. Gently undo it all and start over.
BTDT, got the t-shirt.

We made sure that it would slide up fully *before* putting in
the first bolt.:-)

I learned to use two long studs so it would be lined up, then I just
had to be sure it was level/parallel to the engine when I stabbed.
That saved me lots of hours of cursing over the years, but I wish I'd
learned the trick earlier.


OBTW -- The MGB was the same, as I put an 1800 CC MGB engine
in my 1622 CC MGA 1600 Mark II.

Ricky Racer, wot? I'll bet that pepped it up a bit.

It did give it some pep. Surprised a number of people at
stoplights and such. :-) Also, while a friend had that engine in *his*
MGA, he took it in to get a professional tuneup, and the performance
surprised the fellow who did the work. He didn't spot the fact that the
engine was not original.

Um, how could he do a tune-up on an engine without knowing what engine
it was? Or had he test-driven it before the tune-up? That's
something I always did, but most other mechanics I knew at the
dealerships seldom did.


There were only 2 places I ever used long grain wheel bearing grease.
The first was on water pump gaskets, after gluing the gasket to the
pump. I hated scraping old gaskets off timing case covers. The second
was to glue the loose needle bearings in u-joint cups so they wouldn't
be crushed in the press during assembly. I bought the Harbor Freight
5" Mechanic's vise in 1976 for that latter use. Once the cups were
flush-seated, I could use a dowel and mallet to finish seating them to
snap-ring depth. The newer moly wbg didn't work worth a crap to hold
those needles.

At that time, I had only a very tiny bottle of Molly grease,
which I used for hand tapping with spiral point (gun) taps.

Yeah, it wasn't extremely available when I started that. Now,
searching for the long grain grease is like finding a dinosaur tooth.

It was given me by my employer in a little bottle about 1/2"
diameter -- from a big can of the stuff. (I had to occasionally climb
into awkward places and tap holes for cable clamps and the like, and I
broke fewer taps with that grease on hand. When I moved on to another
job, I kept that little bottle. :-)

Now I have bought a can of my own. :-)

I ran out a long time ago, but I haven't had the need for it in a long
time, so I haven't tried to find another tub of it.

On 2016-12-14, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 13 Dec 2016 03:24:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

OBTW -- The MGB was the same, as I put an 1800 CC MGB engine
in my 1622 CC MGA 1600 Mark II.

Ricky Racer, wot? I'll bet that pepped it up a bit.

It did give it some pep. Surprised a number of people at
stoplights and such. :-) Also, while a friend had that engine in *his*
MGA, he took it in to get a professional tuneup, and the performance
surprised the fellow who did the work. He didn't spot the fact that the
engine was not original.

Um, how could he do a tune-up on an engine without knowing what engine
it was? Or had he test-driven it before the tune-up? That's
something I always did, but most other mechanics I knew at the
dealerships seldom did.

This was some place which specialized in tuning Ferraris and the
like, and probably did not see too many MGAs. The carbs and air
cleaners on it were from the 1622 CC MGA engine to make them fit. IIRC
the coolant pump was also from the MGA engine, so it looked pretty
similar. The rear mounting plate was also from the MGA. So all told,
it looked pretty much like an MGA engine. Perhaps tweaking the needles
in the carbs would have made a difference.

[ ... ]

At that time, I had only a very tiny bottle of Molly grease,
which I used for hand tapping with spiral point (gun) taps.

Yeah, it wasn't extremely available when I started that. Now,
searching for the long grain grease is like finding a dinosaur tooth.

It was given me by my employer in a little bottle about 1/2"
diameter -- from a big can of the stuff. (I had to occasionally climb
into awkward places and tap holes for cable clamps and the like, and I
broke fewer taps with that grease on hand. When I moved on to another
job, I kept that little bottle. :-)

Now I have bought a can of my own. :-)

I ran out a long time ago, but I haven't had the need for it in a long
time, so I haven't tried to find another tub of it.

The molly grease, or the long-string bearing grease? I was
talking about the Molly grease, and I needed it for re-lubing a
boring/facing head made by Gamet after having to use a lot of heat to
release some loctite holding the spindle adaptor on. (NTMB-30, FWIW).

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2016-12-13, wrote:
On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 10:27:21 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

Could you work all the pedals without hitting two at once in your MGA?
I have wide feet, and the narrowness down among the pedals is what
turned me off. For me, a heel-and-toe was impossible in that car. My MG
Midget had more room.

I could individually operate all the pedals, but I also took
advantage of the closeness to trade off brake and accelerator by using
the sides of a single foot. Useful while sitting at a light with a
steep uphill, so I could zap the engine as I was coming off the clutch
and let the brake off at the same time. :-) (Already, there were so many
driving automatic transmissions that had no idea that it would be polite
to leave a little room for the uphill person to roll back as he got a
manual transmission car started after a light change.

BTW -- In the MGA (at least the one in the US) the passenger could
operate the accelerator. There was a crank over the trans tunnel
conveying the pedal operation to the right side where the
accelerator linkage cable to the carbs was attached. You could,
as a passenger, hook a toe under the crank and lift to goose the
engine and surprise the driver. :-)

And the clutch and brake were moved to the left side for the USA
by simply unbolting the dual hydraulic cylinder and re-bolting
it on the new driver's side.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 9:42:32 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-12-13, wrote:
On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 10:27:21 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

Could you work all the pedals without hitting two at once in your MGA?
I have wide feet, and the narrowness down among the pedals is what
turned me off. For me, a heel-and-toe was impossible in that car. My MG
Midget had more room.

I could individually operate all the pedals, but I also took
advantage of the closeness to trade off brake and accelerator by using
the sides of a single foot.

Aha! Yes, I remember that some writer, writing about the MGA, called it "toe-and-toe." I don't think that my toes would easily adapt to multitasking. d8-) Drag braking was just becoming accepted as a racing technique (late '60s), and there was already a hell of a lot going on when you engaged in that.

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 10:39:34 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 9:42:32 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-12-13, wrote:

I could individually operate all the pedals, but I also took
advantage of the closeness to trade off brake and accelerator by using
the sides of a single foot.

Aha! Yes, I remember that some writer, writing about the MGA, called it "toe-and-toe." I don't think that my toes would easily adapt to multitasking.. d8-) Drag braking was just becoming accepted as a racing technique (late '60s), and there was already a hell of a lot going on when you engaged in that.

For "drag braking" read "trail braking." My memory is getting a little blunt on the edges...

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:39:13 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:28:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 13 Dec 2016 03:24:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:
But if you want one which is *really* a pain to work on, find a
MGA twin-cam. Dual overhead cams, and the distributor was mounted facing
the radiator. To do a tune-up, you had to remove the radiator to
access the distributor. :-(

V-8 tuneup on '64 Mustang also required an engine R&R, but many people
cut holes in the inner fender well, which was part of the unibody on
the Mustang. Who cares if the front end folded up on you after that,
or fell apart after going over a pothole? g


I changed a fair number of plugs on 260 cu inch V8 'stangs without
pulling the engine.

It's damned tough, especially with a hot engine, but doable. The most
successful mod was a 2" hole in the fender well, right between the 2
center plugs. A single hole didn't compromise the structural integrity
nearly as badly, and usually wouldn't void the insurance.


Of course -- there was the Sunbeam Tiger (no, I didn't have one)
which required removing two access plates in the firewall -- to reach
through and change the rear-most spark plug on each side of the V-8
engine. :-)

And the plugs on the Tiger can be removed without removing anytrhing
other than the plug wires.. You want the engine cold, regardless - but
plug socket, SK plug ratchet, 3 inch extension, ans perhaps a box-end
wrench to fit the socket, and about 20 minutes to half an hour - and
it's done.

There must have been some room in there. Kudos, Sunbeam.


I remember climbing over the fender of my '60 F-100 and
standing next to the 312cid V-8 to do the tuneup. I could see right
down into the distributor for points and condenser. change, and the
spark plugs were right in front of me. Times have changed.

Yep!

Nothing as easy as changing the plugs on a classic Mini.
Mopar hemi was pretty easy too, bit required a long socket extention

And an air nozzle. Yank the wires and blow the crap out before
unscrewing the plugs. I saw some pretty large pebbles in those deep
wells, not to mention pine needles, twigs, sand, and other things that
mice liked to pack in.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On 14 Dec 2016 02:33:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 13 Dec 2016 03:24:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

OBTW -- The MGB was the same, as I put an 1800 CC MGB engine
in my 1622 CC MGA 1600 Mark II.

Ricky Racer, wot? I'll bet that pepped it up a bit.

It did give it some pep. Surprised a number of people at
stoplights and such. :-) Also, while a friend had that engine in *his*
MGA, he took it in to get a professional tuneup, and the performance
surprised the fellow who did the work. He didn't spot the fact that the
engine was not original.

Um, how could he do a tune-up on an engine without knowing what engine
it was? Or had he test-driven it before the tune-up? That's
something I always did, but most other mechanics I knew at the
dealerships seldom did.

This was some place which specialized in tuning Ferraris and the
like, and probably did not see too many MGAs. The carbs and air
cleaners on it were from the 1622 CC MGA engine to make them fit. IIRC
the coolant pump was also from the MGA engine, so it looked pretty
similar. The rear mounting plate was also from the MGA. So all told,
it looked pretty much like an MGA engine. Perhaps tweaking the needles
in the carbs would have made a difference.

But were the plugs, points, and condenser the same? I wutna thunk so.
/rhetoricals


I ran out a long time ago, but I haven't had the need for it in a long
time, so I haven't tried to find another tub of it.

The molly grease, or the long-string bearing grease? I was
talking about the Molly grease, and I needed it for re-lubing a
boring/facing head made by Gamet after having to use a lot of heat to
release some loctite holding the spindle adaptor on. (NTMB-30, FWIW).

Long grain parboiled, Don. Tubs of moly grease are a dime a dozen.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:53:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


...My stainless needle
bearings in outdoor caster wheels have held up well.

That's cool. What's the weight on them?

They are under a lift platform that I use in the back yard. There
wasn't enough space to make them large enough to roll on dirt with a
load so they are stationary when lifting my snowblower etc. It's SO
much easier to work on small engines while standing up.

The other useful auction find for working on engines is a rolling cart
like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rubbermaid-F...ht_2218wt_1106

I use it for removed parts and hardware, to keep them close enough to
pick up the retaining screws while holding a part in place. The tool
box is on a folding table placed back out of the way.
-jsw

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 21:27:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 14 Dec 2016 02:33:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 13 Dec 2016 03:24:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 9 Dec 2016 04:42:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

OBTW -- The MGB was the same, as I put an 1800 CC MGB engine
in my 1622 CC MGA 1600 Mark II.

Ricky Racer, wot? I'll bet that pepped it up a bit.

It did give it some pep. Surprised a number of people at
stoplights and such. :-) Also, while a friend had that engine in *his*
MGA, he took it in to get a professional tuneup, and the performance
surprised the fellow who did the work. He didn't spot the fact that the
engine was not original.

Um, how could he do a tune-up on an engine without knowing what engine
it was? Or had he test-driven it before the tune-up? That's
something I always did, but most other mechanics I knew at the
dealerships seldom did.

This was some place which specialized in tuning Ferraris and the
like, and probably did not see too many MGAs. The carbs and air
cleaners on it were from the 1622 CC MGA engine to make them fit. IIRC
the coolant pump was also from the MGA engine, so it looked pretty
similar. The rear mounting plate was also from the MGA. So all told,
it looked pretty much like an MGA engine. Perhaps tweaking the needles
in the carbs would have made a difference.

But were the plugs, points, and condenser the same? I wutna thunk so.
/rhetoricals

Well, if it was pre '74 it used the same points as the A. The plugs
on the A were generally a bit colder than the B - Stock1962 A used a
Champion N5C. The 1862 B used RN9YC - Close enough not to tip off the
tuner if he looked at what was there and how it burned - and replaced
the plugs accordingly. A st if N4 or N% plugs in a tuned B might be
just about perfect - - -

So, the answer is yes, the tuneup parts were pretty much the same (on
the pre-emission control engines, anyways)

Trimmed

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:21:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:53:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


...My stainless needle
bearings in outdoor caster wheels have held up well.

That's cool. What's the weight on them?

They are under a lift platform that I use in the back yard. There
wasn't enough space to make them large enough to roll on dirt with a
load so they are stationary when lifting my snowblower etc. It's SO
much easier to work on small engines while standing up.

Oh? I thought you said it was under your solar array. /doubletake


The other useful auction find for working on engines is a rolling cart
like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rubbermaid-F...ht_2218wt_1106

I use it for removed parts and hardware, to keep them close enough to
pick up the retaining screws while holding a part in place. The tool
box is on a folding table placed back out of the way.

I have a HF 2-shelf metal style, similar to those. Works a treat.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On 2016-12-14, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 02:33:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 13 Dec 2016 03:24:31 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"

[ ... ]

This was some place which specialized in tuning Ferraris and the
like, and probably did not see too many MGAs. The carbs and air
cleaners on it were from the 1622 CC MGA engine to make them fit. IIRC
the coolant pump was also from the MGA engine, so it looked pretty
similar. The rear mounting plate was also from the MGA. So all told,
it looked pretty much like an MGA engine. Perhaps tweaking the needles
in the carbs would have made a difference.

But were the plugs, points, and condenser the same? I wutna thunk so.
/rhetoricals

Pretty much identical as far as I remember. The distributor may
even have been from the MGA, depending on whether it got bashed in being
removed from the wreck which donated it. Since it went into my friend's
car first, I'm not sure of all that he did to it to make it work.

I ran out a long time ago, but I haven't had the need for it in a long
time, so I haven't tried to find another tub of it.

The molly grease, or the long-string bearing grease? I was
talking about the Molly grease, and I needed it for re-lubing a
boring/facing head made by Gamet after having to use a lot of heat to
release some loctite holding the spindle adaptor on. (NTMB-30, FWIW).

Long grain parboiled, Don. Tubs of moly grease are a dime a dozen.

Not when I got my first (tiny bottle of) Moly grease. This was
back in the mid 1960s IIRC.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 15 Dec 2016 02:58:39 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Larry Jaques wrote:

Long grain parboiled, Don. Tubs of moly grease are a dime a dozen.

Not when I got my first (tiny bottle of) Moly grease. This was
back in the mid 1960s IIRC.

It's the exact opposite today. Moly plentiful, long-fiber scarce.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:21:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:53:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


...My stainless needle
bearings in outdoor caster wheels have held up well.

That's cool. What's the weight on them?

They are under a lift platform that I use in the back yard. There
wasn't enough space to make them large enough to roll on dirt with a
load so they are stationary when lifting my snowblower etc. It's SO
much easier to work on small engines while standing up.

Oh? I thought you said it was under your solar array. /doubletake


The ball thrust bearing is for adding tracking to an HF 45W panel set.
It's the same size as 1-1/4" pipe, with clearance for 1" pipe to pass
through. The stainless needle bearings are on wheels of equipment
stored under cover on ground that may flood.

I bought the HF kit to experiment with, knowing it isn't large enough
to run more than a laptop. Over 5 years its output has degraded to
about 1.6A and the parallel undersized blocking diodes on the input
shorted and had to be replaced with one larger Schottky. Without the
diode the battery can feed back to the panel, creating a short-circuit
hazard. The digital power meter on my larger roof array also failed so
now the panels are on the list of connections I unplug before
thunderstorms.

I mainly use it to keep vehicle batteries topped up, for which it
works well. The battery in my truck is 14 years old and my tractor has
had a series of cheap U1R batteries others had discarded. They need
frequent top-off charges to ward off sulfation, or whatever else
causes capacity to drop and automatic chargers to stop charging the
battery. My chargers are manual, home-made, and allow me to increase
the voltage until the "dead" battery accepts charge current again. I
decided not to make and sell them because they can easily destroy a
battery if misused or left unattended too long.

I keep track of starting battery condition with an HF carbon pile
tester by reading the current when the voltage needle is at the 10V
pass/fail step. Autozone measured the starting current the (warm)
truck actually draws with their hand-held tester. Although it needs
more current when cold it would be in the driveway where I can plug in
a charger.

--jsw

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:46:53 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
my tractor has
had a series of cheap U1R batteries others had discarded.

These lithium batteries caught my eye last spring:

https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-Phosp...dp/B00O4FLQN2/

I've had pretty good luck with the lawn tractor battery but the
motorcycle battery has always been troublesome. Real lucky to get 5
years from one, usually less. Stored inside, water topped off with
distilled, regularly charged with a smart desulphating charger... If one
of those lithium replacements would last around 10 years it would be
worth it.

You tried any of the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries yet?

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:46:53 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
my tractor has
had a series of cheap U1R batteries others had discarded.

These lithium batteries caught my eye last spring:

https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-Phosp...dp/B00O4FLQN2/

The price is very interesting, compared to $1000 for some of the
others on that page. How do you keep your regulator output from
exceeding 10A, or limit the under-hood temperature to 140F?


I've had pretty good luck with the lawn tractor battery but the
motorcycle battery has always been troublesome. Real lucky to get 5
years from one, usually less. Stored inside, water topped off with
distilled, regularly charged with a smart desulphating charger... If
one
of those lithium replacements would last around 10 years it would be
worth it.

You tried any of the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries yet?

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


I was the battery tech at Segway and Zoll Medical, and once a chemist
who experienced a Lithium Aluminum Hydride fire in a fume hood.

Lithiums are great while they work, as long as you observe the many
restrictions on them. When they deteriorate there's no way I know to
salvage them. The ones I tested had a supposedly guaranteed lifetime
of at least 3 years but my experience has been that it varied from
less than one year to possibly as much as 15.

Commercial Lithium packs have built-in supervisory circuits like this
to limit their charge and discharge voltages, balance the individual
cells and hopefully protect them from igniting:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slus039/slus039.pdf

It's possible to use the batteries without a control circuit but you
need to watch them carefully. At Segway we charged individual
evaluation samples with either a model airplane charger or a voltage
and current controlled lab power supply. One battery isn't as bad as a
string of them since unlike other battery types they have no good
inherent way to divert excess current once fully charged, so without
an external balancing circuit an unequal cell may allow others to
overcharge before the pack reaches its "full" voltage.

The "Gas Gauge" circuit integrates and records charge and discharge
currents on the assumption that charging is 100% efficient. It needs
an initial calibration to determine the actual Coulomb capacity of the
pack, and recalibration as the pack ages. That's why a laptop may shut
off at 40% indicated remaining capacity.

Which "smart, desulfating charger" did you use? Opinions vary on their
effectiveness. Pulsing makes sense from the circuit designer's
perspective because it cheaply forces current with higher voltage
while limiting current and heating, but I'm not so sure it does what
they claim inside the battery. The DC overvoltage desulfation method
I use can run away if the current isn't limited by either circuitry or
using a small solar panel as the source.

--jsw

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:27:27 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
The price is very interesting, compared to $1000 for some of the
others on that page. How do you keep your regulator output from
exceeding 10A, or limit the under-hood temperature to 140F?

I wondered how they were overcoming some of the inherent troubles of
lithium batteries. The proper one for my motorcycle would be this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-Phosp...dp/B00XWYH3AG/

I don't know what they are up to, it is suppose to be a direct drop in
replacement for my bike. Motorcycles in general don't have very strong
alternators. I have the specs, could look it up if you want...

snip
I was the battery tech at Segway and Zoll Medical, and once a chemist
who experienced a Lithium Aluminum Hydride fire in a fume hood.

I know you have a lot of battery knowledge, that's why I asked if you
had any experience with these

snip
Which "smart, desulfating charger" did you use? Opinions vary on their
effectiveness. Pulsing makes sense from the circuit designer's
perspective because it cheaply forces current with higher voltage
while limiting current and heating, but I'm not so sure it does what
they claim inside the battery. The DC overvoltage desulfation method
I use can run away if the current isn't limited by either circuitry or
using a small solar panel as the source.

The CTEK MUS 4.3, nothing special. There are several very similar units.

https://www.amazon.com/CTEK-56-864-A...dp/B006G14FK8/

What I really like is that I have a cable attached to the bike so it is
easy to hook-up. The battery and connections are buried in the middle
of the bike. I can set it to charging and if I forget to remove it in an
hour or two it switches off more or less when complete. My other
trickle chargers just keep cooking until you remove them. I'm too much
of cheapskate to just leave it going all the time but that is one of its
supposed features.

I've seen it in its desulphating mode at times while charging the
motorcycle battery. Those batteries never last very long no matter how
I treat them...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:27:27 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
The price is very interesting, compared to $1000 for some of the
others on that page. How do you keep your regulator output from
exceeding 10A, or limit the under-hood temperature to 140F?

I wondered how they were overcoming some of the inherent troubles of
lithium batteries. The proper one for my motorcycle would be this
one:

https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-Phosp...dp/B00XWYH3AG/

I don't know what they are up to, it is suppose to be a direct drop
in
replacement for my bike. Motorcycles in general don't have very
strong
alternators. I have the specs, could look it up if you want...

snip
I was the battery tech at Segway and Zoll Medical, and once a
chemist
who experienced a Lithium Aluminum Hydride fire in a fume hood.

I know you have a lot of battery knowledge, that's why I asked if
you
had any experience with these

snip
Which "smart, desulfating charger" did you use? Opinions vary on
their
effectiveness. Pulsing makes sense from the circuit designer's
perspective because it cheaply forces current with higher voltage
while limiting current and heating, but I'm not so sure it does what
they claim inside the battery. The DC overvoltage desulfation
method
I use can run away if the current isn't limited by either circuitry
or
using a small solar panel as the source.

The CTEK MUS 4.3, nothing special. There are several very similar
units.

https://www.amazon.com/CTEK-56-864-A...dp/B006G14FK8/

What I really like is that I have a cable attached to the bike so it
is
easy to hook-up. The battery and connections are buried in the
middle
of the bike. I can set it to charging and if I forget to remove it
in an
hour or two it switches off more or less when complete. My other
trickle chargers just keep cooking until you remove them. I'm too
much
of cheapskate to just leave it going all the time but that is one of
its
supposed features.

I've seen it in its desulphating mode at times while charging the
motorcycle battery. Those batteries never last very long no matter
how
I treat them...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Radio amateurs have standardized on Anderson Powerpole connectors for
12VDC battery cabling.
http://www.westmountainradio.com/kb_...c.php?id=ST166

I used high temperature Silicone wire in the engine compartment, 12
gauge so I could also draw power from it as well as trickle charge
with the hood closed. The wire in the vehicle is short and I made an
extension from all the rest of the wire.

There are several models of inexpensive Volt + Amp and Volt + Amp +
Watt meters that can be added in line with Andersons so you can
actually see the charging current. I like this one for topping off
batteries because of its good current resolution.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IZTTAKO...ing=UTF8&psc=1

I have a 10A model on my modified charger and 100A ones for measuring
the draw of DC-AC inverters.
--jsw

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:27:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:46:53 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
my tractor has
had a series of cheap U1R batteries others had discarded.

These lithium batteries caught my eye last spring:

https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-Phosp...dp/B00O4FLQN2/

The price is very interesting, compared to $1000 for some of the
others on that page. How do you keep your regulator output from
exceeding 10A, or limit the under-hood temperature to 140F?


I've had pretty good luck with the lawn tractor battery but the
motorcycle battery has always been troublesome. Real lucky to get 5
years from one, usually less. Stored inside, water topped off with
distilled, regularly charged with a smart desulphating charger... If
one
of those lithium replacements would last around 10 years it would be
worth it.

You tried any of the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries yet?

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


I was the battery tech at Segway and Zoll Medical, and once a chemist
who experienced a Lithium Aluminum Hydride fire in a fume hood.

Are you quite a bit more wary of Li now?


Lithiums are great while they work, as long as you observe the many
restrictions on them. When they deteriorate there's no way I know to
salvage them. The ones I tested had a supposedly guaranteed lifetime
of at least 3 years but my experience has been that it varied from
less than one year to possibly as much as 15.

Talk about -iffy-!


Commercial Lithium packs have built-in supervisory circuits like this
to limit their charge and discharge voltages, balance the individual
cells and hopefully protect them from igniting:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slus039/slus039.pdf

Almost all of the new LiFePo4 batteries come with BMSes (Battery
Management System) built for that specific pack.


It's possible to use the batteries without a control circuit but you
need to watch them carefully. At Segway we charged individual
evaluation samples with either a model airplane charger or a voltage
and current controlled lab power supply. One battery isn't as bad as a
string of them since unlike other battery types they have no good
inherent way to divert excess current once fully charged, so without
an external balancing circuit an unequal cell may allow others to
overcharge before the pack reaches its "full" voltage.

At Segway is one thing. At home, how many people do you know who
either could or would manage them correctly? /rhetorical q
Batteries pretty much need an electronic nanny because we (most of us)
can't or won't monitor them properly.


The "Gas Gauge" circuit integrates and records charge and discharge
currents on the assumption that charging is 100% efficient. It needs
an initial calibration to determine the actual Coulomb capacity of the
pack, and recalibration as the pack ages. That's why a laptop may shut
off at 40% indicated remaining capacity.

Which "smart, desulfating charger" did you use? Opinions vary on their
effectiveness. Pulsing makes sense from the circuit designer's
perspective because it cheaply forces current with higher voltage
while limiting current and heating, but I'm not so sure it does what
they claim inside the battery. The DC overvoltage desulfation method
I use can run away if the current isn't limited by either circuitry or
using a small solar panel as the source.

I wonder how pulsing affects battery life and cycles.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:46:53 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:21:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:53:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


...My stainless needle
bearings in outdoor caster wheels have held up well.

That's cool. What's the weight on them?

They are under a lift platform that I use in the back yard. There
wasn't enough space to make them large enough to roll on dirt with a
load so they are stationary when lifting my snowblower etc. It's SO
much easier to work on small engines while standing up.

Oh? I thought you said it was under your solar array. /doubletake


The ball thrust bearing is for adding tracking to an HF 45W panel set.
It's the same size as 1-1/4" pipe, with clearance for 1" pipe to pass
through. The stainless needle bearings are on wheels of equipment
stored under cover on ground that may flood.

OK. I confused the two.


I bought the HF kit to experiment with, knowing it isn't large enough
to run more than a laptop. Over 5 years its output has degraded to
about 1.6A and the parallel undersized blocking diodes on the input
shorted and had to be replaced with one larger Schottky. Without the
diode the battery can feed back to the panel, creating a short-circuit
hazard. The digital power meter on my larger roof array also failed so
now the panels are on the list of connections I unplug before
thunderstorms.

I have an 80' redwood right behind my house, so it would likely
contain any lightning, but I think I'll put an arrestor on the solar
array, too. Not the 45W HF mini, but the 1kW I someday may get onto
the roof. The racking is in!


I mainly use it to keep vehicle batteries topped up, for which it
works well. The battery in my truck is 14 years old and my tractor has
had a series of cheap U1R batteries others had discarded. They need
frequent top-off charges to ward off sulfation, or whatever else
causes capacity to drop and automatic chargers to stop charging the
battery. My chargers are manual, home-made, and allow me to increase
the voltage until the "dead" battery accepts charge current again. I
decided not to make and sell them because they can easily destroy a
battery if misused or left unattended too long.

I hear that. Even with warnings, potential Darwin Awardees would
certainly be buying them and blowing things up, eh?


I keep track of starting battery condition with an HF carbon pile
tester by reading the current when the voltage needle is at the 10V
pass/fail step. Autozone measured the starting current the (warm)
truck actually draws with their hand-held tester. Although it needs
more current when cold it would be in the driveway where I can plug in
a charger.

Did you get the 100 or 500W model? Was it worth it? I used to have a
nice Sun battery tester with pile at work. 0-500W with a huge dial-up
knob and built-in VOM. Wish I had one now.


--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:27:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


At Segway is one thing. At home, how many people do you know who
either could or would manage them correctly? /rhetorical q
Batteries pretty much need an electronic nanny because we (most of
us)
can't or won't monitor them properly.


I've lost new AGM batteries to neglect too. Left them in the box and
forgot them for a couple of years.
-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:46:53 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:21:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
m...
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:53:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


...My stainless needle
bearings in outdoor caster wheels have held up well.

That's cool. What's the weight on them?

They are under a lift platform that I use in the back yard. There
wasn't enough space to make them large enough to roll on dirt with
a
load so they are stationary when lifting my snowblower etc. It's
SO
much easier to work on small engines while standing up.

Oh? I thought you said it was under your solar array.
/doubletake


The ball thrust bearing is for adding tracking to an HF 45W panel
set.
It's the same size as 1-1/4" pipe, with clearance for 1" pipe to
pass
through. The stainless needle bearings are on wheels of equipment
stored under cover on ground that may flood.

OK. I confused the two.


I bought the HF kit to experiment with, knowing it isn't large
enough
to run more than a laptop. Over 5 years its output has degraded to
about 1.6A and the parallel undersized blocking diodes on the input
shorted and had to be replaced with one larger Schottky. Without the
diode the battery can feed back to the panel, creating a
short-circuit
hazard. The digital power meter on my larger roof array also failed
so
now the panels are on the list of connections I unplug before
thunderstorms.

I have an 80' redwood right behind my house, so it would likely
contain any lightning, but I think I'll put an arrestor on the solar
array, too. Not the 45W HF mini, but the 1kW I someday may get onto
the roof. The racking is in!

My metal chimney is well within the cone of protection of the taller
TV mast which is grounded. I heard distant thunder and while I was
unplugging the antennas and camera on the mast there was a loud SNAP
from the unlit (summertime) wood stove which I think was a static
discharge. Soon a wire extended from the ground rod to the chimney.



I mainly use it to keep vehicle batteries topped up, for which it
works well. The battery in my truck is 14 years old and my tractor
has
had a series of cheap U1R batteries others had discarded. They need
frequent top-off charges to ward off sulfation, or whatever else
causes capacity to drop and automatic chargers to stop charging the
battery. My chargers are manual, home-made, and allow me to increase
the voltage until the "dead" battery accepts charge current again. I
decided not to make and sell them because they can easily destroy a
battery if misused or left unattended too long.

I hear that. Even with warnings, potential Darwin Awardees would
certainly be buying them and blowing things up, eh?


I keep track of starting battery condition with an HF carbon pile
tester by reading the current when the voltage needle is at the 10V
pass/fail step. Autozone measured the starting current the (warm)
truck actually draws with their hand-held tester. Although it needs
more current when cold it would be in the driveway where I can plug
in
a charger.

Did you get the 100 or 500W model? Was it worth it? I used to have
a
nice Sun battery tester with pile at work. 0-500W with a huge
dial-up
knob and built-in VOM. Wish I had one now.

500A. If it helps me save one battery or avoid one tow I'm even, two
and I'm ahead. A fixed-current load tester will show a bad battery if
I'm shopping but doesn't measure how much margin remains on the old
ones in my vehicles, or if my experimental charging improves them.

I had hoped to use it as a discharge test load but the current is
unstable at low settings and the carbon disk stack doesn't seem big
enough to dissipate much continuous power. I have enough power
resistors to run 25A at 28V continuously, or at least for the 1/2 hour
temperature rise test of my Variac + welding transformer charger.

--jsw

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:13:01 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:46:53 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:21:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
m...
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:53:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


...My stainless needle
bearings in outdoor caster wheels have held up well.

That's cool. What's the weight on them?

They are under a lift platform that I use in the back yard. There
wasn't enough space to make them large enough to roll on dirt with a
load so they are stationary when lifting my snowblower etc. It's SO
much easier to work on small engines while standing up.

Oh? I thought you said it was under your solar array. /doubletake


The ball thrust bearing is for adding tracking to an HF 45W panel set.
It's the same size as 1-1/4" pipe, with clearance for 1" pipe to pass
through. The stainless needle bearings are on wheels of equipment
stored under cover on ground that may flood.

OK. I confused the two.


I bought the HF kit to experiment with, knowing it isn't large enough
to run more than a laptop. Over 5 years its output has degraded to
about 1.6A and the parallel undersized blocking diodes on the input
shorted and had to be replaced with one larger Schottky. Without the
diode the battery can feed back to the panel, creating a short-circuit
hazard. The digital power meter on my larger roof array also failed so
now the panels are on the list of connections I unplug before
thunderstorms.

I have an 80' redwood right behind my house, so it would likely
contain any lightning, but I think I'll put an arrestor on the solar
array, too. Not the 45W HF mini, but the 1kW I someday may get onto
the roof. The racking is in!


I mainly use it to keep vehicle batteries topped up, for which it
works well. The battery in my truck is 14 years old and my tractor has
had a series of cheap U1R batteries others had discarded. They need
frequent top-off charges to ward off sulfation, or whatever else
causes capacity to drop and automatic chargers to stop charging the
battery. My chargers are manual, home-made, and allow me to increase
the voltage until the "dead" battery accepts charge current again. I
decided not to make and sell them because they can easily destroy a
battery if misused or left unattended too long.

I hear that. Even with warnings, potential Darwin Awardees would
certainly be buying them and blowing things up, eh?


I keep track of starting battery condition with an HF carbon pile
tester by reading the current when the voltage needle is at the 10V
pass/fail step. Autozone measured the starting current the (warm)
truck actually draws with their hand-held tester. Although it needs
more current when cold it would be in the driveway where I can plug in
a charger.

Did you get the 100 or 500W model? Was it worth it? I used to have a
nice Sun battery tester with pile at work. 0-500W with a huge dial-up
knob and built-in VOM. Wish I had one now.
The one I had was a 500 amp one - thats 6000 watts.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:13:01 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:46:53 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

.......

I keep track of starting battery condition with an HF carbon pile
tester by reading the current when the voltage needle is at the 10V
pass/fail step. Autozone measured the starting current the (warm)
truck actually draws with their hand-held tester. Although it needs
more current when cold it would be in the driveway where I can plug
in
a charger.

Did you get the 100 or 500W model? Was it worth it? I used to have
a
nice Sun battery tester with pile at work. 0-500W with a huge
dial-up
knob and built-in VOM. Wish I had one now.

The one I had was a 500 amp one - thats 6000 watts.

The HF carbon pile has a 15 second timer to warn you to grab the
reading and turn the current down. Since it's unstable at low current
/ light pressure I didn't attempt to determine how much power it could
handle continuously. My guess is less than 100W, from comparing the
disk stack to wirewound rheostats of similar size. The timer circuit
limits the voltage it could withstand.

The manual specifies:
"15 seconds per test with 1 minute cool down"
"3 tests in 5 minutes maximum"

500A is claimed to test a battery rated at up to 160 amp hours or 1000
cold cranking amps.

When the battery on my main vehicle was drained by leaving the hatch
ajar for a week I replaced it to avoid the risk of getting stuck
somewhere in frigid weather - right now it's 3F outside.

I traded in a junk battery and kept it and it's still good for 150A at
16 years old. The HF load tester is to help me squeeze more life from
batteries I don't depend on.
--jsw

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 8:07:33 AM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

I need an example for an article. Can anyone think of a modern product which uses plain bearings in a demanding application? I'm not talking about the extremes (like dental drills and steam turbines), but more common applications such as supporting lathe spindles and engine crankshafts. It used to be common to have plain bearings in these machines, and some were incredibly durable, but I haven't seen any in a new product for a long time. Are there any examples, or have they been entirely displaced by standardised ball and roller bearings?

Thanks!

Chris

see the "Very clever machinist, Keith Fenner." thread.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 21:52:16 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:27:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


At Segway is one thing. At home, how many people do you know who
either could or would manage them correctly? /rhetorical q
Batteries pretty much need an electronic nanny because we (most of
us)
can't or won't monitor them properly.

I've lost new AGM batteries to neglect too. Left them in the box and
forgot them for a couple of years.

I got lucky with the deep cycle battery for the HF setup when I
checked it 14 or so months later and it needed only a little bit of
water. Oops! I cleaned and gooped the battery terminals at that
time, too. The red battery protectant spray works well. My riding
mower battery had lots of corrosion problems until I sprayed the
terminals on it.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 22:47:52 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:46:53 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
-snip-
I bought the HF kit to experiment with, knowing it isn't large
enough
to run more than a laptop. Over 5 years its output has degraded to
about 1.6A and the parallel undersized blocking diodes on the input
shorted and had to be replaced with one larger Schottky. Without the
diode the battery can feed back to the panel, creating a
short-circuit
hazard. The digital power meter on my larger roof array also failed
so
now the panels are on the list of connections I unplug before
thunderstorms.

I have an 80' redwood right behind my house, so it would likely
contain any lightning, but I think I'll put an arrestor on the solar
array, too. Not the 45W HF mini, but the 1kW I someday may get onto
the roof. The racking is in!

My metal chimney is well within the cone of protection of the taller
TV mast which is grounded. I heard distant thunder and while I was
unplugging the antennas and camera on the mast there was a loud SNAP
from the unlit (summertime) wood stove which I think was a static
discharge. Soon a wire extended from the ground rod to the chimney.

I'll bet. Good call.


-snip-
Did you get the 100 or 500W model? Was it worth it? I used to have
a
nice Sun battery tester with pile at work. 0-500W with a huge
dial-up
knob and built-in VOM. Wish I had one now.

500A. If it helps me save one battery or avoid one tow I'm even, two
and I'm ahead. A fixed-current load tester will show a bad battery if
I'm shopping but doesn't measure how much margin remains on the old
ones in my vehicles, or if my experimental charging improves them.

I see your logic.


I had hoped to use it as a discharge test load but the current is
unstable at low settings and the carbon disk stack doesn't seem big
enough to dissipate much continuous power. I have enough power
resistors to run 25A at 28V continuously, or at least for the 1/2 hour
temperature rise test of my Variac + welding transformer charger.

Yeah, the old Sun was considerably more linear than what they're
putting out today, unless you spend $1,500 on a tester.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt