Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Question Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

I am little confused about these two methods for a sheet metal process. I thought the laser has more advantages than conventional punch press in sheet metal industry like precision cutting and faster etching .
This evening while searching for a better method , I read an article saying that CNC presses are far better than a typical KW CO2 laser.

One says that" "Punching has always been faster, but within the last 15 years lasers are rapidly catching up," Vining states. "Years ago lasers really couldn't compete with a punch because a punch could generate lots of round holes, slots, vents, louvers and other forms. Lasers were generally used for configurations that the punch couldn't do or for shapes that you wouldn't want to produce the costly punching tools for. Lasers have come a long way with their software and power increases. We utilize both our laser and punch for the best methods. This allows us to make a job the most economical way we can."

Another one prefer the laser for curves and irregular shapes ""If it has more common hole sizes that we have punches for, it's going to go to the punch," Vining says. "If it has more radii and curves and shapes to it than what the punch can accommodate, it has to go to the laser. "

This site says CNC punching is better than laser cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping in case of sheet metal. EMK 3510 CNC | Sheet Metal Fabrication - Bayview Metals Toronto

*Can handle prototypes to larger production runs
*Minimize costs in small to medium production as compared to laser cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping
*Easily implement Engineering Changes without large tooling modification costs
*Faster than laser cutting
*Suitable for a wide variety of materials

Which one do you guys prefer to work? What about the running costof both methods?

Last edited by Yourmaster : November 30th 16 at 05:49 AM
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 05:40:34 +0100, Yourmaster
wrote:


I am little confused about these two methods for a sheet metal process.
I thought the laser has more advantages than conventional punch press in
sheet metal industry like precision cutting and faster etching .
This evening while searching for a better method , I read an article
saying that CNC presses are far better than a typical KW CO2 laser.

One says that" "Punching has always been faster, but within the last 15
years lasers are rapidly catching up," Vining states. "Years ago lasers
really couldn't compete with a punch because a punch could generate lots
of round holes, slots, vents, louvers and other forms. Lasers were
generally used for configurations that the punch couldn't do or for
shapes that you wouldn't want to produce the costly punching tools for.
Lasers have come a long way with their software and power increases. We
utilize both our laser and punch for the best methods. This allows us to
make a job the most economical way we can."

Another one prefer the laser for curves and irregular shapes ""If it
has more common hole sizes that we have punches for, it's going to go to
the punch," Vining says. "If it has more radii and curves and shapes to
it than what the punch can accommodate, it has to go to the laser. "

This site says CNC punching is better than laser cutting, water jet,
and hard tooled stamping in case of sheet metal. 'EMK 3510 CNC | Sheet
Metal Fabrication - Bayview Metals Toronto'
(http://www.bayviewmetals.com/capabilities/cnc-punching/)

*Can handle prototypes to larger production runs
*Minimize costs in small to medium production as compared to laser
cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping
*Easily implement Engineering Changes without large tooling modification
costs
*Faster than laser cutting
*Suitable for a wide variety of materials

Which one do you guys prefer to work? What about the running costof
both methods?


Punch presses are dirt cheap to run. CNC punch presses are nearly as
dirt cheap to run.

Lasers on the other hand..can be moderately to very expensive to run.

Lasers require a ****load of gear just to generate enough light to
cut. It needs a gas media to blow away the metallic gases, to cool the
electronics and optics and so on and so forth. Most do NOT use "house
air"
CO2 is just one of the "assist gases" used with lasers. Nitrogen, Oxy,
etc etc are all used both in the cut..and in the cooling.

Waterjet...even more expensive, just in maint costs..then there is the
added media......



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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 12:17:09 AM UTC-5, Yourmaster wrote:
I am little confused about these two methods for a sheet metal process.
I thought the laser has more advantages than conventional punch press in
sheet metal industry like precision cutting and faster etching .
This evening while searching for a better method , I read an article
saying that CNC presses are far better than a typical KW CO2 laser.

One says that" "Punching has always been faster, but within the last 15
years lasers are rapidly catching up," Vining states. "Years ago lasers
really couldn't compete with a punch because a punch could generate lots
of round holes, slots, vents, louvers and other forms. Lasers were
generally used for configurations that the punch couldn't do or for
shapes that you wouldn't want to produce the costly punching tools for.
Lasers have come a long way with their software and power increases. We
utilize both our laser and punch for the best methods. This allows us to
make a job the most economical way we can."

Another one prefer the laser for curves and irregular shapes ""If it
has more common hole sizes that we have punches for, it's going to go to
the punch," Vining says. "If it has more radii and curves and shapes to
it than what the punch can accommodate, it has to go to the laser. "

This site says CNC punching is better than laser cutting, water jet,
and hard tooled stamping in case of sheet metal. 'EMK 3510 CNC | Sheet
Metal Fabrication - Bayview Metals Toronto'
(http://www.bayviewmetals.com/capabilities/cnc-punching/)

*Can handle prototypes to larger production runs
*Minimize costs in small to medium production as compared to laser
cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping
*Easily implement Engineering Changes without large tooling modification
costs
*Faster than laser cutting
*Suitable for a wide variety of materials

Which one do you guys prefer to work? What about the running costof
both methods?




--
Yourmaster


Gunner basically has it right, but it really depends on the kind of work you're going to do. If it's straight lines and round holes (or square holes), then a punch press is much faster and somewhat cheaper to operate -- but that depends on what kind of laser you'd be getting (fiber lasers cost more up front but operating cost is much less than for CO2). And that, in turn, depends on what you're cutting.

I wrote about a FAB 40 shop (IOW, top-ranked) a few months ago that has the latest automated punch presses, CO2 lasers, and fiber lasers. The owner of that shop discussed why he's still buying fancy punch presses when it seems like the whole fabricating world is going to lasers, and where he uses each.

Maybe you'll want to read the article and see what he has to say:

http://magazine.fsmdirect.com/2016/aug/d/#page7

--
Ed Huntress
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 05:40:34 +0100, Yourmaster
wrote:


I am little confused about these two methods for a sheet metal process.
I thought the laser has more advantages than conventional punch press in
sheet metal industry like precision cutting and faster etching .
This evening while searching for a better method , I read an article
saying that CNC presses are far better than a typical KW CO2 laser.

One says that" "Punching has always been faster, but within the last 15
years lasers are rapidly catching up," Vining states. "Years ago lasers
really couldn't compete with a punch because a punch could generate lots
of round holes, slots, vents, louvers and other forms. Lasers were
generally used for configurations that the punch couldn't do or for
shapes that you wouldn't want to produce the costly punching tools for.
Lasers have come a long way with their software and power increases. We
utilize both our laser and punch for the best methods. This allows us to
make a job the most economical way we can."

Another one prefer the laser for curves and irregular shapes ""If it
has more common hole sizes that we have punches for, it's going to go to
the punch," Vining says. "If it has more radii and curves and shapes to
it than what the punch can accommodate, it has to go to the laser. "

This site says CNC punching is better than laser cutting, water jet,
and hard tooled stamping in case of sheet metal. 'EMK 3510 CNC | Sheet
Metal Fabrication - Bayview Metals Toronto'
(http://www.bayviewmetals.com/capabilities/cnc-punching/)

*Can handle prototypes to larger production runs
*Minimize costs in small to medium production as compared to laser
cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping
*Easily implement Engineering Changes without large tooling modification
costs
*Faster than laser cutting
*Suitable for a wide variety of materials

Which one do you guys prefer to work? What about the running costof
both methods?


Punch presses are dirt cheap to run. CNC punch presses are nearly as
dirt cheap to run.

Lasers on the other hand..can be moderately to very expensive to run.

Lasers require a ****load of gear just to generate enough light to
cut. It needs a gas media to blow away the metallic gases, to cool the
electronics and optics and so on and so forth. Most do NOT use "house
air"
CO2 is just one of the "assist gases" used with lasers. Nitrogen, Oxy,
etc etc are all used both in the cut..and in the cooling.

Waterjet...even more expensive, just in maint costs..then there is the
added media......



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And only punches can do louvers, c'sinks, tapped holes, and other formed
features.
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

Gunner Asch on Tue, 29 Nov 2016 22:37:20 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

*Can handle prototypes to larger production runs
*Minimize costs in small to medium production as compared to laser
cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping
*Easily implement Engineering Changes without large tooling modification
costs
*Faster than laser cutting
*Suitable for a wide variety of materials

Which one do you guys prefer to work? What about the running costof
both methods?


Punch presses are dirt cheap to run. CNC punch presses are nearly as
dirt cheap to run.


Punch presses require punches. Those can get spendy to make and
replace. The time needed to make one needs to be added to any
"production time" when costing out a project.


Lasers on the other hand..can be moderately to very expensive to run.


But lasers do not need dies to make the holes. So there is that
savings. OTOH, how long does it take to program a hole like one the
punch press can knock out'?

Which is the issue: complexity of the hole, vs the number to
produce, and the total time to make up a run.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 05:40:34 +0100, Yourmaster
wrote:


I am little confused about these two methods for a sheet metal process.
I thought the laser has more advantages than conventional punch press in
sheet metal industry like precision cutting and faster etching .
This evening while searching for a better method , I read an article
saying that CNC presses are far better than a typical KW CO2 laser.

One says that" "Punching has always been faster, but within the last 15
years lasers are rapidly catching up," Vining states. "Years ago lasers
really couldn't compete with a punch because a punch could generate lots
of round holes, slots, vents, louvers and other forms. Lasers were
generally used for configurations that the punch couldn't do or for
shapes that you wouldn't want to produce the costly punching tools for.
Lasers have come a long way with their software and power increases. We
utilize both our laser and punch for the best methods. This allows us to
make a job the most economical way we can."

Another one prefer the laser for curves and irregular shapes ""If it
has more common hole sizes that we have punches for, it's going to go to
the punch," Vining says. "If it has more radii and curves and shapes to
it than what the punch can accommodate, it has to go to the laser. "

This site says CNC punching is better than laser cutting, water jet,
and hard tooled stamping in case of sheet metal. 'EMK 3510 CNC | Sheet
Metal Fabrication - Bayview Metals Toronto'
(http://www.bayviewmetals.com/capabilities/cnc-punching/)

*Can handle prototypes to larger production runs
*Minimize costs in small to medium production as compared to laser
cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping
*Easily implement Engineering Changes without large tooling modification
costs
*Faster than laser cutting
*Suitable for a wide variety of materials

Which one do you guys prefer to work? What about the running costof
both methods?


Punch presses are dirt cheap to run. CNC punch presses are nearly as
dirt cheap to run.

Lasers on the other hand..can be moderately to very expensive to run.

Lasers require a ****load of gear just to generate enough light to
cut. It needs a gas media to blow away the metallic gases, to cool the
electronics and optics and so on and so forth. Most do NOT use "house
air"
CO2 is just one of the "assist gases" used with lasers. Nitrogen, Oxy,
etc etc are all used both in the cut..and in the cooling.

Waterjet...even more expensive, just in maint costs..then there is the
added media......


I was just a company here that works with titanium sheet. The description
of their laser cutters sounded like a love story. There's no tooling cost,
and they can make prototypes or final products in just a couple days. This
fast turn around is how they stay in business.
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On 1/12/2016 3:13 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

But lasers do not need dies to make the holes. So there is that
savings. OTOH, how long does it take to program a hole like one the
punch press can knock out'?

Which is the issue: complexity of the hole, vs the number to
produce, and the total time to make up a run.


Having programmed both punch presses and lasers, I'd say overall the
laser was faster, and that was with software 25 years ago.
To nibble a window with a punch press requires selecting a punch that
will maintain better than 50% overlap per nibble. Laser doesn't have
that issue. I'm sure software is more sophisticated these days, but I'm
out of out of touch. Maybe punch selection is automated today?

Cluster punches will produce arrays of holes faster than a laser, but a
laser in most materials should be able to produce large cutouts faster.

Punch presses, as noted, can perform a wide variety of forming
operations. Which machine, depends upon the sort of work a shop is
doing. For a general sheetmetal shop having both offers the best of both
worlds.

Jon

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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Tue, 29 Nov 2016 22:37:20 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

*Can handle prototypes to larger production runs
*Minimize costs in small to medium production as compared to laser
cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping
*Easily implement Engineering Changes without large tooling modification
costs
*Faster than laser cutting
*Suitable for a wide variety of materials

Which one do you guys prefer to work? What about the running costof
both methods?


Punch presses are dirt cheap to run. CNC punch presses are nearly as
dirt cheap to run.


Punch presses require punches. Those can get spendy to make and
replace. The time needed to make one needs to be added to any
"production time" when costing out a project.



Has anyone on the group ever made a bolt driven chassis punch? I
want one for the common as dirt IEC 'C7' connector used for computer
power cords. They sell for around $600, which is out of the question.


--
Never **** off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...


Has anyone on the group ever made a bolt driven chassis punch? I
want one for the common as dirt IEC 'C7' connector used for computer
power cords. They sell for around $600, which is out of the
question.


The closest I've made is a bolt driven die set for repairing a tarp
shelter cover with 3/8" brass grommets. Hardening and tempering steel
to the right degree to cut metal is tricky, and grinding punches and
dies evenly a job for a surface grinder unless you have a good hand
and eye for a belt sander.

I used a D connector punch for a while on a job and didn't have good
luck with it because the tightening torque misaligned the punch and
die, despite the guide pins and oil on the screw. I wasn't the first
user.

Usually I grouped the connector cutouts onto a flat rectangular panel
that fit in the milling vise and hogged out an oversized clearance
hole for it in the formed chassis.

You could cut out the opening in a slightly larger piece of steel and
clamp it on as a filing guide.

--jsw


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On 30/11/16 04:40, Yourmaster wrote:
I am little confused about these two methods for a sheet metal process.
I thought the laser has more advantages than conventional punch press in
sheet metal industry like precision cutting and faster etching .
This evening while searching for a better method , I read an article
saying that CNC presses are far better than a typical KW CO2 laser.

One says that" "Punching has always been faster, but within the last 15
years lasers are rapidly catching up," Vining states. "Years ago lasers
really couldn't compete with a punch because a punch could generate lots
of round holes, slots, vents, louvers and other forms. Lasers were
generally used for configurations that the punch couldn't do or for
shapes that you wouldn't want to produce the costly punching tools for.
Lasers have come a long way with their software and power increases. We
utilize both our laser and punch for the best methods. This allows us to
make a job the most economical way we can."

Another one prefer the laser for curves and irregular shapes ""If it
has more common hole sizes that we have punches for, it's going to go to
the punch," Vining says. "If it has more radii and curves and shapes to
it than what the punch can accommodate, it has to go to the laser. "

This site says CNC punching is better than laser cutting, water jet,
and hard tooled stamping in case of sheet metal. 'EMK 3510 CNC | Sheet
Metal Fabrication - Bayview Metals Toronto'
(http://www.bayviewmetals.com/capabilities/cnc-punching/)

*Can handle prototypes to larger production runs
*Minimize costs in small to medium production as compared to laser
cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping
*Easily implement Engineering Changes without large tooling modification
costs
*Faster than laser cutting
*Suitable for a wide variety of materials

Which one do you guys prefer to work? What about the running costof
both methods?




A fabrication company I use recently sold their CNC punch press and
their older 3kW laser and bought a new 6kW laser for about £275k IIRC
which they are much happier with. They said there was little that the
punch press could do that the laser couldn't and those few items they
could do with an old manual press or farm out on the odd occasion it was
required. For them the laser rules over the punch press.


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 11:49:45 AM UTC-8, Michael Terrell wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:


Has anyone on the group ever made a bolt driven chassis punch? I
want one for the common as dirt IEC 'C7' connector used for computer
power cords. They sell for around $600, which is out of the question.


At that price, and that big a hole, you'd be well advised to use a hydraulic puller (about $100)
instead of wrench-on-screw. Off-the-shelf punches for double D and rectangle
shapes might work (depends on how much the connector's flange conceals).

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/hydraulic-hole-punch?

This IEC connector fits a rectangular hole, can be punched round and nibbled
(not ideal, but workable)
http://www.qualtekusa.com/Catalog/AC_Receptacles/pdfs/701wx204.pdf
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

I do not run either, but If you need to nibble a hole then the
advantage goes to the laser. For a one shot and done hole, advantage
punch.

Lasers have a cost per inch of cut, plus a cost per pierce.
Punches have a cost per punch.

For small standard size holes a punch is most likely best, when holes
get big (excess tonage) or odd shaped (expensive tooling) then use the
laser.

They make punch presses now with a laser built in, punch the easy
holes laser cut the rest.

Randy


On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 05:22:46 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 1/12/2016 3:13 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

But lasers do not need dies to make the holes. So there is that
savings. OTOH, how long does it take to program a hole like one the
punch press can knock out'?

Which is the issue: complexity of the hole, vs the number to
produce, and the total time to make up a run.


Having programmed both punch presses and lasers, I'd say overall the
laser was faster, and that was with software 25 years ago.
To nibble a window with a punch press requires selecting a punch that
will maintain better than 50% overlap per nibble. Laser doesn't have
that issue. I'm sure software is more sophisticated these days, but I'm
out of out of touch. Maybe punch selection is automated today?

Cluster punches will produce arrays of holes faster than a laser, but a
laser in most materials should be able to produce large cutouts faster.

Punch presses, as noted, can perform a wide variety of forming
operations. Which machine, depends upon the sort of work a shop is
doing. For a general sheetmetal shop having both offers the best of both
worlds.

Jon

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Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

whit3rd wrote:
On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 11:49:45 AM UTC-8, Michael Terrell wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:


Has anyone on the group ever made a bolt driven chassis punch? I
want one for the common as dirt IEC 'C7' connector used for computer
power cords. They sell for around $600, which is out of the question.


At that price, and that big a hole, you'd be well advised to use a hydraulic puller (about $100)
instead of wrench-on-screw. Off-the-shelf punches for double D and rectangle
shapes might work (depends on how much the connector's flange conceals).

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/hydraulic-hole-punch?

This IEC connector fits a rectangular hole, can be punched round and nibbled
(not ideal, but workable)
http://www.qualtekusa.com/Catalog/AC_Receptacles/pdfs/701wx204.pdf



I have cut dozens, if not over 100 with an Audel hand nibbler. I've
worn out three of them in the last 45 years, plus a half dozen of the
crap ones that Radio Shack used to sell.

I had the Greenlee 731R rectangular relay punch for P&B relays. It, and
over two dozen other Greenlee punches were stolen.


--
Never **** off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
...
I have cut dozens, if not over 100 with an Audel hand nibbler.
I've worn out three of them in the last 45 years, plus a half dozen
of the crap ones that Radio Shack used to sell.


When an Adel nibbler starts to dull I remove the compressed washer,
spring and stripper plate, disassemble it and grind the cutting edges.
I leave the stripper off when reassembling it so it doesn't mar the
surface around the cut and gets into tighter spaces.

They are slightly harder to use because the stripper spring helps
retract the punch if it isn't oiled, such as for modifying assembled
aluminum chassis boxes I can't easily wash.

http://www.adelnibbler.com/Step_by_S...el_Nibbler.htm

--jsw


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
...
I have cut dozens, if not over 100 with an Audel hand nibbler.
I've worn out three of them in the last 45 years, plus a half dozen
of the crap ones that Radio Shack used to sell.


When an Adel nibbler starts to dull I remove the compressed washer,
spring and stripper plate, disassemble it and grind the cutting edges.
I leave the stripper off when reassembling it so it doesn't mar the
surface around the cut and gets into tighter spaces.

They are slightly harder to use because the stripper spring helps
retract the punch if it isn't oiled, such as for modifying assembled
aluminum chassis boxes I can't easily wash.

http://www.adelnibbler.com/Step_by_S...el_Nibbler.htm



The frames broke on these, near the die. I wore out a lot of
punches, before the frame died of metal fatigue. I used to do a lot of
prototyping, with hand tools. Trimming fiberglass circuit boards to fit
into a case was the worst for wearing out the tool.

--
Never **** off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news
Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
The frames broke on these, near the die. I wore out a lot of
punches, before the frame died of metal fatigue. I used to do a lot
of prototyping, with hand tools. Trimming fiberglass circuit boards
to fit into a case was the worst for wearing out the tool.


I've worked at a few places, notably Mitre, that had good facilities
for both electronic and mechanical prototyping but that wasn't the
case at smaller startups developing some new idea on a tight budget.
I've nibbled, filed and sanded a lot of circuit boards to size
including the mechanical-fit models for the Segway balance sensor
assembly. At one place when the Dremel died I cobbled up a pump drill
to finish a circuit board. Unlike a bow drill it applied no side force
to the fragile carbide bit.

http://cart.occpaleo.com/stonetippedpumpdrill.aspx

For that price they could at least have found a prettier smoothed
river stone for the weight.


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 07:17:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news
Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
The frames broke on these, near the die. I wore out a lot of
punches, before the frame died of metal fatigue. I used to do a lot
of prototyping, with hand tools. Trimming fiberglass circuit boards
to fit into a case was the worst for wearing out the tool.


I've worked at a few places, notably Mitre, that had good facilities
for both electronic and mechanical prototyping but that wasn't the
case at smaller startups developing some new idea on a tight budget.
I've nibbled, filed and sanded a lot of circuit boards to size
including the mechanical-fit models for the Segway balance sensor
assembly. At one place when the Dremel died I cobbled up a pump drill
to finish a circuit board. Unlike a bow drill it applied no side force
to the fragile carbide bit.

http://cart.occpaleo.com/stonetippedpumpdrill.aspx

For that price they could at least have found a prettier smoothed
river stone for the weight.


Do those rely on the inertial force of the spinning stone to work?
Wind 'em up, push down, and they spin until wound the other way.
Rinse, repeat?


--
We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is
no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected.
--Henry David Thoreau
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On Fri, 02 Dec 2016 05:07:55 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 07:17:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news
Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
The frames broke on these, near the die. I wore out a lot of
punches, before the frame died of metal fatigue. I used to do a lot
of prototyping, with hand tools. Trimming fiberglass circuit boards
to fit into a case was the worst for wearing out the tool.


I've worked at a few places, notably Mitre, that had good facilities
for both electronic and mechanical prototyping but that wasn't the
case at smaller startups developing some new idea on a tight budget.
I've nibbled, filed and sanded a lot of circuit boards to size
including the mechanical-fit models for the Segway balance sensor
assembly. At one place when the Dremel died I cobbled up a pump drill
to finish a circuit board. Unlike a bow drill it applied no side force
to the fragile carbide bit.

http://cart.occpaleo.com/stonetippedpumpdrill.aspx

For that price they could at least have found a prettier smoothed
river stone for the weight.


Do those rely on the inertial force


Momentum. (It's early.)


of the spinning stone to work?
Wind 'em up, push down, and they spin until wound the other way.
Rinse, repeat?


--
We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is
no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected.
--Henry David Thoreau
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 07:17:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news
Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
The frames broke on these, near the die. I wore out a lot of
punches, before the frame died of metal fatigue. I used to do a
lot
of prototyping, with hand tools. Trimming fiberglass circuit
boards
to fit into a case was the worst for wearing out the tool.


I've worked at a few places, notably Mitre, that had good facilities
for both electronic and mechanical prototyping but that wasn't the
case at smaller startups developing some new idea on a tight budget.
I've nibbled, filed and sanded a lot of circuit boards to size
including the mechanical-fit models for the Segway balance sensor
assembly. At one place when the Dremel died I cobbled up a pump
drill
to finish a circuit board. Unlike a bow drill it applied no side
force
to the fragile carbide bit.

http://cart.occpaleo.com/stonetippedpumpdrill.aspx

For that price they could at least have found a prettier smoothed
river stone for the weight.


Do those rely on the inertial force of the spinning stone to work?
Wind 'em up, push down, and they spin until wound the other way.
Rinse, repeat?


Yep, push down, let it rise, push down...., while steadying the top
end with the other hand. It's less awkward and tiring than a bow
drill. Since it spins both ways a blunt spear point with flats on the
edges works well for the drill bit, and is easy to resharpen. You
could drill your first counterweight with a bow drill that doesn't
need one.

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/...-machines.html

When I was little we moved into an 1830 house that had a chest of
those old "cordless" tools, which I used until I was old enough for
power tools. The tricky part was learning how to keep them sharp.

--jsw


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news
Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
The frames broke on these, near the die. I wore out a lot of
punches, before the frame died of metal fatigue. I used to do a lot
of prototyping, with hand tools. Trimming fiberglass circuit boards
to fit into a case was the worst for wearing out the tool.


I've worked at a few places, notably Mitre, that had good facilities
for both electronic and mechanical prototyping but that wasn't the
case at smaller startups developing some new idea on a tight budget.
I've nibbled, filed and sanded a lot of circuit boards to size
including the mechanical-fit models for the Segway balance sensor
assembly. At one place when the Dremel died I cobbled up a pump drill
to finish a circuit board. Unlike a bow drill it applied no side force
to the fragile carbide bit.

http://cart.occpaleo.com/stonetippedpumpdrill.aspx

For that price they could at least have found a prettier smoothed
river stone for the weight.



Just make one...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEl-Y1NvBVI

This guy has some unique ways to have "fun"....

--
Steve W.


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:02:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 07:17:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
The frames broke on these, near the die. I wore out a lot of
punches, before the frame died of metal fatigue. I used to do a
lot
of prototyping, with hand tools. Trimming fiberglass circuit
boards
to fit into a case was the worst for wearing out the tool.

I've worked at a few places, notably Mitre, that had good facilities
for both electronic and mechanical prototyping but that wasn't the
case at smaller startups developing some new idea on a tight budget.
I've nibbled, filed and sanded a lot of circuit boards to size
including the mechanical-fit models for the Segway balance sensor
assembly. At one place when the Dremel died I cobbled up a pump
drill
to finish a circuit board. Unlike a bow drill it applied no side
force
to the fragile carbide bit.

http://cart.occpaleo.com/stonetippedpumpdrill.aspx

For that price they could at least have found a prettier smoothed
river stone for the weight.


Do those rely on the inertial force of the spinning stone to work?
Wind 'em up, push down, and they spin until wound the other way.
Rinse, repeat?


Yep, push down, let it rise, push down...., while steadying the top
end with the other hand. It's less awkward and tiring than a bow
drill. Since it spins both ways a blunt spear point with flats on the
edges works well for the drill bit, and is easy to resharpen. You
could drill your first counterweight with a bow drill that doesn't
need one.


I wondered about the bit end. Dual flats, eh? Spoon bits are
interestingly shape, too.


http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/...-machines.html


Cool article.


When I was little we moved into an 1830 house that had a chest of
those old "cordless" tools, which I used until I was old enough for
power tools. The tricky part was learning how to keep them sharp.


Ah, Eric Sloane: a great author with a bevy of very good books under
his wing. I have a copy of his _A Reverence For Wood_ and it's
marvelous. George Sturt wrote _The Wheelwright's Shop_, which is also
an excellent and detailed stroll through yesteryear.

As a Neanderthal wooddorker, I have either used, and/or made, dozens
and dozens of old tools like that, but never a pump drill. I made
fire with a bow drill just once, then immediately declared the end of
my enthusiasm for them. They're a lot of work. Those pipe augers look
like a whole lot more of the same. Ugh! Breast drills are a joy to
use, compared to pumps, bows, braces, Yankees, and little egg-beaters.
Ditto post drills.

And now, with metal, I'm finding much more ease with a drill press.
Who'd have guessed? A mill is a pain to set up, comparatively, but is
sure is accurate. Having come from a woodworking past, my time with
Glenn in his metalworking shop was a real eye opener on most fronts.
That's why I'm he to continue learning with all you good teachers.

--
We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is
no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected.
--Henry David Thoreau
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:02:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Yep, push down, let it rise, push down...., while steadying the top
end with the other hand. It's less awkward and tiring than a bow
drill. Since it spins both ways a blunt spear point with flats on
the
edges works well for the drill bit, and is easy to resharpen. You
could drill your first counterweight with a bow drill that doesn't
need one.


I wondered about the bit end. Dual flats, eh? Spoon bits are
interestingly shape, too.


Like smaller spade bits. Reducing the rake angle decreases the depth
of cut and the power absorbed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_bit
"The twist drill bit was invented by Steven A. Morse of East
Bridgewater, Massachusetts in 1861.The original method of manufacture
was to cut two grooves in opposite sides of a round bar, then to twist
the bar (giving the tool its name) to produce the helical flutes.
Nowadays, the drill bit is usually made by rotating the bar while
moving it past a grinding wheel to cut the flutes in the same manner
as cutting helical gears."

http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/Mil...ed-States.ashx
See Fig. 19. "English and American Tool Builders" claims on page 196
that the first one (Fig 16) was made to machine twist drills. The
rotary index head is geared to the table feed and the table swivels on
its circular base, allowing the mill to cut a spiral groove as the
slowly rotating work passes under the cutter. See fig 29.

The text states but the engraving doesn't clearly show that the table
of Fig 16 swivels.

Here's an indexing head like Fig 19's by itself, minus the table feed
connection:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Divi...ype-BS-0/G1053

As a Neanderthal wooddorker, I have either used, and/or made, dozens
and dozens of old tools like that, but never a pump drill. I made
fire with a bow drill just once, then immediately declared the end
of
my enthusiasm for them. They're a lot of work. Those pipe augers
look
like a whole lot more of the same. Ugh! Breast drills are a joy to
use, compared to pumps, bows, braces, Yankees, and little
egg-beaters.
Ditto post drills.


And now, with metal, I'm finding much more ease with a drill press.
Who'd have guessed? A mill is a pain to set up, comparatively, but
is
sure is accurate. Having come from a woodworking past, my time with
Glenn in his metalworking shop was a real eye opener on most fronts.
That's why I'm he to continue learning with all you good
teachers.


I normally leave the mill set up for drilling and use the tops of the
vise jaws as the table.

--jsw


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On 2016-12-03, Jim Wilkins wrote:

[ ... ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_bit
"The twist drill bit was invented by Steven A. Morse of East
Bridgewater, Massachusetts in 1861.The original method of manufacture
was to cut two grooves in opposite sides of a round bar, then to twist
the bar (giving the tool its name) to produce the helical flutes.


FWIW As a kid, I needed a small drill bit and had no money, so what
I did was to file a nail flat on both sides, then grip the tip
in a vise and turn the outer end to twist the flat and form
flutes. After that, a bit of filing to give a little clearance
on the tip and it worked well enough -- at least for wood.
Nails don't harden much.

And I am amazed that the electric drill (old and very used) that
I had did not kill me. I often used it outdoors, and barefoot.
It had the old two-pin plug, and depending on which way around
it was connected, I either got a tingle when the drill was
switched on or when it was switched off.

The only thing that probably saved me was that this was South
Texas -- very dry sand, not moist soil.

Nowadays, the drill bit is usually made by rotating the bar while
moving it past a grinding wheel to cut the flutes in the same manner
as cutting helical gears."


Yep. Universal mill (swivel table) and the geared index head
which you mentioned below and I snipped. I think that the term
"Universal mill" was not mentioned, but the rest was.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2016-12-03, Jim Wilkins wrote:

[ ... ]

Yep. Universal mill (swivel table) and the geared index head
which you mentioned below and I snipped. I think that the term
"Universal mill" was not mentioned, but the rest was.


A modern vertical mill can cut a spiral (helix) without needing a
swiveling table by tilting the head sideways.

--jsw


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 08:55:41 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:02:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Yep, push down, let it rise, push down...., while steadying the top
end with the other hand. It's less awkward and tiring than a bow
drill. Since it spins both ways a blunt spear point with flats on
the
edges works well for the drill bit, and is easy to resharpen. You
could drill your first counterweight with a bow drill that doesn't
need one.


I wondered about the bit end. Dual flats, eh? Spoon bits are
interestingly shape, too.


Like smaller spade bits. Reducing the rake angle decreases the depth
of cut and the power absorbed.


Yeah, I see how that would be self-limiting.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_bit
"The twist drill bit was invented by Steven A. Morse of East
Bridgewater, Massachusetts in 1861.The original method of manufacture
was to cut two grooves in opposite sides of a round bar, then to twist
the bar (giving the tool its name) to produce the helical flutes.
Nowadays, the drill bit is usually made by rotating the bar while
moving it past a grinding wheel to cut the flutes in the same manner
as cutting helical gears."


Funny you should mention that.
http://diversifycomm.com/listenup/19...seDrillbit.jpg
This happened with a powerful B&D 3/8" VSR hand-drilling through an 18
or 20ga piece of sheetmetal. It surprised me.

And I just remembered to replace the little gimlet set which was
stolen. They're very handy camping/on a hike, and well worth the
money. http://tinyurl.com/jn7tuk7

The only thing on that page which I don't have and use is the mag core
drill, but I have some large core bits, toothed and diamond.


http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/Mil...ed-States.ashx
See Fig. 19. "English and American Tool Builders" claims on page 196
that the first one (Fig 16) was made to machine twist drills. The
rotary index head is geared to the table feed and the table swivels on
its circular base, allowing the mill to cut a spiral groove as the
slowly rotating work passes under the cutter. See fig 29.

The text states but the engraving doesn't clearly show that the table
of Fig 16 swivels.


No, but you can see it in fig 29. Different machine, tho.


Here's an indexing head like Fig 19's by itself, minus the table feed
connection:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Divi...ype-BS-0/G1053



All you need are a couple of power feeds and you, too, can grind your
own billdrits!


As a Neanderthal wooddorker, I have either used, and/or made, dozens
and dozens of old tools like that, but never a pump drill. I made
fire with a bow drill just once, then immediately declared the end
of
my enthusiasm for them. They're a lot of work. Those pipe augers
look
like a whole lot more of the same. Ugh! Breast drills are a joy to
use, compared to pumps, bows, braces, Yankees, and little
egg-beaters.
Ditto post drills.


And now, with metal, I'm finding much more ease with a drill press.
Who'd have guessed? A mill is a pain to set up, comparatively, but
is
sure is accurate. Having come from a woodworking past, my time with
Glenn in his metalworking shop was a real eye opener on most fronts.
That's why I'm he to continue learning with all you good
teachers.


I normally leave the mill set up for drilling and use the tops of the
vise jaws as the table.


Whatever works for you.

--
We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is
no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected.
--Henry David Thoreau


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 08:55:41 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Here's an indexing head like Fig 19's by itself, minus the table
feed
connection:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Divi...ype-BS-0/G1053



All you need are a couple of power feeds and you, too, can grind
your
own billdrits!


I bought it for cutting gears after fussing with a poorly made no-name
import rotary table.

I haven't needed the BS-0, and if owning it means I'll never break
another irreplaceable old gear then its cost was good insurance.

Maybe someday I'll use it to build this:
http://www.agelessengines.com/9cyl.htm

--jsw


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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On 2016-12-04, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2016-12-03, Jim Wilkins wrote:

[ ... ]

Yep. Universal mill (swivel table) and the geared index head
which you mentioned below and I snipped. I think that the term
"Universal mill" was not mentioned, but the rest was.


A modern vertical mill can cut a spiral (helix) without needing a
swiveling table by tilting the head sideways.


O.K. Thanks. I had not thought of that.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 19:45:30 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 08:55:41 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Here's an indexing head like Fig 19's by itself, minus the table
feed
connection:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Divi...ype-BS-0/G1053



All you need are a couple of power feeds and you, too, can grind
your
own billdrits!


I bought it for cutting gears after fussing with a poorly made no-name
import rotary table.

I haven't needed the BS-0, and if owning it means I'll never break
another irreplaceable old gear then its cost was good insurance.


Ayup. Sometimes the purchase is good enough insurance against Murphy.


Maybe someday I'll use it to build this:
http://www.agelessengines.com/9cyl.htm


That looks like a retirement project to me.

--
We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is
no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected.
--Henry David Thoreau
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Default Which one is better? PUNCH PRESS VS LASER

On 11/29/2016 10:37 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 05:40:34 +0100, Yourmaster
wrote:


I am little confused about these two methods for a sheet metal process.
I thought the laser has more advantages than conventional punch press in
sheet metal industry like precision cutting and faster etching .
This evening while searching for a better method , I read an article
saying that CNC presses are far better than a typical KW CO2 laser.

One says that" "Punching has always been faster, but within the last 15
years lasers are rapidly catching up," Vining states. "Years ago lasers
really couldn't compete with a punch because a punch could generate lots
of round holes, slots, vents, louvers and other forms. Lasers were
generally used for configurations that the punch couldn't do or for
shapes that you wouldn't want to produce the costly punching tools for.
Lasers have come a long way with their software and power increases. We
utilize both our laser and punch for the best methods. This allows us to
make a job the most economical way we can."

Another one prefer the laser for curves and irregular shapes ""If it
has more common hole sizes that we have punches for, it's going to go to
the punch," Vining says. "If it has more radii and curves and shapes to
it than what the punch can accommodate, it has to go to the laser. "

This site says CNC punching is better than laser cutting, water jet,
and hard tooled stamping in case of sheet metal. 'EMK 3510 CNC | Sheet
Metal Fabrication - Bayview Metals Toronto'
(http://www.bayviewmetals.com/capabilities/cnc-punching/)

*Can handle prototypes to larger production runs
*Minimize costs in small to medium production as compared to laser
cutting, water jet, and hard tooled stamping
*Easily implement Engineering Changes without large tooling modification
costs
*Faster than laser cutting
*Suitable for a wide variety of materials

Which one do you guys prefer to work? What about the running costof
both methods?


Punch presses are dirt cheap to run. CNC punch presses are nearly as
dirt cheap to run.

Lasers on the other hand..can be moderately to very expensive to run.

Lasers require a ****load of gear just to generate enough light to
cut.


You don't know a thing about lasers.

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