Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk
bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the
box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed
what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on
each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt
sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I
can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead
and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the
HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end
off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so.

Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a
time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped
mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to
me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end
with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and
hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe
bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or
punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is
is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it
the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground
and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough?

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few
pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for.



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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:03:45 -0700, Bob La Londe wrote:

I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk
junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking
thru the box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide
when I noticed what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It
had the undercut on each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I
walked it over to the belt sander and knocked the rust off. A name
appeared on the side of it. I can't recognize the name, but a name
appeared none the less. I went ahead and ground one end to a nice
conservative right hand tool and put it in the HSS bits drawer for my
big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end off, but it took
some work to grind so I don't think so.

Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at
a time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide
tipped mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest
all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and
a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I
grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and
then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch.
They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be
the same size on all of it. So... is is all this square stock just a
different shape of blank HSS bit or is it the keystock it looks like to
me? If it is just keystock can it be ground and used for lathe bits in
a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough?

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a
few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for.


I've got an old Unimat lathe with bits that look like they're made out of
keystock, but act like they're made out of HSS.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
news
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a
small lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped
junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was
poking thru the box the other day looking for one of those pieces of
carbide when I noticed what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit
(unground). It had the undercut on each end that comes on a lot of
lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt sander and knocked the
rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I can't recognize the
name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead and ground one
end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the HSS bits
drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end
off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so.

Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice
at a time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the
carbide tipped mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits.
The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly
rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges.
Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of
it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it
with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch
mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So...
is is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit
or is it the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock
can it be ground and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be
not quite hard enough?

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling
and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have
inserts for.


Some of the older high-performance tool steels like Tantung appear to
be cast or forged.
--jsw



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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:03:45 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk
bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the
box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed
what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on
each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt
sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I
can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead
and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the
HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end
off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so.

Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a
time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped
mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to
me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end
with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and
hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe
bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or
punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is
is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it
the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground
and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough?

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few
pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for.

Key stock is normally just mild steel. A file should tell you the
difference.

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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 6:03:56 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk
bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the
box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed
what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on
each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt
sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I
can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead
and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the
HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end
off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so.

Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a
time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped
mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to
me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end
with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and
hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe
bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or
punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is
is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it
the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground
and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough?

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few
pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for.


Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it and see how it performs.

High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more (M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called "high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least.

If you have some hard steel that's not HSS, you can do some cutting with it at low speeds. If it's plain carbon, it ought to take 450 deg. F. That's what was used before we had HSS. My old friend at American Machinist used music wire for cutting tools on his Unimat. That's pretty hard, but it's plain carbon steel.

--
Ed Huntress


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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?


wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 6:03:56 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk
bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru
the
box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I
noticed
what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut
on
each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the
belt
sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I
can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead
and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in
the
HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end
off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so.

Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a
time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped
mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked
to
me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off
end
with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch
and
hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that
lathe
bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or
punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So...
is
is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it
the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground
and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough?

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a
few
pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for.


Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it and see
how it performs.

High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a
tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more (M4,
M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering temperature without
permanently softening it. That's why it's called "high-speed." You can run
the cutting speed up until it just barely glows red -- in a fairly dark
room, at least.

If you have some hard steel that's not HSS, you can do some cutting with it
at low speeds. If it's plain carbon, it ought to take 450 deg. F. That's
what was used before we had HSS. My old friend at American Machinist used
music wire for cutting tools on his Unimat. That's pretty hard, but it's
plain carbon steel.

--
Ed Huntress

Ye Olde spark test should give you an idea of what you have.

Best Regards
Tom.


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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 6:03:56 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk
bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the
box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed
what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on
each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt
sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I
can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead
and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the
HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end
off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so.

Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a
time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped
mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to
me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end
with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and
hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe
bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or
punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is
is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it
the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground
and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough?

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few
pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for.


Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it and see how it performs.

High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more (M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called "high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least.

If you have some hard steel that's not HSS, you can do some cutting with it at low speeds. If it's plain carbon, it ought to take 450 deg. F. That's what was used before we had HSS. My old friend at American Machinist used music wire for cutting tools on his Unimat. That's pretty hard, but it's plain carbon steel.


We often made boring bars for one off jobs from "drill rod". Takes
very little time to forge and temper grind it to shape. Even keeping
the cutting speed down to carbon steel speeds it was still a quick way
to get a job done :-)
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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:03:45 -0700
"Bob La Londe" wrote:

snip
The rest all looked to
me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end
with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and
hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe
bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or
punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it.


Maybe try bending a piece. HSS doesn't bend very well (snap!) and most
tool steels don't either (shrug).

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 11:55:10 AM UTC-5, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:03:45 -0700
"Bob La Londe" wrote:

snip
The rest all looked to
me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end
with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and
hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe
bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or
punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it.


Maybe try bending a piece. HSS doesn't bend very well (snap!) and most
tool steels don't either (shrug).


If you meant that in the onomatopoeic sense, and if it shrugs, it probably won't cut very well. d8-)


--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


Happy Thanksgiving, Leon and all.

--
Ed Huntress



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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On 2016-11-24, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 6:03:56 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk
bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock.


[ ... ]

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few
pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for.


Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it
and see how it performs.


Is it even *carbon* steel? I think that what I have is just
plain mild steel -- not enough carbon to harden. (I've never tried,
since I don't see any benefit to hardening a key.)

High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a
tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more
(M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering
temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called
"high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely
glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least.


Also -- I don't think that I have ever seen HSS rust. I guess
that it is possible, but uncommon.

If you have some hard steel that's not HSS, you can do some cutting
with it at low speeds. If it's plain carbon, it ought to take 450 deg.
F. That's what was used before we had HSS. My old friend at American
Machinist used music wire for cutting tools on his Unimat. That's pretty
hard, but it's plain carbon steel.


Compare the previously mentioned (and likely now snipped)
automatic center punch test -- before and after a heat and quench cycle
to see whether it does harden at all.

We often made boring bars for one off jobs from "drill rod". Takes
very little time to forge and temper grind it to shape. Even keeping
the cutting speed down to carbon steel speeds it was still a quick way
to get a job done :-)


Sure -- drill rod is a relatively high carbon steel -- made to
be hardened. Three common flavors -- water hardening "O1" (quench in
brine, not plain water, I believe), Oil hardening "O1" (quench in oil),
and air hardening "A2" and "D2" (just let it sit in air until it cools.)

For most purposes, they all need to be tempered so they are not
*too* brittle beofre use.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 8:49:50 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-24, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 6:03:56 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk
bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock.


[ ... ]

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few
pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for.


Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it
and see how it performs.


Is it even *carbon* steel? I think that what I have is just
plain mild steel -- not enough carbon to harden. (I've never tried,
since I don't see any benefit to hardening a key.)


Plain "mild steel" is carbon steel. A lot of jargon common terms confuse these things. Even the mildest steel contains carbon, at least 0.08 %. The series starts with 1008, which was once used for stamped car-body parts.

1008 won't harden noticeably. When you get up to 1020 (0.2% carbon), it will work-harden a bit but barely quench-harden. Quench-hardening starts at around 1040, but even that doesn't harden much.

In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090. 'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo hardness tester, anyway.

Keystock comes in a variety of materials but the common ones are 1018 and 1045.


High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a
tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more
(M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering
temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called
"high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely
glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least.


Also -- I don't think that I have ever seen HSS rust. I guess
that it is possible, but uncommon.


It is somewhat rust-resistant, but it will rust.


If you have some hard steel that's not HSS, you can do some cutting
with it at low speeds. If it's plain carbon, it ought to take 450 deg.
F. That's what was used before we had HSS. My old friend at American
Machinist used music wire for cutting tools on his Unimat. That's pretty
hard, but it's plain carbon steel.


Compare the previously mentioned (and likely now snipped)
automatic center punch test -- before and after a heat and quench cycle
to see whether it does harden at all.

We often made boring bars for one off jobs from "drill rod". Takes
very little time to forge and temper grind it to shape. Even keeping
the cutting speed down to carbon steel speeds it was still a quick way
to get a job done :-)


Sure -- drill rod is a relatively high carbon steel -- made to
be hardened. Three common flavors -- water hardening "O1" (quench in
brine, not plain water, I believe), Oil hardening "O1" (quench in oil),
and air hardening "A2" and "D2" (just let it sit in air until it cools.)

For most purposes, they all need to be tempered so they are not
*too* brittle beofre use.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---




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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On 2016-11-25, wrote:
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 8:49:50 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-24, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

[ ... ]

Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it
and see how it performs.


Is it even *carbon* steel? I think that what I have is just
plain mild steel -- not enough carbon to harden. (I've never tried,
since I don't see any benefit to hardening a key.)


Plain "mild steel" is carbon steel. A lot of jargon common terms
confuse these things. Even the mildest steel contains carbon, at least
0.08 %. The series starts with 1008, which was once used for stamped
car-body parts.


O.K. Yes, pretty mild steel as they go. :-)

1008 won't harden noticeably. When you get up to 1020 (0.2% carbon),
it will work-harden a bit but barely quench-harden. Quench-hardening
starts at around 1040, but even that doesn't harden much.


O.K.

In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher
carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way
carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but
music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high
hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090.
'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo
hardness tester, anyway.


I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter,
and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with
carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the
cut occurs. :-)

Keystock comes in a variety of materials but the common ones are 1018 and 1045.


O.K. What I have is likely the 1018, based on the feel filing
it.

High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a
tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more
(M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering
temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called
"high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely
glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least.


Also -- I don't think that I have ever seen HSS rust. I guess
that it is possible, but uncommon.


It is somewhat rust-resistant, but it will rust.


O.K. Pretty much I guess I haven't exposed it to nasty
environments. :-)

Thanks for the additional information.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-25, wrote:
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 8:49:50 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-24, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

[ ... ]

Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it
and see how it performs.

Is it even *carbon* steel? I think that what I have is just
plain mild steel -- not enough carbon to harden. (I've never tried,
since I don't see any benefit to hardening a key.)


Plain "mild steel" is carbon steel. A lot of jargon common terms
confuse these things. Even the mildest steel contains carbon, at least
0.08 %. The series starts with 1008, which was once used for stamped
car-body parts.


O.K. Yes, pretty mild steel as they go. :-)

1008 won't harden noticeably. When you get up to 1020 (0.2% carbon),
it will work-harden a bit but barely quench-harden. Quench-hardening
starts at around 1040, but even that doesn't harden much.


O.K.

In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher
carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way
carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but
music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high
hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090.
'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo
hardness tester, anyway.


I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter,
and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with
carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the
cut occurs. :-)


I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever found to cut it clean, and it works great.

Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's usually 1.0 - 1.2% carbon.

It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the wire. In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi and the hardness is comparably 'way up there.



Keystock comes in a variety of materials but the common ones are 1018 and 1045.


O.K. What I have is likely the 1018, based on the feel filing
it.

High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a
tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more
(M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering
temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called
"high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely
glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least.

Also -- I don't think that I have ever seen HSS rust. I guess
that it is possible, but uncommon.


It is somewhat rust-resistant, but it will rust.


O.K. Pretty much I guess I haven't exposed it to nasty
environments. :-)

Thanks for the additional information.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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Default Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)

On 2016-11-26, wrote:
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-25,
wrote:

[ ... ]

In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher
carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way
carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but
music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high
hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090.
'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo
hardness tester, anyway.


I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter,
and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with
carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the
cut occurs. :-)


I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever
found to cut it clean, and it works great.


Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points.
Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to make
watchmaker's chisels. :-)

Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of
carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's usually
1.0 - 1.2% carbon.


With other weird alloy components for their desired effects?
Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds. (For
that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds, which I
think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer available
as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task,
except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done either by
filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe
around. :-)

It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the wire.
In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi and
the hardness is comparably 'way up there.


Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator"
project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough.

For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong
enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the lower
gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon, assuming
that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of something
like that on the moon.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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Default Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:45:48 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-26, wrote:
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-25,
wrote:

[ ... ]

In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher
carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way
carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but
music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high
hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090.
'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo
hardness tester, anyway.

I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter,
and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with
carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the
cut occurs. :-)


I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever
found to cut it clean, and it works great.


Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points.
Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to make
watchmaker's chisels. :-)

Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of
carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's usually
1.0 - 1.2% carbon.


With other weird alloy components for their desired effects?


Not really. As I mentioned, the material stock is usually proprietary. There is an ASTM standard for "music wire" (ASTM A228), but it's really just a designation for a type of spring wire, which probably is what 90% of "music wire" is used for. It's 1.0 % carbon and it contains around 0.30 - 0.60 manganese and a bit of sulfur, the latter probably to make it draw better.

Basically, it's really clean, high-quality extreme high-carbon steel, and, despite the miniscule amount of manganese, it's considered to be a plain-carbon steel.


Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds. (For
that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds, which I
think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer available
as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task,
except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done either by
filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe
around. :-)

It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the wire.
In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi and
the hardness is comparably 'way up there.


Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator"
project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough.


I don't know.


For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong
enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the lower
gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon, assuming
that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of something
like that on the moon.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Sorry, I don't do astrophysics. Just earthbound materials science. d8-)


--
Ed Huntress



--
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Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


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Posts: 5,888
Default Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)

wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:45:48 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-26, wrote:
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols
wrote:
On 2016-11-25,

wrote:


[ ... ]

In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any
higher
carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because
of the way
carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes
close but
music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to
very high
hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than
1090.
'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a
Mitutoyo
hardness tester, anyway.

I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter,
and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters
with
carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden
when the
cut occurs. :-)


I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever
found to cut it clean, and it works great.


Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points.
Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to
make
watchmaker's chisels. :-)

Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of
carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's
usually
1.0 - 1.2% carbon.


With other weird alloy components for their desired effects?


Not really. As I mentioned, the material stock is usually proprietary.
There is an ASTM standard for "music wire" (ASTM A228), but it's
really just a designation for a type of spring wire, which probably is
what 90% of "music wire" is used for. It's 1.0 % carbon and it
contains around 0.30 - 0.60 manganese and a bit of sulfur, the latter
probably to make it draw better.

Basically, it's really clean, high-quality extreme high-carbon steel,
and, despite the miniscule amount of manganese, it's considered to be
a plain-carbon steel.


Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds.
(For
that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds,
which I
think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer
available
as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task,
except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done
either by
filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe
around. :-)

It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the
wire.
In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi
and
the hardness is comparably 'way up there.


Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator"
project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough.


I don't know.


For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong
enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the
lower
gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon,
assuming
that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of
something
like that on the moon.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Sorry, I don't do astrophysics. Just earthbound materials science.
d8-)


--
Ed Huntress

============

Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator requires a material
that can support 5000 miles of itself at 1 g, unless it tapers larger
as it rises. The gravitational pull on each part of it gradually
decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a satellite will
(almost) remain stationary over a spot on the equator. The cable needs
to extend higher to where centrifugal force pulls a counterweight
outward, balancing the weight of the lower cable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise

--jsw




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Default Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)

On Saturday, November 26, 2016 at 10:01:33 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:45:48 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-26, wrote:
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols
wrote:
On 2016-11-25,

wrote:


[ ... ]

In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any
higher
carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because
of the way
carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes
close but
music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to
very high
hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than
1090.
'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a
Mitutoyo
hardness tester, anyway.

I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter,
and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters
with
carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden
when the
cut occurs. :-)


I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever
found to cut it clean, and it works great.


Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points.
Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to
make
watchmaker's chisels. :-)

Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of
carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's
usually
1.0 - 1.2% carbon.


With other weird alloy components for their desired effects?


Not really. As I mentioned, the material stock is usually proprietary.
There is an ASTM standard for "music wire" (ASTM A228), but it's
really just a designation for a type of spring wire, which probably is
what 90% of "music wire" is used for. It's 1.0 % carbon and it
contains around 0.30 - 0.60 manganese and a bit of sulfur, the latter
probably to make it draw better.

Basically, it's really clean, high-quality extreme high-carbon steel,
and, despite the miniscule amount of manganese, it's considered to be
a plain-carbon steel.


Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds.
(For
that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds,
which I
think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer
available
as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task,
except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done
either by
filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe
around. :-)

It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the
wire.
In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi
and
the hardness is comparably 'way up there.


Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator"
project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough.


I don't know.


For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong
enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the
lower
gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon,
assuming
that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of
something
like that on the moon.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Sorry, I don't do astrophysics. Just earthbound materials science.
d8-)


--
Ed Huntress

============

Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator requires a material
that can support 5000 miles of itself at 1 g, unless it tapers larger
as it rises. The gravitational pull on each part of it gradually
decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a satellite will
(almost) remain stationary over a spot on the equator. The cable needs
to extend higher to where centrifugal force pulls a counterweight
outward, balancing the weight of the lower cable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise

--jsw


Okay. What are the highest strength/weight ratio materials? Some carbon variation, most likely. Boron fiber is cool, too. I tried a fly rod made from that stuff once. It's incredibly stiff and very strong.

But I doubt if music wire is going to be om the mix. At the extreme, in the finest diameters, its ultimate tensile strength can range up to 460,000 psi. In the thicker sections, around 1/8" dia., it's around 200,000 psi. But, being steel, it's heavy.

--
Ed Huntress
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Default Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:45:48 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols
wrote:
On 2016-11-26, wrote:
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols
wrote:
On 2016-11-25,

wrote:


[ ... ]

In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any
higher
carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because
of the way
carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes
close but
music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to
very high
hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than
1090.
'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a
Mitutoyo
hardness tester, anyway.

I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter,
and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters
with
carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden
when the
cut occurs. :-)


I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've
ever
found to cut it clean, and it works great.


Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points.
Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to
make
watchmaker's chisels. :-)

Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of
carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's
usually
1.0 - 1.2% carbon.


With other weird alloy components for their desired effects?


Not really. As I mentioned, the material stock is usually
proprietary. There is an ASTM standard for "music wire" (ASTM A228),
but it's really just a designation for a type of spring wire, which
probably is what 90% of "music wire" is used for. It's 1.0 % carbon
and it contains around 0.30 - 0.60 manganese and a bit of sulfur,
the latter probably to make it draw better.

Basically, it's really clean, high-quality extreme high-carbon
steel, and, despite the miniscule amount of manganese, it's
considered to be a plain-carbon steel.


Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds.
(For
that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds,
which I
think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer
available
as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task,
except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done
either by
filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe
around. :-)

It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the
wire.
In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi
and
the hardness is comparably 'way up there.


Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator"
project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough.


I don't know.


For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong
enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the
lower
gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon,
assuming
that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of
something
like that on the moon.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Sorry, I don't do astrophysics. Just earthbound materials science.
d8-)


--
Ed Huntress

============

Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator requires a material
that can support 5000 miles of itself at 1 g, unless it tapers
larger as it rises. The gravitational pull on each part of it
gradually decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a
satellite will (almost) remain stationary over a spot on the
equator. The cable needs to extend higher to where centrifugal force
pulls a counterweight outward, balancing the weight of the lower
cable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise

--jsw


Oops, 5000 kilometers: Shoulda looked it up first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator
"An untapered space elevator cable would need a material capable of
sustaining a length of 4,960 kilometers (3,080 mi) of its own weight
at sea level to reach a geostationary altitude of 35,786 km (22,236
mi) without yielding."

--jsw


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Default Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)


"Jim Wilkins"

Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator
requires a material that can support 5000 miles of
itself at 1 g, unless it tapers larger as it rises.
The gravitational pull on each part of it gradually
decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a
satellite will (almost) remain stationary over a spot
on the equator. The cable needs to extend higher to
where centrifugal force pulls a counterweight
outward, balancing the weight of the lower cable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise


How do you apply "centrifugal force" to this
counterweight?
The satellite wants to travel in a straight line but is
drawn
toward the earth by centripetal acceleration,
"gravity". Art Clarke
is full of bull****. There is _no_ force whatsoever
acting outward.
The cable is pulling inward toward the center of
rotation.

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"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
news

"Jim Wilkins"

Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator requires a
material that can support 5000 miles of itself at 1 g, unless it
tapers larger as it rises. The gravitational pull on each part of
it gradually decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a
satellite will (almost) remain stationary over a spot on the
equator. The cable needs to extend higher to where centrifugal
force pulls a counterweight outward, balancing the weight of the
lower cable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise


How do you apply "centrifugal force" to this counterweight?
The satellite wants to travel in a straight line but is drawn
toward the earth by centripetal acceleration, "gravity". Art Clarke
is full of bull****. There is _no_ force whatsoever acting outward.
The cable is pulling inward toward the center of rotation.


OK, "Centrifugal Force" is really straight-line inertia that acts
along the object's instantaneous tangential velocity vector, not
radially outward from the center of rotation. It only seems that way
to the rotating observer who released the object.

The point is that the outer end of the cable beyond GEO is dragged
around once per day while the unconstrained angular and orbital
velocity of a satellite there would be slower, so the net force on the
cable is outward.
--jsw


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Default Keystock as Lathe Bits ?

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
news
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk
bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the
box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed
what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut
on each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the
belt sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it.
I can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went
ahead and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it
in the HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear
the end off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so.

Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a
time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped
mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked
to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared
off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring
punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got
that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny
divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it.
So... is is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit
or is it the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it
be ground and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard
enough?

I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a
few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for.




Well, the spring punch test was worthless. The pieces that look like
keystock are easily scratched with a file, and the piece that looked like a
manfacturer lathe blank isn't. I compared it to some M2 blanks I have and
it seemed to skate the file about the same, but the indeterminate results of
the spring punch come immediately to mind.

For those commenting on rust... these came to me in their current
condition. The box was with other bits and pieces on a shelf on a covered
patio. While Arizona is pretty dry its not completely dry.







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