Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

And when you dump in ball bearings along with your slurries and turn
it on..what happens?

FIRST of all, Gunner, you don't dump in ball bearings "along with your
slurries" (or dry powders).

The standard charge for a dry milling process is 50% of the empty jar's
volume of media, and 25% of the empty jar's volume in material to be
ground. Due to the ~60% solid ratio of balls in a mass, that means the
material just barely covers the media, and provides the most efficient
grinding, keeping just enough material between the balls to keep them
from 'grinding' themselves, and allowing the powder or slurry to be
repeatedly crushed between balls.

The 'big difference' in milling action between a vibratory mill and a
ball mill is that the material in a ball mill is _rapidly_ exchanged and
mixed, with a full exchange occurring in just a few revolutions --
sometimes in a fraction of a second. And... ideally charged, the media
does not wear significantly.

Gunner, I'm very familiar with both mechanisms, and in early experiments
before writing my book on ball milling, I experimented with both to see
what the results _could_ be in terms of milling chemicals for fireworks.
A ball mill is capable of processing 20x the material over the same
period as a vibratory mill -- when milling powders, as opposed to
'polishing stuff'.

There's no comparison. Each has its place in the world, but for grinding
chemicals (inexpensively), ball mills have it hands-down.

Lloyd

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

How long is the (2) wires between your pot and your controller? You
do know you can make em longer...right?

You should read my responses to that before you ask! 'Chopper-type' PWM
controls (triac type with Zero-crossing turn-off) have very high rise-
times on turn-on. This type of switching doesn't 'play well' with 150'
long leads between controller and motor. (unless you're willing to use
LARGE-gauge stranded wire with capacitive and inductive 'tuning' at both
ends).

That sort of treatment isn't in the vocabulary or budget of most folks
seeking to run a ball mill.

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 4.170...
Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

How long is the (2) wires between your pot and your controller?
You
do know you can make em longer...right?

You should read my responses to that before you ask! 'Chopper-type'
PWM
controls (triac type with Zero-crossing turn-off) have very high
rise-
times on turn-on. This type of switching doesn't 'play well' with
150'
long leads between controller and motor. (unless you're willing to
use
LARGE-gauge stranded wire with capacitive and inductive 'tuning' at
both
ends).

That sort of treatment isn't in the vocabulary or budget of most
folks
seeking to run a ball mill.

Lloyd

It's in my vocabulary, but for signalling rather than motors. What
have you seen for problems?
--jsw

On 9 Oct 2016 03:32:11 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-10-08, wrote:
On 8 Oct 2016 04:09:34 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

3-speed fan motors depend on the load of the fan blades or
squirrel cage fighting the input current modified by the number of turns
in the selected winding. In your application, it would likely run close
to full speed on all three windings.

The multispeed blower motor on my old furnace switched the number of
poles and the speed difference with no load was VERY noticeable. The
torque was almost the same at either speed - resulting in a large
difference in horsepower as well.

O.K. Quite different from mine, which has a squirrel-cage blower
and a motor with two windings -- a cap shifted one for starting and run
torque, and a multi-tap one for various speeds connected directly to the
power line. Change the tap, you change the speed when the squirrel-cage
is present, but for an unloaded motor, the speed does not noticeably
change (and is *much* faster than any of the speeds with the cage
present.)

Perhaps the vintage of the furnace involved. Mine is a Carrier
from about the mid 1990s when the house was expanded.

Enjoy,
DoN.
I think mine was an emmerson Electric 1/2 HP on high and 1/6 HP on
low. It was installed as an upgrade on the 1974 vintage Clare furnace
back about 1986. It's still likely kicking around out in the shed.

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 06:47:24 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

How long is the (2) wires between your pot and your controller? You
do know you can make em longer...right?

You should read my responses to that before you ask! 'Chopper-type' PWM
controls (triac type with Zero-crossing turn-off) have very high rise-
times on turn-on. This type of switching doesn't 'play well' with 150'
long leads between controller and motor. (unless you're willing to use
LARGE-gauge stranded wire with capacitive and inductive 'tuning' at both
ends).

That sort of treatment isn't in the vocabulary or budget of most folks
seeking to run a ball mill.

Lloyd
I THINK he was talking about remoting the speed pot on the VFD. A
relatively simple 3 conductor cable on the "voltage devider".
Possible for sure, but a bit of a pain.

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:ntdcee$nme
:

It's in my vocabulary, but for signalling rather than motors. What
have you seen for problems?

Mostly, it's just been poor power development at the motor, with more-
than-normal heating (I suppose due to 'ringing'). And of course, it can
be managed with correct termination.

To be clear, I only ever tried that experimentally, just to see what were
the results. It's FAR too easy to make an optimized mill with a
constant-speed motor that spins the jar at the correct speed, and not
have to vary the motor speed.

Until they've done the math, most people can't or won't grasp that
changing jar sizes on a roller-driven ball mill automatically adjusts the
speed to approximately correct, without having to change motor speed or
reduction ratios.

Plus, in my business, one tends to avoid electronics around explosives
when possible, due to the enclosures, the pressurization, and the
ventilation needs that have to be managed for that class environment.

That said, my recent job at an Army arsenal was a completely-computerized
automatic manufacturing line -- so it can be done, if price is not a
constraint.

Lloyd

fired this volley in
:

I THINK he was talking about remoting the speed pot on the VFD. A
relatively simple 3 conductor cable on the "voltage devider".
Possible for sure, but a bit of a pain.

I never read any indications that he was talking about multi-phase
motors. OF COURSE it can be done that way, but all the discussion here
was about chopper-controlled single-phase induction motors.

That sort doesn't particularly like that sort of control _anyway_, unless
they were designed for high-slip operation (like, say, ceiling fan
motors).

But, again: A properly designed ball mill requires NO speed control over
a fairly wide range of jar sizes.

LLoyd

On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 19:44:29 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Ayup. So you start em from zero and take em to where you want to go,
with a simply twist of the wrist.


That's fine if you're grinding salt. If your grinding gunpowder, being
there with your hand on the knob when it starts isn't quite as safe.

I think you misread that one, Lloyd. With the start switch flipped
from off to on, the rotation speed is zero. Run it up by hand with
the knob.

Or did I misread your reply? Is it that you never get close to the
mill when it's running due to safety factors?

--
All of us want to do well. But if we do not do
good, too, then doing well will never be enough.
-- Anna Quindlen

On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 16:46:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 15:13:21 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 10:29:17 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:


Larger drum pulley and smaller motor pulley (sprockets?) would be the
cheapest for you. You can make 'em if you don't already have 'em.
Gear it down with stepped pulleys if you need some speed variability.
A plain ol' serpentine belt may work on a small motor pulley and
around the bare drum, too, but you may get perhaps months instead of
years of life out of it that way, depending on usage. I've seen a
makeshift concrete mixer and several rock tumblers done this way over
the years. My old wood lathe has a 1/4hp motor hung on a loose bolt
with its own weight keeping the belt tight, but it has 3-step pulleys.

I guess a description of this power unit is needed ... There is a pair of
rods with rollers , motor below . The rods are driven by a chain and
sprocket arrangement at one end of the unit . In use the drum is cradled on
the rollers and driven by them .

I had envisioned a 45-degree drum, for some reason. No big.

BUT, like most of us here, you're a _maker_. You fab up what you
don't have or don't want to buy.



Here's an ebay listing for one that is similar in function - just put a
chain drive under a cover on one end instead of the belts .
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Diamond-Paci...-/262525104831

That's easily modified. To add a larger top pulley, remount the motor
lower, on a new plate if necessary.


Depending on how big he needs..I often find these for a few hundred
dollars

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-MR...-/201081233835

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-bowl-vibr...-/281809058500

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vibra-Hone-F...-/251137793130

Those are all vibes. He bought a roller. But, which is cheaper, your
several hundred dollars or a quick fab job to swap pulleys?

--
All of us want to do well. But if we do not do
good, too, then doing well will never be enough.
-- Anna Quindlen

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 00:04:47 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 19:43:06 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
m:

Depending on how big he needs..I often find these for a few hundred
dollars

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-MR...RY-TUMBLER-FIN
ISHING-/201081233835


Not the same animal, Gunner. He's talking about a ball mill (like used
in paint manufacturing), used to grind powders and/or slurries finer.

Vibratory polishers are intended to polish parts.

Lloyd

And when you dump in ball bearings along with your slurries and turn
it on..what happens?

In Lloyd's case: BOOM!


--
All of us want to do well. But if we do not do
good, too, then doing well will never be enough.
-- Anna Quindlen

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 19:25:59 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 13:08:39 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

David Billington wrote:
On 08/10/16 18:02, Terry Coombs wrote:
David Billington wrote:
A poly V belt can be used to drive a bare drum if the drum is IIRC
10x or more the driving pulley size without a problem. There is a
good Contitech design guide for their poly v belts and it mentions
it in there. They've been doing washing machines that way for
decades.
--
All of us want to do well. But if we do not do
good, too, then doing well will never be enough.
-- Anna Quindlen

I've been using a poly v "serp" belt in place of the flat belt
on my Logan lathe for years . And did you mean dryers ? Most every
dryer I've ever worked on used a poly v to drive the drum .
Those too and I expect many other similar items out there. I didn't
think dryer as I've never owned one, I just hang my clothes on the
line in the garden or on the radiators in the winter when wet.

We line dry too . but also have a dryer for those times the weather
won't allow hanging out ... just a note - puppies and clotheslines
aren't always a happy mix .

You guys can HAVE your dogs. http://tinyurl.com/zrmbpjy and
http://tinyurl.com/zvyp7ds, just to start.

So curb yer mutt, fence off the drying lines, or hang 'em higher.
Better yet, nix the dog altogether.
/dog lover/hater

I'm so sorry you feel that way . Any dog that chews and destroys his
master's stuff needs a new master .

I'd say that only a bit more than 90% of dogs need new owners, some
who have their heads out of their asses and _will_ train the bad
behavior out of the dogs. Moron pet owners is the main reason I won't
live in town.

--
All of us want to do well. But if we do not do
good, too, then doing well will never be enough.
-- Anna Quindlen

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 09:15:16 -0400, wrote:

On 9 Oct 2016 03:32:11 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-10-08, wrote:
On 8 Oct 2016 04:09:34 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

3-speed fan motors depend on the load of the fan blades or
squirrel cage fighting the input current modified by the number of turns
in the selected winding. In your application, it would likely run close
to full speed on all three windings.

The multispeed blower motor on my old furnace switched the number of
poles and the speed difference with no load was VERY noticeable. The
torque was almost the same at either speed - resulting in a large
difference in horsepower as well.

O.K. Quite different from mine, which has a squirrel-cage blower
and a motor with two windings -- a cap shifted one for starting and run
torque, and a multi-tap one for various speeds connected directly to the
power line. Change the tap, you change the speed when the squirrel-cage
is present, but for an unloaded motor, the speed does not noticeably
change (and is *much* faster than any of the speeds with the cage
present.)

Perhaps the vintage of the furnace involved. Mine is a Carrier
from about the mid 1990s when the house was expanded.

Enjoy,
DoN.
I think mine was an emmerson Electric 1/2 HP on high and 1/6 HP on
low. It was installed as an upgrade on the 1974 vintage Clare furnace
back about 1986. It's still likely kicking around out in the shed.

WHAT? You're a rich and famous HVAC manufacturing company owner and
didn't tell us until now?

--
All of us want to do well. But if we do not do
good, too, then doing well will never be enough.
-- Anna Quindlen

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Or did I misread your reply? Is it that you never get close to the
mill when it's running due to safety factors?

Bingo. Just 'being there' is foolish. More than one mill has exploded
during operation.

Lloyd

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 09:50:59 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Or did I misread your reply? Is it that you never get close to the
mill when it's running due to safety factors?

Bingo. Just 'being there' is foolish. More than one mill has exploded
during operation.

Why are the materials more explosive during mixing than they are
during handling after they're mixed?

--
All of us want to do well. But if we do not do
good, too, then doing well will never be enough.
-- Anna Quindlen

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 08:23:49 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
:

I THINK he was talking about remoting the speed pot on the VFD. A
relatively simple 3 conductor cable on the "voltage devider".
Possible for sure, but a bit of a pain.

I never read any indications that he was talking about multi-phase
motors. OF COURSE it can be done that way, but all the discussion here
was about chopper-controlled single-phase induction motors.


Which STILL uses a sped control pot There ARE variable frequency
single phase drives - they just have a narrower speed range and
perhaps a diminished starting torque.

That sort doesn't particularly like that sort of control _anyway_, unless
they were designed for high-slip operation (like, say, ceiling fan
motors).

But, again: A properly designed ball mill requires NO speed control over
a fairly wide range of jar sizes.

LLoyd
Because it is basically the linear speed of the inside surface of the
jar that is critical.

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 06:51:42 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 09:15:16 -0400, wrote:

On 9 Oct 2016 03:32:11 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-10-08, wrote:
On 8 Oct 2016 04:09:34 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

3-speed fan motors depend on the load of the fan blades or
squirrel cage fighting the input current modified by the number of turns
in the selected winding. In your application, it would likely run close
to full speed on all three windings.

The multispeed blower motor on my old furnace switched the number of
poles and the speed difference with no load was VERY noticeable. The
torque was almost the same at either speed - resulting in a large
difference in horsepower as well.

O.K. Quite different from mine, which has a squirrel-cage blower
and a motor with two windings -- a cap shifted one for starting and run
torque, and a multi-tap one for various speeds connected directly to the
power line. Change the tap, you change the speed when the squirrel-cage
is present, but for an unloaded motor, the speed does not noticeably
change (and is *much* faster than any of the speeds with the cage
present.)

Perhaps the vintage of the furnace involved. Mine is a Carrier
from about the mid 1990s when the house was expanded.

Enjoy,
DoN.
I think mine was an emmerson Electric 1/2 HP on high and 1/6 HP on
low. It was installed as an upgrade on the 1974 vintage Clare furnace
back about 1986. It's still likely kicking around out in the shed.

WHAT? You're a rich and famous HVAC manufacturing company owner and
didn't tell us until now?
Snyder-General (acroaire and Comfortmaker) was also a HVAC
manufacturing company - now also owned by International Comfort
Products

I said if I had 13 million given to me at age 21 I'd be a
multibillionaire like Trump, didn't I???

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 10:07:10 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 09:50:59 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
m:

Or did I misread your reply? Is it that you never get close to the
mill when it's running due to safety factors?

Bingo. Just 'being there' is foolish. More than one mill has exploded
during operation.

Why are the materials more explosive during mixing than they are
during handling after they're mixed?
Becaue they are "aerosolized" - ALL of their surface area is exposed
to air. The only "safe" way to mill pyrotechnics is in an inert
atmosphere - and even then it is not "safe" because oxidizers are part
of the mix.

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
news
Why are the materials more explosive during mixing than they are
during handling after they're mixed?

Larry, this isn't "mixing", it's GRINDING.

Ball mills grind material by multiple impacts of the balls one-to-another,
with material to be ground in between them.

Lloyd

fired this volley in
:

Becaue they are "aerosolized" - ALL of their surface area is exposed
to air. The only "safe" way to mill pyrotechnics is in an inert
atmosphere - and even then it is not "safe" because oxidizers are part
of the mix.



No... that's not true of milling black powder. It CAN be true for milling
some metals (like Mg). The safety issue comes from the impacts the balls
make on one-another with explosive powder between them.

Lloyd

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 13:38:24 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
:

Becaue they are "aerosolized" - ALL of their surface area is exposed
to air. The only "safe" way to mill pyrotechnics is in an inert
atmosphere - and even then it is not "safe" because oxidizers are part
of the mix.



No... that's not true of milling black powder. It CAN be true for milling
some metals (like Mg). The safety issue comes from the impacts the balls
make on one-another with explosive powder between them.

Lloyd
and the fact black powder has an oxidizer The potassium nitrate
means even an inert atmosphere doesn't make it safe because it can
self-deflagrate from compressive force alone.

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 06:43:18 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

And when you dump in ball bearings along with your slurries and turn
it on..what happens?

FIRST of all, Gunner, you don't dump in ball bearings "along with your
slurries" (or dry powders).

The standard charge for a dry milling process is 50% of the empty jar's
volume of media, and 25% of the empty jar's volume in material to be
ground. Due to the ~60% solid ratio of balls in a mass, that means the
material just barely covers the media, and provides the most efficient
grinding, keeping just enough material between the balls to keep them
from 'grinding' themselves, and allowing the powder or slurry to be
repeatedly crushed between balls.

The 'big difference' in milling action between a vibratory mill and a
ball mill is that the material in a ball mill is _rapidly_ exchanged and
mixed, with a full exchange occurring in just a few revolutions --
sometimes in a fraction of a second. And... ideally charged, the media
does not wear significantly.

Gunner, I'm very familiar with both mechanisms, and in early experiments
before writing my book on ball milling, I experimented with both to see
what the results _could_ be in terms of milling chemicals for fireworks.
A ball mill is capable of processing 20x the material over the same
period as a vibratory mill -- when milling powders, as opposed to
'polishing stuff'.

There's no comparison. Each has its place in the world, but for grinding
chemicals (inexpensively), ball mills have it hands-down.

Lloyd

Got it. Ive never had a machine that I could mix flammible exo-thermic
compounds with, so Ill leave it up to you.

If you are interested in 'mixers"...this one (bottom left corner) is
still available

https://goo.gl/photos/ftTbikjC2isK7dGt9

It says something something mixer on the manufactures tag

Gunner

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On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 06:45:22 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 00:04:47 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 19:43:06 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Depending on how big he needs..I often find these for a few hundred
dollars

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-MR...RY-TUMBLER-FIN
ISHING-/201081233835


Not the same animal, Gunner. He's talking about a ball mill (like used
in paint manufacturing), used to grind powders and/or slurries finer.

Vibratory polishers are intended to polish parts.

Lloyd

And when you dump in ball bearings along with your slurries and turn
it on..what happens?

In Lloyd's case: BOOM!


I was unaware of the fact that the compounds were exothermic. Ive been
in and out of this thread and missed that fact. Sorry to all.

Gunner

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On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 08:23:49 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
:

I THINK he was talking about remoting the speed pot on the VFD. A
relatively simple 3 conductor cable on the "voltage devider".
Possible for sure, but a bit of a pain.

I never read any indications that he was talking about multi-phase
motors. OF COURSE it can be done that way, but all the discussion here
was about chopper-controlled single-phase induction motors.

I said VFD...and most VFDs can be remoted up to 500 feet, particularly
if using the 0-10 analog input for speed control. RS-485 will work
even farther.

That sort doesn't particularly like that sort of control _anyway_, unless
they were designed for high-slip operation (like, say, ceiling fan
motors).

But, again: A properly designed ball mill requires NO speed control over
a fairly wide range of jar sizes.

LLoyd

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On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 13:48:43 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 08:23:49 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
m:

I THINK he was talking about remoting the speed pot on the VFD. A
relatively simple 3 conductor cable on the "voltage devider".
Possible for sure, but a bit of a pain.

I never read any indications that he was talking about multi-phase
motors. OF COURSE it can be done that way, but all the discussion here
was about chopper-controlled single-phase induction motors.


Which STILL uses a sped control pot There ARE variable frequency
single phase drives - they just have a narrower speed range and
perhaps a diminished starting torque.

Single phase input..3ph output is quite common.

That sort doesn't particularly like that sort of control _anyway_, unless
they were designed for high-slip operation (like, say, ceiling fan
motors).

But, again: A properly designed ball mill requires NO speed control over
a fairly wide range of jar sizes.

LLoyd
Because it is basically the linear speed of the inside surface of the
jar that is critical.

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On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 13:38:24 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
:

Becaue they are "aerosolized" - ALL of their surface area is exposed
to air. The only "safe" way to mill pyrotechnics is in an inert
atmosphere - and even then it is not "safe" because oxidizers are part
of the mix.



No... that's not true of milling black powder. It CAN be true for milling
some metals (like Mg). The safety issue comes from the impacts the balls
make on one-another with explosive powder between them.

Lloyd

Very true indeed

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On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 15:08:35 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 13:38:24 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
m:

Becaue they are "aerosolized" - ALL of their surface area is exposed
to air. The only "safe" way to mill pyrotechnics is in an inert
atmosphere - and even then it is not "safe" because oxidizers are part
of the mix.



No... that's not true of milling black powder. It CAN be true for milling
some metals (like Mg). The safety issue comes from the impacts the balls
make on one-another with explosive powder between them.

Lloyd
and the fact black powder has an oxidizer The potassium nitrate
means even an inert atmosphere doesn't make it safe because it can
self-deflagrate from compressive force alone.

Again, very true

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Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

It says something something mixer on the manufactures tag

'Cone' tumbling mixer, also sometimes used as an ersatz ball mill.

Lloyd

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
news
I said VFD...and most VFDs can be remoted up to 500 feet, particularly
if using the 0-10 analog input for speed control. RS-485 will work
even farther.

YOU said VFD, but the OP was talking about plain induction motors.
Lloyd

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 17:50:04 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

It says something something mixer on the manufactures tag

'Cone' tumbling mixer, also sometimes used as an ersatz ball mill.

Lloyd

If its of a size you could use..I could probably get it pretty
cheaply...IE..under $100

Located in Santa Ana, California. The owner was using it to mix
injection molding plastic pellets and dyes

I dont think he will ever use it again.


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On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 17:51:17 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
news
I said VFD...and most VFDs can be remoted up to 500 feet, particularly
if using the 0-10 analog input for speed control. RS-485 will work
even farther.

YOU said VFD, but the OP was talking about plain induction motors.
Lloyd

Yes and? 3ph motors got in there somewhere..which is where I started
paying attention. My apologies.

Gunner

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Twisted wires reduce inductance. Always some problems
with long wires for voice or other electronics.

Martin

On 10/9/2016 6:47 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

How long is the (2) wires between your pot and your controller? You
do know you can make em longer...right?

You should read my responses to that before you ask! 'Chopper-type' PWM
controls (triac type with Zero-crossing turn-off) have very high rise-
times on turn-on. This type of switching doesn't 'play well' with 150'
long leads between controller and motor. (unless you're willing to use
LARGE-gauge stranded wire with capacitive and inductive 'tuning' at both
ends).

That sort of treatment isn't in the vocabulary or budget of most folks
seeking to run a ball mill.

Lloyd

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 14:00:34 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 10:07:10 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 09:50:59 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Or did I misread your reply? Is it that you never get close to the
mill when it's running due to safety factors?

Bingo. Just 'being there' is foolish. More than one mill has exploded
during operation.

Why are the materials more explosive during mixing than they are
during handling after they're mixed?
Becaue they are "aerosolized" - ALL of their surface area is exposed
to air. The only "safe" way to mill pyrotechnics is in an inert
atmosphere - and even then it is not "safe" because oxidizers are part
of the mix.

OK, got it. Flour and gasoline are also highly flammable (or
explosive) when aerosolized. So, once they're mixed and put into more
compact containers, how much does the safety factor go up?

How often do you have to replace ball mills due to explosions?

--
If government were a product,
selling it would be illegal.
--P.J. O'Rourke

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 13:36:50 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
news
Why are the materials more explosive during mixing than they are
during handling after they're mixed?

Larry, this isn't "mixing", it's GRINDING.

Ball mills grind material by multiple impacts of the balls one-to-another,
with material to be ground in between them.

Oh! (slaps head) I thought it was a glorified Mixmaster or rotary
tumbler.

--
If government were a product,
selling it would be illegal.
--P.J. O'Rourke

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

OK, got it. Flour and gasoline are also highly flammable (or
explosive) when aerosolized. So, once they're mixed and put into more
compact containers, how much does the safety factor go up?

How often do you have to replace ball mills due to explosions?


Sorry, Larry, but that "aerosolized" concept doesn't apply with ball
mills, except when milling highly active metals, or naturally pyrophoric
materials (like, say, white phosphorus -- which doesn't mill well,
anyway, due to its plasticity). The danger in mills is from impact,
primarily.

I've had one mill explosion in 48 years of doing it. And that one was
not an explosive, but fine magnesium powder being only mixed, not milled
(but IN a ball mill jar).

Lloyd

On 2016-10-09, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
fired this volley in
:

I THINK he was talking about remoting the speed pot on the VFD. A
relatively simple 3 conductor cable on the "voltage devider".
Possible for sure, but a bit of a pain.

I never read any indications that he was talking about multi-phase
motors. OF COURSE it can be done that way, but all the discussion here
was about chopper-controlled single-phase induction motors.

Remoting just the pot on a chopper control (dimmer like) on a
universal or DC motor might be possible, too. (If needed, as you say
that the ball mills don't need speed control if properly designed.)

That sort doesn't particularly like that sort of control _anyway_, unless
they were designed for high-slip operation (like, say, ceiling fan
motors).

Well ... *some* ceiling fan motors. The *old* Hunter ceiling
fan motors were an interesting design -- inverted rotor (that is rotor
hollow and outside the stator) and with two different pole counts for
two different speeds. I really liked those -- but newer ones have
electronic controls which can blow a capacitor in really hot conditions.
(E.G. when the air conditioner has died, the windows are open and the fan
is trying to stir the hot air produced by my computers so some of it
exits via the windows. :-)

But, again: A properly designed ball mill requires NO speed control over
a fairly wide range of jar sizes.

Agreed.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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