Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Intresting Engine

New engine to hit the market in 2017.



http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...sion-official/


Best Regards
Tom.


  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,148
Default Intresting Engine

Howard Beel wrote:

New engine to hit the market in 2017.



http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable-

compression-official/


Best Regards
Tom.

Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which
seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for
some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model.

By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak
pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too.
A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the
lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the
lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent?

Jon
  #3   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,888
Default Intresting Engine

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
Howard Beel wrote:

New engine to hit the market in 2017.



http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable-

compression-official/


Best Regards
Tom.

Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing,
which
seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing
this for
some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model.

By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak
pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too.
A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages
to the
lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity
to the
lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda
patent?

Jon


Or a Peugeot patent?
http://www.motortrend.com/news/mce5-...t-geneva-3891/
--jsw


  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default Intresting Engine

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Howard Beel wrote:

New engine to hit the market in 2017.



http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable-

compression-official/


Best Regards
Tom.

Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which
seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for
some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model.

By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak
pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too.
A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the
lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the
lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent?

Jon


I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary.
Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson
cycle, used on today's hybrids:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the compression
ratio of the engine.

The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is
only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition, the
actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in. This
is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the efficiency
of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression
ratio.

If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal
ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually
have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to 14:1).
When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less
air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective
compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These values
are just examples.)

You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle
extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke.

The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the
variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio that's
the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the pseudo
Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so.

--
Ed Huntress
  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Intresting Engine

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Howard Beel wrote:

New engine to hit the market in 2017.



http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable-

compression-official/


Best Regards
Tom.

Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which
seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this
for
some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model.

By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak
pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too.
A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the
lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the
lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent?

Jon


I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary.
Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson
cycle, used on today's hybrids:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the compression
ratio of the engine.

The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is
only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition, the
actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in. This
is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the efficiency
of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression
ratio.

If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal
ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually
have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to 14:1).
When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less
air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective
compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These values
are just examples.)

You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle
extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke.

The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the
variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio that's
the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the pseudo
Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so.


Ed Huntress
================================================== =================

Saab demonstrated a running variable compression supercharged 5 cylinder in
2000, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_V...ression_engine for
example. Naturally GM killed it sometime after they acquired Saab, citing
cost. This was an inline engine with the block split horizontally between
crankshaft and cylinders, with a hinge down one side and a mechanism to lift
the other side to control the compression.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames




  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,148
Default Intresting Engine

Ed Huntress wrote:

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:


I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary.
Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson
cycle, used on today's hybrids:

Right.


What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the compression
ratio of the engine.

The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is
only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition, the
actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in. This
is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the efficiency
of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression
ratio.

Well, getting rid of pumping loss is a really good thing, so maybe this
accomplishes the variable output without a throttle, at least under the
driving range of operation (might still be needed for idle).
If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal
ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually
have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to 14:1).
When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less
air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective
compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These values
are just examples.)

You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle
extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke.

The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the
variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio that's
the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the pseudo
Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so.

OK, that probably requires a degree in thermodynamics to understand.

Jon
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,910
Default Intresting Engine

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Howard Beel wrote:

New engine to hit the market in 2017.



http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable-

compression-official/


Best Regards
Tom.

Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which
seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for
some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model.

By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak
pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too.
A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the
lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the
lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent?

Jon


I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary.
Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson
cycle, used on today's hybrids:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle


I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the weird
motions folks used to really get excited over.
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Intresting Engine

Cydrome Leader fired this volley in
:

I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the
weird motions folks used to really get excited over.


They're hardly "bizarr". I use such linkages on my machines to make
explosive materials. Those 'bizarre' linkages are really a basic part of
mechanics.

Look at some of the OLD (say, pre-1960s), purely-mechanical manuals on how
to achieve various motions -- it's all in there!

Lloyd
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default Intresting Engine

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:05:36 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:


I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary.
Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson
cycle, used on today's hybrids:

Right.


What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the compression
ratio of the engine.

The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is
only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition, the
actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in. This
is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the efficiency
of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression
ratio.

Well, getting rid of pumping loss is a really good thing, so maybe this
accomplishes the variable output without a throttle, at least under the
driving range of operation (might still be needed for idle).
If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal
ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually
have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to 14:1).
When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less
air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective
compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These values
are just examples.)

You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle
extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke.

The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the
variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio that's
the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the pseudo
Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so.

OK, that probably requires a degree in thermodynamics to understand.

Jon


Let me try the simple version and see if I can be clear: It is a
thermodynamics issue. The higher the compression ratio, the greater is
the Carnot efficiency of an engine. You don't need a thermodynamics
background to get the idea of the Carnot cycle and efficiency.
Wikipedia probably does it.

This is the main reason why diesels are so efficient: they always run
at full, nominal compression. There is no throttle on the air. It's
only the fuel that's varied as you advance from idle to full throttle.

On a spark-ignition engine, you keep the fuel/air mix as close to
uniform as you can, and you vary the amount of the mix that gets into
the cylinder, with the throttle. If you vary the fuel/air ratio by
much (the ideal is 14.7 pounds of air for a pound of gasoline), the
mixture won't ignite with a spark. So at full throttle, the engine
will be running at a high compression ratio, the nominal ratio --
maybe 10:1 for example. At part throttle, the lesser amount of
fuel/air mix produces a much lower effective compression ratio --
maybe 5:1 at some throttle settings. The Carnot efficiency goes to
hell.

So you can see why having a variable compession ratio is such a big
deal. Manufacturers have been trying to produce a variable compression
ratio system that works well and that doesn't cost an arm and a leg,
for close to a century.

The Atkinson cycle is something completely different, but it's another
thermodynamics issue. I'll give it a try:

The true, original Atkinson cycle involved a short intake and
compression stroke, and a long expansion stroke and exhaust stroke. A
true Atkinson did it by means of a complex crank mechanism. The
"pseudo Atkinsons," like the engines in today's hybrids, have the
same-length stroke for all four parts of the cycle. But they open the
intake valve late so the cylinder is less-filled. The expansion
stroke, therefore, is *relatively* long for the amount of fuel being
burned. You get more efficiency because the charge expands to a
greater degree than normal. The nominal compression ratio is very
high, but the *actual* compression is normal, because of the lesser
cylinder-filling.

This Nissan engine combines both, but it's the compression ratio
that's the big deal.

Tell me if this is as clear as mud. g

--
Ed Huntress
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default Intresting Engine

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 20:29:42 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Howard Beel wrote:

New engine to hit the market in 2017.



http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable-
compression-official/


Best Regards
Tom.
Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which
seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for
some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model.

By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak
pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too.
A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the
lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the
lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent?

Jon


I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary.
Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson
cycle, used on today's hybrids:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle


I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the weird
motions folks used to really get excited over.


Some of those are still around. This engine's crank is pretty wild.
And some high-performance Stirlings use a rhombic-drive crank.

--
Ed Huntress


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,888
Default Intresting Engine

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:


I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly
revolutionary.
Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a
pseudo-Atkinson
cycle, used on today's hybrids:

Right.


What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the
compression
ratio of the engine.

The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is
only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition,
the
actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in.
This
is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the
efficiency
of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression
ratio.

Well, getting rid of pumping loss is a really good thing, so maybe
this
accomplishes the variable output without a throttle, at least under
the
driving range of operation (might still be needed for idle).
If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal
ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually
have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to
14:1).
When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less
air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective
compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These
values
are just examples.)

You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle
extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke.

The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the
variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio
that's
the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the
pseudo
Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so.

OK, that probably requires a degree in thermodynamics to understand.

Jon


Engine efficiency increases with higher combustion ratio, limited by
preignition and Knock.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking

Knock varies with combustion conditions and can be sensed with a
microphone sharply tuned to the block's resonant frequency (thus
filtering out other sounds) and controlled by backing off the spark
advance until it nearly disappears. The old vacuum advance did this
open-loop, advancing the spark further at light throttle when intake
vacuum is high and releasing it back to the RPM-controlled centrifugal
advance position when you floor the pedal. However this is the easy
but not the best way.

SAAB's conceptually simple system moves the cylinder block up or down
relative to the crankshaft and piston to vary the combustion chamber's
size to maintain maximum allowable pressure and the best efficiency at
any power demand.
http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...h_engine_4.htm
Look at the positions of the orange eccentric shaft to the right of
the connecting rod, and the red combustion chamber.

--jsw


  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,910
Default Intresting Engine

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Cydrome Leader fired this volley in
:

I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the
weird motions folks used to really get excited over.


They're hardly "bizarr". I use such linkages on my machines to make
explosive materials. Those 'bizarre' linkages are really a basic part of
mechanics.

Look at some of the OLD (say, pre-1960s), purely-mechanical manuals on how
to achieve various motions -- it's all in there!

Lloyd


It also turns out lots of those motions just aren't necessary. On another
group there was chat about VHS tape recorders. Granted most machines now
have some level of computer in them and mechanical timing stuff isn't
needed anymore. The bottom line is cheap, not let's make elegant
mechanisms anymore.

Back to VCRs, the original ones had like a half dozen motors. Recent ones,
say made in the past 15-20 years were down to like 2 motors.

They designed all the complex mechanical nonsense out of the product. As
it turns out, none of that complexity was really needed in the first
place.




  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Intresting Engine

Cydrome Leader fired this volley in news:np04c9
:

They designed all the complex mechanical nonsense out of the product. As
it turns out, none of that complexity was really needed in the first
place.


But, "complexity" is not a part of an elegant mechanical design! Folks
design stuff based on their "art" at the time. Elegance in mechanics
peaked about 1930... It has gone down-hill ever since.urk!

Lloyd
  #14   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,025
Default Intresting Engine

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:50:42 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Cydrome Leader fired this volley in
:

I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the
weird motions folks used to really get excited over.


They're hardly "bizarr". I use such linkages on my machines to make
explosive materials. Those 'bizarre' linkages are really a basic part of
mechanics.

Look at some of the OLD (say, pre-1960s), purely-mechanical manuals on how
to achieve various motions -- it's all in there!


Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost:
http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements...

--
I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the
freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of
those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.
--James Madison
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Intresting Engine

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost:
http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements...


I have the four-volume set of "Ingenious mechanisms for designers and
inventors". It's just FULL of good stuff, some (small amount) of which
I've employed on my machines for the miltary.

Lloyd


  #16   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,025
Default Intresting Engine

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:15:53 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost:
http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements...


I have the four-volume set of "Ingenious mechanisms for designers and
inventors". It's just FULL of good stuff, some (small amount) of which
I've employed on my machines for the miltary.


I just saw one copy of the set on Amazon for $750, while individual
volumes start at $0.54 used. g They sound like fun. I recently
picked up Practical Electronics for Inventors but haven't gotten to it
yet. At the end of this month (I'm retiring earlier) I'll have more
time to finish my hefty 'unread' bookshelf. Maybe even turn off
Kindle Unlimited again for awhile...


The use of ancient mechanisms in new military machinery is wildly
amusing to me. Physics doesn't change (much), and being able to use
old inventor's mechanisms in new ways is a great idea. Kudos.

I've also been buying and using vintage machinery all my life because
the old stuff is well designed and much cheaper than the new, while
being perfectly good for my uses. Granted, a $12k sliding table saw
makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron jobber
(followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and would
take up over half my shop.

(Yeah, I know I got off-thread here with "vintage", but, just sayin'.)

--
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle
  #17   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,910
Default Intresting Engine

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Cydrome Leader fired this volley in news:np04c9
:

They designed all the complex mechanical nonsense out of the product. As
it turns out, none of that complexity was really needed in the first
place.


But, "complexity" is not a part of an elegant mechanical design! Folks
design stuff based on their "art" at the time. Elegance in mechanics
peaked about 1930... It has gone down-hill ever since.urk!


I'm sure lost of this knowledge has been lost. For a long time now I've
wondered how much effort it would take to design and built one of those
giant mechanical calculators like banks used to have. Those things were
absulutely insane in how complex they were and how many parts were crammed
inside.

Even typewritters are works of art in how the actions feel nice in
operation.

a $50 VCR is pretty amazing as well, when compared to an old one side by
side. If you consider them black boxes, the new throw away ones do still
work better. It's amazing how the the advancements in electronics rendered
all the other mechanical parts useless.
  #18   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,399
Default Intresting Engine


On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 20:17:29 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Granted, a $12k sliding table saw
makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron jobber
(followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and would
take up over half my shop.


Does the saw do what you want it to do? If not..bring it back.

(Grin)

Gunner

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

  #19   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,705
Default Intresting Engine

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:15:53 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost:
http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements...

I have the four-volume set of "Ingenious mechanisms for designers and
inventors". It's just FULL of good stuff, some (small amount) of which
I've employed on my machines for the miltary.


I just saw one copy of the set on Amazon for $750, while individual
volumes start at $0.54 used. g They sound like fun. I recently
picked up Practical Electronics for Inventors but haven't gotten to it
yet. At the end of this month (I'm retiring earlier) I'll have more
time to finish my hefty 'unread' bookshelf. Maybe even turn off
Kindle Unlimited again for awhile...


The use of ancient mechanisms in new military machinery is wildly
amusing to me. Physics doesn't change (much), and being able to use
old inventor's mechanisms in new ways is a great idea. Kudos.

I've also been buying and using vintage machinery all my life because
the old stuff is well designed and much cheaper than the new, while
being perfectly good for my uses. Granted, a $12k sliding table saw
makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron jobber
(followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and would
take up over half my shop.

(Yeah, I know I got off-thread here with "vintage", but, just sayin'.)

--
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle



You visit VintageMachinery.org.....
lot of kindred spirits who use "vintage" machines...

Oh for a .pdf of the 1800 movements book...
http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/H/Hi/..._movements.pdf

--
Steve W.
  #20   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Intresting Engine


"Steve W." wrote in message
...

You visit VintageMachinery.org.....
lot of kindred spirits who use "vintage" machines...

Oh for a .pdf of the 1800 movements book...
http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/H/Hi/..._movements.pdf

--
Steve W.


This vintage 1909 engine stood the test of time. Love all cams and levers.
Still fires up today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXzSZVgQwts

Best Regards
Tom.




  #21   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,888
Default Intresting Engine

"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Cydrome Leader fired this volley in
news:np04c9
:

They designed all the complex mechanical nonsense out of the
product. As
it turns out, none of that complexity was really needed in the
first
place.


But, "complexity" is not a part of an elegant mechanical design!
Folks
design stuff based on their "art" at the time. Elegance in
mechanics
peaked about 1930... It has gone down-hill ever since.urk!


I'm sure lost of this knowledge has been lost. For a long time now
I've
wondered how much effort it would take to design and built one of
those
giant mechanical calculators like banks used to have. Those things
were
absulutely insane in how complex they were and how many parts were
crammed
inside.

Even typewritters are works of art in how the actions feel nice in
operation.

a $50 VCR is pretty amazing as well, when compared to an old one
side by
side. If you consider them black boxes, the new throw away ones do
still
work better. It's amazing how the the advancements in electronics
rendered
all the other mechanical parts useless.


More specifically the advance in cheap computing power obsoleted both
mechanical control mechanisms and bulky discrete electronics such as
in older televisions. When I was learning communications electronics
in the Army in 1970 a phone line modem was the size of a 2-drawer file
cabinet. Each circuit card held two discrete transistor NAND gates.
The frequency shift modulator and demodulator were cleverly tuned
transformer / filter circuits that the instructor didn't understand.
They showed us evaluation samples of integrated circuit electronics
but we learned to repair the 1960's gear that was in wide use.

In the early 80's I built a similar frequency-shift modem the size of
a portable cassette recorder with parts from Radio Shack. The modem
and recorder were the mass storage for my home-brew computer.

As soon as fast enough analog to digital converters became affordable,
around 1990, a microcomputer could replace the remaining analog
circuitry. That enabled the digital radios I prototyped at Mitre, and
pocket-sized cell phones. The best A/Ds we could get back then were
for the new Tektronix and HP digital oscilloscopes.

On the other hand, when I was working on the color ink jet printer in
the mid 80's I halved the complexity of the electronics by a simple
mechanical rearrangement of the print head geometry.

The Army had the technology for encrypted voice and data cell phones
by 1970. The field-deployable electronics at the "cell tower" filled
six interconnected trailer trucks plus a van for the microwave radio
link, with a large Diesel generator on a trailer and at least two
dozen men and a field kitchen to support it all. We would have been a
tempting and easy target for Spetsnaz desantniki (paratroop
commandos).

--jsw


  #22   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,888
Default Intresting Engine

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:15:53 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley
in :

Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost:
http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements...

I have the four-volume set of "Ingenious mechanisms for designers
and inventors". It's just FULL of good stuff, some (small amount)
of which I've employed on my machines for the miltary.


I just saw one copy of the set on Amazon for $750, while individual
volumes start at $0.54 used. g They sound like fun. I recently
picked up Practical Electronics for Inventors but haven't gotten to
it
yet. At the end of this month (I'm retiring earlier) I'll have
more
time to finish my hefty 'unread' bookshelf. Maybe even turn off
Kindle Unlimited again for awhile...


The use of ancient mechanisms in new military machinery is wildly
amusing to me. Physics doesn't change (much), and being able to
use
old inventor's mechanisms in new ways is a great idea. Kudos.

I've also been buying and using vintage machinery all my life
because
the old stuff is well designed and much cheaper than the new, while
being perfectly good for my uses. Granted, a $12k sliding table
saw
makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron
jobber
(followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and
would
take up over half my shop. (Yeah, I know I got off-thread here
with "vintage", but, just sayin'.)

--
The great thing about getting older is that you don't lose all the
other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle



You visit VintageMachinery.org.....
lot of kindred spirits who use "vintage" machines...

Oh for a .pdf of the 1800 movements book...
http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/H/Hi/..._movements.pdf

--
Steve W.


This is the tricky mechanism to learn:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-bar_linkage

I used it on my hydraulic loader to allow the bucket to drop to 30
degrees from vertical when fully raised, to dump sticky wet snow.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/a...ttachment.html

--jsw


  #23   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Intresting Engine

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np1k70$4lj$1
@dont-email.me:

The Army had the technology for encrypted voice and data cell phones
by 1970.


We were running crypto'd voice in 1968 on Navy River Boats, over in 'Nam;
and I think they'd been using them for several years by the time I got
there.

The unit was about the size of a medium-sized benchtop oscilloscope (like a
Tek 525). We changed the 'Cac' code every day, as part of our pre-mission
checkouts.

Lloyd
  #24   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,888
Default Intresting Engine

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 4.170...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
news:np1k70$4lj$1
@dont-email.me:

The Army had the technology for encrypted voice and data cell
phones
by 1970.


We were running crypto'd voice in 1968 on Navy River Boats, over in
'Nam;
and I think they'd been using them for several years by the time I
got
there.

The unit was about the size of a medium-sized benchtop oscilloscope
(like a
Tek 525). We changed the 'Cac' code every day, as part of our
pre-mission
checkouts.

Lloyd


http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/usa/index.htm

Tactical crypto machines were smaller, lighter and less secure, since
your comms about your mission became 'stale' and useless to ambush you
once you returned to base. The good stuff, the KG-13 and KY-3, weighed
several hundred pounds.

We were safeguarding Army payroll data, which sounds silly until you
realize that -where- troops were paid was important, not how much they
made. For example Putin would really like to know if US tank
commanders started receiving their pay in Ukraine.

The Navy had a very serious leak back then:
https://news.usni.org/2014/09/02/joh...ggest-betrayal

--ave52G


  #25   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Intresting Engine

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np269q$3h8$1
@dont-email.me:

http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/usa/index.htm


The KW-7 looks darned familiar! I think that was the one we had on the
boats.

Lloyd


  #26   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,888
Default Intresting Engine

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 4.170...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
news:np269q$3h8$1
@dont-email.me:

http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/usa/index.htm


The KW-7 looks darned familiar! I think that was the one we had on
the
boats.

Lloyd


It was meant to be used with a Teletype.



  #27   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,148
Default Intresting Engine

Ed Huntress wrote:

The
"pseudo Atkinsons," like the engines in today's hybrids, have the
same-length stroke for all four parts of the cycle. But they open the
intake valve late so the cylinder is less-filled.

My only quibble is that the trick, at least on the Honda, is this also means
the intake valve CLOSES late, allowing some of the charge to be pushed back
into the intake manifold. So, the compression stroke starts with the piston
part way up the cylinder. This ends up with pretty low compression (or
cylinder pressure, if you prefer) at ignition.

I'm guessing the trick in the Nissan engine is they effectively reduce
displacement while still achieving a good cylinder pressure at low
horsepower settings. That ought to improve efficiency.

Jon
  #28   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default Intresting Engine

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:04:28 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

The
"pseudo Atkinsons," like the engines in today's hybrids, have the
same-length stroke for all four parts of the cycle. But they open the
intake valve late so the cylinder is less-filled.

My only quibble is that the trick, at least on the Honda, is this also means
the intake valve CLOSES late, allowing some of the charge to be pushed back
into the intake manifold. So, the compression stroke starts with the piston
part way up the cylinder. This ends up with pretty low compression (or
cylinder pressure, if you prefer) at ignition.

I'm guessing the trick in the Nissan engine is they effectively reduce
displacement while still achieving a good cylinder pressure at low
horsepower settings. That ought to improve efficiency.

Jon


I've never paid much attention to Atkinson engines, so I don't know
what Honda is doing. BTW, the reason usually stated for *not* using
the Atkinson cycle in regular engines is that they're not very
tractable. I have read that they're slow to respond to the throttle,
but beyond that, I don't have a clue.

There must be a lot going on with the Nissan engine, combining the
turbocharger, the variable compression, and the Arkinson cycle. They
may have published a paper on it with SAE. That's where you get the
details.

--
Ed Huntress
  #29   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Intresting Engine

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np287g$a6q$1
@dont-email.me:

It was meant to be used with a Teletype.


Well, then, that wasn't the one grin. Ours was voice.

Lloyd
  #30   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,025
Default Intresting Engine

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:18:14 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 20:17:29 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Granted, a $12k sliding table saw
makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron jobber
(followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and would
take up over half my shop.


Does the saw do what you want it to do? If not..bring it back.

(Grin)


A $12k more expensive saw makes a "slightly better cut" and you think
I want to get rid of my new used saw which I haven't yet assembled?
OK, I'll go out back and lob it in your direction. It might miss
your yard by 623 miles, but...

I wish I had it together right now. I have to build a cabinet door
for a client. A local cabinetmaker wanted $400 to do one for me. I
asked him why he thought $25 worth of wood and an hour of his time
would be worth that. It'll take me considerably longer because I
don't have his shapers and spray booth, but I'll do a hand rubbed oil
finish instead. In the interim, I'll rip with the Makita SP6000J and
route with the rail and stile set from HF. Both make very decent
cuts. http://tinyurl.com/hacsqwe and http://tinyurl.com/hlg4sto

In 2 weeks, when I retire, I'm going to start getting a usable shop
back together and add a few dozen feet more shelf space. Then maybe
I'll be able to see floor in there again. sigh

I can't wait!

--
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle


  #31   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,148
Default Intresting Engine

Ed Huntress wrote:


I've never paid much attention to Atkinson engines, so I don't know
what Honda is doing. BTW, the reason usually stated for *not* using
the Atkinson cycle in regular engines is that they're not very
tractable. I have read that they're slow to respond to the throttle,
but beyond that, I don't have a clue.

The only reason they'd be slow to respond is if the mechanism that changes
the valve timing is slow. I'm sure this is true in the Honda hybrid engine.
They put a rotary hydraulic cylinder in the intake cam sprocket, and I'm
guessing the control valve on that has a small orifice so that the computer
can keep up with the change in valve timing. I assume it has some sensor on
the cam so it can measure the valve timing every cam revolution. So, it
probably takes a dozen cam revolutions to make a large change in timing.

I can't imagine any other reason why it would be all that slow to respond.
If there was some kind of immediate angle sensor in the sprocket so the
computer had instant feedback of the valve timing, it could probably respond
a lot faster. The hybrid system masks this, you can even see it on the
battery gauge. Any time you push down on the gas pedal, the hybrid system
applies power until the ICE ramps power up, the revers if you ease up on the
pedal. it only takes 1/4 to 1/2 second to respond.
There must be a lot going on with the Nissan engine, combining the
turbocharger, the variable compression, and the Arkinson cycle. They
may have published a paper on it with SAE. That's where you get the
details.

Yup, sounds like a lot to manage.

Jon
  #32   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,148
Default Intresting Engine

wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
news:np287g$a6q$1 @dont-email.me:

It was meant to be used with a Teletype.


Well, then, that wasn't the one grin. Ours was voice.

Lloyd

Yes, KW is ciphered teleprinter, KY is ciphered voice.

Jon
  #33   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default Intresting Engine

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 16:43:46 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:


I've never paid much attention to Atkinson engines, so I don't know
what Honda is doing. BTW, the reason usually stated for *not* using
the Atkinson cycle in regular engines is that they're not very
tractable. I have read that they're slow to respond to the throttle,
but beyond that, I don't have a clue.

The only reason they'd be slow to respond is if the mechanism that changes
the valve timing is slow. I'm sure this is true in the Honda hybrid engine.
They put a rotary hydraulic cylinder in the intake cam sprocket, and I'm
guessing the control valve on that has a small orifice so that the computer
can keep up with the change in valve timing. I assume it has some sensor on
the cam so it can measure the valve timing every cam revolution. So, it
probably takes a dozen cam revolutions to make a large change in timing.

I can't imagine any other reason why it would be all that slow to respond.
If there was some kind of immediate angle sensor in the sprocket so the
computer had instant feedback of the valve timing, it could probably respond
a lot faster. The hybrid system masks this, you can even see it on the
battery gauge. Any time you push down on the gas pedal, the hybrid system
applies power until the ICE ramps power up, the revers if you ease up on the
pedal. it only takes 1/4 to 1/2 second to respond.
There must be a lot going on with the Nissan engine, combining the
turbocharger, the variable compression, and the Arkinson cycle. They
may have published a paper on it with SAE. That's where you get the
details.

Yup, sounds like a lot to manage.

Jon


I see that Nissan published several papers on the development of this
engine, but the last one I saw was from 2006. I just read the
abstract.

--
Ed Huntress
  #34   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default Intresting Engine

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 10:54:26 AM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np1k70$4lj$1
@dont-email.me:

The Army had the technology for encrypted voice and data cell phones
by 1970.


We were running crypto'd voice in 1968 on Navy River Boats, over in 'Nam;
and I think they'd been using them for several years by the time I got
there.

The unit was about the size of a medium-sized benchtop oscilloscope (like a
Tek 525). We changed the 'Cac' code every day, as part of our pre-mission
checkouts.

Lloyd


Is this similar to the control head? http://ciphermachines.com/Gallery/in...oice-Scrambler
That was the only voice scrambler I saw used on Marine aircraft in Vietnam. I figured the Navy used the same one but maybe the river boats were different? Had to change the codes at midnight every night. Code books were locked in a safe with two thermite grenades inside. If we got overrun, were supposed to set the grenades on top of the safe and set them off.

Garrett
  #35   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Intresting Engine

Garrett Fulton fired this volley in
:

Is this similar to the control head?
http://ciphermachines.com/Gallery/in...8-Voice-Scramb
ler That was the only voice scrambler I saw used on Marine aircraft in
Vietnam. I figured the Navy used the same one but maybe the river
boats were different? Had to change the codes at midnight every night.
Code books were locked in a safe with two thermite grenades inside. If
we got overrun, were supposed to set the grenades on top of the safe
and set them off.


That doesn't ring any bells, mentally. I don't know. It was a long time
ago in a land far, far away! I thought I remembered it being about half
as big as the radar head.

I remember that we had TWO forms of encryption. First was the box
itself. Then, when we had to convey specific coordinates (say, for a
strike, but NOT while under fire), we used a paper code-scrambler wheel,
which they changed-out every week.

They weren't taking any chances that Charlie could figure us out from our
radio comms.

Lloyd


  #36   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,888
Default Intresting Engine

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.170...
Garrett Fulton fired this volley in
:

Is this similar to the control head?
http://ciphermachines.com/Gallery/in...8-Voice-Scramb
ler That was the only voice scrambler I saw used on Marine aircraft
in
Vietnam. I figured the Navy used the same one but maybe the river
boats were different? Had to change the codes at midnight every
night.
Code books were locked in a safe with two thermite grenades inside.
If
we got overrun, were supposed to set the grenades on top of the
safe
and set them off.


That doesn't ring any bells, mentally. I don't know. It was a long
time
ago in a land far, far away! I thought I remembered it being about
half
as big as the radar head.

I remember that we had TWO forms of encryption. First was the box
itself. Then, when we had to convey specific coordinates (say, for
a
strike, but NOT while under fire), we used a paper code-scrambler
wheel,
which they changed-out every week.

They weren't taking any chances that Charlie could figure us out
from our
radio comms.

Lloyd


Radio Intercept was a very important weapon in the fight against
U-boots, which were required to frequently report their position so
they could be vectored toward Allied shipping.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-f...ection_finding
Although the position report was strongly encrypted, the direction
they transmitted it from told the anti-sub forces all they needed to
hunt it down. The Germans were well aware they could be located the
same way they tracked down spy transmitters in France, but they didn't
realize the British system could find them instantaneously using a
method they had dismissed as inaccurate. It -was- inaccurate from
distant land bases, but good enough when the HF/DF direction finder
was on a destroyer trailing the sub.

I heard about Spread Spectrum in 1970, though not if we used it in
small tactical radios. It makes a radio transmission indistinguishable
from static.

--jsw


  #37   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default Intresting Engine

On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 6:55:40 AM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Garrett Fulton fired this volley in
:

Is this similar to the control head?
http://ciphermachines.com/Gallery/in...8-Voice-Scramb
ler That was the only voice scrambler I saw used on Marine aircraft in
Vietnam. I figured the Navy used the same one but maybe the river
boats were different? Had to change the codes at midnight every night.
Code books were locked in a safe with two thermite grenades inside. If
we got overrun, were supposed to set the grenades on top of the safe
and set them off.


That doesn't ring any bells, mentally. I don't know. It was a long time
ago in a land far, far away! I thought I remembered it being about half
as big as the radar head.

I remember that we had TWO forms of encryption. First was the box
itself. Then, when we had to convey specific coordinates (say, for a
strike, but NOT while under fire), we used a paper code-scrambler wheel,
which they changed-out every week.

They weren't taking any chances that Charlie could figure us out from our
radio comms.

Lloyd


One thing the KY-28 units would do was to make a single "boop" sound in the headsets when you keyed the transmitter. Let you know it was ready to encrypt audio. Never saw the paper wheel units. Yeah, long time ago but it was interesting equipment.

Garrett

  #38   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Intresting Engine

Garrett Fulton fired this volley in
:

One thing the KY-28 units would do was to make a single "boop" sound
in the headsets when you keyed the transmitter. Let you know it was
ready to encrypt audio.


Yep. That was it!

Lloyd
  #39   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default Intresting Engine

On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Garrett Fulton fired this volley in
:

One thing the KY-28 units would do was to make a single "boop" sound
in the headsets when you keyed the transmitter. Let you know it was
ready to encrypt audio.


Yep. That was it!

Lloyd


Well, anyhow, a belated welcome home Sailor. Thank you for your service.
  #40   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Intresting Engine

Garrett Fulton fired this volley in
:

Well, anyhow, a belated welcome home Sailor.


Thank you, sir!
L
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
well its really intresting!!!!!!!!!!!!!! meet oza Metalworking 0 April 25th 12 01:00 PM
An intresting earthing installation Graham.[_2_] UK diy 19 March 14th 12 10:18 PM
Intresting Metalworking steamer Metalworking 1 November 16th 11 05:56 AM
O.T. Intresting; Chevron. harry Home Repair 0 February 21st 11 02:16 PM
Audio News its intresting [email protected] UK diy 0 August 21st 06 12:17 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:36 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"