On Sunday, November 29, 2015 at 8:12:23 PM UTC-5, Ned Simmons wrote:


The low CTE of Invar only applies near room temperature. At 500F its
CTE is in the range carbon steel's, and continues to increase with
increasing temperature. At 1000F Invar's CTE is close to that of other
nickel alloys like Inconel.

--
Ned Simmons


The invar with lot expansion at room temperature is 36% nickel.

Invar 42 with a slightly higher percentage of nickel has less CTE at higher temperatures. I kind of assume that the CTE at 1000F is not a problem as the yield strength ought to be low at that temperature.

Obviously Nickel 55% rod must be better or they would not make it for welding cast iron. But the Invar 42 was cheap at Boeing Surplus.

Dan

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:02:48 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, November 29, 2015 at 8:12:23 PM UTC-5, Ned Simmons wrote:


The low CTE of Invar only applies near room temperature. At 500F its
CTE is in the range carbon steel's, and continues to increase with
increasing temperature. At 1000F Invar's CTE is close to that of other
nickel alloys like Inconel.

--
Ned Simmons


The invar with lot expansion at room temperature is 36% nickel.

Invar 42 with a slightly higher percentage of nickel has less CTE at higher temperatures. I kind of assume that the CTE at 1000F is not a problem as the yield strength ought to be low at that temperature.

Obviously Nickel 55% rod must be better or they would not make it for welding cast iron. But the Invar 42 was cheap at Boeing Surplus.

Dan

I'm curious about why one would want to weld with Invar. The iron
you're welding with it has a very different thermal coefficient of
expansion. It seems likely that a gray-iron/Invar joint is going to be
under stress from differential expansion at ALL temperatures except
for one.

Or what?

--
Ed Huntress

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 8:29:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:02:48 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, November 29, 2015 at 8:12:23 PM UTC-5, Ned Simmons wrote:


The low CTE of Invar only applies near room temperature. At 500F its
CTE is in the range carbon steel's, and continues to increase with
increasing temperature. At 1000F Invar's CTE is close to that of other
nickel alloys like Inconel.

--
Ned Simmons


The invar with lot expansion at room temperature is 36% nickel.

Invar 42 with a slightly higher percentage of nickel has less CTE at higher temperatures. I kind of assume that the CTE at 1000F is not a problem as the yield strength ought to be low at that temperature.

Obviously Nickel 55% rod must be better or they would not make it for welding cast iron. But the Invar 42 was cheap at Boeing Surplus.

Dan

I'm curious about why one would want to weld with Invar. The iron
you're welding with it has a very different thermal coefficient of
expansion. It seems likely that a gray-iron/Invar joint is going to be
under stress from differential expansion at ALL temperatures except
for one.

Or what?

--
Ed Huntress

Why would you want to weld with nickel 55? Invar 42 is kind of close to Nickel 55. It is 42 % nickel, while the nickel 55 is 55 %. The Invar is not as high in nickel as Nickel 55 but it is relatively close.

One definition of an engineer is somebody that can make what any fool can make, but the engineer can make it cheaper. In this case the Invar 42 came from Boeing Surplus and was as I remember a dollar a lb. I would have picked up a bunch of Nickel 55 and Nickel 99 , but I never saw any at Boeing Surplus.

Looking on line , I found a place that sells Nickel 55 for $22 per half lb.
So if the Invar 42 will work, it will save Terry relatively a bunch of money.

You are better at finding information on the internet than I am. If you can find anything that explains why Nickel 55 is good for welding cast iron ( as opposed to 50 % nickel or 60 % nickel ) let me know about it. I have looked but not found anything that explains why everyone sells nickel 55 for welding cast iron and not some other percentage. There must be a reason, but I have not found it.

Dan

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:42:35 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 8:29:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:02:48 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, November 29, 2015 at 8:12:23 PM UTC-5, Ned Simmons wrote:


The low CTE of Invar only applies near room temperature. At 500F its
CTE is in the range carbon steel's, and continues to increase with
increasing temperature. At 1000F Invar's CTE is close to that of other
nickel alloys like Inconel.

--
Ned Simmons


The invar with lot expansion at room temperature is 36% nickel.

Invar 42 with a slightly higher percentage of nickel has less CTE at higher temperatures. I kind of assume that the CTE at 1000F is not a problem as the yield strength ought to be low at that temperature.

Obviously Nickel 55% rod must be better or they would not make it for welding cast iron. But the Invar 42 was cheap at Boeing Surplus.

Dan

I'm curious about why one would want to weld with Invar. The iron
you're welding with it has a very different thermal coefficient of
expansion. It seems likely that a gray-iron/Invar joint is going to be
under stress from differential expansion at ALL temperatures except
for one.

Or what?

--
Ed Huntress

Why would you want to weld with nickel 55? Invar 42 is kind of close to Nickel 55. It is 42 % nickel, while the nickel 55 is 55 %. The Invar is not as high in nickel as Nickel 55 but it is relatively close.

One definition of an engineer is somebody that can make what any fool can make, but the engineer can make it cheaper. In this case the Invar 42 came from Boeing Surplus and was as I remember a dollar a lb. I would have picked up a bunch of Nickel 55 and Nickel 99 , but I never saw any at Boeing Surplus.

Looking on line , I found a place that sells Nickel 55 for $22 per half lb.
So if the Invar 42 will work, it will save Terry relatively a bunch of money.

You are better at finding information on the internet than I am. If you can find anything that explains why Nickel 55 is good for welding cast iron ( as opposed to 50 % nickel or 60 % nickel ) let me know about it. I have looked but not found anything that explains why everyone sells nickel 55 for welding cast iron and not some other percentage. There must be a reason, but I have not found it.

Dan

If I get the time, I'll call one of the experts at Miller, Lincoln, or
Hobart and try to get the full story. For now, here's what Lincoln
says:

"Choosing Stick Electrodes for Welding Cast Iron"

"When do I use Lincoln Softweld® 99Ni, 55Ni and Ferroweld®
electrodes?"

"Choosing electrodes for welding cast iron typically comes down to
three things: cost, machine-ability, and whether the weld is single or
multiple pass.

"Softweld 99Ni (AWS class ENi-CI) is a nominally 99% Nickel electrode.
Nickel is expensive, and so, therefore, is this premium electrode. The
electrode will deposit welds that are machine-able, an important
consideration when the casting is to be machined after welding.
Repairs made with Softweld 99Ni are often single pass welds with high
admixture. Even with high admixture, the weld deposit will remain
machine-able. It works best on castings with low or medium phosphorous
contents.

"Softweld 55Ni (AWS class ENiFe-CI)is a nominally 55% Nickel
electrode. The lower Nickel content makes this electrode more
economical than Softweld 99Ni. Weld deposits are usually machine-able,
but under conditions of high admixture, the welds can become hard and
difficult to machine. It is often used for repairing castings with
heavy or thick sections. As compared to Softweld 99Ni, welds made with
55 Ni are stronger and more ductile, and more tolerant of phosphorous
in the casting. It also has a lower coefficient of expansion than
99Ni, resulting in fewer fusion line cracks.

"Ferroweld (AWS class ESt) is a lower cost, steel electrode. The weld
deposits are hard, and are not machine-able, but can be finished by
grinding. This is the lowest cost electrode for welding cast iron, and
the electrode has a very user-friendly arc. It can tolerate welding on
castings that cannot be completely cleaned before welding. Ferroweld
deposits will rust, just like cast iron. This may be important when
repairing cast iron parts such as exhaust manifolds on antique cars."

I think that welding cast iron has had enough written about it to fill
a book. But this is a subject on which I'd want to talk to an expert,
to fill in some of the questions that the books don't answer.

--
Ed Huntress

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 1:29:58 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:

I think that welding cast iron has had enough written about it to fill
a book. But this is a subject on which I'd want to talk to an expert,
to fill in some of the questions that the books don't answer.

--
Ed Huntress

I think one of the problems is that each welding job on cast iron needs to be thought about and evaluated. In some cases the contraction of the weld material will not cause a problem. And example is when you are welding two pieces together. In other cases the contraction will put stress on the cast iron. Like welding a spoke that broke on a spoked gear.

Dan

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:03:44 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 1:29:58 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:

I think that welding cast iron has had enough written about it to fill
a book. But this is a subject on which I'd want to talk to an expert,
to fill in some of the questions that the books don't answer.

--
Ed Huntress

I think one of the problems is that each welding job on cast iron needs to be thought about and evaluated. In some cases the contraction of the weld material will not cause a problem. And example is when you are welding two pieces together. In other cases the contraction will put stress on the cast iron. Like welding a spoke that broke on a spoked gear.

Dan

I'm curious about whether there is a good non-destructive way to
measure the post-weld stress. I recall something about an exotic lab
technique, which I read about years ago, but maybe there is something
newer.

Anyway, I have to talk to the people at Lincoln pretty soon, so I'll
see if I can remember to ask about these things.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:03:44 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 1:29:58 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:

I think that welding cast iron has had enough written about it to
fill a book. But this is a subject on which I'd want to talk to an
expert, to fill in some of the questions that the books don't
answer.

--
Ed Huntress

I think one of the problems is that each welding job on cast iron
needs to be thought about and evaluated. In some cases the
contraction of the weld material will not cause a problem. And
example is when you are welding two pieces together. In other
cases the contraction will put stress on the cast iron. Like
welding a spoke that broke on a spoked gear.

Dan

I'm curious about whether there is a good non-destructive way to
measure the post-weld stress. I recall something about an exotic lab
technique, which I read about years ago, but maybe there is something
newer.

Anyway, I have to talk to the people at Lincoln pretty soon, so I'll
see if I can remember to ask about these things.

Geez , I never meant to cause all this stir ... OK , today I did some
testing . My neighbor gave me a broken CI door from an old stove , so I cut
it up ... I cut some strips about 1/8 square and used some of that to run
some test beads on a piece of the door . I also ran some test beads on the
same piece with the NILO CF42 for comparison . Photos of the test piece will
be posted to photobucket when I get a few minutes to resize and select .
After trying both out on the scrap of CI I welded up the broken faucet
head , with mixed results . I decided to do it without preheat ... started
with the CI strips , ran into problems on the inside corner (those still
give me problems with TIG) and decided to finish with the NILO . I should
have preheated I think , there is what appears to be a hairline crack thru
part of the repair . Photos of that repair (before and after) will also be
posted when I get time to process them . The results of my tests are that if
I need to build up a CI edge or lip I'll use either one , but for crack
repair the NILO seems to give a better looking repair and is easier to use .
I will be using preheat and light peening as the welds cool when I repair
the stove grate . Decision of which filler will be made when I see the part
..

--
Snag

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:14:53 -0600, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:03:44 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 1:29:58 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:

I think that welding cast iron has had enough written about it to
fill a book. But this is a subject on which I'd want to talk to an
expert, to fill in some of the questions that the books don't
answer.

--
Ed Huntress

I think one of the problems is that each welding job on cast iron
needs to be thought about and evaluated. In some cases the
contraction of the weld material will not cause a problem. And
example is when you are welding two pieces together. In other
cases the contraction will put stress on the cast iron. Like
welding a spoke that broke on a spoked gear.

Dan

I'm curious about whether there is a good non-destructive way to
measure the post-weld stress. I recall something about an exotic lab
technique, which I read about years ago, but maybe there is something
newer.

Anyway, I have to talk to the people at Lincoln pretty soon, so I'll
see if I can remember to ask about these things.

Geez , I never meant to cause all this stir ...

Hey, this is the kind of stir we're here for. d8-) Welding c.i. has
always been a really tough issue, and one that raises all kinds of
questions. I'm sure that many of us wish we knew more about it. Advice
tends to lead in all directions.

FWIW, years ago (1980s) I read about a c.i. welding job that would
make anyone sweat bullets. Harrah's automobile collection included one
of the few Bugatti Royales ever built -- there are only a few of them
in existence, and they are truly in the "priceless" category -- and it
had a cracked c.i. block. So they imported a guy from Italy who was
supposedly the best at crack repairs in classic car engines. Not only
did it have to be sound, but it had to be nearly invisible.

He used O/A (with lots of pre-heat, no doubt) and a cast iron rod.
After he welded it up, they put the engine together, started it, ran
it for a few seconds, and then shut it down, never to be run again.
Supposedly.

OK , today I did some
testing . My neighbor gave me a broken CI door from an old stove , so I cut
it up ... I cut some strips about 1/8 square and used some of that to run
some test beads on a piece of the door . I also ran some test beads on the
same piece with the NILO CF42 for comparison . Photos of the test piece will
be posted to photobucket when I get a few minutes to resize and select .
After trying both out on the scrap of CI I welded up the broken faucet
head , with mixed results . I decided to do it without preheat ... started
with the CI strips , ran into problems on the inside corner (those still
give me problems with TIG) and decided to finish with the NILO . I should
have preheated I think , there is what appears to be a hairline crack thru
part of the repair . Photos of that repair (before and after) will also be
posted when I get time to process them . The results of my tests are that if
I need to build up a CI edge or lip I'll use either one , but for crack
repair the NILO seems to give a better looking repair and is easier to use .
I will be using preheat and light peening as the welds cool when I repair
the stove grate . Decision of which filler will be made when I see the part
.

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 5:14:29 PM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:


Geez , I never meant to cause all this stir ... OK , today I did some
testing . My neighbor gave me a broken CI door from an old stove , so I cut
it up ... I cut some strips about 1/8 square and used some of that to run
some test beads on a piece of the door . I also ran some test beads on the
same piece with the NILO CF42 for comparison .
--
Snag

Hey it is nice to have an on topic thread that is interesting.

Dan

wrote:
On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 5:14:29 PM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:


Geez , I never meant to cause all this stir ... OK , today I did
some testing . My neighbor gave me a broken CI door from an old
stove , so I cut it up ... I cut some strips about 1/8 square and
used some of that to run some test beads on a piece of the door . I
also ran some test beads on the same piece with the NILO CF42 for
comparison . --
Snag

Hey it is nice to have an on topic thread that is interesting.

Dan

Aw shucks ...
--
Snag

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:36:57 -0800 (PST)
" wrote:

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 5:14:29 PM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:


Geez , I never meant to cause all this stir ... OK , today I did some
testing . My neighbor gave me a broken CI door from an old stove , so I cut
it up ... I cut some strips about 1/8 square and used some of that to run
some test beads on a piece of the door . I also ran some test beads on the
same piece with the NILO CF42 for comparison .
--
Snag

Hey it is nice to have an on topic thread that is interesting.

Dan

ChuckE2009 made a youtube video awhile back doing all the wrong things
to weld cast iron. Thought it was kind of interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXhplIOl3aI

Of course he has some proper method videos too

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
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