From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?


Jon

On 9/10/2015 4:06 PM, Jon Anderson wrote:

Jon
welcome o to the world of work health and safety in Australia .
It's way over the top regulated by people who have no idea about working
in the real world .

Until recently I was employed on a Defence establishment here and the
WHS there is regulated by Comcare a branch of the Federal Govt .
Thier inspectors came into the machine shop and ended up closing it down .
They wanted a guard around the cutter spindle on a manual milling
machine , dead stop foot switches for the pedestal grinders , the work
shop manually operated press fully guarded and a stack of other
rediculous things.
I questioned the inspectors as to thier experinece in a machine shop and
both admitted they knew nothing about operating any of the machinery or
had the knowledge or training to do so.
All of thier wants came out of a WHS safety manual that they were
porting around obviously written by some one with the same knowledge and
skill level as the two inspectors.

Eventaully we got all of the stuff done , the spindle guard for the mill
is only used when the inspectors are around , the grinder foot control
off switches are not dead stop but can be used to turn off the machine.
( imagine what a 14" griding wheel would do if it came to a dead stop
from full speed).The press has guards which need to be removed before it
can be safley used.

Yes we are now under the control of the WHS stazi and all it does is
cause frustration and drives the cost of making any thing through the
roof.





From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?


Jon

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:36:32 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?


Jon

https://californiasafety.org/course.aspx?id=23

"NOTE: You may have heard the terms, "forklift certified",
"OSHA-certified" or "forklift license". OSHA/CAL-OSHA does not certify
or require certification and there is no such thing as a license for
driving a forklift. OSHA/CAL-OSHA requires specific training conducted
by a qualified person and documentation of that training."

http://blog.arrowstaffing.com/2014/0...on-california/

How to Get Forklift Certification in California
February 5th, 2014

Many job listings for forklift operators say they want “certified”
forklift operators.

That’s a bit misleading because the California office of the U.S.
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (Cal/OSHA) does not
certify, nor does it require certification to drive a forklift. In
addition, a “license” to drive a forklift doesn’t exist.

However – and this is big – Cal/OSHA does require that those driving
forklifts receive specific forklift training from a “qualified”
person. Cal/OSHA also requires documentation of that training.

So when you see an ad that says “certified forklift operator wanted,”
what the company really is asking for are applicants who can show
documentation that they’ve been trained by the “qualified’ person.

In addition, even if you can show that documentation, Cal/OSHA
requires your new employer to conduct training specific to your new
employer’s work site before you’ll be allowed on a forklift.

So how can you get the training by the “qualified” person?

Many companies exist in and around the Inland Empire that provide
Cal/OSHA-approved forklift operation training. You can get this
training on your own, prior to being hired by a company, but talk to
your employer first – many have agreements or have signed up with
training companies to train their employees.

Training is usually relatively short – a day or half-day – and
includes classroom as well as hands-on operation of a forklift. Some
companies provide the “classroom” training online, but you will need
to sit and operate a real forklift to pass the training and receive
the all-important documentation that you’ve done so.
- See more at:
http://blog.arrowstaffing.com/2014/0....wAW4mSGh.dpuf

heh, meant to reply here, went PM instead...

Jon

Gunner,

Keyboard biff, accidentally deleted your post while responding.
After what I learned here, thought there probably was something similar
there, and just not really surprised given the nature of small job
shops, that none were the least into such things.
Of course, warehouses and large facilities are a bit different.


Jon

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:36:32 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?

License? Who needs a license? I mean, what's the worst that could
happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4GKm-Vp3c

A $38 cert looks to be cheaper than a stiff OSHA fine, both for the
boss and driver.

--
Cats regard people as warmblooded furniture.
-- Jacquelyn Mitchard

On 10/9/2015 11:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

License? Who needs a license? I mean, what's the worst that could
happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4GKm-Vp3c

Haha, I've been watching forklift accident videos. Man, there's some
read idiots out there.
We're undergoing massive expansion, contractors everywhere. Dirt road
around the backside of the plant passes under one of the two high
voltage lines feeding the plant. One contractor has touched the wires
twice with their crane. Same operator. lol...


Jon

On 2015-10-09, Bluey69 wrote:
On 9/10/2015 4:06 PM, Jon Anderson wrote:

Jon
welcome o to the world of work health and safety in Australia .
It's way over the top regulated by people who have no idea about working
in the real world .

Until recently I was employed on a Defence establishment here and the
WHS there is regulated by Comcare a branch of the Federal Govt .
Thier inspectors came into the machine shop and ended up closing it down .
They wanted a guard around the cutter spindle on a manual milling
machine , dead stop foot switches for the pedestal grinders , the work
shop manually operated press fully guarded and a stack of other
rediculous things.
I questioned the inspectors as to thier experinece in a machine shop and
both admitted they knew nothing about operating any of the machinery or
had the knowledge or training to do so.
All of thier wants came out of a WHS safety manual that they were
porting around obviously written by some one with the same knowledge and
skill level as the two inspectors.

Eventaully we got all of the stuff done , the spindle guard for the mill
is only used when the inspectors are around , the grinder foot control
off switches are not dead stop but can be used to turn off the machine.
( imagine what a 14" griding wheel would do if it came to a dead stop
from full speed).The press has guards which need to be removed before it
can be safley used.

Yes we are now under the control of the WHS stazi and all it does is
cause frustration and drives the cost of making any thing through the
roof.

This sounds pretty crazy.

You can stop a grinder pretty quick if you put it on a VFD with
electronic braking.

i

On 2015-10-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:36:32 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?

License? Who needs a license? I mean, what's the worst that could
happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4GKm-Vp3c

I thought that it was a Russian vodka warehouse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ZmOgMlyRE

A $38 cert looks to be cheaper than a stiff OSHA fine, both for the
boss and driver.

I do not see how a certificate could prevent what happened.

A floor guard, maybe would work.

i

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:51:24 -0500, Ignoramus17325
wrote:

On 2015-10-09, Bluey69 wrote:
On 9/10/2015 4:06 PM, Jon Anderson wrote:

Jon
welcome o to the world of work health and safety in Australia .
It's way over the top regulated by people who have no idea about working
in the real world .

Until recently I was employed on a Defence establishment here and the
WHS there is regulated by Comcare a branch of the Federal Govt .
Thier inspectors came into the machine shop and ended up closing it down .
They wanted a guard around the cutter spindle on a manual milling
machine , dead stop foot switches for the pedestal grinders , the work
shop manually operated press fully guarded and a stack of other
rediculous things.
I questioned the inspectors as to thier experinece in a machine shop and
both admitted they knew nothing about operating any of the machinery or
had the knowledge or training to do so.
All of thier wants came out of a WHS safety manual that they were
porting around obviously written by some one with the same knowledge and
skill level as the two inspectors.

Eventaully we got all of the stuff done , the spindle guard for the mill
is only used when the inspectors are around , the grinder foot control
off switches are not dead stop but can be used to turn off the machine.
( imagine what a 14" griding wheel would do if it came to a dead stop
from full speed).The press has guards which need to be removed before it
can be safley used.

Yes we are now under the control of the WHS stazi and all it does is
cause frustration and drives the cost of making any thing through the
roof.

This sounds pretty crazy.

You can stop a grinder pretty quick if you put it on a VFD with
electronic braking.

i

Stuff like that goes on all over the developed world. A press brake
light curtain that's required in Europe is not accepted in the US, and
vice-versa.

It's almost comical.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:54:39 -0500, Ignoramus17325
wrote:

On 2015-10-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:36:32 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?

License? Who needs a license? I mean, what's the worst that could
happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4GKm-Vp3c

I thought that it was a Russian vodka warehouse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ZmOgMlyRE

A $38 cert looks to be cheaper than a stiff OSHA fine, both for the
boss and driver.

I do not see how a certificate could prevent what happened.

A floor guard, maybe would work.

i
================

Indeed, a certificate only shows an individual has been
exposed to specific education/training, and possibly passed
some sort of test.

The basic assumption is that when people know better they
will do better.

This appears to be correct for the majority, but there is
always the odd individual who is stubborn and/or stupid, and
the individual who gets careless or in a hurry. It is
managements' responsibility to correct this, which can be a
problem if the odd individual is the supervision/management.

While there are still "incidents," from the available cost
data it appears investment in [re]training, including short
"refresher" courses about occupational hazards has a high
return, by reducing equipment and product damage, employee
death and injury, and liability for customer injury, for
example food born illness.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On 10/9/2015 12:46 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
[...]

You did this:
http://64.253.133.219/dbin/courses/f...a-forklift.jpg

F. George McDuffee fired this volley
in :


While there are still "incidents," from the available cost
data it appears investment in [re]training, including short
"refresher" courses about occupational hazards has a high
return, by reducing equipment and product damage, employee
death and injury, and liability for customer injury, for
example food born illness.


No less frequently than annually, we gave a full-day seminar on safety,
handling, and general precautions regarding fireworks and fireworks
compositions. Sometimes, depending upon how many new employees we'd
hired, we'd give them every three months. Yes, each new employee was
given a one-on-one lesson in such, although the more spectacular (and
expensive) demos were reserved for the formal group reviews.

The new employees were awed by the 'accident' demos, and the older
employees enjoyed the refresher, the luncheon, and the day's pay without
actually having to 'work' for it.

We also had a company-wide policy that ANY employee, including the most
junior recruits could stop any process being done by _anyone_ (even their
own supervisor or a manager), if they perceived it as dangerous. We had
a protocol to resolve such stoppages, which occurred only four or five
times in the ten+ years I managed the company.

The two methods together paid monumental dividends.

Lloyd

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:36:21 +0930, Bluey69
wrote:

snip
Yes we are now under the control of the WHS stazi and all it does is
cause frustration and drives the cost of making any thing through the
roof.
/snip
=====================

A good example of what I have referred to before as
enterprise v holistic/aggregate accounting.

An enterprise logically attempts to maximize their cost
externalization [foisting their costs off on someone else,
generally the taxpayer]. Such costs can include those
resulting from on-the-job injuries, i. e. long-term
disability or death benefits.

On the other hand, it is impossible to externalize costs
with holistic / aggregate accounting, thus the divergence in
conclusions.

Indeed, this can be extended to "executives" in that they
can realize a short term "profit" by skimping on maintenance
and safety equipment so as to put the entire enterprise
(stockholders' investment capital), as well as individual
employees, at increased risk, e. g.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...813-story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_...nery_explosion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_..._Mine_disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sago_Mine_disaster

It is suggested that the total effect of safety regulations
on a national economy should be considered, not just the
momentary short-term effect on a specific enterprise or
economic sector, as this is highly misleading.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 9:54:42 AM UTC-4, Ignoramus17325 wrote:

I do not see how a certificate could prevent what happened.

A certificate, of course, would not prevent such an accident. It would, however, satisfy the authorities and the insurance companies that you, as an employer, took reasonable measures (by getting your employees certified) to avoid the incident.

Just as you wouldn't send an unlicensed driver out in your company truck it would be foolish to invite wrath from above to save $38.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 4.170...
F. George McDuffee fired this
volley
in :


While there are still "incidents," from the available cost
data it appears investment in [re]training, including short
"refresher" courses about occupational hazards has a high
return, by reducing equipment and product damage, employee
death and injury, and liability for customer injury, for
example food born illness.


No less frequently than annually, we gave a full-day seminar on
safety,
handling, and general precautions regarding fireworks and fireworks
compositions. Sometimes, depending upon how many new employees we'd
hired, we'd give them every three months. Yes, each new employee was
given a one-on-one lesson in such, although the more spectacular
(and
expensive) demos were reserved for the formal group reviews.

The new employees were awed by the 'accident' demos, and the older
employees enjoyed the refresher, the luncheon, and the day's pay
without
actually having to 'work' for it.

We also had a company-wide policy that ANY employee, including the
most
junior recruits could stop any process being done by _anyone_ (even
their
own supervisor or a manager), if they perceived it as dangerous. We
had
a protocol to resolve such stoppages, which occurred only four or
five
times in the ten+ years I managed the company.

The two methods together paid monumental dividends.

Lloyd

Can you comment on the Black Mag accident?

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:mv8ohq$ndr$1
@dont-email.me:

Can you comment on the Black Mag accident?

Refresh me. I don't know of one called "black mag"... Do you mean MINE,
in the ball mill/mixer?

Lloyd

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 10:19:06 -0500, F. George McDuffee wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:36:21 +0930, Bluey69
wrote:

snip
Yes we are now under the control of the WHS stazi and all it does is
cause frustration and drives the cost of making any thing through the
roof.
/snip
=====================

A good example of what I have referred to before as enterprise v
holistic/aggregate accounting.

An enterprise logically attempts to maximize their cost externalization
[foisting their costs off on someone else,
generally the taxpayer]. Such costs can include those resulting from
on-the-job injuries, i. e. long-term disability or death benefits.

On the other hand, it is impossible to externalize costs with holistic /
aggregate accounting, thus the divergence in conclusions.

Indeed, this can be extended to "executives" in that they can realize a
short term "profit" by skimping on maintenance and safety equipment so
as to put the entire enterprise (stockholders' investment capital), as
well as individual employees, at increased risk, e. g.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...obil-refinery-
explosion-20150813-story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_...nery_explosion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_..._Mine_disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sago_Mine_disaster

It is suggested that the total effect of safety regulations on a
national economy should be considered, not just the momentary short-term
effect on a specific enterprise or economic sector, as this is highly
misleading.

I agree wholeheartedly, but it should apply both ways -- having someone
who doesn't understand the machining process rendering a machine useless
with unnecessary "safety" features doesn't help anyone. More
specifically, if the "safety" feature needs to be defeated to get work
done, and the machine + defeated safety feature is less safe, then the
"safety" feature becomes a detriment to both safety and long-term cost.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.170...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
news:mv8ohq$ndr$1
@dont-email.me:

Can you comment on the Black Mag accident?

Refresh me. I don't know of one called "black mag"... Do you mean
MINE,
in the ball mill/mixer?

Lloyd

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...S&p_id=2 0169

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:51:24 -0500, Ignoramus17325
wrote:

On 2015-10-09, Bluey69 wrote:
On 9/10/2015 4:06 PM, Jon Anderson wrote:

Jon
welcome o to the world of work health and safety in Australia .
It's way over the top regulated by people who have no idea about working
in the real world .

Until recently I was employed on a Defence establishment here and the
WHS there is regulated by Comcare a branch of the Federal Govt .
Thier inspectors came into the machine shop and ended up closing it down .
They wanted a guard around the cutter spindle on a manual milling
machine , dead stop foot switches for the pedestal grinders , the work
shop manually operated press fully guarded and a stack of other
rediculous things.
I questioned the inspectors as to thier experinece in a machine shop and
both admitted they knew nothing about operating any of the machinery or
had the knowledge or training to do so.
All of thier wants came out of a WHS safety manual that they were
porting around obviously written by some one with the same knowledge and
skill level as the two inspectors.

Eventaully we got all of the stuff done , the spindle guard for the mill
is only used when the inspectors are around , the grinder foot control
off switches are not dead stop but can be used to turn off the machine.
( imagine what a 14" griding wheel would do if it came to a dead stop
from full speed).The press has guards which need to be removed before it
can be safley used.

Yes we are now under the control of the WHS stazi and all it does is
cause frustration and drives the cost of making any thing through the
roof.

This sounds pretty crazy.

You can stop a grinder pretty quick if you put it on a VFD with
electronic braking.

i

Assuming the grinder is 3ph. Most are not.

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 07:58:15 -0700, "...and the dish ran away with the
spoon" wrote:

On 10/9/2015 12:46 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
[...]

You did this:
http://64.253.133.219/dbin/courses/f...a-forklift.jpg

http://s250.photobucket.com/user/dep...l?t=1242017688

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:10:14 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Gunner,

Keyboard biff, accidentally deleted your post while responding.
After what I learned here, thought there probably was something similar
there, and just not really surprised given the nature of small job
shops, that none were the least into such things.
Of course, warehouses and large facilities are a bit different.


Jon

https://californiasafety.org/course.aspx?id=23

"NOTE: You may have heard the terms, "forklift certified",
"OSHA-certified" or "forklift license". OSHA/CAL-OSHA does not certify
or require certification and there is no such thing as a license for
driving a forklift. OSHA/CAL-OSHA requires specific training conducted
by a qualified person and documentation of that training."

http://blog.arrowstaffing.com/2014/0...on-california/

How to Get Forklift Certification in California
February 5th, 2014

Many job listings for forklift operators say they want “certified”
forklift operators.

That’s a bit misleading because the California office of the U.S.
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (Cal/OSHA) does not
certify, nor does it require certification to drive a forklift. In
addition, a “license” to drive a forklift doesn’t exist.

However – and this is big – Cal/OSHA does require that those driving
forklifts receive specific forklift training from a “qualified”
person. Cal/OSHA also requires documentation of that training.

So when you see an ad that says “certified forklift operator wanted,”
what the company really is asking for are applicants who can show
documentation that they’ve been trained by the “qualified’ person.

In addition, even if you can show that documentation, Cal/OSHA
requires your new employer to conduct training specific to your new
employer’s work site before you’ll be allowed on a forklift.

So how can you get the training by the “qualified” person?

Many companies exist in and around the Inland Empire that provide
Cal/OSHA-approved forklift operation training. You can get this
training on your own, prior to being hired by a company, but talk to
your employer first – many have agreements or have signed up with
training companies to train their employees.

Training is usually relatively short – a day or half-day – and
includes classroom as well as hands-on operation of a forklift. Some
companies provide the “classroom” training online, but you will need
to sit and operate a real forklift to pass the training and receive
the all-important documentation that you’ve done so.
- See more at:
http://blog.arrowstaffing.com/2014/0....wAW4mSGh.dpuf

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
message .170...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
news:mv8ohq$ndr$1
@dont-email.me:

Can you comment on the Black Mag accident?

Refresh me. I don't know of one called "black mag"... Do you mean
MINE,
in the ball mill/mixer?

Lloyd

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...S&p_id=2 0169



Here is the list of deficiencies:
https://www.osha.gov/dep/citations/blackmag.pdf
"The employer did not provide properly designed catch pans to prevent
spillage of
explosives and other hazardous materials in the processing areas. The
employer spread
paper on the floor to capture spillage of explosive materials."

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:mv9crs$9dd
:

Can you comment on the Black Mag accident?

I read up on it. Apparently, the major infraction was storing more
explosive materials than were allowed under the license, and further,
more than was prudent for the situation.

Obviously, from the severity of the blast, the amount of explosive
materials in the processing area was dangerously excessive.

We went to great lengths to have stockmen _continually_ remove processed
items from our assembly buildings, in order not to exceed the allowable
(or safe) weights. We chose to err on the side of 'safe', keeping levels
far below what the regulations required.

We never had one, but I think if we'd had an explosion during assembly,
only the one operator involved would have had any injuries, at all. And
I believe those would have been non-fatal. That was our intent, at
least.

Lloyd

Lloyd

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:36:32 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?


Jon
Don't know about ASA but all are required anywhere here in Canada.

The company that put up the stacks are in trouble. None
were tied to prevent tipping. Racks might have been overloaded.

Looked home brew cheap design.

Martin

On 10/9/2015 7:14 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:36:32 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?

License? Who needs a license? I mean, what's the worst that could
happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4GKm-Vp3c

A $38 cert looks to be cheaper than a stiff OSHA fine, both for the
boss and driver.

--
Cats regard people as warmblooded furniture.
-- Jacquelyn Mitchard

On 2015-10-09, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:51:24 -0500, Ignoramus17325
wrote:

On 2015-10-09, Bluey69 wrote:
On 9/10/2015 4:06 PM, Jon Anderson wrote:

Jon
welcome o to the world of work health and safety in Australia .
It's way over the top regulated by people who have no idea about working
in the real world .

Until recently I was employed on a Defence establishment here and the
WHS there is regulated by Comcare a branch of the Federal Govt .
Thier inspectors came into the machine shop and ended up closing it down .
They wanted a guard around the cutter spindle on a manual milling
machine , dead stop foot switches for the pedestal grinders , the work
shop manually operated press fully guarded and a stack of other
rediculous things.
I questioned the inspectors as to thier experinece in a machine shop and
both admitted they knew nothing about operating any of the machinery or
had the knowledge or training to do so.
All of thier wants came out of a WHS safety manual that they were
porting around obviously written by some one with the same knowledge and
skill level as the two inspectors.

Eventaully we got all of the stuff done , the spindle guard for the mill
is only used when the inspectors are around , the grinder foot control
off switches are not dead stop but can be used to turn off the machine.
( imagine what a 14" griding wheel would do if it came to a dead stop
from full speed).The press has guards which need to be removed before it
can be safley used.

Yes we are now under the control of the WHS stazi and all it does is
cause frustration and drives the cost of making any thing through the
roof.

This sounds pretty crazy.

You can stop a grinder pretty quick if you put it on a VFD with
electronic braking.

i

Stuff like that goes on all over the developed world. A press brake
light curtain that's required in Europe is not accepted in the US, and
vice-versa.

It's almost comical.


I agree that it is comical, and I also find it comical to see the
extent to which "small business" disregards any rules when nobody is
watching.

i

On 2015-10-09, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:54:39 -0500, Ignoramus17325
wrote:

On 2015-10-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:36:32 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?

License? Who needs a license? I mean, what's the worst that could
happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4GKm-Vp3c

I thought that it was a Russian vodka warehouse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ZmOgMlyRE

A $38 cert looks to be cheaper than a stiff OSHA fine, both for the
boss and driver.

I do not see how a certificate could prevent what happened.

A floor guard, maybe would work.

i
================

Indeed, a certificate only shows an individual has been
exposed to specific education/training, and possibly passed
some sort of test.

The basic assumption is that when people know better they
will do better.

Well, **** happens. A good person may have a bad day. Maybe he meant
to floor the brake pedal , but accidentally hit gas. This is why they
invented guardrails and pallet rack guards.

This appears to be correct for the majority, but there is
always the odd individual who is stubborn and/or stupid, and
the individual who gets careless or in a hurry. It is
managements' responsibility to correct this, which can be a
problem if the odd individual is the supervision/management.

Right

i

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 4:10:32 PM UTC-4, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:51:24 -0500, Ignoramus17325
wrote:

On 2015-10-09, Bluey69 wrote:
On 9/10/2015 4:06 PM, Jon Anderson wrote:

Jon
welcome o to the world of work health and safety in Australia .
It's way over the top regulated by people who have no idea about working
in the real world .

Until recently I was employed on a Defence establishment here and the
WHS there is regulated by Comcare a branch of the Federal Govt .
Thier inspectors came into the machine shop and ended up closing it down .
They wanted a guard around the cutter spindle on a manual milling
machine , dead stop foot switches for the pedestal grinders , the work
shop manually operated press fully guarded and a stack of other
rediculous things.
I questioned the inspectors as to thier experinece in a machine shop and
both admitted they knew nothing about operating any of the machinery or
had the knowledge or training to do so.
All of thier wants came out of a WHS safety manual that they were
porting around obviously written by some one with the same knowledge and
skill level as the two inspectors.

Eventaully we got all of the stuff done , the spindle guard for the mill
is only used when the inspectors are around , the grinder foot control
off switches are not dead stop but can be used to turn off the machine.
( imagine what a 14" griding wheel would do if it came to a dead stop
from full speed).The press has guards which need to be removed before it
can be safley used.

Yes we are now under the control of the WHS stazi and all it does is
cause frustration and drives the cost of making any thing through the
roof.

This sounds pretty crazy.

You can stop a grinder pretty quick if you put it on a VFD with
electronic braking.

i

Assuming the grinder is 3ph. Most are not.

Feed DC into the running single phase motor (just switch a diode in series) and it will stop in a big hurry.

On 10/10/2015 2:02 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

We also had a company-wide policy that ANY employee, including the most
junior recruits could stop any process being done by _anyone_ (even their
own supervisor or a manager), if they perceived it as dangerous. We had
a protocol to resolve such stoppages, which occurred only four or five
times in the ten+ years I managed the company.

The two methods together paid monumental dividends.

Nice, that's the way it should be done.


Jon

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 23:56:56 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 10/9/2015 11:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

License? Who needs a license? I mean, what's the worst that could
happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4GKm-Vp3c

Haha, I've been watching forklift accident videos. Man, there's some
read idiots out there.

I've always maintained that the public can't drive at all. Many can't
even _steer_. At least once a week, headlines around here (town of
35k people) have articles showing an upside down vehicle in a ditch,
or run into a tree. One truck _rolled_ in an accident on a 25mph
street in heavy traffic. How do you even DO that?


We're undergoing massive expansion, contractors everywhere. Dirt road
around the backside of the plant passes under one of the two high
voltage lines feeding the plant. One contractor has touched the wires
twice with their crane. Same operator. lol...

He LIVED? g

--
Cats regard people as warmblooded furniture.
-- Jacquelyn Mitchard

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:54:39 -0500, Ignoramus17325
wrote:

On 2015-10-09, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:36:32 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

From summer 1974 through 1976, I worked at NASA Ames Research Center,
high school and college work exp. I had a US Federal Government drivers
license for light truck and forklift to 5t.

In every other job I held in the states, I was merely asked if I could
drive a forklift, or it was just assumed I could.

Drove around at work here a good 8 months before someone thought to ask
me if I held a NSW forklift drivers license. Was told it was an on the
spot fine of several grand for me, even more for my employer, if Work
Cover happened by and asked for a license I couldn't produce!
Having been bought by a large AU corporation, things like this are being
cleaned up, and most of us that didn't have one now do.
Made me curious though, how many states in the US issue forklift
licenses? I'd never heard of any. Oh, it comes under the heading of
High Risk Work here and can cover a number of things like cranes, etc.

Related, I have tickets (certificate) now in Work, Health, Safety;
Confined Spaces; and next weekend, will get my Working at Heights
ticket. Will be getting Cert 3 in first aid and another ticket for
emergency response team.

Again, don't recall hearing of any such things in the States, outside
of levels of training for first aid. Mostly worked in small job shops
though. So, are these sorts of tickets/certs common in large companies
there?

License? Who needs a license? I mean, what's the worst that could
happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4GKm-Vp3c

I thought that it was a Russian vodka warehouse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ZmOgMlyRE

Vodka warehouse? OK, that entirely explains the accident.


A $38 cert looks to be cheaper than a stiff OSHA fine, both for the
boss and driver.

I do not see how a certificate could prevent what happened.

A floor guard, maybe would work.

Sobriety might have worked, too, but cemented pipes as leg protectors
would have been the best bet.

--
Cats regard people as warmblooded furniture.
-- Jacquelyn Mitchard

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 12:33:06 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 10:19:06 -0500, F. George McDuffee wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:36:21 +0930, Bluey69
wrote:

snip
Yes we are now under the control of the WHS stazi and all it does is
cause frustration and drives the cost of making any thing through the
roof.
/snip
=====================

A good example of what I have referred to before as enterprise v
holistic/aggregate accounting.

An enterprise logically attempts to maximize their cost externalization
[foisting their costs off on someone else,
generally the taxpayer]. Such costs can include those resulting from
on-the-job injuries, i. e. long-term disability or death benefits.

On the other hand, it is impossible to externalize costs with holistic /
aggregate accounting, thus the divergence in conclusions.

Indeed, this can be extended to "executives" in that they can realize a
short term "profit" by skimping on maintenance and safety equipment so
as to put the entire enterprise (stockholders' investment capital), as
well as individual employees, at increased risk, e. g.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...obil-refinery-
explosion-20150813-story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_...nery_explosion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_..._Mine_disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sago_Mine_disaster

It is suggested that the total effect of safety regulations on a
national economy should be considered, not just the momentary short-term
effect on a specific enterprise or economic sector, as this is highly
misleading.

I agree wholeheartedly, but it should apply both ways -- having someone
who doesn't understand the machining process rendering a machine useless
with unnecessary "safety" features doesn't help anyone. More
specifically, if the "safety" feature needs to be defeated to get work
done, and the machine + defeated safety feature is less safe, then the
"safety" feature becomes a detriment to both safety and long-term cost.
===============
Agreed.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On 10/10/2015 3:31 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

He LIVED? g

Don't know the details, but yeah. Not so surprised it happened once, but
to happen a second time?


Jon

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:09:00 +1100, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 10/10/2015 3:31 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

He LIVED? g

Don't know the details, but yeah. Not so surprised it happened once, but
to happen a second time?

Death wish, or stoner? I'd imagine the insurance company would be a
bit miffed at the guy, as well as your OSHA-equivalent guys there.

Question: Is he still employable, and employed by that contractor?

--
Cats regard people as warmblooded furniture.
-- Jacquelyn Mitchard

On 10/12/2015 12:06 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Death wish, or stoner? I'd imagine the insurance company would be a
bit miffed at the guy, as well as your OSHA-equivalent guys there.

Question: Is he still employable, and employed by that contractor?

Just not paying attention, and yeah, still working for the same
contractor far as I know. This is a strange sort of small crane. Vehicle
steers by hinging in the center, boom pivots from the back. Short lift
range, but pretty mobile. Power lines cross a temporary dirt road built
for construction access. My understanding is that he brushed one of the
lines while driving underneath, so momentary contact.
No damage to the crane.

Jon