See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?

On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 11:59:45 -0400, Tom Gardner wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?

Sounds feasible. Stainless-steel or other low-corrosion mesh may be more
durable, and if you ever need to make a bong in an emergency you'll have
material to make the screen for the bowl.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 11:59:45 -0400, Tom Gardner wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...ards/index.htm

Worth a try. A homemade duct tape and foil wallet worked better than
8 of 10 commercial products. By the way, RF jammers seem to be
illegal.

Pete Keillor

Tom Gardner wrote:
See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL
foil the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the
stack of cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?

The sleeve the bank gave me with my debit card is al foil with paper
laminated on both sides . I think the cards need to be more-or-less
completely enclosed for that to be effective . Maybe an accordion fold set
of sleeves ?


--
Snag

Tom Gardner wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards?

Ummm, OK, but the only type of card (etc.) that is actually at risk is
something with RFID technology in it. Your US Passport is one of those
items. And, of course, many PDAs, tablets, phones, etc. can also be hacked
by wireless devices.

But, CREDIT CARDS, especially those in use in the US, should be immune.
There are only two kinds I have seen, mag stripe cards and chip cards.
Neither of these can be compromised without actually TOUCHING the cards.

Skimming actually refers to planting devices IN the store's card reader to
capture info from the card. You would have to take your card out of the
wallet to make a payment.

Jon

In article , Tom Gardner
wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?

Credit cards require physical contact, be it swiping the magnetic
stripe or communicating with the chip within. Neither is RFID, and so
cannot be skimmed from a distance.

Passports are quite another matter. They very much can be read from
ten or twenty feet. I'm not sure how important it is to prevent this,
but a sheet of 0.003" thick brass shimstock foil folded into the
passport completely prevents this. This costs maybe a dollar.

It is not necessary to enclose the passport. So long as the foil is
close to the antenna coil in the passport, it shorts the local field
out quite well.

If the foil is not removed, not even the legit reader at passport
control works. The officers at passport control do not get excited
about this - just remove the piece of shimstock, and put it back in the
passport later.

Joe Gwinn

On 02/09/15 01:22, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Tom Gardner
wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?
Credit cards require physical contact, be it swiping the magnetic
stripe or communicating with the chip within. Neither is RFID, and so
cannot be skimmed from a distance.

Passports are quite another matter. They very much can be read from
ten or twenty feet. I'm not sure how important it is to prevent this,
but a sheet of 0.003" thick brass shimstock foil folded into the
passport completely prevents this. This costs maybe a dollar.

It is not necessary to enclose the passport. So long as the foil is
close to the antenna coil in the passport, it shorts the local field
out quite well.

If the foil is not removed, not even the legit reader at passport
control works. The officers at passport control do not get excited
about this - just remove the piece of shimstock, and put it back in the
passport later.

Joe Gwinn
Maybe in the US this true but I doubt it, contactless payment technology
has been around in the UK for a few years at least and I would expect in
the US as well, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactless_payment ,
and has been in the news in recent days here as they are raising the
limit for this type of transaction to £30, previously £20 IIRC. I don't
have one and not sure if I want one. A few years ago I was warned by
friends in Holland about IIRC Oyster card travel payment cards being
scanned while in your pocket and details/funds being withdrawn.

On 02-Sep-15 8:22 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Tom Gardner
wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?

Credit cards require physical contact, be it swiping the magnetic
stripe or communicating with the chip within. Neither is RFID, and so
cannot be skimmed from a distance.

Passports are quite another matter. They very much can be read from
ten or twenty feet. I'm not sure how important it is to prevent this,
but a sheet of 0.003" thick brass shimstock foil folded into the
passport completely prevents this. This costs maybe a dollar.

It is not necessary to enclose the passport. So long as the foil is
close to the antenna coil in the passport, it shorts the local field
out quite well.

If the foil is not removed, not even the legit reader at passport
control works. The officers at passport control do not get excited
about this - just remove the piece of shimstock, and put it back in the
passport later.

Joe Gwinn



Credit cards in Australia have all three interfaces - wireless, chip
contacts & mag stripe. All three are operable and are used.

Kluge wrote:
On 02-Sep-15 8:22 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Tom Gardner
wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?
Credit cards require physical contact, be it swiping the magnetic
stripe or communicating with the chip within. Neither is RFID, and so
cannot be skimmed from a distance.

Passports are quite another matter. They very much can be read from
ten or twenty feet. I'm not sure how important it is to prevent this,
but a sheet of 0.003" thick brass shimstock foil folded into the
passport completely prevents this. This costs maybe a dollar.

It is not necessary to enclose the passport. So long as the foil is
close to the antenna coil in the passport, it shorts the local field
out quite well.

If the foil is not removed, not even the legit reader at passport
control works. The officers at passport control do not get excited
about this - just remove the piece of shimstock, and put it back in the
passport later.

Joe Gwinn



Credit cards in Australia have all three interfaces - wireless, chip
contacts & mag stripe. All three are operable and are used.

Same in the US. I have two cards with all three systems.

On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 02:09:20 +0100, the renowned David Billington
wrote:

On 02/09/15 01:22, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Tom Gardner
wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?
Credit cards require physical contact, be it swiping the magnetic
stripe or communicating with the chip within. Neither is RFID, and so
cannot be skimmed from a distance.

Passports are quite another matter. They very much can be read from
ten or twenty feet. I'm not sure how important it is to prevent this,
but a sheet of 0.003" thick brass shimstock foil folded into the
passport completely prevents this. This costs maybe a dollar.

It is not necessary to enclose the passport. So long as the foil is
close to the antenna coil in the passport, it shorts the local field
out quite well.

If the foil is not removed, not even the legit reader at passport
control works. The officers at passport control do not get excited
about this - just remove the piece of shimstock, and put it back in the
passport later.

Joe Gwinn
Maybe in the US this true but I doubt it, contactless payment technology
has been around in the UK for a few years at least and I would expect in
the US as well, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactless_payment ,
and has been in the news in recent days here as they are raising the
limit for this type of transaction to £30, previously £20 IIRC. I don't
have one and not sure if I want one. A few years ago I was warned by
friends in Holland about IIRC Oyster card travel payment cards being
scanned while in your pocket and details/funds being withdrawn.

I have about six in my wallet that will do contactless payment. Limit
varies by vendor and by some kind of algorithm- sometimes up to $75 or
more, other times a $20 payment will require chip+PIN. More times it
won't work at all with Amex, but will with M/C or Visa even where all
are accepted. It's actually faster than cash where the registers are
set up for it.

It doesn't have a lot of range with the typical readers- maybe 1/2".

The 'Octopus' stored value cards they've been use in Hong Kong for
more than a decade seem to have a bit more range- folks keep them in
their wallet or purse and just flap it against the reader to pay
subway fares etc.. I think some cell phones have it built in.

I think a bit of tin foil would work in the wallet. Maybe even the
aluminized paper in cig packs (do they still have that?).

--sp


--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8
Microchip link for 2015 Masters in Phoenix: http://tinyurl.com/l7g2k48

On 02-Sep-15 12:05 PM, Steve W. wrote:
Kluge wrote:
On 02-Sep-15 8:22 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Tom Gardner
wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?
Credit cards require physical contact, be it swiping the magnetic
stripe or communicating with the chip within. Neither is RFID, and so
cannot be skimmed from a distance.

Passports are quite another matter. They very much can be read from
ten or twenty feet. I'm not sure how important it is to prevent this,
but a sheet of 0.003" thick brass shimstock foil folded into the
passport completely prevents this. This costs maybe a dollar.

It is not necessary to enclose the passport. So long as the foil is
close to the antenna coil in the passport, it shorts the local field
out quite well.

If the foil is not removed, not even the legit reader at passport
control works. The officers at passport control do not get excited
about this - just remove the piece of shimstock, and put it back in the
passport later.

Joe Gwinn



Credit cards in Australia have all three interfaces - wireless, chip
contacts & mag stripe. All three are operable and are used.

Same in the US. I have two cards with all three systems.


The "pay-wave" or "touch-n-go" payment method is warmly embraced by
thieves who clock up as much as they can before the card is cancelled.

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 8:59:50 AM UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages?

It's easier than that. A credit-card sized chunk of brass or SS shim stock
in close proximity to the card (next to it) will greatly attenuate any interrogation
RF and load the 'antenna' so it doesn't respond. I just keep a business
card from an electrochemical machining outfit in the wallet next
to the RF-responding cards.

Or, there are metal-case 'wallets', if you can tolerate extra silliness.

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 13:14:38 +0800, Deez Nuts wrote:

On 02-Sep-15 12:05 PM, Steve W. wrote:
Kluge wrote:
On 02-Sep-15 8:22 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Tom Gardner
wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages? I was thinking I could laminate some AL foil
the size of credit cards and have one on top and bottom of the stack of
cards in my wallet to do the job. Sound feasible?
Credit cards require physical contact, be it swiping the magnetic
stripe or communicating with the chip within. Neither is RFID, and so
cannot be skimmed from a distance.

Passports are quite another matter. They very much can be read from
ten or twenty feet. I'm not sure how important it is to prevent this,
but a sheet of 0.003" thick brass shimstock foil folded into the
passport completely prevents this. This costs maybe a dollar.

It is not necessary to enclose the passport. So long as the foil is
close to the antenna coil in the passport, it shorts the local field
out quite well.

If the foil is not removed, not even the legit reader at passport
control works. The officers at passport control do not get excited
about this - just remove the piece of shimstock, and put it back in the
passport later.

Joe Gwinn



Credit cards in Australia have all three interfaces - wireless, chip
contacts & mag stripe. All three are operable and are used.

Same in the US. I have two cards with all three systems.


The "pay-wave" or "touch-n-go" payment method is warmly embraced by
thieves who clock up as much as they can before the card is cancelled.

My bank said "Due to security, we have not issued any of these chipped
cards, so all cards issued are safe."

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 00:25:27 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 8:59:50 AM UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages?

It's easier than that. A credit-card sized chunk of brass or SS shim stock
in close proximity to the card (next to it) will greatly attenuate any interrogation
RF and load the 'antenna' so it doesn't respond. I just keep a business
card from an electrochemical machining outfit in the wallet next
to the RF-responding cards.

Great idea.. I think I have one or two of those kicking around from
trade shows.

Or, there are metal-case 'wallets', if you can tolerate extra silliness.

Or use the 'security edition' of the Bill of Rights..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBrdB7aNOY4

--sp


--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8
Microchip link for 2015 Masters in Phoenix: http://tinyurl.com/l7g2k48

On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 05:59:06 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


My bank said "Due to security, we have not issued any of these chipped
cards, so all cards issued are safe."

The credit card companies have a zero liability policy and they don't
let you (or anyone) go doing a whole bunch of PIN-less transactions in
a row without checking once in a while.

I think it's safer than cash.

--sp



--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8
Microchip link for 2015 Masters in Phoenix: http://tinyurl.com/l7g2k48

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 00:25:27 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 8:59:50 AM UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards? Are those
considered Faraday cages?
It's easier than that. A credit-card sized chunk of brass or SS shim stock
in close proximity to the card (next to it) will greatly attenuate any interrogation
RF and load the 'antenna' so it doesn't respond. I just keep a business
card from an electrochemical machining outfit in the wallet next
to the RF-responding cards.

Great idea.. I think I have one or two of those kicking around from
trade shows.

Or, there are metal-case 'wallets', if you can tolerate extra silliness.

Or use the 'security edition' of the Bill of Rights..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBrdB7aNOY4

--sp


Aluminized mylar works as well. They give you a bag made of the stuff if
you have the EZ-Pass units. (also works real nice to tuck a company cell
phone in when you don't want to deal with the BS for a while.... or at
least I heard that somewhere, I would never have done that with the
companies cell phone....)

Need a source? Dollar stores sell a lot of aluminized mylar in balloon
form....

On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 11:31:10 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 05:59:06 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


My bank said "Due to security, we have not issued any of these chipped
cards, so all cards issued are safe."

The credit card companies have a zero liability policy and they don't
let you (or anyone) go doing a whole bunch of PIN-less transactions in
a row without checking once in a while.

I think it's safer than cash.

Ditto here. My bank called once and asked "Did you just spend $1,200
at Fifi's Boutique?" After I stopped laughing, she said "I didn't
think so. OK, we'll send out a replacement credit card within a week.
Cut the other one up."

Another time, the card just showed up with a letter saying that they'd
seen some strange activity and swapped cards, just in case. I love my
bank!

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!

On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 21:02:21 -0700, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:


Ditto here. My bank called once and asked "Did you just spend $1,200
at Fifi's Boutique?" After I stopped laughing, she said "I didn't
think so. OK, we'll send out a replacement credit card within a week.
Cut the other one up."

Another time, the card just showed up with a letter saying that they'd
seen some strange activity and swapped cards, just in case. I love my
bank!

Just happened this evening, after I wrote the first response. I was at
the Costco checkout and a call came on my cell phone from the West
coast- it was the bank fraud department (the one that *detects*
frauds, just to be clear) asking if I just spent $1039 at Ryan's Pet
Supply (nope!). I just happened to be paying with the same card!

Funny thing is a somewhat paranoid friend who uses his card for almost
nothing has had this happen too.

--sp


--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8
Microchip link for 2015 Masters in Phoenix: http://tinyurl.com/l7g2k48

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 11:31:10 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 05:59:06 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

My bank said "Due to security, we have not issued any of these chipped
cards, so all cards issued are safe."
The credit card companies have a zero liability policy and they don't
let you (or anyone) go doing a whole bunch of PIN-less transactions in
a row without checking once in a while.

I think it's safer than cash.

Ditto here. My bank called once and asked "Did you just spend $1,200
at Fifi's Boutique?" After I stopped laughing, she said "I didn't
think so. OK, we'll send out a replacement credit card within a week.
Cut the other one up."

Another time, the card just showed up with a letter saying that they'd
seen some strange activity and swapped cards, just in case. I love my
bank!

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!

Had a new card sent to me right after the big "data leak" that Master
Card had. Letter inside said that they were "not sure" if my number was
one of the hacked ones...

One thing I did notice though. My wife has a card through the same bank
as does my FIL. I've made purchases with all three (they like to buy
stuff but don't like using the computer!) All three cards have the same
first number sets. Only the last 4 are different (and the ID number on
the back) So in theory all you need would be to run those numbers
sequentially till you found a sequence that works. With a computer that
wouldn't take long. And with the way the act at checkouts these days
(next time you use a card watch and see if they even look at the
signature)fraud is probably REAL easy.

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 11:31:10 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 05:59:06 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

My bank said "Due to security, we have not issued any of these chipped
cards, so all cards issued are safe."
The credit card companies have a zero liability policy and they don't
let you (or anyone) go doing a whole bunch of PIN-less transactions in
a row without checking once in a while.
I think it's safer than cash.

Ditto here. My bank called once and asked "Did you just spend $1,200
at Fifi's Boutique?" After I stopped laughing, she said "I didn't
think so. OK, we'll send out a replacement credit card within a week.
Cut the other one up."

Another time, the card just showed up with a letter saying that they'd
seen some strange activity and swapped cards, just in case. I love my
bank!

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!

Had a new card sent to me right after the big "data leak" that Master
Card had. Letter inside said that they were "not sure" if my number was
one of the hacked ones...

One thing I did notice though. My wife has a card through the same bank as
does my FIL. I've made purchases with all three (they like to buy stuff
but don't like using the computer!) All three cards have the same first
number sets. Only the last 4 are different (and the ID number on the back)
So in theory all you need would be to run those numbers sequentially till
you found a sequence that works. With a computer that wouldn't take long.
And with the way the act at checkouts these days (next time you use a card
watch and see if they even look at the signature)fraud is probably REAL
easy.

A while back, just for kicks and grins when I was using a self check out
somewhere I started signing my receipts with the names of Presidents. Two
days ago I signed Herbert Hoover at Lowes. Today all the self check outs at
Lowes were backed up so I went to one that was manned (personed?). When I
tried to sign with my own name, the sig was rejected. After trying my sig
three times the clerk had to print the receipt and have me sign that. I'm
sure it was coincidental...

Steve

On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 17:52:25 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

See ads for wallets that prevent skimming credit cards?

Ummm, OK, but the only type of card (etc.) that is actually at risk is
something with RFID technology in it. Your US Passport is one of those
items. And, of course, many PDAs, tablets, phones, etc. can also be
hacked by wireless devices.

But, CREDIT CARDS, especially those in use in the US, should be immune.
There are only two kinds I have seen, mag stripe cards and chip cards.
Neither of these can be compromised without actually TOUCHING the cards.

We traveled in EU this summer and saw payment terminals that worked with
proximity payment cards. I haven't seen such card myself but I think it
is just like a chip card that uses RFID for communications

On 9/3/2015 12:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Ditto here. My bank called once and asked "Did you just spend $1,200
at Fifi's Boutique?" After I stopped laughing, she said "I didn't
think so. OK, we'll send out a replacement credit card within a week.
Cut the other one up."


Can we see pictures of you modeling the stuff you bought at Fifi's Boutique?

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 01:04:32 -0400, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 9/3/2015 12:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Ditto here. My bank called once and asked "Did you just spend $1,200
at Fifi's Boutique?" After I stopped laughing, she said "I didn't
think so. OK, we'll send out a replacement credit card within a week.
Cut the other one up."


Can we see pictures of you modeling the stuff you bought at Fifi's Boutique?

Only Tawmmy could have come up with that one...
You were probably thinking "bondage/leashes", weren't you?
Thot so.

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!

On 9/9/2015 12:17 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 01:04:32 -0400, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 9/3/2015 12:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Ditto here. My bank called once and asked "Did you just spend $1,200
at Fifi's Boutique?" After I stopped laughing, she said "I didn't
think so. OK, we'll send out a replacement credit card within a week.
Cut the other one up."


Can we see pictures of you modeling the stuff you bought at Fifi's Boutique?

Only Tawmmy could have come up with that one...
You were probably thinking "bondage/leashes", weren't you?
Thot so.

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!



Well, I did have a Poodle named Fifi when I was a kid. Great dog and no
sissy. Looks can be deceiving.

On Wed, 9 Sep 2015 05:50:31 -0400, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 9/9/2015 12:17 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 01:04:32 -0400, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 9/3/2015 12:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Ditto here. My bank called once and asked "Did you just spend $1,200
at Fifi's Boutique?" After I stopped laughing, she said "I didn't
think so. OK, we'll send out a replacement credit card within a week.
Cut the other one up."


Can we see pictures of you modeling the stuff you bought at Fifi's Boutique?

Only Tawmmy could have come up with that one...
You were probably thinking "bondage/leashes", weren't you?
Thot so.

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!



Well, I did have a Poodle named Fifi when I was a kid. Great dog and no
sissy. Looks can be deceiving.

I'm not fond of poodles, miniature or otherwise. I was really
surprised when I learned they were bred for fighting. Meanass Mutts.

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!

On 9/9/2015 11:46 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

I'm not fond of poodles, miniature or otherwise. I was really
surprised when I learned they were bred for fighting. Meanass Mutts.

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!


My brother has a standard. He's all muscle and fluff. My SIL was
walking him and a thud-type started giving her a bad time and Oscar tore
the guy's sleeve off his leather jacket in one move. They guy's STILL
elbows and assholes.

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:00:53 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

On 9/9/2015 11:46 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

I'm not fond of poodles, miniature or otherwise. I was really
surprised when I learned they were bred for fighting. Meanass Mutts.

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!


My brother has a standard. He's all muscle and fluff. My SIL was
walking him and a thud-type started giving her a bad time and Oscar tore
the guy's sleeve off his leather jacket in one move. They guy's STILL
elbows and assholes.

Har! Good for Fluffy! I think you meant "thug-type", dincha?

It's too bad more thugs don't lose limbs for their trouble, y'know?

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!