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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)


http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst...724401249.html

1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

We are selling a nice 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat for just $700.
It has a good solid fiberglass hull, a nice basic interior with roomy
V-berth,
salon cushions in white vinyl, but needs decorating and a personal
touch.
It is an easy sailboat to sail, and is an affordable starter boat for
begginning.
Its mast is currently down and it needs to have the rigging put back
in place.
It is currently on a trailer, but the trailer is not included. Can be
put in water free.
Just add a nice little outboard and BBQ grill and you will be out
sailing to Catalina,
and enjoying hanging out at the dock spending a few nights onboard
with friends.
Call 310-990-3160 and I will get back to you promptly to set up a time
for you to see it.
The summer weather is year round in Marina Del Rey...Are you ready to
enjoy it?

Best,

Jack
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

Ok Mark. This one may be a bit out of your league?

1992 Capri 37
37' LOA
12' Beam
7' Draft

$39,000

Condition: Excellent!

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/46100

Built by Catalina Yachts specifically for the Congressional Cup match
racing series. A fleet is maintained by the Long Beach (CA) Sailing
Foundation. AKA CATALINA 37.

1992 Catalina Capri 37 Congressional Cup One Design,

....................... PHRF 72-76 ...............................


(drool!)
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 20:09:21 -0500, Richard
wrote:

Ok Mark. This one may be a bit out of your league?

1992 Capri 37
37' LOA
12' Beam
7' Draft

$39,000

Condition: Excellent!

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/46100

Built by Catalina Yachts specifically for the Congressional Cup match
racing series. A fleet is maintained by the Long Beach (CA) Sailing
Foundation. AKA CATALINA 37.

1992 Catalina Capri 37 Congressional Cup One Design,

...................... PHRF 72-76 ...............................


FAST!!!!!!!!!!!


(drool!)


NICE!!!

Pardon my drool puddle as well...

Sigh....no place to put it and its too much draft for the local lakes.

Snivel.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Boats-/26429/i.html?_fls=1&_os=UP|S|PL|D&_pos=93268&_stpos=9326 8&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEFSRCHX%3ASRCH&_ipg=200&_nkw= sailboat&LH_LocatedIn=1&_sop=2

I am however pondering this one. I dont know if it was sunk..or just
allowed to fill up with rain water for a number of years

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-Laguna-...-/390954883755

Will match my Windrose 18...lol



This one below..is of course way too far...but interesting. Any idea
of what it would take to put the keel back on? Lookw like a clean
break...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sabre-30-198...-/321559113264

Love Sabres!!

Btw....this is in Austin, Texas..but its one hell of a nice boat..and
they are FAST!!

http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/4723984188.html

Looks like it would make you a great winter project without much
expense.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On 10/25/2014 12:32 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 20:09:21 -0500, Richard
wrote:

Ok Mark. This one may be a bit out of your league?

1992 Capri 37
37' LOA
12' Beam
7' Draft

$39,000

Condition: Excellent!

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/46100

Built by Catalina Yachts specifically for the Congressional Cup match
racing series. A fleet is maintained by the Long Beach (CA) Sailing
Foundation. AKA CATALINA 37.

1992 Catalina Capri 37 Congressional Cup One Design,

...................... PHRF 72-76 ...............................


FAST!!!!!!!!!!!


(drool!)


NICE!!!

Pardon my drool puddle as well...

Sigh....no place to put it and its too much draft for the local lakes.

Snivel.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Boats-/26429/i.html?_fls=1&_os=UP|S|PL|D&_pos=93268&_stpos=9326 8&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEFSRCHX%3ASRCH&_ipg=200&_nkw= sailboat&LH_LocatedIn=1&_sop=2

I am however pondering this one. I dont know if it was sunk..or just
allowed to fill up with rain water for a number of years

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-Laguna-...-/390954883755

Will match my Windrose 18...lol



The 18 Windrose is a fun fast boat.
But I'll pass on the 24.
Large centerboard boats are not my cup of tea.





This one below..is of course way too far...but interesting. Any idea
of what it would take to put the keel back on? Lookw like a clean
break...


That's not a break.
That's the stub molded into the hull.
The keel was most likely removed.
If so, there was a valid reason.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sabre-30-198...-/321559113264

Love Sabres!!

Btw....this is in Austin, Texas..but its one hell of a nice boat..and
they are FAST!!

http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/4723984188.html

Looks like it would make you a great winter project without much
expense.


No such thing!


Gunner




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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 12:58:56 -0500, Richard
wrote:



The 18 Windrose is a fun fast boat.
But I'll pass on the 24.
Large centerboard boats are not my cup of tea.


Capris are not..not swing keel boats...just a heads up.







This one below..is of course way too far...but interesting. Any idea
of what it would take to put the keel back on? Lookw like a clean
break...


That's not a break.
That's the stub molded into the hull.
The keel was most likely removed.
If so, there was a valid reason.


It fell off the stands. If you look at all the photos..it is visible
in several of them

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke


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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 12:58:56 -0500, Richard
wrote:



The 18 Windrose is a fun fast boat.
But I'll pass on the 24.
Large centerboard boats are not my cup of tea.





This one below..is of course way too far...but interesting. Any idea
of what it would take to put the keel back on? Lookw like a clean
break...


That's not a break.
That's the stub molded into the hull.
The keel was most likely removed.
If so, there was a valid reason.

http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/4731297582.html

http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/4730847144.html

http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/4730570208.html

NICE BOAT!!!
http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/boa/4728856984.html



Btw.....seen the new Hunter 44?

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bod/4726587471.html

Drool......indeed!!


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On 10/25/2014 4:00 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
Btw.....seen the new Hunter 44?

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bod/4726587471.html

Drool......indeed!!


Yeah, we had a Hunter 38 for a while.
It's nice enough, but too big to single hand comfortably.
900 square feet of sail - without the spinnaker.
Just too much boat for a small lake.
And big as a house to boot.

Too much trouble to take it out just to sail for an hour or so.

That's why I we downsized.
Fewer troubles, less expense, more fun.


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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 19:37:09 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/25/2014 4:00 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
Btw.....seen the new Hunter 44?

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bod/4726587471.html

Drool......indeed!!


Yeah, we had a Hunter 38 for a while.
It's nice enough, but too big to single hand comfortably.
900 square feet of sail - without the spinnaker.
Just too much boat for a small lake.
And big as a house to boot.

Too much trouble to take it out just to sail for an hour or so.

That's why I we downsized.
Fewer troubles, less expense, more fun.

What size ARE you looking for? First it was the sold keel
Capris...now?

You have signed up for my two groups..right?

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/info

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/sailboatstuff/info



"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On 10/25/2014 9:21 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 19:37:09 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/25/2014 4:00 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
Btw.....seen the new Hunter 44?

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bod/4726587471.html

Drool......indeed!!


Yeah, we had a Hunter 38 for a while.
It's nice enough, but too big to single hand comfortably.
900 square feet of sail - without the spinnaker.
Just too much boat for a small lake.
And big as a house to boot.

Too much trouble to take it out just to sail for an hour or so.

That's why I we downsized.
Fewer troubles, less expense, more fun.

What size ARE you looking for? First it was the sold keel
Capris...now?


Still interested in a Capri.

We have an O'Day 28, but I'd like to find a Capri 18 or Capri 22 -
wing keel - with trailer - for more that $1000.

I don't have the energy it would take to restore a beater to a beauty.
I've done it before - twice.
It takes a hellofalot more work and money than you think.
At least to meet my standards.
I'm not interested in other people's standards.

It's one of those YMMV things.



You have signed up for my two groups..right?

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/info

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/sailboatstuff/info



Nope.
Wrong focus for me.




"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke


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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 22:05:39 -0500, Richard
wrote:

Yeah, we had a Hunter 38 for a while.
It's nice enough, but too big to single hand comfortably.
900 square feet of sail - without the spinnaker.
Just too much boat for a small lake.
And big as a house to boot.

Too much trouble to take it out just to sail for an hour or so.

That's why I we downsized.
Fewer troubles, less expense, more fun.

What size ARE you looking for? First it was the sold keel
Capris...now?


Still interested in a Capri.


But they have keels. I thought you didnt want a full keel.

We have an O'Day 28, but I'd like to find a Capri 18 or Capri 22 -
wing keel - with trailer - for more that $1000.


So if someone offered you one for $500 you would turn it down......?

I don't have the energy it would take to restore a beater to a beauty.
I've done it before - twice.
It takes a hellofalot more work and money than you think.
At least to meet my standards.
I'm not interested in other people's standards.

It's one of those YMMV things.


Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug. Some need paint..shrug again. Yup..there are some
beaters in there..but surprisingly few. I got a Santana 20 in "like
new" condition for a guy over in Morro Bay...for $1000. On a decent
trailer. He keeps inviting me to come sailing with him.

Got a Catalina 22 for another guy for $2000. Perfectly beautimus boat.
Owner died ..the widow was moving in with her daughter..had no need
for the boat. On a 4 yr old Aluminum trailer and only sailed in fresh
water. Mint!!

Found a 30' Oday for $3500. Fully loaded with 8 sails on board. LCD TV
mounted in the salon..full stereo, wifi, radar etc etc. Owner was in
the military and was moving on. Washington DC.

Etc etc.



You have signed up for my two groups..right?

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/info

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/sailboatstuff/info



Nope.
Wrong focus for me.


Wrong focus? Which focus might that be?

You keep talking in distant phrases and circles. You are on a beer
budget but you want a perfect new boat. Wish in one hand....

That Capri 22 the original thread was about was a perfectly good
boat..for $700. You cant even afford to spend $2k to have it shipped
to you. And you want a "new boat" which sells for $10k on average
when you find one. Hummm $2000 + $700 = $2700.....right?

You told me you sold the Oday. Whats up with that?

You want a boat, Ill find you one. You want to wish ...you are on your
own. Got lots of dreamers out there. They are as common as road kill
in the spring.

I got my Windrose 18 for $300..and the guy put 2 NEW tires on the
trailer. And still hasnt cashed my checks. He wanted it to go to
someone serious about using it.......

Gunner




"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke


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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)


Ok, since the details of my private life seem to fascinate you...

We sold out Capri 26 recently.
The Oday 28 cost about 1/3 what I got for the Capri.
It's nice, but still too big for my play boat.

The extra money for the sale of the Capri went for my wife's surgery.
We won't go into detail about that in this forum.
None of your business. Nosy.

You have misread everything I've ever written about boats.
The Capri series are ALL fin keels.
And it's not that I can't afford to pay $2000 to ship a $700 boat.
I simply don't want to do any such foolish thing.

I really don't want you to find me a boat.

I'd really appreciate if you would be so kind as to stop that.

Ok, pumpkin?

Sheesh!

Some people just can't take a hint.

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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

It's one of those YMMV things.


Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug. Some need paint..shrug again.


One other thing, while I'm at it, Mark.

I would NEVER EVER own a fiberglass boat that has been PAINTED!
On needs to be "painted".

Pass!



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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.



Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?


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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:18:04 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
Ok, since the details of my private life seem to fascinate you...

We sold out Capri 26 recently.
The Oday 28 cost about 1/3 what I got for the Capri.
It's nice, but still too big for my play boat.

The extra money for the sale of the Capri went for my wife's surgery.
We won't go into detail about that in this forum.
None of your business. Nosy.

You have misread everything I've ever written about boats.
The Capri series are ALL fin keels.
And it's not that I can't afford to pay $2000 to ship a $700 boat.
I simply don't want to do any such foolish thing.

I really don't want you to find me a boat.

I'd really appreciate if you would be so kind as to stop that.

Ok, pumpkin?

Sheesh!

Some people just can't take a hint.




Mark Wieber has no life and has to live vicariously through you.



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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:22:09 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.



Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?



Mark Wieber has a serious shrugging problem. It's like a nervous tic when he types.





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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On 10/26/2014 10:30 PM, jon_banquer wrote:
On Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:22:09 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.



Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?



Mark Wieber has a serious shrugging problem. It's like a nervous tic when he types.





LOL! Ya got me laughing with that one, Jon.
I had noticed he shrugs a lot.

I've also noticed the stalking behavior.
I mean really! How creepy can a guy get?

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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:19:47 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

It's one of those YMMV things.


Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug. Some need paint..shrug again.


One other thing, while I'm at it, Mark.

I would NEVER EVER own a fiberglass boat that has been PAINTED!
On needs to be "painted".

Pass!



So you are onlty going to be sailing in fresh water then?

Funny how modern paints are used to keep marine critters from taking
residence on your hull.

Shrug...and you want to race something with barnacles and weeds and
**** caking your hull?

Interesting..

About that head injury...


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:21:39 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.



Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?


Punch a hole in a sail and spend $10 for a roll of sail tape..or spend
$1800 for a new sail. Your choice. As for me...Ill simply put on a
bit of sail tape and keep on sailing. You do know that is a suggested
item in offshore cruising kits right along with flare guns and
PFDs..right?


Personally...that Champaign taste of yours makes you look like an
idiot. But hey....its your bucks. Some good lofts out that that will
make you a nice new sail for lots of money. But hey...you can afford
to rerig every 6 months..so go for it!

As for me...nope...not in my budget. Should it be? Right alongside
mink covered toilet seats too eh?

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:52:55 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 10:30 PM, jon_banquer wrote:
On Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:22:09 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.


Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?



Mark Wieber has a serious shrugging problem. It's like a nervous tic when he types.





LOL! Ya got me laughing with that one, Jon.
I had noticed he shrugs a lot.

I've also noticed the stalking behavior.
I mean really! How creepy can a guy get?


Stalking? Posting a boat ad every now and then as a friendly gesture
is stalking?

Fascinating. Particularly coming from JonBoi and now Richard.

VBG

Absolutely fascinating!

VBG

http://littlerock.craigslist.org/bar/4731857074.html

mt tractor for sail or trade - $500 (traskwood)
1949 mt john deer runs good last used two months ago will sale or
trade for generator 4000 wat or larger or four wheeler 300 or bigger
or sale 500.oo firm e-mail for pic


Found a PERFECT sail boat for Texas waters

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/4732619446.html
Sandpiper 8ft Sailboat - $600

Brand new lines, Clean Sail, Excellent condition. So fun on the water!
Capacity: 3 persons or 360 lbs.
Also includes custom trailer that attaches to bicycle to get you to
your destination easily. Bike included for $25 additional.
(We are moving away from the water, so that's why we have to part with
this fun set-up)
Call 206.930.2676 or email if you want this great toy!

Laugh laugh laugh laugh!!!!

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 02:00:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:21:39 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.



Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?


Punch a hole in a sail and spend $10 for a roll of sail tape..or spend
$1800 for a new sail. Your choice. As for me...Ill simply put on a
bit of sail tape and keep on sailing. You do know that is a suggested
item in offshore cruising kits right along with flare guns and
PFDs..right?


You know? I spent about 15 years living aboard and sailing off shore
and I don't believe I ever saw an "off shore cruising boat" that had
"sail tape". In fact I'm not sure that some of them would even knew
what it was. One reason, perhaps, is that a cruising sailor doesn't
punch a hole in a sail.

For that matter I never, in 15 years, met anyone with a "PFD", or at
least they wouldn't admit to even knowing what one was. A life jacket,
certainly, but a PFD? Oh la-de-dah, and a flick of the limp wrist to
you too.


Personally...that Champaign taste of yours makes you look like an
idiot. But hey....its your bucks. Some good lofts out that that will
make you a nice new sail for lots of money. But hey...you can afford
to rerig every 6 months..so go for it!

As for me...nope...not in my budget. Should it be? Right alongside
mink covered toilet seats too eh?

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

--
Cheers,

John B.


  #21   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 12,529
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:52:53 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 02:00:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:21:39 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.


Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?


Punch a hole in a sail and spend $10 for a roll of sail tape..or spend
$1800 for a new sail. Your choice. As for me...Ill simply put on a
bit of sail tape and keep on sailing. You do know that is a suggested
item in offshore cruising kits right along with flare guns and
PFDs..right?


You know? I spent about 15 years living aboard and sailing off shore
and I don't believe I ever saw an "off shore cruising boat" that had
"sail tape". In fact I'm not sure that some of them would even knew
what it was. One reason, perhaps, is that a cruising sailor doesn't
punch a hole in a sail.


This is getting ridiculous, and it leaves me in the uncomfortable
position of defending Gunner. g

I'd like to know what you mean by "sailing offshore." If you mean
coastwise cruising, and if you head for harbor when the wind is above
20 knots, then more power to you. If you mean you're cruising in blue
water, and if you don't have sail tape in your emergency kit, then
you're one lucky dude. (What do you have in that kit, tarred rope and
a sailor's palm?) Or you buy new sails every year, you oversheet your
main so your batten pockets never luff and chafe...in which case,
you're still a lucky dude if you haven't gotten knocked overboard from
an unexpected jibe. g

I've never been a bluewater sailor, but I've done some coastwise
racing, and we *always* had sail tape and patch cloth in the emergency
kit. 'Never had to use them, but I never sailed outside, between
inlets, anyway, with anyone who didn't have a sail-repair kit with
them.


For that matter I never, in 15 years, met anyone with a "PFD", or at
least they wouldn't admit to even knowing what one was. A life jacket,
certainly, but a PFD? Oh la-de-dah, and a flick of the limp wrist to
you too.


They damned well better know what a PFD is. It's in the U.S. Coast
Guard regulations and the regulations of every state that I know of.

Of course we call them "life jackets." But they're regulated as
"PFDs."

Something is fishy here.



Personally...that Champaign taste of yours makes you look like an
idiot. But hey....its your bucks. Some good lofts out that that will
make you a nice new sail for lots of money. But hey...you can afford
to rerig every 6 months..so go for it!

As for me...nope...not in my budget. Should it be? Right alongside
mink covered toilet seats too eh?

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke


Richard sails in lakes and can afford a new sail when he wants one. I
just don't get the idea of someone with 15 years of ocean cruising
experience who doesn't carry a sail-repair kit; for the last 50 years
or so, that includes tape.

So, Gunner is one of those low-bucks sailors. I can't criticize that.
The yachty types may trade in their boats when the gel coat fades (no
paint, Richard? Puleeeze....). Maybe they call the yacht club when
they get a tear in their sail. That's not what Gunner is doing. And he
appears to be having a lot of fun at it, anyway.

--
Ed Huntress
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 11:00:06 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:52:53 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 02:00:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:21:39 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.


Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?


Punch a hole in a sail and spend $10 for a roll of sail tape..or spend
$1800 for a new sail. Your choice. As for me...Ill simply put on a
bit of sail tape and keep on sailing. You do know that is a suggested
item in offshore cruising kits right along with flare guns and
PFDs..right?


You know? I spent about 15 years living aboard and sailing off shore
and I don't believe I ever saw an "off shore cruising boat" that had
"sail tape". In fact I'm not sure that some of them would even knew
what it was. One reason, perhaps, is that a cruising sailor doesn't
punch a hole in a sail.


This is getting ridiculous, and it leaves me in the uncomfortable
position of defending Gunner. g

I'd like to know what you mean by "sailing offshore." If you mean
coastwise cruising, and if you head for harbor when the wind is above
20 knots, then more power to you. If you mean you're cruising in blue
water, and if you don't have sail tape in your emergency kit, then
you're one lucky dude. (What do you have in that kit, tarred rope and
a sailor's palm?) Or you buy new sails every year, you oversheet your
main so your batten pockets never luff and chafe...in which case,
you're still a lucky dude if you haven't gotten knocked overboard from
an unexpected jibe. g


I didn't give the term much thought as it is pretty commonly used for
other then day sailing. Perhaps "going somewhere" is better.

And nope, I really don't know anyone that "goes somewhere" that
carries "sail tape" in their stores. It isn't really much good except
for what Gunner described "punching a hole in your sail". As for
chaffed holes in batten pockets I think that a much preferred repair
would be to, perhaps, shorten the batten a bit and sew up the end of
the pocket. After all the tape won't hold for very long, and port
might be several weeks away.

And yes, my "sails ditty bag" has two "palms", a selection of needles,
rigging hook, twine, thread, etc.

And, if you single hand, as I always did, you take a bit of care about
accidental jibes. You can either rig a preventer or buy a jibe
preventer. On the other hand, a cruising boat usually has a deep
enough cockpit that they boom swings over your head.


I've never been a bluewater sailor, but I've done some coastwise
racing, and we *always* had sail tape and patch cloth in the emergency
kit. 'Never had to use them, but I never sailed outside, between
inlets, anyway, with anyone who didn't have a sail-repair kit with
them.


Racing is a very, very, different thing than cruising.


For that matter I never, in 15 years, met anyone with a "PFD", or at
least they wouldn't admit to even knowing what one was. A life jacket,
certainly, but a PFD? Oh la-de-dah, and a flick of the limp wrist to
you too.


They damned well better know what a PFD is. It's in the U.S. Coast
Guard regulations and the regulations of every state that I know of.

U.S. Coast Guard? Who are they?

Of course we call them "life jackets." But they're regulated as
"PFDs."


PFD's see:
The SOLAS requirements
http://www.pomorci.com/Propisi/80-10...Brakocevic.pdf
they don't seem to be required under international requirements :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #23   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:14:23 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 11:00:06 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:52:53 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 02:00:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:21:39 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.


Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?


Punch a hole in a sail and spend $10 for a roll of sail tape..or spend
$1800 for a new sail. Your choice. As for me...Ill simply put on a
bit of sail tape and keep on sailing. You do know that is a suggested
item in offshore cruising kits right along with flare guns and
PFDs..right?


You know? I spent about 15 years living aboard and sailing off shore
and I don't believe I ever saw an "off shore cruising boat" that had
"sail tape". In fact I'm not sure that some of them would even knew
what it was. One reason, perhaps, is that a cruising sailor doesn't
punch a hole in a sail.


This is getting ridiculous, and it leaves me in the uncomfortable
position of defending Gunner. g

I'd like to know what you mean by "sailing offshore." If you mean
coastwise cruising, and if you head for harbor when the wind is above
20 knots, then more power to you. If you mean you're cruising in blue
water, and if you don't have sail tape in your emergency kit, then
you're one lucky dude. (What do you have in that kit, tarred rope and
a sailor's palm?) Or you buy new sails every year, you oversheet your
main so your batten pockets never luff and chafe...in which case,
you're still a lucky dude if you haven't gotten knocked overboard from
an unexpected jibe. g


I didn't give the term much thought as it is pretty commonly used for
other then day sailing. Perhaps "going somewhere" is better.


Perhaps. But blue-water sailing and coastwise sailing are very
different things.

If you make passages across long stretches of ocean, far from land,
you're a blue-water sailor. If you sail close enough that you can make
harbor in a half-day or less, you're a coastwise sailor. Sailing
between islands in the Antilles doesn't count as "blue-water."


And nope, I really don't know anyone that "goes somewhere" that
carries "sail tape" in their stores. It isn't really much good except
for what Gunner described "punching a hole in your sail".


Loop it aroud a bolt rope for a tear that occurs parallel to the rope.
That's a common tear when racing in strong winds. Depending on the
bias of the weave, the tear is likely to be at an angle, rather than
right along the rope.

As for
chaffed holes in batten pockets I think that a much preferred repair
would be to, perhaps, shorten the batten a bit and sew up the end of
the pocket. After all the tape won't hold for very long, and port
might be several weeks away.


Right. In 30 knots and a head sea. g If you sew sails while you're
racing, you're losing.


And yes, my "sails ditty bag" has two "palms", a selection of needles,
rigging hook, twine, thread, etc.

And, if you single hand, as I always did, you take a bit of care about
accidental jibes. You can either rig a preventer or buy a jibe
preventer. On the other hand, a cruising boat usually has a deep
enough cockpit that they boom swings over your head.


I've never been a bluewater sailor, but I've done some coastwise
racing, and we *always* had sail tape and patch cloth in the emergency
kit. 'Never had to use them, but I never sailed outside, between
inlets, anyway, with anyone who didn't have a sail-repair kit with
them.


Racing is a very, very, different thing than cruising.


For that matter I never, in 15 years, met anyone with a "PFD", or at
least they wouldn't admit to even knowing what one was. A life jacket,
certainly, but a PFD? Oh la-de-dah, and a flick of the limp wrist to
you too.


They damned well better know what a PFD is. It's in the U.S. Coast
Guard regulations and the regulations of every state that I know of.

U.S. Coast Guard? Who are they?


They're the ones who set our safety regulations, and they're the ones
who will come rescue you when you haven't observed them and do
something stupid.

The have categorized several classes of PFDs. If you sail in U.S.
territorial waters and you don't know which one you have, you aren't
paying attention -- and you may be in a lot of trouble.


Of course we call them "life jackets." But they're regulated as
"PFDs."


PFD's see:
The SOLAS requirements
http://www.pomorci.com/Propisi/80-10...Brakocevic.pdf
they don't seem to be required under international requirements :-)


Gunner is not sailing in international waters.

--
Ed Huntress
  #24   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 09:35:24 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:14:23 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 11:00:06 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:52:53 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 02:00:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:21:39 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.


Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?


Punch a hole in a sail and spend $10 for a roll of sail tape..or spend
$1800 for a new sail. Your choice. As for me...Ill simply put on a
bit of sail tape and keep on sailing. You do know that is a suggested
item in offshore cruising kits right along with flare guns and
PFDs..right?


You know? I spent about 15 years living aboard and sailing off shore
and I don't believe I ever saw an "off shore cruising boat" that had
"sail tape". In fact I'm not sure that some of them would even knew
what it was. One reason, perhaps, is that a cruising sailor doesn't
punch a hole in a sail.

This is getting ridiculous, and it leaves me in the uncomfortable
position of defending Gunner. g

I'd like to know what you mean by "sailing offshore." If you mean
coastwise cruising, and if you head for harbor when the wind is above
20 knots, then more power to you. If you mean you're cruising in blue
water, and if you don't have sail tape in your emergency kit, then
you're one lucky dude. (What do you have in that kit, tarred rope and
a sailor's palm?) Or you buy new sails every year, you oversheet your
main so your batten pockets never luff and chafe...in which case,
you're still a lucky dude if you haven't gotten knocked overboard from
an unexpected jibe. g


I didn't give the term much thought as it is pretty commonly used for
other then day sailing. Perhaps "going somewhere" is better.


Perhaps. But blue-water sailing and coastwise sailing are very
different things.

If you make passages across long stretches of ocean, far from land,
you're a blue-water sailor. If you sail close enough that you can make
harbor in a half-day or less, you're a coastwise sailor. Sailing
between islands in the Antilles doesn't count as "blue-water."

I wouldn't disagree, but when you hang about in Marina's in S.E.A. the
vast majority of the boats you find there are from across long
stretches of ocean, and the folks I've met there didn't carry much
sail tape.


And nope, I really don't know anyone that "goes somewhere" that
carries "sail tape" in their stores. It isn't really much good except
for what Gunner described "punching a hole in your sail".


Loop it aroud a bolt rope for a tear that occurs parallel to the rope.
That's a common tear when racing in strong winds. Depending on the
bias of the weave, the tear is likely to be at an angle, rather than
right along the rope.


I've not met many people that would set out with sails so worn that
there is a danger of the bolt rope ripping out and I'm pretty sure
that they would be reefed down in a 30 K wind (Force 7 near-gale).

As for
chaffed holes in batten pockets I think that a much preferred repair
would be to, perhaps, shorten the batten a bit and sew up the end of
the pocket. After all the tape won't hold for very long, and port
might be several weeks away.


Right. In 30 knots and a head sea. g If you sew sails while you're
racing, you're losing.


As I said below, racing is a very, very, different thing than
cruising.



And yes, my "sails ditty bag" has two "palms", a selection of needles,
rigging hook, twine, thread, etc.

And, if you single hand, as I always did, you take a bit of care about
accidental jibes. You can either rig a preventer or buy a jibe
preventer. On the other hand, a cruising boat usually has a deep
enough cockpit that they boom swings over your head.


I've never been a bluewater sailor, but I've done some coastwise
racing, and we *always* had sail tape and patch cloth in the emergency
kit. 'Never had to use them, but I never sailed outside, between
inlets, anyway, with anyone who didn't have a sail-repair kit with
them.


I stated in the previous post that racing was a very different type of
sailing than just going places. And I remind you that no one talked
about not having sail repair stuff aboard.

Racing is a very, very, different thing than cruising.


For that matter I never, in 15 years, met anyone with a "PFD", or at
least they wouldn't admit to even knowing what one was. A life jacket,
certainly, but a PFD? Oh la-de-dah, and a flick of the limp wrist to
you too.

They damned well better know what a PFD is. It's in the U.S. Coast
Guard regulations and the regulations of every state that I know of.

U.S. Coast Guard? Who are they?


They're the ones who set our safety regulations, and they're the ones
who will come rescue you when you haven't observed them and do
something stupid.


Sorry Ed, but the U.S. Coast Guard hold sway in a relatively small
part of the world's oceans.


The have categorized several classes of PFDs. If you sail in U.S.
territorial waters and you don't know which one you have, you aren't
paying attention -- and you may be in a lot of trouble.


I hate to tell you Ed, but I haven't obeyed a U.S. Coast Guard
regulation in at least 20 years, heck probably closer to 30 years, and
so far haven't had any problems.


Of course we call them "life jackets." But they're regulated as
"PFDs."


PFD's see:
The SOLAS requirements
http://www.pomorci.com/Propisi/80-10...Brakocevic.pdf
they don't seem to be required under international requirements :-)


Gunner is not sailing in international waters.


No, probably not, but I am. And I haven't seen a roll of sail tape in
anyone's cruising kit yet :-) Nor had any marine authority ask me
about a PFD.

Your viewpoint is too insular.
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 08:09:08 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 09:35:24 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:14:23 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 11:00:06 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:52:53 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 02:00:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:21:39 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.


Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?


Punch a hole in a sail and spend $10 for a roll of sail tape..or spend
$1800 for a new sail. Your choice. As for me...Ill simply put on a
bit of sail tape and keep on sailing. You do know that is a suggested
item in offshore cruising kits right along with flare guns and
PFDs..right?


You know? I spent about 15 years living aboard and sailing off shore
and I don't believe I ever saw an "off shore cruising boat" that had
"sail tape". In fact I'm not sure that some of them would even knew
what it was. One reason, perhaps, is that a cruising sailor doesn't
punch a hole in a sail.

This is getting ridiculous, and it leaves me in the uncomfortable
position of defending Gunner. g

I'd like to know what you mean by "sailing offshore." If you mean
coastwise cruising, and if you head for harbor when the wind is above
20 knots, then more power to you. If you mean you're cruising in blue
water, and if you don't have sail tape in your emergency kit, then
you're one lucky dude. (What do you have in that kit, tarred rope and
a sailor's palm?) Or you buy new sails every year, you oversheet your
main so your batten pockets never luff and chafe...in which case,
you're still a lucky dude if you haven't gotten knocked overboard from
an unexpected jibe. g


I didn't give the term much thought as it is pretty commonly used for
other then day sailing. Perhaps "going somewhere" is better.


Perhaps. But blue-water sailing and coastwise sailing are very
different things.

If you make passages across long stretches of ocean, far from land,
you're a blue-water sailor. If you sail close enough that you can make
harbor in a half-day or less, you're a coastwise sailor. Sailing
between islands in the Antilles doesn't count as "blue-water."

I wouldn't disagree, but when you hang about in Marina's in S.E.A. the
vast majority of the boats you find there are from across long
stretches of ocean, and the folks I've met there didn't carry much
sail tape.


And nope, I really don't know anyone that "goes somewhere" that
carries "sail tape" in their stores. It isn't really much good except
for what Gunner described "punching a hole in your sail".


Loop it aroud a bolt rope for a tear that occurs parallel to the rope.
That's a common tear when racing in strong winds. Depending on the
bias of the weave, the tear is likely to be at an angle, rather than
right along the rope.


I've not met many people that would set out with sails so worn that
there is a danger of the bolt rope ripping out and I'm pretty sure
that they would be reefed down in a 30 K wind (Force 7 near-gale).

As for
chaffed holes in batten pockets I think that a much preferred repair
would be to, perhaps, shorten the batten a bit and sew up the end of
the pocket. After all the tape won't hold for very long, and port
might be several weeks away.


Right. In 30 knots and a head sea. g If you sew sails while you're
racing, you're losing.


As I said below, racing is a very, very, different thing than
cruising.



And yes, my "sails ditty bag" has two "palms", a selection of needles,
rigging hook, twine, thread, etc.

And, if you single hand, as I always did, you take a bit of care about
accidental jibes. You can either rig a preventer or buy a jibe
preventer. On the other hand, a cruising boat usually has a deep
enough cockpit that they boom swings over your head.


I've never been a bluewater sailor, but I've done some coastwise
racing, and we *always* had sail tape and patch cloth in the emergency
kit. 'Never had to use them, but I never sailed outside, between
inlets, anyway, with anyone who didn't have a sail-repair kit with
them.


I stated in the previous post that racing was a very different type of
sailing than just going places. And I remind you that no one talked
about not having sail repair stuff aboard.

Racing is a very, very, different thing than cruising.


For that matter I never, in 15 years, met anyone with a "PFD", or at
least they wouldn't admit to even knowing what one was. A life jacket,
certainly, but a PFD? Oh la-de-dah, and a flick of the limp wrist to
you too.

They damned well better know what a PFD is. It's in the U.S. Coast
Guard regulations and the regulations of every state that I know of.

U.S. Coast Guard? Who are they?


They're the ones who set our safety regulations, and they're the ones
who will come rescue you when you haven't observed them and do
something stupid.


Sorry Ed, but the U.S. Coast Guard hold sway in a relatively small
part of the world's oceans.


The have categorized several classes of PFDs. If you sail in U.S.
territorial waters and you don't know which one you have, you aren't
paying attention -- and you may be in a lot of trouble.


I hate to tell you Ed, but I haven't obeyed a U.S. Coast Guard
regulation in at least 20 years, heck probably closer to 30 years, and
so far haven't had any problems.


Of course we call them "life jackets." But they're regulated as
"PFDs."


PFD's see:
The SOLAS requirements
http://www.pomorci.com/Propisi/80-10...Brakocevic.pdf
they don't seem to be required under international requirements :-)


Gunner is not sailing in international waters.


No, probably not, but I am. And I haven't seen a roll of sail tape in
anyone's cruising kit yet :-) Nor had any marine authority ask me
about a PFD.

Your viewpoint is too insular.


My "viewpoint" is the one that was being discussed. Gunner wasn't
talking about sailing in Southeast Asia. Neither was I. Your sarcasm
about "PFDs" apparently is based on your not knowing about the
regulatory environment that the rest of us in this thread have to live
with.

As for your sail-repair kit, I'm pretty sure if I brought up your
point of view on that, amongst most of the offshore sailors here,
they'd ask if you use lignum vitae deadeyes and if your chafing gear
is made of hemp. g

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.

Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.

--
Ed Huntress


  #26   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 185
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 08:09:08 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 09:35:24 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:14:23 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 11:00:06 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:52:53 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 02:00:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:21:39 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/26/2014 3:13 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Not all boats are Beaters.

In fact..most of the boats below in the two groups are NOT beaters,
but perfectly good usable boats. Yep..some need lines or a sail
patch..shrug.


Sail PATCH?

Are you for freaking real?

Buy a suit of sail.

Oh my, not in YOUR budget?


Punch a hole in a sail and spend $10 for a roll of sail tape..or spend
$1800 for a new sail. Your choice. As for me...Ill simply put on a
bit of sail tape and keep on sailing. You do know that is a suggested
item in offshore cruising kits right along with flare guns and
PFDs..right?


You know? I spent about 15 years living aboard and sailing off shore
and I don't believe I ever saw an "off shore cruising boat" that had
"sail tape". In fact I'm not sure that some of them would even knew
what it was. One reason, perhaps, is that a cruising sailor doesn't
punch a hole in a sail.

This is getting ridiculous, and it leaves me in the uncomfortable
position of defending Gunner. g

I'd like to know what you mean by "sailing offshore." If you mean
coastwise cruising, and if you head for harbor when the wind is above
20 knots, then more power to you. If you mean you're cruising in blue
water, and if you don't have sail tape in your emergency kit, then
you're one lucky dude. (What do you have in that kit, tarred rope and
a sailor's palm?) Or you buy new sails every year, you oversheet your
main so your batten pockets never luff and chafe...in which case,
you're still a lucky dude if you haven't gotten knocked overboard from
an unexpected jibe. g


I didn't give the term much thought as it is pretty commonly used for
other then day sailing. Perhaps "going somewhere" is better.

Perhaps. But blue-water sailing and coastwise sailing are very
different things.

If you make passages across long stretches of ocean, far from land,
you're a blue-water sailor. If you sail close enough that you can make
harbor in a half-day or less, you're a coastwise sailor. Sailing
between islands in the Antilles doesn't count as "blue-water."

I wouldn't disagree, but when you hang about in Marina's in S.E.A. the
vast majority of the boats you find there are from across long
stretches of ocean, and the folks I've met there didn't carry much
sail tape.


And nope, I really don't know anyone that "goes somewhere" that
carries "sail tape" in their stores. It isn't really much good except
for what Gunner described "punching a hole in your sail".

Loop it aroud a bolt rope for a tear that occurs parallel to the rope.
That's a common tear when racing in strong winds. Depending on the
bias of the weave, the tear is likely to be at an angle, rather than
right along the rope.


I've not met many people that would set out with sails so worn that
there is a danger of the bolt rope ripping out and I'm pretty sure
that they would be reefed down in a 30 K wind (Force 7 near-gale).

As for
chaffed holes in batten pockets I think that a much preferred repair
would be to, perhaps, shorten the batten a bit and sew up the end of
the pocket. After all the tape won't hold for very long, and port
might be several weeks away.

Right. In 30 knots and a head sea. g If you sew sails while you're
racing, you're losing.


As I said below, racing is a very, very, different thing than
cruising.



And yes, my "sails ditty bag" has two "palms", a selection of needles,
rigging hook, twine, thread, etc.

And, if you single hand, as I always did, you take a bit of care about
accidental jibes. You can either rig a preventer or buy a jibe
preventer. On the other hand, a cruising boat usually has a deep
enough cockpit that they boom swings over your head.


I've never been a bluewater sailor, but I've done some coastwise
racing, and we *always* had sail tape and patch cloth in the emergency
kit. 'Never had to use them, but I never sailed outside, between
inlets, anyway, with anyone who didn't have a sail-repair kit with
them.


I stated in the previous post that racing was a very different type of
sailing than just going places. And I remind you that no one talked
about not having sail repair stuff aboard.

Racing is a very, very, different thing than cruising.


For that matter I never, in 15 years, met anyone with a "PFD", or at
least they wouldn't admit to even knowing what one was. A life jacket,
certainly, but a PFD? Oh la-de-dah, and a flick of the limp wrist to
you too.

They damned well better know what a PFD is. It's in the U.S. Coast
Guard regulations and the regulations of every state that I know of.

U.S. Coast Guard? Who are they?

They're the ones who set our safety regulations, and they're the ones
who will come rescue you when you haven't observed them and do
something stupid.


Sorry Ed, but the U.S. Coast Guard hold sway in a relatively small
part of the world's oceans.


The have categorized several classes of PFDs. If you sail in U.S.
territorial waters and you don't know which one you have, you aren't
paying attention -- and you may be in a lot of trouble.


I hate to tell you Ed, but I haven't obeyed a U.S. Coast Guard
regulation in at least 20 years, heck probably closer to 30 years, and
so far haven't had any problems.


Of course we call them "life jackets." But they're regulated as
"PFDs."


PFD's see:
The SOLAS requirements
http://www.pomorci.com/Propisi/80-10...Brakocevic.pdf
they don't seem to be required under international requirements :-)

Gunner is not sailing in international waters.


No, probably not, but I am. And I haven't seen a roll of sail tape in
anyone's cruising kit yet :-) Nor had any marine authority ask me
about a PFD.

Your viewpoint is too insular.


My "viewpoint" is the one that was being discussed. Gunner wasn't
talking about sailing in Southeast Asia. Neither was I. Your sarcasm
about "PFDs" apparently is based on your not knowing about the
regulatory environment that the rest of us in this thread have to live
with.


Ah Ed, I did start my comments by saying "You know? I spent about 15
years living aboard and sailing off shore", which I thought made quite
obvious that I wasn't talking about sailing on a lake... or racing for
that matter.

As for your sail-repair kit, I'm pretty sure if I brought up your
point of view on that, amongst most of the offshore sailors here,
they'd ask if you use lignum vitae deadeyes and if your chafing gear
is made of hemp. g


No Ed, we don't use archaic stuff any more. But neither do we use some
sticky tape to mend sails particularly when we think we'll be out in
30 K winds.

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.


I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.

--
Cheers,

John B.
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On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:


snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.


I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.


Cheers,


John B.


It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.

And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.

Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.

--
Ed Huntress
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On 10/29/2014 9:10 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:


snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.


I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.


Cheers,


John B.


It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.

And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.

Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.


Because once you paint a hull - even with the very best paints - the
maintenance truly begins.

But that's not the real problem here.

The REAL problem is that Gunner is a stalking troll.
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On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 12:53:34 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 10/29/2014 9:10 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:


snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.


I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.


Cheers,


John B.


It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.

And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.

Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.


Because once you paint a hull - even with the very best paints - the
maintenance truly begins.


Reports on two-part polyurethanes suggest a 5 - 10 year life in a
marine environment. The "maintenance" troubles typically are the
result of poor preparation. An old polyester gel coat is weak and
porous. You have to sand most of it off. Most amateurs leave too much
of it on.


But that's not the real problem here.

The REAL problem is that Gunner is a stalking troll.


OK, I get that.

--
Ed Huntress
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On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 10:54:15 AM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On 10/29/2014 9:10 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:


snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail..


I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.


Cheers,


John B.


It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.

And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.

Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.


Because once you paint a hull - even with the very best paints - the
maintenance truly begins.

But that's not the real problem here.

The REAL problem is that Gunner is a stalking troll.



Wieber tried that **** with me and I made it so painful and embarrassing for him that he stopped. Wieber now tries lame potshots here and there because he's a pussy. Frankly, I enjoy it when assholes try and **** with me be. It's especially easy because I don't try and be an expert like Wieber and slow eddy do on every subject. For the most part I stick with what I know which isn't sailboats, fiberglass, electronics, etc.











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On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:10:39 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:


snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.


I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.


Cheers,


John B.


It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

In tropical countries it is quite common to see old fiberglass boats
with "chalky" finishes due to UV deterioration. While this may or may
not be a serious problem depends on the individual case but the
turning up of the nose at fiberglass boats that need paint is
certainly not a frivolous notion.

There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.


Ed, I think in this case you really don't have all the facts. I've got
a good friend in the business and certainly he will re gel-coat your
boat for you, but it costs far more money than a two part polyurethane
paint job, which is not necessarily "similar to paint on high class
cars" as in many cases it is the same stuff. Dupont Imron comes to
mind.

And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.


If "Polyester gel coats" are porous then so is the whole hull as
"gel-coat" is commonly just polyester resin with an added pigment.

Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.


I suspect that it is because properly painting a deteriorated
gel-coated hull is an expensive proposition as to do a good job you
first need to remove the old gel-coat down to a smooth solid surface
and removing gel-coat is a pain in the butt and pains in the butt tend
to be expensive. Additionally, I suspect, it may well be extra costly
in the U.S. due to your environmental laws. I read somewhere that a
U.S. yard had refused to allow removing old copper bottom paint as
they said it would get them in trouble with the environmental people.
--
Cheers,

John B.
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On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:46:39 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:10:39 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:


snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.


I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.


Cheers,


John B.


It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

In tropical countries it is quite common to see old fiberglass boats
with "chalky" finishes due to UV deterioration.


It's the same here on the mid-Atlantic coast.

While this may or may
not be a serious problem depends on the individual case but the
turning up of the nose at fiberglass boats that need paint is
certainly not a frivolous notion.


It depends. But it's not accurate to make a blanket statement about
it. Eventually, even well-built boats need a new coating of some kind.


There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.


Ed, I think in this case you really don't have all the facts. I've got
a good friend in the business and certainly he will re gel-coat your
boat for you, but it costs far more money than a two part polyurethane
paint job


Spray-on polyester get coat is a lot cheaper than two-part
polyurethane -- somewhere around 1/3 the cost. There are quality yards
throughout the Northeast that will replace a gel coat with a new
sprayed-on polyester gel coat.

But then it's a matter of how good you want your finish to be.
As-spraryed, polyurethane is done. You can't rub it out without
ruining its durability, but, if it was done right, you don't have to.
(The one-part acrylic polyurethanes can be rubbed out, but that's a
different material.)

Gel coat, on the other hand, generally looks lousy, as-sprayed. It has
to be levelled and rubbed out. It can require a lot of labor, which
will raise the cost above the cost of a polyurethane finish.

, which is not necessarily "similar to paint on high class
cars" as in many cases it is the same stuff. Dupont Imron comes to
mind.


Yeah, it often is the same stuff. Others are similar. I haven't seen a
car painted with Interlux, but then, I've never asked. d8-)


And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.


If "Polyester gel coats" are porous then so is the whole hull as
"gel-coat" is commonly just polyester resin with an added pigment.


It is porous; water enters through diffusion and by capillary action:

http://tinyurl.com/nmxdnlk

And the more styrene there is in the resin, the more porous it becomes
over time. Cheaper boats generally have more styrene in the resin.
Polyester resin is permeable, even without styrene. Epoxy is much less
so. Likewise, polyurethane.

It's not widely appreciated how much this degrades the interlaminar
strength of polyester-resin composites.

There are more additives in polyester gel coat than just pigment, for
scratch resistance, UV protection, and so on.


Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.


I suspect that it is because properly painting a deteriorated
gel-coated hull is an expensive proposition as to do a good job you
first need to remove the old gel-coat down to a smooth solid surface
and removing gel-coat is a pain in the butt and pains in the butt tend
to be expensive. Additionally, I suspect, it may well be extra costly
in the U.S. due to your environmental laws. I read somewhere that a
U.S. yard had refused to allow removing old copper bottom paint as
they said it would get them in trouble with the environmental people.


We don't use much copper bottom paint anymore, largely for that
reason. Bottom paints now are usually *very* specific to the regional
waters one will sail in. I got away without bottom paint for a whole
year by sailing my little Cape Dory Typhoon up a freshwater creek once
a week. It killed everything growing on the bottom.

--
Ed Huntress
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On 30/10/14 13:05, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:46:39 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:10:39 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:
snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.

I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.
Cheers,
John B.
It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

In tropical countries it is quite common to see old fiberglass boats
with "chalky" finishes due to UV deterioration.

It's the same here on the mid-Atlantic coast.

While this may or may
not be a serious problem depends on the individual case but the
turning up of the nose at fiberglass boats that need paint is
certainly not a frivolous notion.

It depends. But it's not accurate to make a blanket statement about
it. Eventually, even well-built boats need a new coating of some kind.

There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.

Ed, I think in this case you really don't have all the facts. I've got
a good friend in the business and certainly he will re gel-coat your
boat for you, but it costs far more money than a two part polyurethane
paint job

Spray-on polyester get coat is a lot cheaper than two-part
polyurethane -- somewhere around 1/3 the cost. There are quality yards
throughout the Northeast that will replace a gel coat with a new
sprayed-on polyester gel coat.

But then it's a matter of how good you want your finish to be.
As-spraryed, polyurethane is done. You can't rub it out without
ruining its durability, but, if it was done right, you don't have to.
(The one-part acrylic polyurethanes can be rubbed out, but that's a
different material.)

Gel coat, on the other hand, generally looks lousy, as-sprayed. It has
to be levelled and rubbed out. It can require a lot of labor, which
will raise the cost above the cost of a polyurethane finish.

, which is not necessarily "similar to paint on high class
cars" as in many cases it is the same stuff. Dupont Imron comes to
mind.

Yeah, it often is the same stuff. Others are similar. I haven't seen a
car painted with Interlux, but then, I've never asked. d8-)

And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.

If "Polyester gel coats" are porous then so is the whole hull as
"gel-coat" is commonly just polyester resin with an added pigment.

It is porous; water enters through diffusion and by capillary action:

http://tinyurl.com/nmxdnlk

And the more styrene there is in the resin, the more porous it becomes
over time. Cheaper boats generally have more styrene in the resin.
Polyester resin is permeable, even without styrene. Epoxy is much less
so. Likewise, polyurethane.

It's not widely appreciated how much this degrades the interlaminar
strength of polyester-resin composites.

There are more additives in polyester gel coat than just pigment, for
scratch resistance, UV protection, and so on.

Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.

I suspect that it is because properly painting a deteriorated
gel-coated hull is an expensive proposition as to do a good job you
first need to remove the old gel-coat down to a smooth solid surface
and removing gel-coat is a pain in the butt and pains in the butt tend
to be expensive. Additionally, I suspect, it may well be extra costly
in the U.S. due to your environmental laws. I read somewhere that a
U.S. yard had refused to allow removing old copper bottom paint as
they said it would get them in trouble with the environmental people.

We don't use much copper bottom paint anymore, largely for that
reason. Bottom paints now are usually *very* specific to the regional
waters one will sail in. I got away without bottom paint for a whole
year by sailing my little Cape Dory Typhoon up a freshwater creek once
a week. It killed everything growing on the bottom.

I expect the stuff my dad made up in the early 1970s would be frowned
upon these days and classify the boat as HAZMAT. He had made a 26'
Alaskan salmon dory when we lived in Huntington LI NY and the first year
when it came out of the water for winter storage there were quite a few
barnacles even with the antifouling paint. The hardware store owner
where it was being stored said not to bother with off the shelf stuff,
even the good stuff, but make your own and gave my dad the recipe which
was a cheap antifouling paint base with some added industrial strength
disinfectant that you could buy in vials in town, and powdered copper.
The next year when it came out there were no barnacles. Might not have
been much sea life near where it was moored but Huntington harbour was
pretty contaminated at the time anyway.
  #34   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 19:45:44 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 30/10/14 13:05, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:46:39 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:10:39 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:
snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.

I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.
Cheers,
John B.
It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

In tropical countries it is quite common to see old fiberglass boats
with "chalky" finishes due to UV deterioration.

It's the same here on the mid-Atlantic coast.

While this may or may
not be a serious problem depends on the individual case but the
turning up of the nose at fiberglass boats that need paint is
certainly not a frivolous notion.

It depends. But it's not accurate to make a blanket statement about
it. Eventually, even well-built boats need a new coating of some kind.

There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.
Ed, I think in this case you really don't have all the facts. I've got
a good friend in the business and certainly he will re gel-coat your
boat for you, but it costs far more money than a two part polyurethane
paint job

Spray-on polyester get coat is a lot cheaper than two-part
polyurethane -- somewhere around 1/3 the cost. There are quality yards
throughout the Northeast that will replace a gel coat with a new
sprayed-on polyester gel coat.

But then it's a matter of how good you want your finish to be.
As-spraryed, polyurethane is done. You can't rub it out without
ruining its durability, but, if it was done right, you don't have to.
(The one-part acrylic polyurethanes can be rubbed out, but that's a
different material.)

Gel coat, on the other hand, generally looks lousy, as-sprayed. It has
to be levelled and rubbed out. It can require a lot of labor, which
will raise the cost above the cost of a polyurethane finish.

, which is not necessarily "similar to paint on high class
cars" as in many cases it is the same stuff. Dupont Imron comes to
mind.

Yeah, it often is the same stuff. Others are similar. I haven't seen a
car painted with Interlux, but then, I've never asked. d8-)

And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.
If "Polyester gel coats" are porous then so is the whole hull as
"gel-coat" is commonly just polyester resin with an added pigment.

It is porous; water enters through diffusion and by capillary action:

http://tinyurl.com/nmxdnlk

And the more styrene there is in the resin, the more porous it becomes
over time. Cheaper boats generally have more styrene in the resin.
Polyester resin is permeable, even without styrene. Epoxy is much less
so. Likewise, polyurethane.

It's not widely appreciated how much this degrades the interlaminar
strength of polyester-resin composites.

There are more additives in polyester gel coat than just pigment, for
scratch resistance, UV protection, and so on.

Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.
I suspect that it is because properly painting a deteriorated
gel-coated hull is an expensive proposition as to do a good job you
first need to remove the old gel-coat down to a smooth solid surface
and removing gel-coat is a pain in the butt and pains in the butt tend
to be expensive. Additionally, I suspect, it may well be extra costly
in the U.S. due to your environmental laws. I read somewhere that a
U.S. yard had refused to allow removing old copper bottom paint as
they said it would get them in trouble with the environmental people.

We don't use much copper bottom paint anymore, largely for that
reason. Bottom paints now are usually *very* specific to the regional
waters one will sail in. I got away without bottom paint for a whole
year by sailing my little Cape Dory Typhoon up a freshwater creek once
a week. It killed everything growing on the bottom.

I expect the stuff my dad made up in the early 1970s would be frowned
upon these days and classify the boat as HAZMAT. He had made a 26'
Alaskan salmon dory when we lived in Huntington LI NY and the first year
when it came out of the water for winter storage there were quite a few
barnacles even with the antifouling paint. The hardware store owner
where it was being stored said not to bother with off the shelf stuff,
even the good stuff, but make your own and gave my dad the recipe which
was a cheap antifouling paint base with some added industrial strength
disinfectant that you could buy in vials in town, and powdered copper.
The next year when it came out there were no barnacles. Might not have
been much sea life near where it was moored but Huntington harbour was
pretty contaminated at the time anyway.


As I always say, "If you want good performance, look for the sign of
the skull and crossbones." d8-)

--
Ed Huntress
  #35   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 09:05:21 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:46:39 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:10:39 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.


I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.

Cheers,

John B.

It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

In tropical countries it is quite common to see old fiberglass boats
with "chalky" finishes due to UV deterioration.


It's the same here on the mid-Atlantic coast.

While this may or may
not be a serious problem depends on the individual case but the
turning up of the nose at fiberglass boats that need paint is
certainly not a frivolous notion.


It depends. But it's not accurate to make a blanket statement about
it. Eventually, even well-built boats need a new coating of some kind.

Richard's "blanket statement" as I remember it was something like "I
wouldn't buy a boat that had to be painted" or something similar... It
seems like a perfectly legitimate statement.


There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.


Ed, I think in this case you really don't have all the facts. I've got
a good friend in the business and certainly he will re gel-coat your
boat for you, but it costs far more money than a two part polyurethane
paint job


Spray-on polyester get coat is a lot cheaper than two-part
polyurethane -- somewhere around 1/3 the cost. There are quality yards
throughout the Northeast that will replace a gel coat with a new
sprayed-on polyester gel coat.

But then it's a matter of how good you want your finish to be.
As-spraryed, polyurethane is done. You can't rub it out without
ruining its durability, but, if it was done right, you don't have to.
(The one-part acrylic polyurethanes can be rubbed out, but that's a
different material.)

Gel coat, on the other hand, generally looks lousy, as-sprayed. It has
to be levelled and rubbed out. It can require a lot of labor, which
will raise the cost above the cost of a polyurethane finish.


Which, without going into details was pretty much what I said about my
mate "the fiberglass guy". Who is quite willing to do you a re-coating
with gel-coat. If you are willing to pay for it.

All that sanding, rubbing and polishing costs money. Even in a
developing country :-)

, which is not necessarily "similar to paint on high class
cars" as in many cases it is the same stuff. Dupont Imron comes to
mind.


Yeah, it often is the same stuff. Others are similar. I haven't seen a
car painted with Interlux, but then, I've never asked. d8-)


And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.


If "Polyester gel coats" are porous then so is the whole hull as
"gel-coat" is commonly just polyester resin with an added pigment.


It is porous; water enters through diffusion and by capillary action:

http://tinyurl.com/nmxdnlk

And the more styrene there is in the resin, the more porous it becomes
over time. Cheaper boats generally have more styrene in the resin.
Polyester resin is permeable, even without styrene. Epoxy is much less
so. Likewise, polyurethane.

It's not widely appreciated how much this degrades the interlaminar
strength of polyester-resin composites.

I think that statement applies more to people that buy boats rather
then the boating industry as a whole. Certainly blistering, Osmosis it
is usually called, a common fault with polyester boats, seems to be
pretty well known.

Your reference (above) spells out the problem of polyester versus
epoxy - cost. I believe that the better quality boats now incorporate
a layer of vinyl ester (vinylester?) as a water proofing means. (Not
as effective as epoxy but much, much, cheaper :-)

There are more additives in polyester gel coat than just pigment, for
scratch resistance, UV protection, and so on.

That is not necessarily true. I've watched shops building 25 ft. power
boats here and seen how they mix the gel-coat. Just plain polyester
resin and a pigment.


Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.


I suspect that it is because properly painting a deteriorated
gel-coated hull is an expensive proposition as to do a good job you
first need to remove the old gel-coat down to a smooth solid surface
and removing gel-coat is a pain in the butt and pains in the butt tend
to be expensive. Additionally, I suspect, it may well be extra costly
in the U.S. due to your environmental laws. I read somewhere that a
U.S. yard had refused to allow removing old copper bottom paint as
they said it would get them in trouble with the environmental people.


We don't use much copper bottom paint anymore, largely for that
reason. Bottom paints now are usually *very* specific to the regional
waters one will sail in. I got away without bottom paint for a whole
year by sailing my little Cape Dory Typhoon up a freshwater creek once
a week. It killed everything growing on the bottom.


Yes, I know. I once bought a quart of real copper paint - powdered
copper and some sort of binder - local made paint and much cheaper
then the foreign made "bottom paint". I used it on a dinghy and even
there it wasn't really a very good anti-fouling paint.

I asked, sometime later, about "what is this stuff used for" and the
shop told me that most of their sales were to "fishing boats". Which
given their location probably meant the big Thai wooden fishing boats,
say 50 - 70 ft. and they are hauled every year and are under way
probably 75 - 80 percent of the time. Which does make a difference.

But you are correct, bottom paint is like the old English saying,
"Horses for courses". Practical Boat Owner, a British magazine, tried
to do a definitive test of bottom paints and made test panels that
were exposed in all the larger harbors in England (and I think
Scotland) and they determined that "there's no telling" as a paint
that worked well in one location failed in others. They couldn't even
get results that were general - "this paint works well in southern
harbors" - as there seemed to be no correlation between any specifics
that they could discover.
--
Cheers,

John B.


  #36   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 19:45:44 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 30/10/14 13:05, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:46:39 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:10:39 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:
snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.

I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.
Cheers,
John B.
It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

In tropical countries it is quite common to see old fiberglass boats
with "chalky" finishes due to UV deterioration.

It's the same here on the mid-Atlantic coast.

While this may or may
not be a serious problem depends on the individual case but the
turning up of the nose at fiberglass boats that need paint is
certainly not a frivolous notion.

It depends. But it's not accurate to make a blanket statement about
it. Eventually, even well-built boats need a new coating of some kind.

There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.
Ed, I think in this case you really don't have all the facts. I've got
a good friend in the business and certainly he will re gel-coat your
boat for you, but it costs far more money than a two part polyurethane
paint job

Spray-on polyester get coat is a lot cheaper than two-part
polyurethane -- somewhere around 1/3 the cost. There are quality yards
throughout the Northeast that will replace a gel coat with a new
sprayed-on polyester gel coat.

But then it's a matter of how good you want your finish to be.
As-spraryed, polyurethane is done. You can't rub it out without
ruining its durability, but, if it was done right, you don't have to.
(The one-part acrylic polyurethanes can be rubbed out, but that's a
different material.)

Gel coat, on the other hand, generally looks lousy, as-sprayed. It has
to be levelled and rubbed out. It can require a lot of labor, which
will raise the cost above the cost of a polyurethane finish.

, which is not necessarily "similar to paint on high class
cars" as in many cases it is the same stuff. Dupont Imron comes to
mind.

Yeah, it often is the same stuff. Others are similar. I haven't seen a
car painted with Interlux, but then, I've never asked. d8-)

And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.
If "Polyester gel coats" are porous then so is the whole hull as
"gel-coat" is commonly just polyester resin with an added pigment.

It is porous; water enters through diffusion and by capillary action:

http://tinyurl.com/nmxdnlk

And the more styrene there is in the resin, the more porous it becomes
over time. Cheaper boats generally have more styrene in the resin.
Polyester resin is permeable, even without styrene. Epoxy is much less
so. Likewise, polyurethane.

It's not widely appreciated how much this degrades the interlaminar
strength of polyester-resin composites.

There are more additives in polyester gel coat than just pigment, for
scratch resistance, UV protection, and so on.

Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.
I suspect that it is because properly painting a deteriorated
gel-coated hull is an expensive proposition as to do a good job you
first need to remove the old gel-coat down to a smooth solid surface
and removing gel-coat is a pain in the butt and pains in the butt tend
to be expensive. Additionally, I suspect, it may well be extra costly
in the U.S. due to your environmental laws. I read somewhere that a
U.S. yard had refused to allow removing old copper bottom paint as
they said it would get them in trouble with the environmental people.

We don't use much copper bottom paint anymore, largely for that
reason. Bottom paints now are usually *very* specific to the regional
waters one will sail in. I got away without bottom paint for a whole
year by sailing my little Cape Dory Typhoon up a freshwater creek once
a week. It killed everything growing on the bottom.

I expect the stuff my dad made up in the early 1970s would be frowned
upon these days and classify the boat as HAZMAT. He had made a 26'
Alaskan salmon dory when we lived in Huntington LI NY and the first year
when it came out of the water for winter storage there were quite a few
barnacles even with the antifouling paint. The hardware store owner
where it was being stored said not to bother with off the shelf stuff,
even the good stuff, but make your own and gave my dad the recipe which
was a cheap antifouling paint base with some added industrial strength
disinfectant that you could buy in vials in town, and powdered copper.
The next year when it came out there were no barnacles. Might not have
been much sea life near where it was moored but Huntington harbour was
pretty contaminated at the time anyway.


The additive was probably TBT (tributyl tin) which is a very
effective ingredient of anti-fouling paint - now illegal in all
countries. It is also sold as an anti mold additive for house paint, I
believe. Somewhere I've got instructions for mixing TBT (for house
paint) with anti-fouling paint to increase its potency. It takes a
surprisingly small amount (less then 10% I believe) to make a very
effective anti-fouling paint.
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #37   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 08:38:44 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 09:05:21 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:46:39 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:10:39 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:46:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 06:37:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

snip

Anyway, your sarcasm was misplaced, as was Richard's. I don't know
what the hell he was talking about regarding boat paints. And when you
popped off about PFDs, it was clear that you don't sail where we sail.


I think Richard was probably referring to the fact that most, if not
all, small production fiberglass boats have the hull finished with gel
coat and a boat requiring paint would be one on which the gel coat had
deteriorated to a considerable degree.


Enjoy your sailing in S.E.A., John.

Cheers,

John B.

It's true that failing gel coats on lightly-built fiberglass boats may
reflect fatigue in the hull layup, but I don't see that as a reason to
make a blanket statement about it. Strongly-built boats, like a Boston
Whaler, Black Watch, Cape Dory or Stone Horse, will FAR outlast their
gel coats, and it has nothing to do with fatigue -- because those
boats generally don't fatigue.

In tropical countries it is quite common to see old fiberglass boats
with "chalky" finishes due to UV deterioration.


It's the same here on the mid-Atlantic coast.

While this may or may
not be a serious problem depends on the individual case but the
turning up of the nose at fiberglass boats that need paint is
certainly not a frivolous notion.


It depends. But it's not accurate to make a blanket statement about
it. Eventually, even well-built boats need a new coating of some kind.

Richard's "blanket statement" as I remember it was something like "I
wouldn't buy a boat that had to be painted" or something similar... It
seems like a perfectly legitimate statement.


There's an entire industry dedicated to re-covering those boats. It
satarted with a spray-on replacement gel coat around 1960; progressed
a few years later to sprayed-on two-part epoxy; and, finally,
developed into re-coating with two-part polyurethanes, a lot like the
paint used on high-class custom cars.

Ed, I think in this case you really don't have all the facts. I've got
a good friend in the business and certainly he will re gel-coat your
boat for you, but it costs far more money than a two part polyurethane
paint job


Spray-on polyester get coat is a lot cheaper than two-part
polyurethane -- somewhere around 1/3 the cost. There are quality yards
throughout the Northeast that will replace a gel coat with a new
sprayed-on polyester gel coat.

But then it's a matter of how good you want your finish to be.
As-spraryed, polyurethane is done. You can't rub it out without
ruining its durability, but, if it was done right, you don't have to.
(The one-part acrylic polyurethanes can be rubbed out, but that's a
different material.)

Gel coat, on the other hand, generally looks lousy, as-sprayed. It has
to be levelled and rubbed out. It can require a lot of labor, which
will raise the cost above the cost of a polyurethane finish.


Which, without going into details was pretty much what I said about my
mate "the fiberglass guy". Who is quite willing to do you a re-coating
with gel-coat. If you are willing to pay for it.

All that sanding, rubbing and polishing costs money. Even in a
developing country :-)

, which is not necessarily "similar to paint on high class
cars" as in many cases it is the same stuff. Dupont Imron comes to
mind.


Yeah, it often is the same stuff. Others are similar. I haven't seen a
car painted with Interlux, but then, I've never asked. d8-)


And polyester gel coats are porous; they can get stained, or marked up
badly because of the way they were tied up at a dock.

If "Polyester gel coats" are porous then so is the whole hull as
"gel-coat" is commonly just polyester resin with an added pigment.


It is porous; water enters through diffusion and by capillary action:

http://tinyurl.com/nmxdnlk

And the more styrene there is in the resin, the more porous it becomes
over time. Cheaper boats generally have more styrene in the resin.
Polyester resin is permeable, even without styrene. Epoxy is much less
so. Likewise, polyurethane.

It's not widely appreciated how much this degrades the interlaminar
strength of polyester-resin composites.

I think that statement applies more to people that buy boats rather
then the boating industry as a whole. Certainly blistering, Osmosis it
is usually called, a common fault with polyester boats, seems to be
pretty well known.


It's not just osmosis. It's also diffusion and outright capillary
absorption. The weight gain of a boat that sits in water for a year
can be significant, particularly if the boat is a few years old.

With polyester resin, the capillary action is accelerated by the
breakdown of the resin-to-fiber bonds, which are substantial to begin
with and get worse over time. Polyester resin is a lousy adhesive and
it shrinks quite a bit during curing, which shears the bonds. Then
water makes it worse. You may have noted in that article that the
shear strength of a thin (as in most small boats) laminate typically
falls off by 35% after a year of sitting in water.

Gel coat is not much protection.


Your reference (above) spells out the problem of polyester versus
epoxy - cost. I believe that the better quality boats now incorporate
a layer of vinyl ester (vinylester?) as a water proofing means. (Not
as effective as epoxy but much, much, cheaper :-)

There are more additives in polyester gel coat than just pigment, for
scratch resistance, UV protection, and so on.

That is not necessarily true. I've watched shops building 25 ft. power
boats here and seen how they mix the gel-coat. Just plain polyester
resin and a pigment.


I worked as a bonder at Ranger Yachts in the early '70s. We did not
mix our own gel coat.



Gunner is more likely talking about rolling on a coat of house paint
g, but I don't get why Richard was so dismissive about painting a
boat. There are a lot of boats around here right now that are dry
docked or up on stilts, having their topsides painted at the same time
they're getting a new coat of bottom paint, before the weather gets
too cold. Most of them are fiberglass boats.

I suspect that it is because properly painting a deteriorated
gel-coated hull is an expensive proposition as to do a good job you
first need to remove the old gel-coat down to a smooth solid surface
and removing gel-coat is a pain in the butt and pains in the butt tend
to be expensive. Additionally, I suspect, it may well be extra costly
in the U.S. due to your environmental laws. I read somewhere that a
U.S. yard had refused to allow removing old copper bottom paint as
they said it would get them in trouble with the environmental people.


We don't use much copper bottom paint anymore, largely for that
reason. Bottom paints now are usually *very* specific to the regional
waters one will sail in. I got away without bottom paint for a whole
year by sailing my little Cape Dory Typhoon up a freshwater creek once
a week. It killed everything growing on the bottom.


Yes, I know. I once bought a quart of real copper paint - powdered
copper and some sort of binder - local made paint and much cheaper
then the foreign made "bottom paint". I used it on a dinghy and even
there it wasn't really a very good anti-fouling paint.

I asked, sometime later, about "what is this stuff used for" and the
shop told me that most of their sales were to "fishing boats". Which
given their location probably meant the big Thai wooden fishing boats,
say 50 - 70 ft. and they are hauled every year and are under way
probably 75 - 80 percent of the time. Which does make a difference.

But you are correct, bottom paint is like the old English saying,
"Horses for courses". Practical Boat Owner, a British magazine, tried
to do a definitive test of bottom paints and made test panels that
were exposed in all the larger harbors in England (and I think
Scotland) and they determined that "there's no telling" as a paint
that worked well in one location failed in others. They couldn't even
get results that were general - "this paint works well in southern
harbors" - as there seemed to be no correlation between any specifics
that they could discover.


The local yards find out what works from local experience, and stick
with it. It's really amazing how much difference there is from one
location to another.

--
Ed Huntress
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On 10/30/2014 8:38 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Richard's "blanket statement" as I remember it was something like "I
wouldn't buy a boat that had to be painted" or something similar... It
seems like a perfectly legitimate statement.


snippage

Thanks, Capt'n.

I think he may have been a bit more adamant about it. Maybe to the point
of a Never Ever! but yeah, that was about the gist of it.


Which, without going into details was pretty much what I said about my
mate "the fiberglass guy". Who is quite willing to do you a re-coating
with gel-coat. If you are willing to pay for it.

All that sanding, rubbing and polishing costs money. Even in a
developing country :-)


It all depends on your personal standards, of course.

Some people think a chalky boat is the epitome of success - because
it takes no effort to maintain. And they are perfectly right -
for them.

I take a different tack - (or maybe "they" do?) but I adore a nice
shiny hull.

I picked up my technique from a fellow who goes by the handle
Maine Sail. He has written an awful lot about repairing and
maintaining boats, and I have joined the choir there.

The best collection is he
http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners....play.php?f=135


I bought the Ryoby variable speed buffer he recommended - and learned
to use it. I's amazing what you can bring back from the dead that way.
(For various values of dead, of course!)

I started gelcoat craziness with our Capri 18, "Spirit". The surfaces
needed wet sanding first, then polishing. That took a week in all.
Sanding, buffing and waxing. But the finish lasted for years
afterwards, with only an occasional wash and wax.

"Temptress", our Capri 26, was the national fleet flagship for several
years. I didn't need much more incentive to go overboard on her.

But that's a lot more boat. I hired out the buffing part.
Happily!

Here is a link to Maine Sail's article about bringing gelcoat back to
life: http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners....d.php?t=117266

Another phobia picked up from the same source is silicone.
It's perhaps the most misused substance on the planet - or maybe
runs a close second to 3M 4200.

My deck hardware is bedded with high quality Butyl rubber tape.
Now, note: I said High-Quality and Tape (not cheap putty mashed out to
look like tape). The putty-tape is commonly used in RV construction
where it often contributes to hard-to-find leaks. It has no place on a
boat.

I've used Bed-It butyl tape on several boats and guarantee the results.
http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners....d.php?t=117172

And help for cored deck and hull penetrations:
How to keep water out of a balsa or plywood deck core.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/sealing_the_deck

A lot of work?
Maybe.

But a job that doesn't have to be reworked all the time is worth the
extra expense and effort.
At least that's how I feel.

It all depends on your personal standards...
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Default 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

But that's boats.

This project was a lot more fun - and less sweat.
And there was even a little metal-working involved here!

This all came about because I wanted a ray gun.
A real honest to gosh ray gun!
I guess the Buck Rogers weapons were okay - for their day.
But the Bugs Bunny / Marvin the Martian type was the one.
And it really really works! (echoes of Ron Propeil!?!)

The basic design. Kinda spiffy, huh?
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-01.jpg


The shell is hand laid fiberglass over a foam core using 8 ounce woven
cloth and west 105 epoxy. Both were selected after a detailed study
of what was in the scrap box. Most of the glass was laid on in small
patches because of the curvature, but every lay-up was closed out with a
full sized wrap to help keep loose strings under control and give a
smoother surface. In all three separate lay-ups were done to get the
final shell. Using West 105 with 205 (fast) hardener the resin kicks
and can be handled in half an hour. So it didn't take long to make the
shell.

The core was dissolved out with a little lacquer thinner leaving a the
body hollow, but the insides sharp as 40 grit sandpaper.

The shell was then filed and sanded inside and out to a smooth surface
and finally gelcoated.

This first one has a 15 mw laser pointer installed - because it was
cheap and easy. And it's fun to use as a "kitty prod" to herd cats.


The basic shell with the laser retainer hardware installed.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-02.jpg


Laser goes in right about here...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-04.jpg

The metal-working part...

It took a few iterations to get the trigger shape right, but I'm happy
with the results. I haven't measured the pull, but it's not heavy.

The trigger was bandsawed from 1/4" aluminum plate and smoothed nicely.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-06.jpg

The other part - call it the "loop"(?) - was blacksmithed from .063
steel strap by bending it around the correctly sized deep well socket
and pounding it into submission with a hammer.


The business end.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-07.jpg


The pencil laser pointer is held in place with a sort piece of brass
tube bonded in the front end, and a larger diameter piece in the aft
end. The pencil fits over (ie outside) the front one and inside the
aft one. Then a small plastic cap (from a sting-ez insect-sting
stick - hey, it fit perfectly!!) holds the laser firmly in place.

Up and running:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-08.jpg


The second one (in the works now) will open up in the middle to allow
for a 450 mw laser to be installed.

Same shape and style, but a seriously more dangerous weapon.


Fiberglass is fun stuff.
All it takes is some imagination.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Maki...erglass-parts/
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Default Ronnie Ray-gun, was 1977 22' Catalina Capri Sailboat - $700 (Marina Del Rey)

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 15:56:52 -0500, Richard
wrote:

But that's boats.

This project was a lot more fun - and less sweat.
And there was even a little metal-working involved here!

This all came about because I wanted a ray gun.
A real honest to gosh ray gun!
I guess the Buck Rogers weapons were okay - for their day.
But the Bugs Bunny / Marvin the Martian type was the one.
And it really really works! (echoes of Ron Propeil!?!)

The basic design. Kinda spiffy, huh?
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-01.jpg


The shell is hand laid fiberglass over a foam core using 8 ounce woven
cloth and west 105 epoxy. Both were selected after a detailed study
of what was in the scrap box. Most of the glass was laid on in small
patches because of the curvature, but every lay-up was closed out with a
full sized wrap to help keep loose strings under control and give a
smoother surface. In all three separate lay-ups were done to get the
final shell. Using West 105 with 205 (fast) hardener the resin kicks
and can be handled in half an hour. So it didn't take long to make the
shell.

The core was dissolved out with a little lacquer thinner leaving a the
body hollow, but the insides sharp as 40 grit sandpaper.

The shell was then filed and sanded inside and out to a smooth surface
and finally gelcoated.

This first one has a 15 mw laser pointer installed - because it was
cheap and easy. And it's fun to use as a "kitty prod" to herd cats.


The basic shell with the laser retainer hardware installed.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-02.jpg


Laser goes in right about here...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-04.jpg

The metal-working part...

It took a few iterations to get the trigger shape right, but I'm happy
with the results. I haven't measured the pull, but it's not heavy.

The trigger was bandsawed from 1/4" aluminum plate and smoothed nicely.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-06.jpg

The other part - call it the "loop"(?) - was blacksmithed from .063
steel strap by bending it around the correctly sized deep well socket
and pounding it into submission with a hammer.


The business end.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-07.jpg


The pencil laser pointer is held in place with a sort piece of brass
tube bonded in the front end, and a larger diameter piece in the aft
end. The pencil fits over (ie outside) the front one and inside the
aft one. Then a small plastic cap (from a sting-ez insect-sting
stick - hey, it fit perfectly!!) holds the laser firmly in place.

Up and running:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-.../Raygun-08.jpg


The second one (in the works now) will open up in the middle to allow
for a 450 mw laser to be installed.

Same shape and style, but a seriously more dangerous weapon.


Fiberglass is fun stuff.
All it takes is some imagination.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Maki...erglass-parts/


Very cool, Richard! You should name it "Ronnie." g

--
Ed Huntress
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