As I mentioned earlier, I purchased some old railroad rails on a
private property.

The rails are mounted on very old wooden ties. Due to age, in some
areas, the ties sunk somewhat, such as ties are not visible and the
rails are in the ground up to the web. The top is accessible, but the
web is mostly in the rocky ground. (rocks are from the railroad
construction).

I need to get them out. I have 110v in the area and designed a
hydraulic contraption, made with a 110v hydraulic unit, a cylinder and
I-beams, that can apply an upwards force of up to 30 tons and with
about 10 inches of travel. I have most parts for this.

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?

Thanks

i

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:03:34 -0500, Ignoramus26736
wrote:

As I mentioned earlier, I purchased some old railroad rails on a
private property.

The rails are mounted on very old wooden ties. Due to age, in some
areas, the ties sunk somewhat, such as ties are not visible and the
rails are in the ground up to the web. The top is accessible, but the
web is mostly in the rocky ground. (rocks are from the railroad
construction).

I need to get them out. I have 110v in the area and designed a
hydraulic contraption, made with a 110v hydraulic unit, a cylinder and
I-beams, that can apply an upwards force of up to 30 tons and with
about 10 inches of travel. I have most parts for this.

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?

Thanks

I pull 25 year old apple trees out by using hydraulic cylinders to
wind a chain up around a drum. The amount of force needed varies
HUGELY with soil conditions, moisture and time of year ( 1/3 force to
pull right after ground thaws)

So the anwser is, "It depends"

Karl

i

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:03:34 -0500, Ignoramus26736
wrote:

As I mentioned earlier, I purchased some old railroad rails on a
private property.

The rails are mounted on very old wooden ties. Due to age, in some
areas, the ties sunk somewhat, such as ties are not visible and the
rails are in the ground up to the web. The top is accessible, but the
web is mostly in the rocky ground. (rocks are from the railroad
construction).

I need to get them out. I have 110v in the area and designed a
hydraulic contraption, made with a 110v hydraulic unit, a cylinder and
I-beams, that can apply an upwards force of up to 30 tons and with
about 10 inches of travel. I have most parts for this.

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?

Thanks

I pull 25 year old apple trees out by using hydraulic cylinders to
wind a chain up around a drum. The amount of force needed varies
HUGELY with soil conditions, moisture and time of year ( 1/3 force to
pull right after ground thaws)

So the anwser is, "It depends"

Karl

Anyone who has a rough time surmising that 2x 30 feet or so of railroad
track and 15 or so wet ties is not going to weigh anything even near to 30
tons is a blithering idiot.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:26:25 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:
snip
I pull 25 year old apple trees out by using hydraulic cylinders to
wind a chain up around a drum. The amount of force needed varies
HUGELY with soil conditions, moisture and time of year ( 1/3 force to
pull right after ground thaws)

So the anwser is, "It depends"

Karl

Anyone who has a rough time surmising that 2x 30 feet or so of railroad
track and 15 or so wet ties is not going to weigh anything even near to 30
tons is a blithering idiot.
==================
I don't think the problem is lifting it once it is loose,
but rather getting it loose. The rails/crossties are
constructed the way they are specifically to prevent
loosening during use, minimize frost heaving etc. Iggy may
well need to develop some sort of railroad spike puller to
free the rail, and then something to grip the rail and pull
it out of the ground where it is embedded, and possibly
rusted to the tie.
http://tinyurl.com/pelpzzh
it may be possible to rent these tools
http://tinyurl.com/qglvrtk

Good luck, and let the group know how you make out.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On 08/19/2014 9:03 PM, Ignoramus26736 wrote:
....

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?
....

My guess would be that unless the "decades" are approach 10 or more the
likelihood that the spikes will come free in large numbers is very low.

What's your lifter working against-- the ground surface or against the
tie plate you think? That is, are you thinking of trying to pull the
rail from the tie/plate or lift the whole section?

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
On 08/19/2014 9:03 PM, Ignoramus26736 wrote:
...

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold
in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate
from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to
torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?
...

My guess would be that unless the "decades" are approach 10 or more
the likelihood that the spikes will come free in large numbers is
very low.

What's your lifter working against-- the ground surface or against
the tie plate you think? That is, are you thinking of trying to
pull the rail from the tie/plate or lift the whole section?
--

http://www.icrr.net/rails.htm

-jsw

On 20/08/14 14:45, dpb wrote:
On 08/19/2014 9:03 PM, Ignoramus26736 wrote:
...

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?
...

My guess would be that unless the "decades" are approach 10 or more
the likelihood that the spikes will come free in large numbers is very
low.

What's your lifter working against-- the ground surface or against the
tie plate you think? That is, are you thinking of trying to pull the
rail from the tie/plate or lift the whole section?

--



May depend on the quality of maintenance the rails had. When my dad
worked at Boeing in Wichita a work colleague had a rail spike on his
desk and when asked where it came from was told from a local active main
line and he had just pulled it out by hand. I can remember thinking some
of the sleepers looked in a poor state in the area but didn't think
spikes would actually be loose.

David Billington wrote:

May depend on the quality of maintenance the rails had. When my dad
worked at Boeing in Wichita a work colleague had a rail spike on his
desk and when asked where it came from was told from a local active main
line and he had just pulled it out by hand. I can remember thinking some
of the sleepers looked in a poor state in the area but didn't think
spikes would actually be loose.


I saw a lot of them that loose as a kid. We would use a railroad
bridge to cross a creek, and a lot of them could be pulled by hand. The
scary part was it was a private line that was used by a steel mill 10
miles away to haul slag. The bridge had a platform half way across, so
people could get off the track if a train came around the bend while
they were near the middle.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On 08/20/2014 12:23 PM, David Billington wrote:
On 20/08/14 14:45, dpb wrote:
....

My guess would be that unless the "decades" are approach 10 or more
the likelihood that the spikes will come free in large numbers is very
low.
....

May depend on the quality of maintenance the rails had. When my dad
worked at Boeing in Wichita a work colleague had a rail spike on his
desk and when asked where it came from was told from a local active main
line and he had just pulled it out by hand. I can remember thinking some
of the sleepers looked in a poor state in the area but didn't think
spikes would actually be loose.

Perhaps -- I'm judging based on 60+ yo ties in ground in our feedlots
I've pulled to rearrange the cattle chute that still had spikes in them
from their prior life that are not loose by any stretch of the
imagination...I've no idea how old they were before they were salvaged;
they were still in good shape as it was a similar case w/ the rr of
rearranging rather than tearout of old but we built the original
lots/chutes in '58 thru '60 so they've been in the ground since then w/o
tremendous deterioration in area with high ammonia content from cattle
for that time as well, not a roadbed...then again, they haven't had rail
traffic either. How the effects compete I've no idea but I wouldn't
count on them being totally rotted out unless it's been a long, long time...

Of course, iggy'll find out when he goes and tries. If could get it
there, I'd think his big forklift would be the tool to just lift and yank...

--

dpb fired this volley in :

Of course, iggy'll find out when he goes and tries. If could get it
there, I'd think his big forklift would be the tool to just lift and
yank...

He's already said the balast is high enough that he can't even get a
tractor and bush hog on it, so how's he going to get a forklift up there?
(not even an RT forklift can handle a slope past about 35 degrees, and
still lift straight up).

Lloyd

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:46:28 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 08/20/2014 12:23 PM, David Billington wrote:
On 20/08/14 14:45, dpb wrote:
...

My guess would be that unless the "decades" are approach 10 or more
the likelihood that the spikes will come free in large numbers is very
low.
...

May depend on the quality of maintenance the rails had. When my dad
worked at Boeing in Wichita a work colleague had a rail spike on his
desk and when asked where it came from was told from a local active main
line and he had just pulled it out by hand. I can remember thinking some
of the sleepers looked in a poor state in the area but didn't think
spikes would actually be loose.

Perhaps -- I'm judging based on 60+ yo ties in ground in our feedlots
I've pulled to rearrange the cattle chute that still had spikes in them
from their prior life that are not loose by any stretch of the
imagination...I've no idea how old they were before they were salvaged;
they were still in good shape as it was a similar case w/ the rr of
rearranging rather than tearout of old but we built the original
lots/chutes in '58 thru '60 so they've been in the ground since then w/o
tremendous deterioration in area with high ammonia content from cattle
for that time as well, not a roadbed...then again, they haven't had rail
traffic either. How the effects compete I've no idea but I wouldn't
count on them being totally rotted out unless it's been a long, long time...

Of course, iggy'll find out when he goes and tries. If could get it
there, I'd think his big forklift would be the tool to just lift and yank...

Crossing crews and tie switchers use (or used) a pneumatic tool that
looks like a small jackhammer, with a hook on the end instead of a
chisel. Those spikes pop out like thumbtacks.

('Worked on a Penn Central crossing crew in 1967, when I was in
college. $9.40/hour in 1967!)

Six men would lift a section of track with three, two-man tongs.
Crossing track sections were shorter than the normal track length but
I don't remember the actual length.

Those rails were still in use, though, and they came up easily. I
don't know about lifting old track.

BTW, if you want to ruin your back, try drilling spike holes in a
creosote-soaked wooden tie. It's no problem going in, but try pulling
the drill and the bit out...

That was the job they gave the kids -- like me. g

--
Ed Huntress

On 8/20/2014 2:03 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
....

('Worked on a Penn Central crossing crew in 1967, when I was in
college. $9.40/hour in 1967!)
....

!! In college I had a union job as a construction laborer and the money
was way better than anything else available to college kids. But not
even close to $9.60, adjusted for inflation. In fact, in 1967 I had
been working as an electrical engineer for 5 years and I wasn't making
close to $9.60. A job like that makes you wonder why you're going to
college!

Bob

On 8/20/2014 6:14 AM, F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:26:25 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:
snip
I pull 25 year old apple trees out by using hydraulic cylinders to
wind a chain up around a drum. The amount of force needed varies
HUGELY with soil conditions, moisture and time of year ( 1/3 force to
pull right after ground thaws)

So the anwser is, "It depends"

Karl

Anyone who has a rough time surmising that 2x 30 feet or so of railroad
track and 15 or so wet ties is not going to weigh anything even near to 30
tons is a blithering idiot.
==================
I don't think the problem is lifting it once it is loose,
but rather getting it loose. The rails/crossties are
constructed the way they are specifically to prevent
loosening during use, minimize frost heaving etc. Iggy may
well need to develop some sort of railroad spike puller to
free the rail, and then something to grip the rail and pull
it out of the ground where it is embedded, and possibly
rusted to the tie.
http://tinyurl.com/pelpzzh
it may be possible to rent these tools
http://tinyurl.com/qglvrtk

Good luck, and let the group know how you make out.


It's called a "bird's foot tool". If Iggy was closer, I would loan him one.

Paul

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 16:21:28 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 8/20/2014 2:03 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
...

('Worked on a Penn Central crossing crew in 1967, when I was in
college. $9.40/hour in 1967!)
...

!! In college I had a union job as a construction laborer and the money
was way better than anything else available to college kids. But not
even close to $9.60, adjusted for inflation. In fact, in 1967 I had
been working as an electrical engineer for 5 years and I wasn't making
close to $9.60. A job like that makes you wonder why you're going to
college!

Bob

Well, one week of that made it very clear why I was going to college.
g

I took six months off to work and become a Michigan resident, which
reduced my tuition by 2/3. I was trying to stack up so money so I
could go back to school.

I first had a temp job at Oldsmobile, part of the summer
tooling-change crew, for $7.50. We were not union, obviously. I hoped
to get a regular production job when that was over but I didn't have
the right connections.

Then I tried to get a job at White-REO trucks. No go -- they had a
temporary slowdown when they merged wih Diamond.

A friend had a job with Penn Central making $9.40, and told me they
were advertising for a telegraph operator (!!! No kidding.) So I
applied, and found out that the ad was just for appearances, that
those jobs went to old, broken-down employees who were waiting it out
to retire. But they had a job opening on a crossing crew. I grabbed
it.

I couldn't believe how much money I was making. But I barely made it
through the first week. Most young guys lasted no more than two days.
I made it through the weekend, went to work on Monday, and then came
home and fell asleep in a chair, with my boots on.

'Woke up the next morning at 9:00; called in, and quit. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 2:03:34 AM UTC, Ignoramus26736 wrote:

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like

that?
Thanks
i

I am assuming that you are only pulling one rail at a time and that you will be pulling about 5 feet of rail free and then moving the jack. My guess is that you will only need about 8 tons at the most. So you might want to be able to substitute a smaller hydraulic cylinder that will operate faster.

This is a guess from pulling fence posts with a jack. So let us know what works.

Dan

On 8/20/2014 4:43 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
....
I couldn't believe how much money I was making. But I barely made it
through the first week. Most young guys lasted no more than two days.
I made it through the weekend, went to work on Monday, and then came
home and fell asleep in a chair, with my boots on.

'Woke up the next morning at 9:00; called in, and quit. d8-)


I guess that infamous railroad practice of "featherbedding" wasn't in
effect for crossing crews G

On 2014-08-20, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 8/20/2014 6:14 AM, F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:26:25 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:
snip
I pull 25 year old apple trees out by using hydraulic cylinders to
wind a chain up around a drum. The amount of force needed varies
HUGELY with soil conditions, moisture and time of year ( 1/3 force to
pull right after ground thaws)

So the anwser is, "It depends"

Karl

Anyone who has a rough time surmising that 2x 30 feet or so of railroad
track and 15 or so wet ties is not going to weigh anything even near to 30
tons is a blithering idiot.
==================
I don't think the problem is lifting it once it is loose,
but rather getting it loose. The rails/crossties are
constructed the way they are specifically to prevent
loosening during use, minimize frost heaving etc. Iggy may
well need to develop some sort of railroad spike puller to
free the rail, and then something to grip the rail and pull
it out of the ground where it is embedded, and possibly
rusted to the tie.
http://tinyurl.com/pelpzzh
it may be possible to rent these tools
http://tinyurl.com/qglvrtk

Good luck, and let the group know how you make out.


It's called a "bird's foot tool". If Iggy was closer, I would loan him one.

Paul

I want to pull rails up from the ground. Otherwise I would have to dig
rocky ground just to get to the nails. It would be expensive.

I talked to a couple of people. My neighbors at the warehouse are
railroad people, and I asked one scrap yard who knows railway
scrapping.

They both told me that it should be easy to pull out and I should
first just try the bobcat. I have a Bobcat S300.

If that does not work, I will try a hydraulic puller. We built one
today for this job, maybe it will come up again. I will see how it
works out and maybe will post a video.

i

On 2014-08-20, dpb wrote:
On 08/19/2014 9:03 PM, Ignoramus26736 wrote:
...

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?
...

My guess would be that unless the "decades" are approach 10 or more the
likelihood that the spikes will come free in large numbers is very low.

I do not know that but a couple of people told me so, based on their
experience. Most of the ties are covered with soil and vegetation.

What's your lifter working against-- the ground surface or against the
tie plate you think? That is, are you thinking of trying to pull the
rail from the tie/plate or lift the whole section?

Against the ground, 2 feet away from the rail on both sides.

i

On 2014-08-20, David Billington wrote:
On 20/08/14 14:45, dpb wrote:
On 08/19/2014 9:03 PM, Ignoramus26736 wrote:
...

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?
...

My guess would be that unless the "decades" are approach 10 or more
the likelihood that the spikes will come free in large numbers is very
low.

What's your lifter working against-- the ground surface or against the
tie plate you think? That is, are you thinking of trying to pull the
rail from the tie/plate or lift the whole section?

--



May depend on the quality of maintenance the rails had. When my dad
worked at Boeing in Wichita a work colleague had a rail spike on his
desk and when asked where it came from was told from a local active main
line and he had just pulled it out by hand. I can remember thinking some
of the sleepers looked in a poor state in the area but didn't think
spikes would actually be loose.

I walked to a disused section of rail near my warehouse -- which I do
not own -- and tried pulling nails. One pulled right away by hand and
another one, did not.

i

On 2014-08-20, dpb wrote:
On 08/20/2014 12:23 PM, David Billington wrote:
On 20/08/14 14:45, dpb wrote:
...

My guess would be that unless the "decades" are approach 10 or more
the likelihood that the spikes will come free in large numbers is very
low.
...

May depend on the quality of maintenance the rails had. When my dad
worked at Boeing in Wichita a work colleague had a rail spike on his
desk and when asked where it came from was told from a local active main
line and he had just pulled it out by hand. I can remember thinking some
of the sleepers looked in a poor state in the area but didn't think
spikes would actually be loose.

Perhaps -- I'm judging based on 60+ yo ties in ground in our feedlots
I've pulled to rearrange the cattle chute that still had spikes in them
from their prior life that are not loose by any stretch of the
imagination...I've no idea how old they were before they were salvaged;
they were still in good shape as it was a similar case w/ the rr of
rearranging rather than tearout of old but we built the original
lots/chutes in '58 thru '60 so they've been in the ground since then w/o
tremendous deterioration in area with high ammonia content from cattle
for that time as well, not a roadbed...then again, they haven't had rail
traffic either. How the effects compete I've no idea but I wouldn't
count on them being totally rotted out unless it's been a long, long time...

Of course, iggy'll find out when he goes and tries. If could get it
there, I'd think his big forklift would be the tool to just lift and yank...

--

The forklift would get stuck. I will bring my bobcat s300, and the
hydraulic machine we built.

i

On 8/20/2014 6:21 PM, Ignoramus14649 wrote:
....
If that does not work, I will try a hydraulic puller. We built one
today for this job, maybe it will come up again. I will see how it
works out and maybe will post a video.

Yes, yes ... a video would be most interesting. We don't often get to
see such things.

Bob

I want to pull rails up from the ground. Otherwise I would have to dig
rocky ground just to get to the nails. It would be expensive.

I talked to a couple of people. My neighbors at the warehouse are
railroad people, and I asked one scrap yard who knows railway
scrapping.

They both told me that it should be easy to pull out and I should
first just try the bobcat. I have a Bobcat S300.

If that does not work, I will try a hydraulic puller. We built one
today for this job, maybe it will come up again. I will see how it
works out and maybe will post a video.

i

I took time off in college to earn money to continue college. Worked at
a local paper/pulp mill. They had a spur rail road running from the
mill, across town to the main rr line. I worked a few weeks on the
maintenance crew. Heavy, but interesting work.

Their rails were the standard 90 pounds per yard rail. Probably what you
have. You will most likely have to cut them at least in half to put on
your truck. Be careful with fire!

Good luck and would love to see the video!

Paul

On 2014-08-20, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 2:03:34 AM UTC, Ignoramus26736 wrote:

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like

that?
Thanks
i

I am assuming that you are only pulling one rail at a time and that you will be pulling about 5 feet of rail free and then moving the jack. My guess is that you will only need about 8 tons at the most. So you might want to be able to substitute a smaller hydraulic cylinder that will operate faster.

This is a guess from pulling fence posts with a jack. So let us know what works.


I will see. I will hook up the cylinder to the bobcat. I realized
there is no reason to use a 110v hydraulic unit here when I will have
the bobcat. The bobcat has a huge pump and speed is clearly not an
issue, neither is the hydraulic system pressure.

My plan is to work backwards, pull a bit of rail, have it torched off,
back up, pull some more, maybe in 10 foot sections. The bobcat will
both move, as well as power, the hydraulic contraption.

This is how it looks.


beam
.=================
!! ; O
!! ;chain |
!!post ; [ ] hydraulic
!! ; [ ] cylinder
---- {}rail ------

The cylinder pushes the beam up, which cantilevers on top of the left
post, a chain is attached to the middle of the beam, to pull up the
rail.

i

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 18:14:12 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 8/20/2014 4:43 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
...
I couldn't believe how much money I was making. But I barely made it
through the first week. Most young guys lasted no more than two days.
I made it through the weekend, went to work on Monday, and then came
home and fell asleep in a chair, with my boots on.

'Woke up the next morning at 9:00; called in, and quit. d8-)


I guess that infamous railroad practice of "featherbedding" wasn't in
effect for crossing crews G

This one sure wasn't. The lifers were some tough, wiry dudes.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2014-08-20, Paul Drahn wrote:


I want to pull rails up from the ground. Otherwise I would have to dig
rocky ground just to get to the nails. It would be expensive.

I talked to a couple of people. My neighbors at the warehouse are
railroad people, and I asked one scrap yard who knows railway
scrapping.

They both told me that it should be easy to pull out and I should
first just try the bobcat. I have a Bobcat S300.

If that does not work, I will try a hydraulic puller. We built one
today for this job, maybe it will come up again. I will see how it
works out and maybe will post a video.

i

I took time off in college to earn money to continue college. Worked at
a local paper/pulp mill. They had a spur rail road running from the
mill, across town to the main rr line. I worked a few weeks on the
maintenance crew. Heavy, but interesting work.

Their rails were the standard 90 pounds per yard rail. Probably what you
have. You will most likely have to cut them at least in half to put on
your truck. Be careful with fire!

I may have to cut them even more to take them down safely. With a
torch this is not difficult.

Good luck and would love to see the video!

I am all psyched up about it.

i

On 2014-08-20, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 8/20/2014 6:21 PM, Ignoramus14649 wrote:
...
If that does not work, I will try a hydraulic puller. We built one
today for this job, maybe it will come up again. I will see how it
works out and maybe will post a video.

Yes, yes ... a video would be most interesting. We don't often get to
see such things.

I will make sure to post one...

i

The cylinder pushes the beam up, which cantilevers on top of the left
post, a chain is attached to the middle of the beam, to pull up the
rail.


My concept is similar - take the bucket off a loader, build a drum
around the bucket rotation axis and attach a chain. Attach other end
of chain to lift item and tighten slack with main lift arm. Then roll
the bucket for the high force lift. I have a 1 ton counter weight on
the back of a large tractor. this system will lift the rear wheels off
the ground if it don't give. Can easily jerk 250 trees a day this way.

In the case of trees, i find a bump under moderate lift force will
break things loose for the main lift. Bet its the same for ties.

karl

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:20:50 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:03:34 -0500, Ignoramus26736
wrote:

As I mentioned earlier, I purchased some old railroad rails on a
private property.

The rails are mounted on very old wooden ties. Due to age, in some
areas, the ties sunk somewhat, such as ties are not visible and the
rails are in the ground up to the web. The top is accessible, but the
web is mostly in the rocky ground. (rocks are from the railroad
construction).

I need to get them out. I have 110v in the area and designed a
hydraulic contraption, made with a 110v hydraulic unit, a cylinder and
I-beams, that can apply an upwards force of up to 30 tons and with
about 10 inches of travel. I have most parts for this.

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?

Thanks

I pull 25 year old apple trees out by using hydraulic cylinders to
wind a chain up around a drum. The amount of force needed varies
HUGELY with soil conditions, moisture and time of year ( 1/3 force to
pull right after ground thaws)

So the anwser is, "It depends"

Railroad rail is simply nailed in with big spikes, either with or
without stabilizer plates. I think his device would likely do the
trick. Having steel plate under the device legs on each side of the
rail would help, maybe 8"x16"x1" plate to hold it even if the ties are
rotten or the ground soft/gravel gone.

Karl, as a fruit farmer, can you tell me what time pears ripen? My
neighbor just gave me permission to harvest her tree (tiny ancient
thing with 2 or 3 varieties on it) but I'm not sure when to pick.
They're all hard as rocks right now, but I only know how to pick
candidates from the grocery store. I gave up googlinit when the first
hundred and fifty were all either how to plant, grow, splice, or other
such unwanted info, but nothing saying "when". Do you know,
perchance?

--
If I have learnt anything, it is that life forms no logical patterns.
It is haphazard and full of beauties which I try to catch as they
fly by, for who knows whether any of them will ever return?
-- Margot Fonteyn

On 2014-08-21, Karl Townsend wrote:

The cylinder pushes the beam up, which cantilevers on top of the left
post, a chain is attached to the middle of the beam, to pull up the
rail.


My concept is similar - take the bucket off a loader, build a drum
around the bucket rotation axis and attach a chain. Attach other end
of chain to lift item and tighten slack with main lift arm. Then roll
the bucket for the high force lift. I have a 1 ton counter weight on
the back of a large tractor. this system will lift the rear wheels off
the ground if it don't give. Can easily jerk 250 trees a day this way.

In the case of trees, i find a bump under moderate lift force will
break things loose for the main lift. Bet its the same for ties.


This is quite clever. Have a leg down from the end of your boom, then
you can really apply enormous force without tipping.

i

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:16:13 -0500, Ignoramus14649
wrote:

On 2014-08-20, Paul Drahn wrote:


I want to pull rails up from the ground. Otherwise I would have to dig
rocky ground just to get to the nails. It would be expensive.

I talked to a couple of people. My neighbors at the warehouse are
railroad people, and I asked one scrap yard who knows railway
scrapping.

They both told me that it should be easy to pull out and I should
first just try the bobcat. I have a Bobcat S300.

If that does not work, I will try a hydraulic puller. We built one
today for this job, maybe it will come up again. I will see how it
works out and maybe will post a video.

i

I took time off in college to earn money to continue college. Worked at
a local paper/pulp mill. They had a spur rail road running from the
mill, across town to the main rr line. I worked a few weeks on the
maintenance crew. Heavy, but interesting work.

Their rails were the standard 90 pounds per yard rail. Probably what you
have. You will most likely have to cut them at least in half to put on
your truck. Be careful with fire!

I may have to cut them even more to take them down safely. With a
torch this is not difficult.

Good luck and would love to see the video!

I am all psyched up about it.

"Iggy, the Reverse Railroad Man!"

--
If I have learnt anything, it is that life forms no logical patterns.
It is haphazard and full of beauties which I try to catch as they
fly by, for who knows whether any of them will ever return?
-- Margot Fonteyn

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 17:50:31 -0500, Ignoramus14649
wrote:

On 2014-08-20, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 2:03:34 AM UTC, Ignoramus26736 wrote:

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like

that?
Thanks
i

I am assuming that you are only pulling one rail at a time and that you will be pulling about 5 feet of rail free and then moving the jack. My guess is that you will only need about 8 tons at the most. So you might want to be able to substitute a smaller hydraulic cylinder that will operate faster.

This is a guess from pulling fence posts with a jack. So let us know what works.


I will see. I will hook up the cylinder to the bobcat. I realized
there is no reason to use a 110v hydraulic unit here when I will have
the bobcat. The bobcat has a huge pump and speed is clearly not an
issue, neither is the hydraulic system pressure.

My plan is to work backwards, pull a bit of rail, have it torched off,
back up, pull some more, maybe in 10 foot sections. The bobcat will
both move, as well as power, the hydraulic contraption.

This is how it looks.


beam
.=================
!! ; O
!! ;chain |
!!post ; [ ] hydraulic
!! ; [ ] cylinder
---- {}rail ------

The cylinder pushes the beam up, which cantilevers on top of the left
post, a chain is attached to the middle of the beam, to pull up the
rail.

NAH!

===================
; || ;
; 00 ;
; [] ;
; [] ;
; |====| ;
; | | ;
; | | ;
; | | ;
////// | r |////// frame clamps
| r |
| r |

Cylinder over rail, straddling it. Tongs lift on both sides of
cylinder with 1:1 lift, not 1:12 as you show it. Much quicker.
Heavy-ass duty tongs, of course. Maybe body shop frame pulling
clamps large enough to straddle the rail? Stanzani 140?
http://www.cegroup.com/8,Stanzani__1..._4 5_mm_.html
but made from scratch. You may already have something like it.

-

Gunner, do you have any of the smaller sheetmetal clamps like this?
Pop some in a box for me to pick up, por favor.
http://www.cegroup.com/138,Mo_Clamp_...Pull_Ring.html



--
If I have learnt anything, it is that life forms no logical patterns.
It is haphazard and full of beauties which I try to catch as they
fly by, for who knows whether any of them will ever return?
-- Margot Fonteyn

Ignoramus14649 fired this volley in
:

This is quite clever. Have a leg down from the end of your boom, then
you can really apply enormous force without tipping.


Yeah, but guys have been 'popping' trees for decades with 26HP tractors
weighing 1800lb... you don't need a five ton tractor with a one-ton
counterweight!

I've pulled dozens of adult orange trees from clay-bearing soil with a
1948 Ford 8N tractor. Easy-peezy, if you know how (with NO damage to the
tractor or the driver).

Lloyd

Ignoramus26736 on Tue, 19 Aug
2014 21:03:34 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
As I mentioned earlier, I purchased some old railroad rails on a
private property.

The rails are mounted on very old wooden ties. Due to age, in some
areas, the ties sunk somewhat, such as ties are not visible and the
rails are in the ground up to the web. The top is accessible, but the
web is mostly in the rocky ground. (rocks are from the railroad
construction).

I need to get them out. I have 110v in the area and designed a
hydraulic contraption, made with a 110v hydraulic unit, a cylinder and
I-beams, that can apply an upwards force of up to 30 tons and with
about 10 inches of travel. I have most parts for this.

My expectation is that the ties are very rotten due to decades of
neglect and being under the soil, so that the spikes no longer hold in
the ties. I hope that as I pull the rails up, they will separate from
the ties and come out of the ground, at which point I can torch cut
them.

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like
that? Assuming that the ties are rotten? Just pull up enough to torch
cut them? Or will the ground kind of hold them in? Any experience?

Probably easier to pull the spikes out of the plates, then cut the
rails in place. Chop saw would be my preference. (Actually, my
preference would be to say "How soon can you have those rails out of
there?" and let them do the work.)
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Larry Jaques wrote:

Karl, as a fruit farmer, can you tell me what time pears ripen? My
neighbor just gave me permission to harvest her tree (tiny ancient
thing with 2 or 3 varieties on it) but I'm not sure when to pick.
They're all hard as rocks right now, but I only know how to pick
candidates from the grocery store. I gave up googlinit when the first
hundred and fifty were all either how to plant, grow, splice, or other
such unwanted info, but nothing saying "when". Do you know,
perchance?

I ain't Karl , nor due I Pley him on Teevee ... but . I understand that
pears actually ripen after they are picked . Might be wrong , I often am .
Just ask my wife .

--
Snag

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

Ignoramus14649 fired this volley in
:

This is quite clever. Have a leg down from the end of your boom, then
you can really apply enormous force without tipping.


Yeah, but guys have been 'popping' trees for decades with 26HP tractors
weighing 1800lb... you don't need a five ton tractor with a one-ton
counterweight!

I've pulled dozens of adult orange trees from clay-bearing soil with a
1948 Ford 8N tractor. Easy-peezy, if you know how (with NO damage to the
tractor or the driver).


One of my uncles cleared 20 acres of frozen out orange trees with an
old jeep, and some heavy chain. That was in Lake county, and over 30
years ago.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On 2014-08-21, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 17:50:31 -0500, Ignoramus14649
wrote:

On 2014-08-20, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 2:03:34 AM UTC, Ignoramus26736 wrote:

My question is, will 30 tons be enough force to pull rails up like

that?
Thanks
i

I am assuming that you are only pulling one rail at a time and that you will be pulling about 5 feet of rail free and then moving the jack. My guess is that you will only need about 8 tons at the most. So you might want to be able to substitute a smaller hydraulic cylinder that will operate faster.

This is a guess from pulling fence posts with a jack. So let us know what works.


I will see. I will hook up the cylinder to the bobcat. I realized
there is no reason to use a 110v hydraulic unit here when I will have
the bobcat. The bobcat has a huge pump and speed is clearly not an
issue, neither is the hydraulic system pressure.

My plan is to work backwards, pull a bit of rail, have it torched off,
back up, pull some more, maybe in 10 foot sections. The bobcat will
both move, as well as power, the hydraulic contraption.

This is how it looks.


beam
.=================
!! ; O
!! ;chain |
!!post ; [ ] hydraulic
!! ; [ ] cylinder
---- {}rail ------

The cylinder pushes the beam up, which cantilevers on top of the left
post, a chain is attached to the middle of the beam, to pull up the
rail.

NAH!

===================
; || ;
; 00 ;
; [] ;
; [] ;
; |====| ;
; | | ;
; | | ;
; | | ;
////// | r |////// frame clamps
| r |
| r |

Cylinder over rail, straddling it. Tongs lift on both sides of
cylinder with 1:1 lift, not 1:12 as you show it. Much quicker.
Heavy-ass duty tongs, of course. Maybe body shop frame pulling
clamps large enough to straddle the rail? Stanzani 140?
http://www.cegroup.com/8,Stanzani__1..._4 5_mm_.html
but made from scratch. You may already have something like it.

this is going to fall down right away

On 2014-08-21, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus14649 fired this volley in
:

This is quite clever. Have a leg down from the end of your boom, then
you can really apply enormous force without tipping.


Yeah, but guys have been 'popping' trees for decades with 26HP tractors
weighing 1800lb... you don't need a five ton tractor with a one-ton
counterweight!

I've pulled dozens of adult orange trees from clay-bearing soil with a
1948 Ford 8N tractor. Easy-peezy, if you know how (with NO damage to the
tractor or the driver).


I have never seen an orange tree, are they big or small?

i

Ignoramus10365 fired this volley in
:

have never seen an orange tree, are they big or small?

i

The old ones that I cleared had trunks about 10" to 12" diameter, and a
root ball about 15' across. They're substantial fruit trees. Not as big
as nut trees.

Hint... the trick requires a length of railroad rail and some heavy
binder chains. OH! You have all that! G

Lloyd

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:42:51 PM UTC-4, Michael Terrell wrote:
David Billington wrote:

May depend on the quality of maintenance the rails had. When my dad

worked at Boeing in Wichita a work colleague had a rail spike on his

desk and when asked where it came from was told from a local active main

line and he had just pulled it out by hand. I can remember thinking some

of the sleepers looked in a poor state in the area but didn't think

spikes would actually be loose.





I saw a lot of them that loose as a kid. We would use a railroad

bridge to cross a creek, and a lot of them could be pulled by hand. The

scary part was it was a private line that was used by a steel mill 10


miles away to haul slag. The bridge had a platform half way across, so

people could get off the track if a train came around the bend while

they were near the middle.

Yeah well, if I were iggy, I'd just call a crane and leave pulling everything out to them. Its probably safer too, because all this speculation and do-it-yourself crap is for the birds.

wrote:

Michael Terrell wrote:

I saw a lot of them that loose as a kid. We would use a railroad
bridge to cross a creek, and a lot of them could be pulled by hand. The
scary part was it was a private line that was used by a steel mill 10
miles away to haul slag. The bridge had a platform half way across, so
people could get off the track if a train came around the bend while
they were near the middle.

Yeah well, if I were iggy, I'd just call a crane and leave pulling everything out to them. Its probably safer too, because all this speculation and do-it-yourself crap is for the birds.


I'm sure you would, since you never do anything but complain.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.