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Default grounding lightbulbs, fuses and other parts

On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:10:30 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Gunner Asch fired this volley in

:

True. Which is why one puts wiring protectors on every pass through


point on each stud. One on each side of the stud.






Don't waste your breath. These are the same idiots that think you cannot

remove a plastic box from the wall without ripping out the drywall.



I wonder if they've ever tried to remove a steel box from behind the

finish!



I wonder if they've ever explored an "old work box" for repairs.



These are the same idiots that think 'wattage' corresponds to 'shock

potential'.


Only you said the word "shock"

Obviously, they're dealing with the "mystical electrik fluids" of pre-

Faraday times.



I like metal boxes, too, for their durability and fastener resistance,

but there's not a whit of fact in any of the bull**** they've been

spouting.



Lloyd


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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:00:08 AM UTC-4, jon_banquer wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:42:55 AM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 18:10:30 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"




lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:








Gunner Asch fired this volley in




:












True. Which is why one puts wiring protectors on every pass through




point on each stud. One on each side of the stud.












Don't waste your breath. These are the same idiots that think you cannot




remove a plastic box from the wall without ripping out the drywall.








I wonder if they've ever tried to remove a steel box from behind the




finish!








I wonder if they've ever explored an "old work box" for repairs.








These are the same idiots that think 'wattage' corresponds to 'shock




potential'.








Obviously, they're dealing with the "mystical electrik fluids" of pre-




Faraday times.








I like metal boxes, too, for their durability and fastener resistance,




but there's not a whit of fact in any of the bull**** they've been




spouting.








Lloyd












Well stated.








Gunner








--


"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.


We're in a great place, just at a bad time."


No it's not well stated.

It's typical Loud bull**** and Mark Wieber ass kissing.


jon, I still can't believe anyone would AVOID using metallic cable (MC) and instead use non-metallic cable (Romex)
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On 7/22/2014 2:06 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:28:45 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/20/2014 11:33 AM,
wrote:

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:50:58 PM UTC-4, John G wrote:


explained on 20/07/2014 :

Where ever it is measured on the property MINUS VAR. Because that's resistance of volt amps.




Anything below 5 millivolts is not harmful to persons/property (including VARs). Its in any NEC.




In other words, the more metal there is between that 5mv+ and the main panel's box,




itself the more potential to a path back (which means less potential for

a live person to get in the way)

Most of what I snipped was wrong or not understandable.



Higher voltages are more apt to deliver more current through your body,

PERIOD.



One thing I think I see you saying is, you are placing your body as the

return line for the 240V device. So if we consider a TV that uses

120 Watts, At 240 volts the TV would draw 500 milliamps, at 120 volts

it would draw 1000 milliamps. If you put your body in the return line

you might think you are safer at 240 Volts.

The resistance of the human body in contact with a electrified metal

part can very greatly from 500 ohms immersed in water to 1 million ohms

on dry skin. So I'll pick 15,000 ohms for each body/conductor

connection, for a total of 30,000 ohms.

A 120 Watt, 240 volt TV is equivalent to a 480 ohm resistance.

A 120 Watt, 120 Volt TV is equivalent to a 120 ohm resistance.



If we add the TV's resistance to the body/conductor connection we get,

30,480 ohms for the 240 Volt circuit, and 30,120 ohms for the 120 Volt

circuit.

If you do the math, the 240 Volt circuit has a current flow through

your body of 7.8 milliamps.

The 120 volt circuit has a current flow through your body of

3.98 milliamps.

Using your 5mv number 240 Volts is deadly, 120 Volts is not.



If I did not understand correctly that your thinking is, "you are

placing your body as the return line" then all of the above is still

relevant but may not have given you the info you need for understanding.

If you don't understand how I did the math to get the numbers please

ask and I will type it out.


The whole problem is that no one here is mentioning the NEC. Don't use your own figuring. Instead, use examples from the NEC. Discard your "figuring".

Here is something from an NEC study guide which is what I meant.

"Nonmetallic boxes are not permitted to be used with a metallic wiring method because there is no way to maintain the electrical continuity of the effective ground"

--
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20050510.php (2nd question - answer)


Here is what you said that many of us disagree with. "Overhead
commercial lighting voltage is 277 so its less current and less
dangerous" (than a lower voltage, higher current) I added the line in
parentheses because I think that is what you meant. Is that correct?

What does your link have to do with higher voltages being safer?
Mikek
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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:22:39 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/22/2014 2:06 PM, wrote:

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:28:45 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:


On 7/20/2014 11:33 AM,
wrote:



On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:50:58 PM UTC-4, John G wrote:




explained on 20/07/2014 :



Where ever it is measured on the property MINUS VAR. Because that's resistance of volt amps.








Anything below 5 millivolts is not harmful to persons/property (including VARs). Its in any NEC.








In other words, the more metal there is between that 5mv+ and the main panel's box,








itself the more potential to a path back (which means less potential for




a live person to get in the way)




Most of what I snipped was wrong or not understandable.








Higher voltages are more apt to deliver more current through your body,




PERIOD.








One thing I think I see you saying is, you are placing your body as the




return line for the 240V device. So if we consider a TV that uses




120 Watts, At 240 volts the TV would draw 500 milliamps, at 120 volts




it would draw 1000 milliamps. If you put your body in the return line




you might think you are safer at 240 Volts.




The resistance of the human body in contact with a electrified metal




part can very greatly from 500 ohms immersed in water to 1 million ohms




on dry skin. So I'll pick 15,000 ohms for each body/conductor




connection, for a total of 30,000 ohms.




A 120 Watt, 240 volt TV is equivalent to a 480 ohm resistance.




A 120 Watt, 120 Volt TV is equivalent to a 120 ohm resistance.








If we add the TV's resistance to the body/conductor connection we get,




30,480 ohms for the 240 Volt circuit, and 30,120 ohms for the 120 Volt




circuit.




If you do the math, the 240 Volt circuit has a current flow through




your body of 7.8 milliamps.




The 120 volt circuit has a current flow through your body of




3.98 milliamps.




Using your 5mv number 240 Volts is deadly, 120 Volts is not.








If I did not understand correctly that your thinking is, "you are




placing your body as the return line" then all of the above is still




relevant but may not have given you the info you need for understanding.




If you don't understand how I did the math to get the numbers please




ask and I will type it out.




The whole problem is that no one here is mentioning the NEC. Don't use your own figuring. Instead, use examples from the NEC. Discard your "figuring".




Here is something from an NEC study guide which is what I meant.




"Nonmetallic boxes are not permitted to be used with a metallic wiring method because there is no way to maintain the electrical continuity of the effective ground"




--
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20050510.php (2nd question - answer)





Here is what you said that many of us disagree with. "Overhead

commercial lighting voltage is 277 so its less current and less

dangerous" (than a lower voltage, higher current) I added the line in

parentheses because I think that is what you meant. Is that correct?



What does your link have to do with higher voltages being safer?

Mikek


To get higher voltage, you have to reduce current (if all from the same service).
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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:43:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:22:39 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

On 7/22/2014 2:06 PM, wrote:




On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:28:45 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:




On 7/20/2014 11:33 AM,
wrote:







On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:50:58 PM UTC-4, John G wrote:








explained on 20/07/2014 :







Where ever it is measured on the property MINUS VAR. Because that's resistance of volt amps.
















Anything below 5 millivolts is not harmful to persons/property (including VARs). Its in any NEC.
















In other words, the more metal there is between that 5mv+ and the main panel's box,
















itself the more potential to a path back (which means less potential for








a live person to get in the way)








Most of what I snipped was wrong or not understandable.
















Higher voltages are more apt to deliver more current through your body,








PERIOD.
















One thing I think I see you saying is, you are placing your body as the








return line for the 240V device. So if we consider a TV that uses








120 Watts, At 240 volts the TV would draw 500 milliamps, at 120 volts








it would draw 1000 milliamps. If you put your body in the return line








you might think you are safer at 240 Volts.








The resistance of the human body in contact with a electrified metal








part can very greatly from 500 ohms immersed in water to 1 million ohms








on dry skin. So I'll pick 15,000 ohms for each body/conductor








connection, for a total of 30,000 ohms.








A 120 Watt, 240 volt TV is equivalent to a 480 ohm resistance.








A 120 Watt, 120 Volt TV is equivalent to a 120 ohm resistance.
















If we add the TV's resistance to the body/conductor connection we get,








30,480 ohms for the 240 Volt circuit, and 30,120 ohms for the 120 Volt








circuit.








If you do the math, the 240 Volt circuit has a current flow through








your body of 7.8 milliamps.








The 120 volt circuit has a current flow through your body of








3.98 milliamps.








Using your 5mv number 240 Volts is deadly, 120 Volts is not.
















If I did not understand correctly that your thinking is, "you are








placing your body as the return line" then all of the above is still








relevant but may not have given you the info you need for understanding.








If you don't understand how I did the math to get the numbers please








ask and I will type it out.








The whole problem is that no one here is mentioning the NEC. Don't use your own figuring. Instead, use examples from the NEC. Discard your "figuring".








Here is something from an NEC study guide which is what I meant.








"Nonmetallic boxes are not permitted to be used with a metallic wiring method because there is no way to maintain the electrical continuity of the effective ground"








--
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20050510.php (2nd question - answer)











Here is what you said that many of us disagree with. "Overhead




commercial lighting voltage is 277 so its less current and less




dangerous" (than a lower voltage, higher current) I added the line in




parentheses because I think that is what you meant. Is that correct?








What does your link have to do with higher voltages being safer?




Mikek




To get higher voltage, you have to reduce current (if all from the same service).


High current and low voltage is the danger. (Much moreso than higher voltage and lower current)


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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:15:28 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:00:08 AM UTC-4, jon_banquer wrote:

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:42:55 AM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:




On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 18:10:30 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"








lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
















Gunner Asch fired this volley in








:
























True. Which is why one puts wiring protectors on every pass through








point on each stud. One on each side of the stud.
























Don't waste your breath. These are the same idiots that think you cannot








remove a plastic box from the wall without ripping out the drywall.
















I wonder if they've ever tried to remove a steel box from behind the








finish!
















I wonder if they've ever explored an "old work box" for repairs.
















These are the same idiots that think 'wattage' corresponds to 'shock








potential'.
















Obviously, they're dealing with the "mystical electrik fluids" of pre-








Faraday times.
















I like metal boxes, too, for their durability and fastener resistance,








but there's not a whit of fact in any of the bull**** they've been








spouting.
















Lloyd
























Well stated.
















Gunner
















--




"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.




We're in a great place, just at a bad time."




No it's not well stated.




It's typical Loud bull**** and Mark Wieber ass kissing.




jon, I still can't believe anyone would AVOID using metallic cable (MC) and instead use non-metallic cable (Romex)


America will only start to bet better when short term price isn't the overriding concern. Most of America has lost sight of what the big picture is.


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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 4:12:21 PM UTC-4, jon_banquer wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:15:28 PM UTC-7, wrote:

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:00:08 AM UTC-4, jon_banquer wrote:


On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:42:55 AM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:


On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 18:10:30 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
















lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:














Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:








































True. Which is why one puts wiring protectors on every pass through
















point on each stud. One on each side of the stud.
















































Don't waste your breath. These are the same idiots that think you cannot
















remove a plastic box from the wall without ripping out the drywall.
































I wonder if they've ever tried to remove a steel box from behind the
















finish!

















I wonder if they've ever explored an "old work box" for repairs.


These are the same idiots that think 'wattage' corresponds to 'shock


potential'.
































Obviously, they're dealing with the "mystical electrik fluids" of pre-
















Faraday times.




I like metal boxes, too, for their durability and fastener resistance,












but there's not a whit of fact in any of the bull**** they've been


spouting.


Well stated.


No it's not well stated.


It's typical Loud bull**** and Mark Wieber ass kissing.


jon, I still can't believe anyone would AVOID using metallic cable (MC) and instead use non-metallic cable (Romex)


America will only start to bet better when short term price isn't
the overriding concern. Most of America has lost sight of what
the big picture is.


Yeah, but then anti-union, far-right elements of the media would scream "inflation !!", "inflation !!" ,"inflation !!" ,"inflation !!" ,"inflation !!" like they always do during crests.

But like I always say to comfort myself, at least most of the other industrialized nations have it right, even if we don't.
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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:39:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:

Yeah, but then anti-union, far-right elements of the media would scream "inflation !!", "inflation !!" ,"inflation !!" ,"inflation !!" ,"inflation !!" like they always do during crests.



But like I always say to comfort myself, at least most of the other industrialized nations have it right, even if we don't.


I see some hope in the rise in awareness by more Americans of who Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are and what they stand for.

The massive incompetency of the current GOP may finally work in the favor of those who want serious change in the direction America is going in.









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On 7/22/2014 2:45 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:43:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:22:39 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

On 7/22/2014 2:06 PM,
wrote:



On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:28:45 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:




On 7/20/2014 11:33 AM,
wrote:







On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:50:58 PM UTC-4, John G wrote:








explained on 20/07/2014 :







Where ever it is measured on the property MINUS VAR. Because that's resistance of volt amps.
















Anything below 5 millivolts is not harmful to persons/property (including VARs). Its in any NEC.
















In other words, the more metal there is between that 5mv+ and the main panel's box,
















itself the more potential to a path back (which means less potential for








a live person to get in the way)








Most of what I snipped was wrong or not understandable.
















Higher voltages are more apt to deliver more current through your body,








PERIOD.
















One thing I think I see you saying is, you are placing your body as the








return line for the 240V device. So if we consider a TV that uses








120 Watts, At 240 volts the TV would draw 500 milliamps, at 120 volts








it would draw 1000 milliamps. If you put your body in the return line








you might think you are safer at 240 Volts.








The resistance of the human body in contact with a electrified metal








part can very greatly from 500 ohms immersed in water to 1 million ohms








on dry skin. So I'll pick 15,000 ohms for each body/conductor








connection, for a total of 30,000 ohms.








A 120 Watt, 240 volt TV is equivalent to a 480 ohm resistance.








A 120 Watt, 120 Volt TV is equivalent to a 120 ohm resistance.
















If we add the TV's resistance to the body/conductor connection we get,








30,480 ohms for the 240 Volt circuit, and 30,120 ohms for the 120 Volt








circuit.








If you do the math, the 240 Volt circuit has a current flow through








your body of 7.8 milliamps.








The 120 volt circuit has a current flow through your body of








3.98 milliamps.








Using your 5mv number 240 Volts is deadly, 120 Volts is not.
















If I did not understand correctly that your thinking is, "you are








placing your body as the return line" then all of the above is still








relevant but may not have given you the info you need for understanding.








If you don't understand how I did the math to get the numbers please








ask and I will type it out.








The whole problem is that no one here is mentioning the NEC. Don't use your own figuring. Instead, use examples from the NEC. Discard your "figuring".








Here is something from an NEC study guide which is what I meant.








"Nonmetallic boxes are not permitted to be used with a metallic wiring method because there is no way to maintain the electrical continuity of the effective ground"








--
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20050510.php (2nd question - answer)











Here is what you said that many of us disagree with. "Overhead




commercial lighting voltage is 277 so its less current and less




dangerous" (than a lower voltage, higher current) I added the line in




parentheses because I think that is what you meant. Is that correct?








What does your link have to do with higher voltages being safer?




Mikek




To get higher voltage, you have to reduce current (if all from the same service).


High current and low voltage is the danger. (Much moreso than higher voltage and lower current)

Now I think you are just pulling my leg. But just in case, how many
people are electrocuted from an automobile electrical system. LOw
voltage hundreds of amps.

Seriously, do you believe " High current and low voltage is the danger"
If so I'll continue to work with you.
Do you know ohms law?
Do you understand that for a fixed resistance, current is totally
dependent on voltage?
Mikek

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amdx fired this volley in news:lqmpms$icm$1@dont-
email.me:

Seriously, do you believe " High current and low voltage is the

danger"
If so I'll continue to work with you.
Do you know ohms law?
Do you understand that for a fixed resistance, current is totally
dependent on voltage?


No, he doesn't. He also doesn't seem to understand that 277VAC service
has the potential (G) to deliver way more than the 5ma the human body
model responds to (adversely).

One might wonder why they would use high voltage for an electric chair
(well... not _really_ high... 500-2000V), if lower voltage (higher
current!snicker) would be more deadly. But then, this idiot is just
Jonniefag Bank-less in other clothes.

HEH! He even carries on conversations with himself in his posts! G

Lloyd


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On 7/22/2014 6:06 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
amdx fired this volley in news:lqmpms$icm$1@dont-
email.me:

Seriously, do you believe " High current and low voltage is the

danger"
If so I'll continue to work with you.
Do you know ohms law?
Do you understand that for a fixed resistance, current is totally
dependent on voltage?


No, he doesn't.


It seems he doesn't but I'll wait for him to respond.

He also doesn't seem to understand that 277VAC service
has the potential (G) to deliver way more than the 5ma the human body
model responds to (adversely).


Yes, his writings would suggest that, when he responds, I'll see if I
can walk him through ohms law, to show him how it works.
I thought my long winded explanation was pretty good, but if you
don't know ohms law, you won't know where the numbers come from, so
it wouldn't make sense.
Mikek
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amdx fired this volley in news:lqmt9f$6sl$1@dont-
email.me:

Yes, his writings would suggest that, when he responds,


You won't really succeed at convincing this particular person of
anything.

He is truly insane, destitute, and socially inept. He's a mentally-
disabled welfare patient, living on the dole.

If you attempt to correct or teach him anything, he will disparage you
with vicious cursing, insistances of his superior knowlege, and inane
(very) comparisons to himself.

Don't waste your breath unless he begs instruction -- and then be ready
for the repercussions.

Lloyd
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On 7/20/2014 3:51 PM, wrote:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 9:07:36 PM UTC-4, jon_banquer wrote:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 12:54:43 PM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:



"Whats wrong with plastic boxes..both the gray type and the Carlon

type?"





For starters when plastic boxes crack you have to remove the sheet rock around them to replace them. Metal boxes don't crack like plastic ones do. If you strip the thread in a metal box you can retread it without having to remove it. If you are in it for the long run plastic boxes aren't the way to go.



I seriously doubt Mark Wieber is capable of doing any kind of quality work.


Clearly absolutely NO BODY on this particular thread is a licensed electrician. Then again, I guess no one claimed it.

Rodents can chew through everything. Even metal. So plastic that was fitted with the fried chicken greasy hands he just finished using from lunchtime will attract rodents after finished work who can motor through it.

Rodents hurt their gums when they try to chew through sheet metal studs and pot metal couplings, end caps, connectors, boxes, etc.

And yes, everything should be grounded. That reduces a person own potential to be hit with electrocution of 5 millivolts or more. The less use of non-metallic non-conductor, the better.


Hmm... If you have rubber sole shoes the all metal boxes and metal
conduit could be what kills you. if you touch the grounded light
fixture, the electrical box or the conduit while you are in contact with
the hot wire, it could kill you. If it was all plastic and you touched
it while in contact with the hot wire, you probably wouldn't even feel it.

Mikek
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amdx fired this volley in
:

Hmm... If you have rubber sole shoes the all metal boxes and metal
conduit could be what kills you. if you touch the grounded light
fixture, the electrical box or the conduit while you are in contact
with the hot wire, it could kill you. If it was all plastic and you
touched it while in contact with the hot wire, you probably wouldn't
even feel it.


NO! Really? I guess the next thing you'll say (G) is that it's not
5mV, but 5mA _current_ through the heart muscle that can cause a problem?

Maybe you could comment on removing a plastic box from the wall without
pulling off "all the drywall". (can anyone say "recip saw with a thin
blade that will cut two common 10d nails?) G

I'm glad you decided to comment. You sound like you just might have some
practical electrical knowledge.

Lloyd
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On 7/22/2014 8:11 PM, amdx wrote:
1

Hmm... If you have rubber sole shoes the all metal boxes and metal
conduit could be what kills you. if you touch the grounded light
fixture, the electrical box or the conduit while you are in contact with
the hot wire, it could kill you. If it was all plastic and you touched
it while in contact with the hot wire, you probably wouldn't even feel it.

Mikek


One is supposed to keep the left hand in a pocket. Keeping hand to hand
killing current out of the picture.

I don't see an electrician putting a finger in a socket and grounding
his other hand. That is a set up condition. Not going to happen.

Getting a shock across a finger won't kill you.
Getting a shock across two fingers won't kill you.

The rubber soles prevent current flow through the feet therefore they
prevent current across the heart or lungs. Only hand to hand is left.

Stand on the right foot and use the right hand. No heart issue.

A metal box by law must be grounded to the third wire. AKA green or
green/yellow.

The black is the killer wire - aka black death
The white is the saving wire - aka angel of care.

one could take a hit through a foot and a sweaty T-shirt trickle.
(rare).

Martin


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On 2014-07-21, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 7/20/2014 7:50 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 20 Jul 2014 00:52:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]

And, while the initial resistance will be a function mostly of
the moisture and salinity of the hands contacting the voltage source,
once the initial current starts to flow, the skin breaks down and the
resistance drops rapidly -- and the more the voltage, the more rapidly
the resistance drops. And the current needed for a fatal dosage is well
below the trip current levels of commercial circuit breakers. (I do
have some glass cartridge fuses rated at 1/100 Amp (10 mA) which should
be enough to protect you -- but not enough to allow most equipment to
operate, so that is why I still have those fuses unused. :-)


Anecdotally, 240 is safer because it will kick you off more quickly
than 120v.


Yes -- depending on the orientation of your hand. If you touch
the palm, you are more likely to grip firmly onto the source of the
electricity and soon be deal.

If you fall into wires and complete the circuit, you'll be
dead more quickly, but brushes against it are, IMHO, safer, and I'd
rather work with 240 than 120 for that reason. 5mil nitrile gloves are
a part of my DVM package, and I wear them when working with live
circuits. You can feel the voltage start to bite through them and
move your mostly-water body parts quickly out of contact. When
convenient (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the time), I shut off the breaker.
I have a healthy respect for deadly but wonderful electricity.

CAVEAT: Kids, don't try this at home.


Amen!

My worst zap was from a 2 KV bank of capacitors (200 uF total)
connected to a pair of transformers which could recharge the caps in 100
mS from a full discharge. That one got me from my index finger on my
left hand through my body to the right elbow (which was resting on a old
Tektronix tube 'scope. I spent what felt like five minutes looking for
my heartbeat, before I realized that that noise which was getting in the
way *was* my heartbeat. Sortly after that, I arranged for the whole
team to get CPR training. :-)

--
Liberalism is the result of severe pathogens in our society.

I had a friend years ago who's dad was a licensed electrician. Actually
2. Taught Electronics and dads push the 'new' stuff on the kids.

Anyway he was working in the Engineering building and with the cover off
a 880v 3 phase box - he was working the box hot. Normal. Power down
all sorts of expensive machines on those lines... He dropped his
screwdriver down into the panel. Vaporized the steel, plated his face
and upper body - his glasses in side of his goggles saved his eyes.
He was in tough shape for a month or so at the hospital.


Ouch!

Yes, sometimes, it is necessary to work on live circuits -- as
the only way to tell what they are doing. But when there is *that* much
power, I would really prefer to find some other way to do it. :-)

One has to be careful. Now they sell Be metal drivers and coated drivers.


O.K. I have to ask what the benefit of the Be (I presume
actually BeCu non-sparking tools), but I can't imagine the vapor from
them falling into a high power arc would be that much lower in
temperature, and given the hazards in machining BeCu, I can't imagine
that the vapor from that would be any too healthy compared to vaporized
steel.

The real place which I know of BeCu tools being preferred is
when working in an explosive atmosphere, as they don't generate
sparks when they hit other metals, while steel (especially hardened
steel) does -- thus being likely to ignite the explosive mixture.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 21:59:28 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 7/22/2014 8:11 PM, amdx wrote:
1

Hmm... If you have rubber sole shoes the all metal boxes and metal
conduit could be what kills you. if you touch the grounded light
fixture, the electrical box or the conduit while you are in contact with
the hot wire, it could kill you. If it was all plastic and you touched
it while in contact with the hot wire, you probably wouldn't even feel it.

Mikek


One is supposed to keep the left hand in a pocket. Keeping hand to hand
killing current out of the picture.

I don't see an electrician putting a finger in a socket and grounding
his other hand. That is a set up condition. Not going to happen.

Getting a shock across a finger won't kill you.
Getting a shock across two fingers won't kill you.

The rubber soles prevent current flow through the feet therefore they
prevent current across the heart or lungs. Only hand to hand is left.

Stand on the right foot and use the right hand. No heart issue.

A metal box by law must be grounded to the third wire. AKA green or
green/yellow.

The black is the killer wire - aka black death
The white is the saving wire - aka angel of care.

one could take a hit through a foot and a sweaty T-shirt trickle.
(rare).

Martin


Right! One hand in the pocket.... when you are on the top of a 20 ft.
ladder.
--

Cheers,

M.Y.Aquila
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Default grounding lightbulbs, fuses and other parts

On 23 Jul 2014 04:21:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-07-21, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 7/20/2014 7:50 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 20 Jul 2014 00:52:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]

And, while the initial resistance will be a function mostly of
the moisture and salinity of the hands contacting the voltage source,
once the initial current starts to flow, the skin breaks down and the
resistance drops rapidly -- and the more the voltage, the more rapidly
the resistance drops. And the current needed for a fatal dosage is well
below the trip current levels of commercial circuit breakers. (I do
have some glass cartridge fuses rated at 1/100 Amp (10 mA) which should
be enough to protect you -- but not enough to allow most equipment to
operate, so that is why I still have those fuses unused. :-)

Anecdotally, 240 is safer because it will kick you off more quickly
than 120v.


Yes -- depending on the orientation of your hand. If you touch
the palm, you are more likely to grip firmly onto the source of the
electricity and soon be deal.

If you fall into wires and complete the circuit, you'll be
dead more quickly, but brushes against it are, IMHO, safer, and I'd
rather work with 240 than 120 for that reason. 5mil nitrile gloves are
a part of my DVM package, and I wear them when working with live
circuits. You can feel the voltage start to bite through them and
move your mostly-water body parts quickly out of contact. When
convenient (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the time), I shut off the breaker.
I have a healthy respect for deadly but wonderful electricity.

CAVEAT: Kids, don't try this at home.


Amen!

My worst zap was from a 2 KV bank of capacitors (200 uF total)
connected to a pair of transformers which could recharge the caps in 100
mS from a full discharge. That one got me from my index finger on my
left hand through my body to the right elbow (which was resting on a old
Tektronix tube 'scope. I spent what felt like five minutes looking for
my heartbeat, before I realized that that noise which was getting in the
way *was* my heartbeat. Sortly after that, I arranged for the whole
team to get CPR training. :-)

--
Liberalism is the result of severe pathogens in our society.

I had a friend years ago who's dad was a licensed electrician. Actually
2. Taught Electronics and dads push the 'new' stuff on the kids.

Anyway he was working in the Engineering building and with the cover off
a 880v 3 phase box - he was working the box hot. Normal. Power down
all sorts of expensive machines on those lines... He dropped his
screwdriver down into the panel. Vaporized the steel, plated his face
and upper body - his glasses in side of his goggles saved his eyes.
He was in tough shape for a month or so at the hospital.


Ouch!

Yes, sometimes, it is necessary to work on live circuits -- as
the only way to tell what they are doing. But when there is *that* much
power, I would really prefer to find some other way to do it. :-)

One has to be careful. Now they sell Be metal drivers and coated drivers.


O.K. I have to ask what the benefit of the Be (I presume
actually BeCu non-sparking tools), but I can't imagine the vapor from
them falling into a high power arc would be that much lower in
temperature, and given the hazards in machining BeCu, I can't imagine
that the vapor from that would be any too healthy compared to vaporized
steel.

The real place which I know of BeCu tools being preferred is
when working in an explosive atmosphere, as they don't generate
sparks when they hit other metals, while steel (especially hardened
steel) does -- thus being likely to ignite the explosive mixture.

Enjoy,
DoN.


My hand tools..screw drivers mostly..that are used on subpanels etc
etc..ALL..ALL..EVERYONE has the shanks covered up with heat shrink
tubing all the way to the handles..with just the tip of the
screwdriver/nutdriver...sticking out.

I crossed a couple busses once with a bare screw driver blade and
melted it and the busses down.

Heat shrink tubing is very..very cheap protection

Gunner

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 13:39:18 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

America will only start to bet better when short term price isn't
the overriding concern. Most of America has lost sight of what
the big picture is.


Yeah, but then anti-union, far-right elements of the media would scream "inflation !!", "inflation !!" ,"inflation !!" ,"inflation !!" ,"inflation !!" like they always do during crests.


Which Anti-union , far right media are you talking about? You mean
there actually IS such a thing????

Which one is it? ABC? CBS? NBC? CNN?

But like I always say to comfort myself, at least most of the other industrialized nations have it right, even if we don't.


What other industrialized nations are you chattering about?

These?

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...-eu-countries/

One should note..that those numbers are the U3 numbers..not the U6
numbers

So if you at the least..double the numbers listed..it will be far
closer to accurate


If you notice the corrected data from 2011...you will see exactly what
U6 means

http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/11/13...-europe-chart/



Our current U6 rates...updated within the last day

http://www.macrotrends.net/1377/u6-unemployment-rate


As you will notice..Europe is in as big a ******** as we are.

Gunner

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:44:55 +0700, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 21:59:28 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 7/22/2014 8:11 PM, amdx wrote:
1

Hmm... If you have rubber sole shoes the all metal boxes and metal
conduit could be what kills you. if you touch the grounded light
fixture, the electrical box or the conduit while you are in contact with
the hot wire, it could kill you. If it was all plastic and you touched
it while in contact with the hot wire, you probably wouldn't even feel it.

Mikek


One is supposed to keep the left hand in a pocket. Keeping hand to hand
killing current out of the picture.

I don't see an electrician putting a finger in a socket and grounding
his other hand. That is a set up condition. Not going to happen.

Getting a shock across a finger won't kill you.
Getting a shock across two fingers won't kill you.

The rubber soles prevent current flow through the feet therefore they
prevent current across the heart or lungs. Only hand to hand is left.

Stand on the right foot and use the right hand. No heart issue.

A metal box by law must be grounded to the third wire. AKA green or
green/yellow.

The black is the killer wire - aka black death
The white is the saving wire - aka angel of care.

one could take a hit through a foot and a sweaty T-shirt trickle.
(rare).

Martin


Right! One hand in the pocket.... when you are on the top of a 20 ft.
ladder.


And making up wire nuts......

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."


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Gunner Asch on Wed, 23 Jul 2014 03:23:32 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

One has to be careful. Now they sell Be metal drivers and coated drivers.


O.K. I have to ask what the benefit of the Be (I presume
actually BeCu non-sparking tools), but I can't imagine the vapor from
them falling into a high power arc would be that much lower in
temperature, and given the hazards in machining BeCu, I can't imagine
that the vapor from that would be any too healthy compared to vaporized
steel.

The real place which I know of BeCu tools being preferred is
when working in an explosive atmosphere, as they don't generate
sparks when they hit other metals, while steel (especially hardened
steel) does -- thus being likely to ignite the explosive mixture.

Enjoy,
DoN.


My hand tools..screw drivers mostly..that are used on subpanels etc
etc..ALL..ALL..EVERYONE has the shanks covered up with heat shrink
tubing all the way to the handles..with just the tip of the
screwdriver/nutdriver...sticking out.

I crossed a couple busses once with a bare screw driver blade and
melted it and the busses down.

Heat shrink tubing is very..very cheap protection


Much neater than duct tape - which I've used.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
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pyotr filipivich fired this volley in
news
Heat shrink tubing is very..very cheap protection


Much neater than duct tape - which I've used.


In either case, several layers are called for, if you're doing 'vigorous'
work. One layer might pierce easily on a sharp edge... and EVERYTHING
inside a distribution box is stamped, with sharp edged.

Lloyd
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Default grounding lightbulbs, fuses and other parts

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 6:47:48 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/22/2014 2:45 PM, wrote:

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:43:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:


On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:22:39 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:




On 7/22/2014 2:06 PM,
wrote:







On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:28:45 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:








On 7/20/2014 11:33 AM,
wrote:















On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:50:58 PM UTC-4, John G wrote:
















explained on 20/07/2014 :















Where ever it is measured on the property MINUS VAR. Because that's resistance of volt amps.
































Anything below 5 millivolts is not harmful to persons/property (including VARs). Its in any NEC.
































In other words, the more metal there is between that 5mv+ and the main panel's box,
































itself the more potential to a path back (which means less potential for
















a live person to get in the way)
















Most of what I snipped was wrong or not understandable.
































Higher voltages are more apt to deliver more current through your body,
















PERIOD.
































One thing I think I see you saying is, you are placing your body as the
















return line for the 240V device. So if we consider a TV that uses
















120 Watts, At 240 volts the TV would draw 500 milliamps, at 120 volts
















it would draw 1000 milliamps. If you put your body in the return line
















you might think you are safer at 240 Volts.
















The resistance of the human body in contact with a electrified metal
















part can very greatly from 500 ohms immersed in water to 1 million ohms
















on dry skin. So I'll pick 15,000 ohms for each body/conductor
















connection, for a total of 30,000 ohms.
















A 120 Watt, 240 volt TV is equivalent to a 480 ohm resistance.
















A 120 Watt, 120 Volt TV is equivalent to a 120 ohm resistance.
































If we add the TV's resistance to the body/conductor connection we get,
















30,480 ohms for the 240 Volt circuit, and 30,120 ohms for the 120 Volt
















circuit.
















If you do the math, the 240 Volt circuit has a current flow through
















your body of 7.8 milliamps.
















The 120 volt circuit has a current flow through your body of
















3.98 milliamps.
















Using your 5mv number 240 Volts is deadly, 120 Volts is not.
































If I did not understand correctly that your thinking is, "you are
















placing your body as the return line" then all of the above is still
















relevant but may not have given you the info you need for understanding.
















If you don't understand how I did the math to get the numbers please
















ask and I will type it out.
















The whole problem is that no one here is mentioning the NEC. Don't use your own figuring. Instead, use examples from the NEC. Discard your "figuring".
















Here is something from an NEC study guide which is what I meant.
















"Nonmetallic boxes are not permitted to be used with a metallic wiring method because there is no way to maintain the electrical continuity of the effective ground"
















--
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20050510.php (2nd question - answer)























Here is what you said that many of us disagree with. "Overhead








commercial lighting voltage is 277 so its less current and less








dangerous" (than a lower voltage, higher current) I added the line in








parentheses because I think that is what you meant. Is that correct?
















What does your link have to do with higher voltages being safer?








Mikek








To get higher voltage, you have to reduce current (if all from the same service).




High current and low voltage is the danger. (Much moreso than higher voltage and lower current)




Now I think you are just pulling my leg. But just in case, how many


Your unwillingness to even mention anything about the NEC shows me you are just pulling mine.

In any completed Kilowatt Hour service supply, the higher the voltage, yes, the lower the current.

I don't need your opinions on ohms law, BTW)
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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 7:48:56 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/22/2014 6:06 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

amdx fired this volley in news:lqmpms$icm$1@dont-


email.me:




Seriously, do you believe " High current and low voltage is the


danger"


If so I'll continue to work with you.


Do you know ohms law?


Do you understand that for a fixed resistance, current is totally


dependent on voltage?




No, he doesn't.




It seems he doesn't but I'll wait for him to respond.



He also doesn't seem to understand that 277VAC service


has the potential (G) to deliver way more than the 5ma the human body


model responds to (adversely).





Yes, his writings would suggest that, when he responds, I'll see if I

can walk him through ohms law, to show him how it works.


How can you show anyone what ohm's law does if you can't even accept that transformed higher voltage means lower current and vice-versa?

(and what part of your own writings show that you are even familiar with NEC?)
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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:00:53 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
amdx fired this volley in news:lqmt9f$6sl$1@dont-

email.me:



Yes, his writings would suggest that, when he responds,




You won't really succeed at convincing this particular person of

anything.



He is truly insane, destitute, and socially inept. He's a mentally-

disabled welfare patient, living on the dole.


I bet I do more work in a day than a senile person like you does all week.
You don't even know the value of Linux. That says it all right there.



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On 7/23/2014 2:37 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 7:48:56 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/22/2014 6:06 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

amdx fired this volley in news:lqmpms$icm$1@dont-


email.me:




Seriously, do you believe " High current and low voltage is the


danger"


If so I'll continue to work with you.


Do you know ohms law?


Do you understand that for a fixed resistance, current is totally


dependent on voltage?




No, he doesn't.




It seems he doesn't but I'll wait for him to respond.



He also doesn't seem to understand that 277VAC service


has the potential (G) to deliver way more than the 5ma the human body


model responds to (adversely).





Yes, his writings would suggest that, when he responds, I'll see if I

can walk him through ohms law, to show him how it works.


How can you show anyone what ohm's law does if you can't even accept that transformed higher voltage means lower current and vice-versa?


You haven't completed that sentence.

If you are distributing power, a higher voltage line can deliver the
same amount of power at a lower current than a lower voltage line.
But you will be killed by a 330kV line easier than a 120 volt line.
That ay be why they put 330kV lines on tall towers and put 120 volts
in your house.

If you are talking about connecting a 240 volt line to your left hand
and grounding you right hand vs doing the same with a 120 volt line,
more current will flow with higher 240 volt line.
I got into the discussion when you said,
"Overhead commercial lighting voltage is 277 so its less current and
less dangerous,"
So to rephrase you said, 277 volts is less dangerous than a lower voltage.
Do you still think this?
Mikek




---
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http://www.avast.com

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wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 6:47:48 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/22/2014 2:45 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:43:41 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:22:39 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/22/2014 2:06 PM,
wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:28:45 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/20/2014 11:33 AM,
wrote:
On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:50:58 PM UTC-4, John G wrote:
explained on 20/07/2014 :


Your unwillingness to even mention anything about the NEC shows me
you are just pulling mine.

In any completed Kilowatt Hour service supply, the higher the
voltage, yes, the lower the current.

I don't need your opinions on ohms law, BTW)



For a given load horsepower, yes a higher voltage results in a lower
current -demand-, but whatever its voltage the supply transformer can
still deliver enough current to cause a very destructive
vaporized-metal explosion if you short the lines.
http://www.ci.longmont.co.us/lpc/con...ult_charts.htm
Even the pole transformer feeding your house can supply over 5,000
Amps if shorted.

I needed to know the short-circuit current to specify a fuse or
circuit breaker with an appropriate interrupting rating.
http://ecmweb.com/content/understand...eaker-markings
"If the breaker doesn't have a suitable interrupting rating for the
available fault current, it could explode while attempting to clear a
fault,..."

The UL tests to confirm breaker interrupting rating are spectacular
fountains of fire.

Fuses have voltage as well as current ratings based on the internal
arc they can extinguish.

-jsw,
once tasked to ensure that custom electrical equipment shipped
overseas met the appropriate CSA, Ontario Hydro, NEMKO/SEMKO/DEMKO,
TUV etc safety requirements. Meeting NEC and UL requirements doesn't
guarantee compliance elsewhere, for example Norway wanted a list of
all cadmium- and nickel-plated hardware. Before RoHS they couldn't
exclude them, but they could make using them annoying.


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On 7/23/2014 5:36 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
No knum nuts -

One puts the hand in pocket when the other is in the hot zone.
One can hold onto a ladder with one arm and in a pocket if you don't
have belts to do it for you.

Just don't get one hand on ground and the other on a hot. That is the point.

Martin
Right! One hand in the pocket.... when you are on the top of a 20 ft.
ladder.


And making up wire nuts......

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."


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On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 8:15:26 PM UTC-7, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 7/23/2014 5:36 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

No knum nuts -



One puts the hand in pocket when the other is in the hot zone.

One can hold onto a ladder with one arm and in a pocket if you don't

have belts to do it for you.



Just don't get one hand on ground and the other on a hot. That is the point.



Martin

Right! One hand in the pocket.... when you are on the top of a 20 ft.


ladder.




And making up wire nuts......




--


"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.


We're in a great place, just at a bad time."





Mark Wieber doesn't have any nuts. I ripped them off and shoved them down his throat.
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On 7/22/2014 11:21 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2014-07-21, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 7/20/2014 7:50 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 20 Jul 2014 00:52:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]

And, while the initial resistance will be a function mostly of
the moisture and salinity of the hands contacting the voltage source,
once the initial current starts to flow, the skin breaks down and the
resistance drops rapidly -- and the more the voltage, the more rapidly
the resistance drops. And the current needed for a fatal dosage is well
below the trip current levels of commercial circuit breakers. (I do
have some glass cartridge fuses rated at 1/100 Amp (10 mA) which should
be enough to protect you -- but not enough to allow most equipment to
operate, so that is why I still have those fuses unused. :-)

Anecdotally, 240 is safer because it will kick you off more quickly
than 120v.


Yes -- depending on the orientation of your hand. If you touch
the palm, you are more likely to grip firmly onto the source of the
electricity and soon be deal.

If you fall into wires and complete the circuit, you'll be
dead more quickly, but brushes against it are, IMHO, safer, and I'd
rather work with 240 than 120 for that reason. 5mil nitrile gloves are
a part of my DVM package, and I wear them when working with live
circuits. You can feel the voltage start to bite through them and
move your mostly-water body parts quickly out of contact. When
convenient (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the time), I shut off the breaker.
I have a healthy respect for deadly but wonderful electricity.

CAVEAT: Kids, don't try this at home.


Amen!

My worst zap was from a 2 KV bank of capacitors (200 uF total)
connected to a pair of transformers which could recharge the caps in 100
mS from a full discharge. That one got me from my index finger on my
left hand through my body to the right elbow (which was resting on a old
Tektronix tube 'scope. I spent what felt like five minutes looking for
my heartbeat, before I realized that that noise which was getting in the
way *was* my heartbeat. Sortly after that, I arranged for the whole
team to get CPR training. :-)

--
Liberalism is the result of severe pathogens in our society.

I had a friend years ago who's dad was a licensed electrician. Actually
2. Taught Electronics and dads push the 'new' stuff on the kids.

Anyway he was working in the Engineering building and with the cover off
a 880v 3 phase box - he was working the box hot. Normal. Power down
all sorts of expensive machines on those lines... He dropped his
screwdriver down into the panel. Vaporized the steel, plated his face
and upper body - his glasses in side of his goggles saved his eyes.
He was in tough shape for a month or so at the hospital.


Ouch!

Yes, sometimes, it is necessary to work on live circuits -- as
the only way to tell what they are doing. But when there is *that* much
power, I would really prefer to find some other way to do it. :-)

One has to be careful. Now they sell Be metal drivers and coated drivers.


O.K. I have to ask what the benefit of the Be (I presume
actually BeCu non-sparking tools), but I can't imagine the vapor from
them falling into a high power arc would be that much lower in
temperature, and given the hazards in machining BeCu, I can't imagine
that the vapor from that would be any too healthy compared to vaporized
steel.

The real place which I know of BeCu tools being preferred is
when working in an explosive atmosphere, as they don't generate
sparks when they hit other metals, while steel (especially hardened
steel) does -- thus being likely to ignite the explosive mixture.

Enjoy,
DoN.

IIRC BeCu tools are non-conductive. They won't cause an arc (explode
gas) if shorted across terminals.

We used bronze in the paint shop at GM, but that was in the late 60's.
I was plant security the summer between college and contract work.

Martin


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Default grounding lightbulbs, fuses and other parts

On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 22:24:22 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 7/22/2014 11:21 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2014-07-21, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 7/20/2014 7:50 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 20 Jul 2014 00:52:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]

And, while the initial resistance will be a function mostly of
the moisture and salinity of the hands contacting the voltage source,
once the initial current starts to flow, the skin breaks down and the
resistance drops rapidly -- and the more the voltage, the more rapidly
the resistance drops. And the current needed for a fatal dosage is well
below the trip current levels of commercial circuit breakers. (I do
have some glass cartridge fuses rated at 1/100 Amp (10 mA) which should
be enough to protect you -- but not enough to allow most equipment to
operate, so that is why I still have those fuses unused. :-)

Anecdotally, 240 is safer because it will kick you off more quickly
than 120v.


Yes -- depending on the orientation of your hand. If you touch
the palm, you are more likely to grip firmly onto the source of the
electricity and soon be deal.

If you fall into wires and complete the circuit, you'll be
dead more quickly, but brushes against it are, IMHO, safer, and I'd
rather work with 240 than 120 for that reason. 5mil nitrile gloves are
a part of my DVM package, and I wear them when working with live
circuits. You can feel the voltage start to bite through them and
move your mostly-water body parts quickly out of contact. When
convenient (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the time), I shut off the breaker.
I have a healthy respect for deadly but wonderful electricity.

CAVEAT: Kids, don't try this at home.


Amen!

My worst zap was from a 2 KV bank of capacitors (200 uF total)
connected to a pair of transformers which could recharge the caps in 100
mS from a full discharge. That one got me from my index finger on my
left hand through my body to the right elbow (which was resting on a old
Tektronix tube 'scope. I spent what felt like five minutes looking for
my heartbeat, before I realized that that noise which was getting in the
way *was* my heartbeat. Sortly after that, I arranged for the whole
team to get CPR training. :-)

--
Liberalism is the result of severe pathogens in our society.

I had a friend years ago who's dad was a licensed electrician. Actually
2. Taught Electronics and dads push the 'new' stuff on the kids.

Anyway he was working in the Engineering building and with the cover off
a 880v 3 phase box - he was working the box hot. Normal. Power down
all sorts of expensive machines on those lines... He dropped his
screwdriver down into the panel. Vaporized the steel, plated his face
and upper body - his glasses in side of his goggles saved his eyes.
He was in tough shape for a month or so at the hospital.


Ouch!

Yes, sometimes, it is necessary to work on live circuits -- as
the only way to tell what they are doing. But when there is *that* much
power, I would really prefer to find some other way to do it. :-)

One has to be careful. Now they sell Be metal drivers and coated drivers.


O.K. I have to ask what the benefit of the Be (I presume
actually BeCu non-sparking tools), but I can't imagine the vapor from
them falling into a high power arc would be that much lower in
temperature, and given the hazards in machining BeCu, I can't imagine
that the vapor from that would be any too healthy compared to vaporized
steel.

The real place which I know of BeCu tools being preferred is
when working in an explosive atmosphere, as they don't generate
sparks when they hit other metals, while steel (especially hardened
steel) does -- thus being likely to ignite the explosive mixture.

Enjoy,
DoN.

IIRC BeCu tools are non-conductive. They won't cause an arc (explode
gas) if shorted across terminals.

We used bronze in the paint shop at GM, but that was in the late 60's.
I was plant security the summer between college and contract work.

Martin


Nope. Beryllium copper alloys are high conductive materials.

Bronze is an allow of Tin and copper.

The U.S. Air force once issued beryllium copper tools for work on
airplanes as they are non-sparking. Sometime later they went to great
lengths to recover them from all tool boxes as the beryllium was said
to be toxic. I definitely remember the notice that Beryllium copper
tools were to be immediately turned into Supply for replacement.
--
Cheers,

John B.
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Default grounding lightbulbs, fuses and other parts

On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 22:15:26 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 7/23/2014 5:36 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
No knum nuts -

One puts the hand in pocket when the other is in the hot zone.
One can hold onto a ladder with one arm and in a pocket if you don't
have belts to do it for you.

Just don't get one hand on ground and the other on a hot. That is the point.


It sounds very plausible until you actually get to the top of the 20
foot ladder and discover that you have to stand on the top rung to
reach.

Of course, you could go down to Home Pro and buy a new 25 ft. ladder
but you've only got this single connection to make and you're done
with this stinking job....

Martin
Right! One hand in the pocket.... when you are on the top of a 20 ft.
ladder.


And making up wire nuts......

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."

--
Cheers,

John B.
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Default grounding lightbulbs, fuses and other parts

On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:52:46 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 22:24:22 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 7/22/2014 11:21 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2014-07-21, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 7/20/2014 7:50 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 20 Jul 2014 00:52:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

And, while the initial resistance will be a function mostly of
the moisture and salinity of the hands contacting the voltage source,
once the initial current starts to flow, the skin breaks down and the
resistance drops rapidly -- and the more the voltage, the more rapidly
the resistance drops. And the current needed for a fatal dosage is well
below the trip current levels of commercial circuit breakers. (I do
have some glass cartridge fuses rated at 1/100 Amp (10 mA) which should
be enough to protect you -- but not enough to allow most equipment to
operate, so that is why I still have those fuses unused. :-)

Anecdotally, 240 is safer because it will kick you off more quickly
than 120v.

Yes -- depending on the orientation of your hand. If you touch
the palm, you are more likely to grip firmly onto the source of the
electricity and soon be deal.

If you fall into wires and complete the circuit, you'll be
dead more quickly, but brushes against it are, IMHO, safer, and I'd
rather work with 240 than 120 for that reason. 5mil nitrile gloves are
a part of my DVM package, and I wear them when working with live
circuits. You can feel the voltage start to bite through them and
move your mostly-water body parts quickly out of contact. When
convenient (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the time), I shut off the breaker.
I have a healthy respect for deadly but wonderful electricity.

CAVEAT: Kids, don't try this at home.

Amen!

My worst zap was from a 2 KV bank of capacitors (200 uF total)
connected to a pair of transformers which could recharge the caps in 100
mS from a full discharge. That one got me from my index finger on my
left hand through my body to the right elbow (which was resting on a old
Tektronix tube 'scope. I spent what felt like five minutes looking for
my heartbeat, before I realized that that noise which was getting in the
way *was* my heartbeat. Sortly after that, I arranged for the whole
team to get CPR training. :-)

--
Liberalism is the result of severe pathogens in our society.

I had a friend years ago who's dad was a licensed electrician. Actually
2. Taught Electronics and dads push the 'new' stuff on the kids.

Anyway he was working in the Engineering building and with the cover off
a 880v 3 phase box - he was working the box hot. Normal. Power down
all sorts of expensive machines on those lines... He dropped his
screwdriver down into the panel. Vaporized the steel, plated his face
and upper body - his glasses in side of his goggles saved his eyes.
He was in tough shape for a month or so at the hospital.

Ouch!

Yes, sometimes, it is necessary to work on live circuits -- as
the only way to tell what they are doing. But when there is *that* much
power, I would really prefer to find some other way to do it. :-)

One has to be careful. Now they sell Be metal drivers and coated drivers.

O.K. I have to ask what the benefit of the Be (I presume
actually BeCu non-sparking tools), but I can't imagine the vapor from
them falling into a high power arc would be that much lower in
temperature, and given the hazards in machining BeCu, I can't imagine
that the vapor from that would be any too healthy compared to vaporized
steel.

The real place which I know of BeCu tools being preferred is
when working in an explosive atmosphere, as they don't generate
sparks when they hit other metals, while steel (especially hardened
steel) does -- thus being likely to ignite the explosive mixture.

Enjoy,
DoN.

IIRC BeCu tools are non-conductive. They won't cause an arc (explode
gas) if shorted across terminals.

We used bronze in the paint shop at GM, but that was in the late 60's.
I was plant security the summer between college and contract work.

Martin


Nope. Beryllium copper alloys are high conductive materials.

Bronze is an allow of Tin and copper.

Alloy is not spelled "allow", even when it contains beryllium :-)


The U.S. Air force once issued beryllium copper tools for work on
airplanes as they are non-sparking. Sometime later they went to great
lengths to recover them from all tool boxes as the beryllium was said
to be toxic. I definitely remember the notice that Beryllium copper
tools were to be immediately turned into Supply for replacement.



--
Cheers,

John B.
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Default grounding lightbulbs, fuses and other parts

On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 22:15:26 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 7/23/2014 5:36 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
No knum nuts -

One puts the hand in pocket when the other is in the hot zone.
One can hold onto a ladder with one arm and in a pocket if you don't
have belts to do it for you.

Just don't get one hand on ground and the other on a hot. That is the point.


Many of us HAVE to splice or hook up live wiring. Its part of the
maintenance thingy. So we are very..very careful about NOT grabbing
anything that is "ground"...but still work with both hands.

Shrug

Gunner


Martin
Right! One hand in the pocket.... when you are on the top of a 20 ft.
ladder.


And making up wire nuts......

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."


--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."
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Default grounding lightbulbs, fuses and other parts

Martin Eastburn fired this volley in news:N%
:

IIRC BeCu tools are non-conductive.


YRI (you recall incorrectly). Beryllium copper and beryllium bronze are
"non-sparking alloys". They're used in explosive environments (of which I
have some experience), because they will not raise a spark when struck
against themselves or other metal surfaces.

Beryllium/copper/tin/zinc alloys are used all the time for springs and
electrical contacts in fixtures, switches, and machinery.

LLoyd


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On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 5:56:15 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

"Overhead commercial lighting voltage is 277 so its less current and

less dangerous,"

So to rephrase you said, 277 volts is less dangerous than a lower voltage.

Do you still think this?


No, not if your high voltage lighting branches (brown, orange or yellow phases) are from a service or from a transformer arrangement different from your low voltage receptacles branches (black, blue, and red phases).

Yes, if transformed 277vac and 120vac service is all from one service (of, say two phases of 500 kcmil going into the main interface).

And I don't "think" this. Its in the NEC
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On Thursday, July 24, 2014 11:04:39 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 5:56:15 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

So to rephrase you said, 277 volts is less dangerous than a lower voltage.


Do you still think this?


No, not if your high voltage lighting branches (brown, orange or yellow phases) are from a service or from a transformer arrangement different from your low voltage receptacles branches (black, blue, and red phases).

Yes, if transformed 277vac and 120vac service is all from one service (of, say two phases of 500 kcmil going into the main interface).

And I don't "think" this. Its in the NEC


Whether bad or good. Sometimes more than one service is coming into a structure. The NEC writes about that:

NEC 230.3 - "An SEC cannot supply a building through another structure"
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amdx fired this volley in news:lqrih3$spe$1@dont-
email.me:

Which section of the NEC says Low voltage is safer than high voltage.
You can quote the verbage here, " "

I wonder why sidewalk lighting is low voltage?
Seems like it should be 880vac for safety.


They don't seem to 'get' that although - yes - the 277V service might be
capable of delivering less current than the 240 (but not necessarily), it
can still deliver thousands of times more than necessary to fry off any
appendage you want to name.

Lloyd
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