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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 3rd 14, 05:50 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 366
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

In article , Frnak
McKenney wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 10:34:49 -0500, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Frnak
McKenney wrote:

Are metal-related questions still allowed here? grin!

Christmas brunch was wonderful. My sister and I were invited to eat
with a cousin and her family, and the French Toast -- made with slices
of French bread and peach butter -- was delicious.

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".


The Gorham line apparently still exists, as a part of the Lenox group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorham_...turing_Company

More generally, any major jeweler and/or manufacturer of silverware
will know what cement is used, and how to re-cement a loose handle.


Thanks, Joe. So you don't think it would vary from manufacturer to
manufacturer?


Things like that usually settle out to a few standard solutions. One
does not sell silverware on the beauty of one's handle cement.


In any case, it's worth following up.


Another place to look is catalogs of jewelry tool suppliers, like Shor
Intl Corp: https://www.ishor.com/index.php. (I didn't look for
handle cement, but if they don't carry it, I bet they will know who
does.)


Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as good as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.


I doubt that a dishwasher can do this to quality silverware, such as
that from Gorham. Lloyd's theory that most of the use is suffered by a
few of the knives may be the answer.

But this may be the answer:

.. http://www.silversuperstore.com/faq/silverware_9.html


Hm. That describes the substance as a "super strong epoxy", but also
describes it as becoming brittle. This stuff, which looks like a
thin, custard-coloerd ring, seems to be in good shape. At room
temperatures, of course. grin!

The effect of the dishwasher may be chemical, caused by the detergent.


Could be, though the epoxy doesn't seem cracked or mottled or pitted.
It's as if it partially melted, the blade slipped out a bit, and then
the epoxy re-hardened.


While one can soften a cured epoxy with heat, it will not melt. It is
not clear that what you have is an epoxy. Nor do epoxies melt and
solidify, unlike the traditional shellac-rosin-brickdust handle cement
mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

This traditional handle cement is thus a form of hot-melt adhesive.

If this is what was used, the handle can be re-affixed by clamping the
knife upright such that gravity tends to close the gap, and carefully
heating the handle with a heat gun until the cement melts, and then
walking away for at least three hours (to ensure complete cooling).


Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?


Depending on the age of the silverware, it may or may not be epoxy,
although epoxy may be what's used these days.


Hm. I'd say two decades or so, perhaps plus a little. ( But I should
ask rather than assuming. grin! )

The best epoxies cure slowly and require heat for a complete cure and
maximum strength.


Ah, but what loosens them? ( The epoxies, I mean. )


Stress while hot can do it. As can inadequate joint design.

Slow-cure (overnight) epoxy is far stronger than the 5-minute stuff.
But in all cases, cleaning the surfaces to be glued is critical - even
a hint of grease will prevent full strength.

If one is changing from traditional handle cement to epoxy, removal of
all of the old cement is essential. This will require use of solvents.
Beware ordinary acetone - it usually has some oil in it; this oil must
be removed before epoxy will bond.
Ads
  #22  
Old February 2nd 17, 03:08 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 at 4:01:27 PM UTC-6, Frnak McKenney wrote:
Are metal-related questions still allowed here? grin!

Christmas brunch was wonderful. My sister and I were invited to eat
with a cousin and her family, and the French Toast -- made with slices
of French bread and peach butter -- was delicious.

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".

Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as god as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?

It's not a life-or-death problem, but if anyone has any suggestions I
would appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks. And a Happy New Year and a Euphorious Epiphany to all!


Frank McKenney
--
A man who has faith must be prepared not only to be a martyr, but to
be a fool. It is absurd to say that a man is ready to toil and die
for his convictions when he is not even ready to wear a wreath for
them. -- G.K. Chesterton: Christmas and the Aesthetes (1905)
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com


  #24  
Old February 2nd 17, 09:11 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 199
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:55:59 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
wrote:


Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Classic problem with 2-part knives. We have a bunch of them that are doing
the same. There is a cavity in the handle that builds up steam pressure in
the dry cycle of the dishwasher. Yes, I'm guessing if you heat them and
press the blade back in, it will do the job. These things are so old, I
doubt they used epoxy, more liekly some older form of glue.

Jon


Epoxies came into widespread commercial use around 1950. If it's really old, more likely it's phenolic.

None of those thermosets can reliably be released with heat. It depends on the specific chemistry and the percentage of solids; If they're 100% solids, it's unlikely you can release them with heat.

I have some of those knives, which have been in the family since 1963. None of them have ever seen the inside of a dishwasher. They're really not up to it. Neither is anything else that contains a lot of silver.

--
Ed Huntress
  #25  
Old February 19th 17, 11:18 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 87
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Thu, 2 Feb 2017 12:11:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:55:59 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
wrote:


Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Classic problem with 2-part knives. We have a bunch of them that are
doing the same. There is a cavity in the handle that builds up steam
pressure in the dry cycle of the dishwasher. Yes, I'm guessing if
you heat them and press the blade back in, it will do the job. These
things are so old, I doubt they used epoxy, more liekly some older
form of glue.

Jon


Epoxies came into widespread commercial use around 1950. If it's
really old, more likely it's phenolic.

None of those thermosets can reliably be released with heat. It
depends on the specific chemistry and the percentage of solids; If
they're 100% solids, it's unlikely you can release them with heat.

I have some of those knives, which have been in the family since 1963.
None of them have ever seen the inside of a dishwasher. They're really
not up to it. Neither is anything else that contains a lot of silver.


Ed, Jon,

Thanks for the comments. Will pass them along.


Frank
--
Scientists are people of very dissimilar temperaments doing different
things in very different ways. Among scientists are collectors,
classifiers and compulsive tidiers-up; many are detectives by
temperament and many are explorers; some are artists and others
artisans. There are poet-scientists and philosopher-scientists and
even a few mystics. ... and most people who are in fact scientists
could easily have been something else instead.

-- Peter Medawar, "Hypothesis and Imagination"
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank und.scr mckenney aatt mindspring d.ot com

  #26  
Old February 20th 17, 05:27 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 16:18:36 -0600, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Feb 2017 12:11:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:55:59 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
wrote:


Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Classic problem with 2-part knives. We have a bunch of them that are
doing the same. There is a cavity in the handle that builds up steam
pressure in the dry cycle of the dishwasher. Yes, I'm guessing if
you heat them and press the blade back in, it will do the job. These
things are so old, I doubt they used epoxy, more liekly some older
form of glue.

Jon


Epoxies came into widespread commercial use around 1950. If it's
really old, more likely it's phenolic.

None of those thermosets can reliably be released with heat. It
depends on the specific chemistry and the percentage of solids; If
they're 100% solids, it's unlikely you can release them with heat.

I have some of those knives, which have been in the family since 1963.
None of them have ever seen the inside of a dishwasher. They're really
not up to it. Neither is anything else that contains a lot of silver.


Ed, Jon,

Thanks for the comments. Will pass them along.


Frank
--
Scientists are people of very dissimilar temperaments doing different
things in very different ways. Among scientists are collectors,
classifiers and compulsive tidiers-up; many are detectives by
temperament and many are explorers; some are artists and others
artisans. There are poet-scientists and philosopher-scientists and
even a few mystics. ... and most people who are in fact scientists
could easily have been something else instead.

-- Peter Medawar, "Hypothesis and Imagination"


Check this site out if you need a high temperature cement.
http://www.sauereisen.com/ceramic-as...product-index/
  #27  
Old February 21st 17, 03:55 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,145
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:27:12 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 16:18:36 -0600, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:55:59 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
wrote:


Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.



Check this site out if you need a high temperature cement.
http://www.sauereisen.com/ceramic-as...product-index/

That's probably a really pricy hi-tech goo.

I think I'd try a highly flexible, waterproof adhesive instead.
Either Plumber's Goop or E6000, which are very nearly identical.
https://www.amazon.com/E6000-237032-.../dp/B004BPHQWU

Dry the handle, use a toothpick to work some adhesive into the recess,
then push the cleaned stainless part in. Dry overnight, then pare off
the squeezeout. That should fix them for your lifetime, at least.

If they don't have notches (handle and knife shank), make a few for
better retention.

--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

 




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