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Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 1st 14, 08:30 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 4,632
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

Joe Gwinn fired this volley in
:

the other being one part zinc
oxide, one part calcium carbonate, and sufficient water glass (sodium
silicate) to make a slurry.


That's the one, but my understanding was that the zinc oxide is not
active, but only a pigment to whiten up the mix. Of course, I've not
made any in probably four decades, and don't remember if it was necessary
or not.

In any case, ZnO is not toxic, either.

This cement does not dry, but cures, and (IIRC) is waterproof after
curing.

Lloyd
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  #12  
Old January 3rd 14, 12:31 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 87
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 03:24:40 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 31-12-2013 23:01, Frnak McKenney skrev:

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".

Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as god as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?

It's not a life-or-death problem, but if anyone has any suggestions I
would appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks. And a Happy New Year and a Euphorious Epiphany to all!


Not a fix for the knives but an advise for washing such knives in an
dishwasher.
Did see the problem years ago and a member of the family came up
with this: Knives with blades glued into the handles are to be
washed with the blade downwards.
Did work for me and others in the family for years :-)


Thanks, Uffe.

Do you have any idea why that would make a difference? I suppose that,
once any separation existed between the blade and handle, it would
encourage water to drip out rather than collect.


Frank
--
"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is
like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a
vegetarian." -- Dennis Wholey
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

  #13  
Old January 3rd 14, 12:34 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 87
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 06:04:27 -0600, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Uffe Bærentsen fired this volley in
:

My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.



Normally, only about two or three more knives than the population of the
household ever get used. They get used, washed, and put back in the same
place. By habit and position in the keeping place, they're the ones
picked again next time one is needed.

Over and over. Got ten knives and two people at home? I'll bet fewer
than five ever show any signs of wear.

Lloyd


Good thought. I do notice that I use the same two table knives over
and over, pulling them out of the drainer and ignoring the ones in the
drawer.


Frank
--
"A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles
in this manner: Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs
is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the
good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected
for a moment and replied, "The one I feed the most."
-- George Bernard Shaw
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

  #14  
Old January 3rd 14, 12:40 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 87
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:00:43 -0600, Paul K. Dickman wrote:

"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
...
Den 31-12-2013 23:01, Frnak McKenney skrev:

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".


[...]

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might
be related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the
"epoxy" (an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?


[...]

They use epoxy nowadays and if yours are epoxied in, I wouldn't mess
with them until the blades actually fall out.

Traditionally, they used a proprietary mix of rosin, wax, shellac
and a filler like plaster or brickdust. It was called "Handle
cement" and is easily repaired. It is kind of like sealing wax (the
kind you used to melt onto the back of a letter and stamp with a
seal).

You have to be careful though. It absorbs moisture over the years
and will foam up and spit the blade out when remelted. The trick is
to melt as little as possible.


Thanks for the warning.

The tang on the blade is usually just a rough forged rod, about 3mm
in dia and about 2" (50mm) long.

Wear gloves, use a propane torch and gently heat the 2" section of
the handle and the bottom of the blade. Heat a little, then wait
for the heat to soak into the middle and repeat.
When it gets around 250 f (rough guess) it will start to push the
blade out. when it does shove the parts together and be sure to pay
attention to the alignment. When it is all good, hold still for a
couple of minutes while the cement cools down, then run the handle
under lukewarm water.

Excess cement will have oozed out. Chip it off with your thumbnail,
any excess can be removed with alcohol.

Paul K. Dickman


Thanks, Paul. I'll have to check with my cousin and see if she's
willing to sacrifice one knife to test this with, but the process
you've outlined is clear and specific. ( Is that legal here on on
USENET? grin! )


Frank
--
"I am Sex of Elven, Borg Dyslexix, prepare to be laminated."
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

  #15  
Old January 3rd 14, 12:58 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 87
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 10:34:49 -0500, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Frnak
McKenney wrote:

Are metal-related questions still allowed here? grin!

Christmas brunch was wonderful. My sister and I were invited to eat
with a cousin and her family, and the French Toast -- made with slices
of French bread and peach butter -- was delicious.

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".


The Gorham line apparently still exists, as a part of the Lenox group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorham_...turing_Company

More generally, any major jeweler and/or manufacturer of silverware
will know what cement is used, and how to re-cement a loose handle.


Thanks, Joe. So you don't think it would vary from manufacturer to
manufacturer?

In any case, it's worth following up.

Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as good as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.


I doubt that a dishwasher can do this to quality silverware, such as
that from Gorham. Lloyd's theory that most of the use is suffered by a
few of the knives may be the answer.

But this may be the answer:

.. http://www.silversuperstore.com/faq/silverware_9.html


Hm. That describes the substance as a "super strong epoxy", but also
describes it as becoming brittle. This stuff, which looks like a
thin, custard-coloerd ring, seems to be in good shape. At room
temperatures, of course. grin!

The effect of the dishwasher may be chemical, caused by the detergent.


Could be, though the epoxy doesn't seem cracked or mottled or pitted.
It's as if it partially melted, the blade slipped out a bit, and then
tne epoxy re-hardened.

Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?


Depending on the age of the silverware, it may or may not be epoxy,
although epoxy may be what's used these days.


Hm. I'd say two decades or so, perhaps plus a little. ( But I should
ask rather than assuming. grin! )

The best epoxies cure slowly and require heat for a complete cure and
maximum strength.


Ah, but what loosens them? ( The epoxies, I mean. )

Anyway, thank you for your comments.


Frank
--
There are perhaps 5% of the population that simply *can't* think.
There are another 5% who *can*, and *do*.
The remaining 90% *can* think, but *don't*. -- R. A. Heinlein
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

  #16  
Old January 3rd 14, 01:06 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 87
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 11:28:44 -0500, wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 10:34:49 -0500, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Frnak
McKenney wrote:

Are metal-related questions still allowed here? grin!

Christmas brunch was wonderful. My sister and I were invited to eat
with a cousin and her family, and the French Toast -- made with slices
of French bread and peach butter -- was delicious.

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".


The Gorham line apparently still exists, as a part of the Lenox group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorham_...turing_Company

More generally, any major jeweler and/or manufacturer of silverware
will know what cement is used, and how to re-cement a loose handle.


Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as good as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.


I doubt that a dishwasher can do this to quality silverware, such as
that from Gorham. Lloyd's theory that most of the use is suffered by a
few of the knives may be the answer.

But this may be the answer:

.. http://www.silversuperstore.com/faq/silverware_9.html

The effect of the dishwasher may be chemical, caused by the detergent.


Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?


Depending on the age of the silverware, it may or may not be epoxy,
although epoxy may be what's used these days.

The best epoxies cure slowly and require heat for a complete cure and
maximum strength.


Joe Gwinn


I recommend Sauereisen cement but I have no idea about where to buy a
small quantity.

http://www.sauereisen.com/AdhesivesP...Compounds.aspx


Hm. $65 a quart here, and that's the minimum:

http://www.ellsworth.com/product-lis...sen/8860/9880/

I guess it depends on how much "losing" the little cream-colored band
on her knives is worth, doesn't it?

Thanks.... um, "nobody".


Frank
--
What we're looking for: destinations.
What we end up getting: journeys.
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

  #17  
Old January 3rd 14, 01:13 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,894
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

Joe Gwinn fired this volley in
:

the other being one part zinc
oxide, one part calcium carbonate, and sufficient water glass (sodium
silicate) to make a slurry.


That's the one, but my understanding was that the zinc oxide is not
active, but only a pigment to whiten up the mix. Of course, I've not
made any in probably four decades, and don't remember if it was necessary
or not.

In any case, ZnO is not toxic, either.

This cement does not dry, but cures, and (IIRC) is waterproof after
curing.



Do you have any idea what GC tube cement was? It was used to hold
vacuum tubes to their Bakelite bases.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
  #18  
Old January 3rd 14, 01:49 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:

Do you have any idea what GC tube cement was? It was used to hold
vacuum tubes to their Bakelite bases.


Actually, Michael, I think that was the same goo. It sticks to glass and
metal most aggressively.

Lloyd
  #19  
Old January 3rd 14, 03:10 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,187
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 18:31:26 -0600, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 03:24:40 +0100, Uffe Brentsen wrote:
Den 31-12-2013 23:01, Frnak McKenney skrev:

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".

Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as god as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?

It's not a life-or-death problem, but if anyone has any suggestions I
would appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks. And a Happy New Year and a Euphorious Epiphany to all!


Not a fix for the knives but an advise for washing such knives in an
dishwasher.
Did see the problem years ago and a member of the family came up
with this: Knives with blades glued into the handles are to be
washed with the blade downwards.
Did work for me and others in the family for years :-)


Thanks, Uffe.

Do you have any idea why that would make a difference? I suppose that,
once any separation existed between the blade and handle, it would
encourage water to drip out rather than collect.


There's a big pressure differential between the knife handle being
directly over the dishwasher nozzle and it being 8" away. There's
probably a small temperature differential, too.

I hand-wash my dishes and they drip dry in the open dishwasher.

--
Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu
  #20  
Old January 3rd 14, 05:15 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,440
Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On 2013-12-31, Frnak McKenney wrote:

Are metal-related questions still allowed here? grin!


Yes!

Christmas brunch was wonderful. My sister and I were invited to eat
with a cousin and her family, and the French Toast -- made with slices
of French bread and peach butter -- was delicious.

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".


[ ... ]

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.


Maybe only a quarter of the knives were in regular use and thus
regularly run through the dishwasher.

Sorry that I can't suggest how to fix them.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
 




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