DIYbanter

DIYbanter (https://www.diybanter.com/)
-   Metalworking (https://www.diybanter.com/metalworking/)
-   -   400 Hz (https://www.diybanter.com/metalworking/326323-400-hz.html)

Bob La Londe[_2_] July 21st 11 06:41 PM

400 Hz
 
I have an old Yamaha 2600 watt generator. When I bought it years ago it was
awesome. I was even able to run my compressor off of it in a pinch. It was
clean too. Computers TVs. No issue. I haven't fired it up in several
years, but last year we had a power failure at the house for 3/4 day, and I
tried to run our fridge off of it, The fridge never started. It ran lights
just fine. and I was able to run my table saw or my band saw, but they just
didn't sound right. I pulled out my old Radio Shack meter flipped it to
frequency mode and checked it. Yep 400 hz. This meter very reliabley shows
household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in left field.

Where do I start looking to fix the generator?







Tim Wescott July 21st 11 07:11 PM

400 Hz
 
On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:41:44 -0700, Bob La Londe wrote:

I have an old Yamaha 2600 watt generator. When I bought it years ago it
was awesome. I was even able to run my compressor off of it in a pinch.
It was clean too. Computers TVs. No issue. I haven't fired it up in
several years, but last year we had a power failure at the house for 3/4
day, and I tried to run our fridge off of it, The fridge never started.
It ran lights just fine. and I was able to run my table saw or my band
saw, but they just didn't sound right. I pulled out my old Radio Shack
meter flipped it to frequency mode and checked it. Yep 400 hz. This
meter very reliabley shows household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out
in left field.

Where do I start looking to fix the generator?


Is it an inverter model? If it isn't, then it's been 400Hz all along.
If it is, then somehow the inverter board has gotten the notion into it's
little electronic head that you want 400Hz (it must have been designed in
as an option for avionics use).

Whether it's a processor that's just gone completely wonky, or a jumper
that fell out (or got shorted from age and corrosion), or what -- I
dunno. A new inverter board is probably the best answer, but if you're
handy with electronics then a schematic, some careful measurements, and
thinking until elbow grease drips out your ears may lead to a solution.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

Dave__67 July 21st 11 11:57 PM

400 Hz
 
On Jul 21, 12:41*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have an old Yamaha 2600 watt generator. *When I bought it years ago it was
awesome. *I was even able to run my compressor off of it in a pinch. *It was
clean too. *Computers TVs. *No issue. *I haven't fired it up in several
years, but last year we had a power failure at the house for 3/4 day, and I
tried to run our fridge off of it, The fridge never started. *It ran lights
just fine. and I was able to run my table saw or my band saw, but they just
didn't sound right. *I pulled out my old Radio Shack meter flipped it to
frequency mode and checked it. *Yep 400 hz. *This meter very reliabley shows
household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in left field.

Where do I start looking to fix the generator?


It could be it is still 60Hz, but an extremely crappy or dirty
waveform is tricking the meter. That might change the diagnosis/
troubleshooting procedure.


Dave

PrecisionmachinisT July 22nd 11 02:20 AM

400 Hz
 

"Dave__67" wrote in message
...
On Jul 21, 12:41 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have an old Yamaha 2600 watt generator. When I bought it years ago it
was
awesome. I was even able to run my compressor off of it in a pinch. It was
clean too. Computers TVs. No issue. I haven't fired it up in several
years, but last year we had a power failure at the house for 3/4 day, and
I
tried to run our fridge off of it, The fridge never started. It ran lights
just fine. and I was able to run my table saw or my band saw, but they
just
didn't sound right. I pulled out my old Radio Shack meter flipped it to
frequency mode and checked it. Yep 400 hz. This meter very reliabley shows
household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in left field.

Where do I start looking to fix the generator?


It could be it is still 60Hz, but an extremely crappy or dirty
waveform is tricking the meter. That might change the diagnosis/
troubleshooting procedure.

Dave

=========

I keep an old telechron electric clock around just for this purpose.




Josepi[_19_] July 22nd 11 02:45 AM

400 Hz
 
A crappy waveform would usually yield a frequency multiple of the base
frequency, though. 400Hz doesn't divide by 60 well or by 120Hz either.

400 Hz was a very common frequency used in avionics, especially on the
planes.

Open the beast up and look for a jumper or loose wiring. A careful look may
reveal something, if only some printing on the PCB card to indicate make,
model, freq or other spec.

All this assumes your engine hasn't gone crazy in speed to do this. I think
you would notice it screaming, if that was the case.

-----------


"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:tYudncg0aOnWX7XTnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@scnresearch. com...
It could be it is still 60Hz, but an extremely crappy or dirty
waveform is tricking the meter. That might change the diagnosis/
troubleshooting procedure.


[email protected] July 22nd 11 04:44 AM

400 Hz
 
On Jul 21, 5:57*pm, Dave__67 wrote:
++
I was able to run my table saw or my band saw, but they just
didn't sound right. *I pulled out my old Radio Shack meter flipped it to
frequency mode and checked it. *Yep 400 hz. *This meter very reliabley shows
household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in left field.



It could be it is still 60Hz, but an extremely crappy or dirty
waveform is tricking the meter. That might change the diagnosis/
troubleshooting procedure.

Dave

The fact that you could run your table saw and band saw, make it
unlikely that it was really 400 hz. The saws would be running at
about 7 times their normal speed if it were really 400 hz.

Dan


Michael A. Terrell July 22nd 11 07:07 AM

400 Hz
 

" wrote:

On Jul 21, 5:57 pm, Dave__67 wrote:
++
I was able to run my table saw or my band saw, but they just
didn't sound right. I pulled out my old Radio Shack meter flipped it to
frequency mode and checked it. Yep 400 hz. This meter very reliabley shows
household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in left field.



It could be it is still 60Hz, but an extremely crappy or dirty
waveform is tricking the meter. That might change the diagnosis/
troubleshooting procedure.

Dave

The fact that you could run your table saw and band saw, make it
unlikely that it was really 400 hz. The saws would be running at
about 7 times their normal speed if it were really 400 hz.



They may have universal motors. If not, they would definitely run
fast, if at all. The fridge has a starting capacitor, and needs
something very close to 60 HZ to start and run. He needs to put a
resistive load on the generator and recheck the frequency. Also, it
should tell the frequency on the name plate.


--
It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

John G July 22nd 11 07:38 AM

400 Hz
 
Michael A. Terrell was thinking very hard :
" wrote:

On Jul 21, 5:57 pm, Dave__67 wrote:
++
I was able to run my table saw or my band saw, but they just
didn't sound right. I pulled out my old Radio Shack meter flipped it to
frequency mode and checked it. Yep 400 hz. This meter very reliabley
shows household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in left field.


It could be it is still 60Hz, but an extremely crappy or dirty
waveform is tricking the meter. That might change the diagnosis/
troubleshooting procedure.

Dave

The fact that you could run your table saw and band saw, make it
unlikely that it was really 400 hz. The saws would be running at
about 7 times their normal speed if it were really 400 hz.



They may have universal motors. If not, they would definitely run
fast, if at all. The fridge has a starting capacitor, and needs
something very close to 60 HZ to start and run. He needs to put a
resistive load on the generator and recheck the frequency. Also, it
should tell the frequency on the name plate.


Would not a scope do a much better job of giving the real answer? :-Z

--
John G



[email protected] July 22nd 11 01:44 PM

400 Hz
 
On Jul 22, 1:38*am, John G wrote:

Would not *a scope do a much better job of giving the real answer? :-Z

--
John G


Yes it would. I did not bother to recommend that as I figured if he
had access to a scope, he would not have posted here.

Dan


Michael A. Terrell July 22nd 11 05:51 PM

400 Hz
 

John G wrote:

Michael A. Terrell was thinking very hard :
" wrote:

On Jul 21, 5:57 pm, Dave__67 wrote:
++
I was able to run my table saw or my band saw, but they just
didn't sound right. I pulled out my old Radio Shack meter flipped it to
frequency mode and checked it. Yep 400 hz. This meter very reliabley
shows household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in left field.


It could be it is still 60Hz, but an extremely crappy or dirty
waveform is tricking the meter. That might change the diagnosis/
troubleshooting procedure.

Dave
The fact that you could run your table saw and band saw, make it
unlikely that it was really 400 hz. The saws would be running at
about 7 times their normal speed if it were really 400 hz.



They may have universal motors. If not, they would definitely run
fast, if at all. The fridge has a starting capacitor, and needs
something very close to 60 HZ to start and run. He needs to put a
resistive load on the generator and recheck the frequency. Also, it
should tell the frequency on the name plate.


Would not a scope do a much better job of giving the real answer? :-Z



As long as he knows how to use it, and doesn't try to power it from
that generator. :)


--
It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

Leon Fisk July 22nd 11 08:37 PM

400 Hz
 
On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:41:44 -0700
"Bob La Londe" wrote:

I have an old Yamaha 2600 watt generator. When I bought it years ago it was
awesome. I was even able to run my compressor off of it in a pinch. It was
clean too. Computers TVs. No issue. I haven't fired it up in several
years, but last year we had a power failure at the house for 3/4 day, and I
tried to run our fridge off of it, The fridge never started. It ran lights
just fine. and I was able to run my table saw or my band saw, but they just
didn't sound right. I pulled out my old Radio Shack meter flipped it to
frequency mode and checked it. Yep 400 hz. This meter very reliabley shows
household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in left field.

Where do I start looking to fix the generator?


Were you using an extension cord? A nice heavy one is usually needed to
run a refrigerator like 12 gauge, maybe 14 gauge if it isn't over maybe
50 feet.

Also check the throttle, make sure it is free to move. Neighbor had a
nice Honda 3500 with a gummed/stuck throttle. It was stuck where it
normally ran without much load. When you tried to load it down the
governor couldn't move it for more power...

As others have mentioned, check the output with a scope. I suspect the
digital meter was getting fooled. From past experience, I wouldn't
trust my Fluke 87 to tell me the frequency on a gen-set output. Might
be right, might not be...

Is this an EF2600?

Looking at the manual he

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....als/EF2600.pdf

It doesn't appear to be an inverter model...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


DoN. Nichols[_2_] July 23rd 11 04:11 AM

400 Hz
 
On 2011-07-22, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:41:44 -0700
"Bob La Londe" wrote:

I have an old Yamaha 2600 watt generator. When I bought it years ago it was
awesome. I was even able to run my compressor off of it in a pinch. It was


[ ... ]

As others have mentioned, check the output with a scope. I suspect the
digital meter was getting fooled. From past experience, I wouldn't
trust my Fluke 87 to tell me the frequency on a gen-set output. Might
be right, might not be...


One other thing, if you can still find one -- is a reed type
power line frequency meter. It has a line of reeds mounted end on with
a white weight on the end towards you. All are surrounded by a coil
connected to the power source, and whichever reed is tuned closest to
the power line frequency will show as a wide blur, while the others will
be pretty close to stationary.

O.K. Here is what one looks like:

http://www.learn-about-electronics.com/frequency-meters.html

I've got one which has two active zones -- one centered around
60 Hz, and one around 50 Hz. Somewhere else I once had one centered
around 400 Hz.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

David Lesher July 23rd 11 05:53 AM

400 Hz
 
"DoN. Nichols" writes:


One other thing, if you can still find one -- is a reed type
power line frequency meter. It has a line of reeds mounted end on with
a white weight on the end towards you. All are surrounded by a coil
connected to the power source, and whichever reed is tuned closest to
the power line frequency will show as a wide blur, while the others will
be pretty close to stationary.


O.K. Here is what one looks like:


http://www.learn-about-electronics.com/frequency-meters.html


I've got one which has two active zones -- one centered around
60 Hz, and one around 50 Hz. Somewhere else I once had one centered
around 400 Hz.


I have one I found literally in the woods. It's centered on... 43 Hz.
I'm open to explanations, cuz I got No Klue....

I have to agree, I think he's being spoofed.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Gunner Asch[_6_] July 23rd 11 06:45 AM

400 Hz
 
On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 14:57:55 -0700 (PDT), Dave__67
wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:41*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have an old Yamaha 2600 watt generator. *When I bought it years ago it was
awesome. *I was even able to run my compressor off of it in a pinch. *It was
clean too. *Computers TVs. *No issue. *I haven't fired it up in several
years, but last year we had a power failure at the house for 3/4 day, and I
tried to run our fridge off of it, The fridge never started. *It ran lights
just fine. and I was able to run my table saw or my band saw, but they just
didn't sound right. *I pulled out my old Radio Shack meter flipped it to
frequency mode and checked it. *Yep 400 hz. *This meter very reliabley shows
household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in left field.

Where do I start looking to fix the generator?


It could be it is still 60Hz, but an extremely crappy or dirty
waveform is tricking the meter. That might change the diagnosis/
troubleshooting procedure.


Dave


A scope really really helps diagnosing this sort of thing, for exactly
that reason.

Btw..if one owns a genny..just a heads up...

I am a "survivalist"..and I do own and maintain a number of generators.
And I have on my checklist for each unit.
".Run for 30-60 minutes every 6 months or MORE" And change the fuel
every year!!

Which I do religiously and have had NO failures in the 35 yrs Ive had
gennies around the homestead(s)

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

Bob La Londe[_2_] September 13th 11 07:54 PM

400 Hz
 
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
I have an old Yamaha 2600 watt generator. When I bought it years ago it
was awesome. I was even able to run my compressor off of it in a pinch.
It was clean too. Computers TVs. No issue. I haven't fired it up in
several years, but last year we had a power failure at the house for 3/4
day, and I tried to run our fridge off of it, The fridge never started.
It ran lights just fine. and I was able to run my table saw or my band
saw, but they just didn't sound right. I pulled out my old Radio Shack
meter flipped it to frequency mode and checked it. Yep 400 hz. This
meter very reliabley shows household 110 at 59-60 so I know its not out in
left field.

Where do I start looking to fix the generator?


Well, I took you guys at the guess that the generator just wasn't generating
very clean power anymore, and plugged in the fridge in my shop during the
recent southwest power debacle. Then I moved the all the soft groceries out
of the house fridge with its fancy computer displays and controls. The
fridge in the shop started up and ran just fine for the duration of the
outage.






Bruce Bergman September 14th 11 05:27 AM

400 Hz
 
The fancy-schmancy electronically controlled fridge in the kitchen probably looked at the incoming power with the voltage was a hair high and the frequency at 63 - 65 Hz because the generator was unloaded, and said "Uh uh, No way. Bad power, Not starting."

The old fashioned mechanical stat fridge in the garage/shop don't care - if it's close, it'll go.

The same thing happens in commercial buildings - they spend big bucks putting the building on a generator, then some of the equipment has a "Clean Power Sensor" and doesn't want to run on it.

Or they connect (bond) the ground to Neutral out in the Genny trailer, and just as they're getting everything in the building started back up the ground loop trips off the GFCI Building Main Breaker because it sees circulating current on the Neutral and Ground.

Hint: You can't do that. Have to hook the Genny up as floating neutral and have the bond where the building GFCI Main expects to see it.

And this was Aggreko and a high-buck Contracting Company hooking it up. And they aren't going to listen to some Bubba off the street - or they'll steal credit for the fix...

Put some load on your generator and look at the frequency again.

-- Bruce --

Howard Eisenhauer[_2_] September 15th 11 01:43 AM

400 Hz
 
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 20:27:57 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Bergman
wrote:


*Snip*
Or they connect (bond) the ground to Neutral out in the Genny trailer, and just as they're getting everything in the building started back up the ground loop trips off the GFCI Building Main Breaker because it sees circulating current on the Neutral and Ground.

Hint: You can't do that. Have to hook the Genny up as floating neutral and have the bond where the building GFCI Main expects to see it.


*Snip*
-- Bruce --


Yup, went through this at work. The operations deprtment went out &
bought some gensets built to provide power at construction sites but
we use them to supply emergency power to comuunications huts. Try to
convince them to open the thing up & disconnect the little green wire
going to the neutral- Ain't Gonna Happen :(

Last I heartd they wanted us to instal 3 pole transfer switches so the
mains neutral/ground interconnect in the sevice entrance would be
disconnected from the system when running on the genny :/ Yeah, sure
it can be done but - WHY?

H.

Martin Eastburn September 15th 11 03:26 AM

400 Hz
 
If the generator is really 400 or is the meter reading harmonics
or noise on the line.

If Air Force it can be 400 so it would drive stuff from or to the
planes. They used 400 cycles because the transformer cores are
smaller and that was a major thing in an airplane.

Ships on the other hand tried 28 cycles but it was to dangerous
as it isn't a skin effect shock - but the accidental shocks / shorts
the 28 dives down to the marrow of the bone and then burns back out.

My dad was bumped into a 28 cycle generator and lost the marrow in
his right arm. Ships wanted it - large transformers were just ballast.
They aborted the project.

Martin

On 9/13/2011 12:54 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
I have an old Yamaha 2600 watt generator. When I bought it years ago
it was awesome. I was even able to run my compressor off of it in a
pinch. It was clean too. Computers TVs. No issue. I haven't fired it
up in several years, but last year we had a power failure at the house
for 3/4 day, and I tried to run our fridge off of it, The fridge never
started. It ran lights just fine. and I was able to run my table saw
or my band saw, but they just didn't sound right. I pulled out my old
Radio Shack meter flipped it to frequency mode and checked it. Yep 400
hz. This meter very reliabley shows household 110 at 59-60 so I know
its not out in left field.

Where do I start looking to fix the generator?


Well, I took you guys at the guess that the generator just wasn't
generating very clean power anymore, and plugged in the fridge in my
shop during the recent southwest power debacle. Then I moved the all the
soft groceries out of the house fridge with its fancy computer displays
and controls. The fridge in the shop started up and ran just fine for
the duration of the outage.







All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:36 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 DIYbanter