I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

By the way, the tank did not explode. I filled it with water, leaving
3/4 inch or so of air above the water. I stuck a torch into it, and
nothing happened, as I predicted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

I wonder if I should, instead, try to use brass brazing material (I
have brass brazing sticks with flux on them).

If I do so, trying to braze a brass fitting with brass braze, would
the brass fitting melt? IOW, is the melting point of the brass brazing
material lower than that of solid brass?

i

"Ignoramus23641" wrote in message
...
I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

By the way, the tank did not explode. I filled it with water, leaving
3/4 inch or so of air above the water. I stuck a torch into it, and
nothing happened, as I predicted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

I wonder if I should, instead, try to use brass brazing material (I
have brass brazing sticks with flux on them).

If I do so, trying to braze a brass fitting with brass braze, would
the brass fitting melt? IOW, is the melting point of the brass brazing
material lower than that of solid brass?


Silver solder would probably be my first choice

--

On 2011-07-14, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Ignoramus23641" wrote in message
...
I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

By the way, the tank did not explode. I filled it with water, leaving
3/4 inch or so of air above the water. I stuck a torch into it, and
nothing happened, as I predicted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

I wonder if I should, instead, try to use brass brazing material (I
have brass brazing sticks with flux on them).

If I do so, trying to braze a brass fitting with brass braze, would
the brass fitting melt? IOW, is the melting point of the brass brazing
material lower than that of solid brass?


Silver solder would probably be my first choice

OK, will try!

15%?

i

"Ignoramus23641" wrote in message
...
On 2011-07-14, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Ignoramus23641" wrote in message
...
I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

By the way, the tank did not explode. I filled it with water, leaving
3/4 inch or so of air above the water. I stuck a torch into it, and
nothing happened, as I predicted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

I wonder if I should, instead, try to use brass brazing material (I
have brass brazing sticks with flux on them).

If I do so, trying to braze a brass fitting with brass braze, would
the brass fitting melt? IOW, is the melting point of the brass brazing
material lower than that of solid brass?


Silver solder would probably be my first choice

OK, will try!

15%?


Damn that was fast !!!

I'm not an expert on brazing, welding etc but probably 15% would be fine

--others might chime in ...

--

"Ignoramus23641" wrote in message
...
I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

By the way, the tank did not explode. I filled it with water, leaving
3/4 inch or so of air above the water. I stuck a torch into it, and
nothing happened, as I predicted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

Try straight hydrochloric acid, in standard muriatic dilution. That's my
last resort for soldering steel.


I wonder if I should, instead, try to use brass brazing material (I
have brass brazing sticks with flux on them).

If I do so, trying to braze a brass fitting with brass braze, would
the brass fitting melt?

Yes. And even silver braze can be tricky with brass. You have to be *very*
careful, or the brass goes "slump...."

IOW, is the melting point of the brass brazing
material lower than that of solid brass?

It depends. Common brass/bronze brazing rod can be straight yellow brass,
although most of them contain other stuff. You want an alloy made for
brazing brass, like Silvaloy, which typically contain some silver. Don't
overheat or you'll be sorry (I have, for example, some very curious-looking
shop-made yellow brass thumbscrews, with brass heads on steel screws.
They're all wobbly from silver-brazing in a hurry and overheating them.)

But you should be able to solder that steel. Have you tried scratch-fluzing
it with a throwaway stainless or plain-steel brush? It works. Then throw
away the brush.

--
Ed Huntress


i

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus23641" wrote in message
...
I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

By the way, the tank did not explode. I filled it with water, leaving
3/4 inch or so of air above the water. I stuck a torch into it, and
nothing happened, as I predicted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

Try straight hydrochloric acid, in standard muriatic dilution. That's my
last resort for soldering steel.


I wonder if I should, instead, try to use brass brazing material (I
have brass brazing sticks with flux on them).

If I do so, trying to braze a brass fitting with brass braze, would
the brass fitting melt?

Yes. And even silver braze can be tricky with brass. You have to be *very*
careful, or the brass goes "slump...."

IOW, is the melting point of the brass brazing
material lower than that of solid brass?

It depends. Common brass/bronze brazing rod can be straight yellow brass,
although most of them contain other stuff. You want an alloy made for
brazing brass, like Silvaloy, which typically contain some silver. Don't
overheat or you'll be sorry (I have, for example, some very
curious-looking shop-made yellow brass thumbscrews, with brass heads on
steel screws. They're all wobbly from silver-brazing in a hurry and
overheating them.)

But you should be able to solder that steel. Have you tried
scratch-fluzing it with a throwaway stainless or plain-steel brush? It
works. Then throw away the brush.



Personally, I think he's probably not getting the steel hot enough because
all the water in the tank is sucking away the heat.

--

On 07/13/2011 08:28 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

id wrote in message
...
I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

By the way, the tank did not explode. I filled it with water, leaving
3/4 inch or so of air above the water. I stuck a torch into it, and
nothing happened, as I predicted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

Try straight hydrochloric acid, in standard muriatic dilution. That's my
last resort for soldering steel.


I wonder if I should, instead, try to use brass brazing material (I
have brass brazing sticks with flux on them).

If I do so, trying to braze a brass fitting with brass braze, would
the brass fitting melt?

Yes. And even silver braze can be tricky with brass. You have to be *very*
careful, or the brass goes "slump...."

IOW, is the melting point of the brass brazing
material lower than that of solid brass?

It depends. Common brass/bronze brazing rod can be straight yellow brass,
although most of them contain other stuff. You want an alloy made for
brazing brass, like Silvaloy, which typically contain some silver. Don't
overheat or you'll be sorry (I have, for example, some very
curious-looking shop-made yellow brass thumbscrews, with brass heads on
steel screws. They're all wobbly from silver-brazing in a hurry and
overheating them.)

But you should be able to solder that steel. Have you tried
scratch-fluzing it with a throwaway stainless or plain-steel brush? It
works. Then throw away the brush.



Personally, I think he's probably not getting the steel hot enough because
all the water in the tank is sucking away the heat.

Or he's overheating it and oxidizing the surface before the solder gets
a chance to stick.

There's three things you need to make sure of before you try to solder
something (or braze, for that matter).

It needs to be clean.

And it needs to be clean.

And, when you get that done, it needs to be clean.

Making sure it's clean doesn't hurt, either.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 07/13/2011 10:32 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:


There's three things you need to make sure of before you try to solder
something (or braze, for that matter).

It needs to be clean.

And it needs to be clean.

And, when you get that done, it needs to be clean.

Making sure it's clean doesn't hurt, either.


"Tin" the steel with solder, all by itself.

Insert brass/copper fitting.

Heat assembled connection and solder it together.


Plus, what Tim said.





technomaNge
--
Learning to ignore things is one of the great paths to inner peace.
-- Robert J. Sawyer

With that in mind, I'd like to thank all those assholes in my killfile.

OK, I am done. I used a steel fitting on steel tank, and brazed that
stuff with brass brazing rod.

The result is not pretty, but completely functional.

i

Ignoramus23641 wrote:
OK, I am done. I used a steel fitting on steel tank, and brazed that
stuff with brass brazing rod.

The result is not pretty, but completely functional.

i

Pics, or it didn't happen!

--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

"Ignoramus23641" wrote in message
...
OK, I am done. I used a steel fitting on steel tank, and brazed that
stuff with brass brazing rod.

The result is not pretty, but completely functional.


Bravely done....

Or, at the least that's what appears to have been printed on the underside
of this here bottlecap.

Cheers...

--

On Jul 14, 12:44*pm, Ignoramus23641 ignoramus23...@NOSPAM.
23641.invalid wrote:
I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.


Easy as - get the right tool for the job, in this case a very large
plumbers soldering iron - the type that was at least 100 watts, with a
1 inch diameter bit in it that was the massive heat reservoir needed.
(There was even a pump up gas fired one for the real heavy duty
stuff.....) Gas axes are iffy, unless your pretty good at brazing - I
aint, but soldering works fine long term on the very few that I have
done.

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Ignoramus23641" wrote in message
...
I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

I'd ask a couple of questions:
-What was there before you started this process? If there was any other
kind of material, some remnants could be fused into the area you are trying
to tin. especially epoxies.

-What kind of solder are you trying currently? If it is soft solder, does
it have a flux core, and, if so what kind? (Acid or Resin)? or ? If you
using "electronic" solder, it may be a resin (rosin core) flux. I'd
certainly go with acid core for this application. I usually keep liquid or
semi liquid fluxes of both type around.

-Can you get tinning to occur on other pieces of sheet metal?

1. The area to be "tinned" needs to be bright and shiny, and it should be
cleaned immediately before attempting to heat/tin it.

2. Use a soft flame. It is very easy to overheat something as thin as a
fuel tank. One instant of too much heat and it's all over, until you
re-prepare the surface.

3. If you go with a silver solder, make sure you get a flux that matches
the temp range of the solder.

4. Years ago, we had to soft solder electrical wires onto steel leads from
high pressure liquid sensors. The only way we could get tinning to occur
was to use sal-ammoniac as a flux(sp?).

I personally still like to use heavy soldering coppers (soldering irons to
the rest of you) for such work. I heat them with a propane torch until the
solder to be used melts freely, then use the heat from them, (properly
tinned, of course) to transfer the heat to the work. You'd be surprised at
how effective this approach is. This way, there is NO chance of overheating
the work.
I like to collect old soldering "irons" for just this use. Note that, in
their day, they were usually sold in pairs. One would be being reheated
while the other one was in use.

Let us know what eventually works out for you.
Pete Stanaitis
---------------

Ignoramus23641 wrote:
OK, I am done. I used a steel fitting on steel tank, and brazed that
stuff with brass brazing rod.

The result is not pretty, but completely functional.

If you didn't have the steel fitting, you could have used the brass and
avoided melting it by brazing a coating on the steel and then soft
soldering the brass fitting to the coating.

Pretty is nice, but functional is much better.

Bob

On Jul 13, 8:44*pm, Ignoramus23641 ignoramus23...@NOSPAM.
23641.invalid wrote:
I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

By the way, the tank did not explode. I filled it with water, leaving
3/4 inch or so of air above the water. I stuck a torch into it, and
nothing happened, as I predicted.

* * * *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY

Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

I wonder if I should, instead, try to use brass brazing material (I
have brass brazing sticks with flux on them).

If I do so, trying to braze a brass fitting with brass braze, would
the brass fitting melt? IOW, is the melting point of the brass brazing
material lower than that of solid brass?

i

For steel, you need acid flux, either the paste stuff or liquid, see
the hardware store. With that much surface area, you're going to need
a LOT of heat, unless you've a got really massive electric iron, a
torch head with a big soldering tip will be needed. For that sort of
work, I favor the old soldering coppers, those were designed for
sheetmetal work. Used a kerosene or gasoline blowtorch to heat them
up, propane works if you've got to be more modern. Applying a torch
flame to solder, even with flux, will give the results you describe,
just rolls up in little balls and doesn't stick. Tin the area first,
then the fitting, then sweat the two together. You have to have more
heat going into the area than flows out. Get the flux residue off
afterwards, it'll rust the steel. Baking soda solution should
neutralize things.

If you're going to try brazing, use a filler with a high silver
content, it'll flow better and not take so much heat to melt it. If
you've got ANY lead-based solder stuck on the parts, you need to get
it off first.

Stan

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:44:55 -0500, Ignoramus23641
wrote:

I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

i

You've already accomplished what you wanted to do, but I'll mention
that I've experienced this before too. What has worked on one or two
occasions was to scratch the solder into the steel with a screwdriver,
coarse steel wool, sandpaper or the tip of the soldering iron while
all was still fluid. That made the solder stick to the steel,
"tinning" the steel first. The flux that I use is made by Kester and
is a pink liquid. I bought it at a yard sale years ago. I have no
idea if it's still available.

RWL

GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:44:55 -0500, Ignoramus23641
wrote:

I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

i

You've already accomplished what you wanted to do, but I'll mention
that I've experienced this before too. What has worked on one or two
occasions was to scratch the solder into the steel with a screwdriver,
coarse steel wool, sandpaper or the tip of the soldering iron while
all was still fluid. That made the solder stick to the steel,
"tinning" the steel first.

A steel or stainless brush is great for this. It also solves a lot of
problems with soldering unknown aluminum alloys.

The flux that I use is made by Kester and
is a pink liquid. I bought it at a yard sale years ago. I have no
idea if it's still available.

RWL

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:44:55 -0500, Ignoramus23641
wrote:

I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.

By the way, the tank did not explode. I filled it with water, leaving
3/4 inch or so of air above the water. I stuck a torch into it, and
nothing happened, as I predicted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

I wonder if I should, instead, try to use brass brazing material (I
have brass brazing sticks with flux on them).

If I do so, trying to braze a brass fitting with brass braze, would
the brass fitting melt? IOW, is the melting point of the brass brazing
material lower than that of solid brass?

i
You need good flux to solder the steel. It needs to be CLEAN
Brazing works a bit better, but it still needs to be CLEAN. There are
quite a few different kinds of "brazing rod" - some of which melt
hotter than others. Same with solders.

And you need to get the METAL hot enough to melt the solder (or braze)
- which requires a LOT of heat if the tank is full of water - which is
why I use CO2.

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 17:26:51 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Ignoramus23641 wrote:
OK, I am done. I used a steel fitting on steel tank, and brazed that
stuff with brass brazing rod.

The result is not pretty, but completely functional.

If you didn't have the steel fitting, you could have used the brass and
avoided melting it by brazing a coating on the steel and then soft
soldering the brass fitting to the coating.

Pretty is nice, but functional is much better.

Bob
"first you make it work, THEN you make it pretty"

GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:44:55 -0500, Ignoramus23641
wrote:

I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

i

You've already accomplished what you wanted to do, but I'll mention
that I've experienced this before too. What has worked on one or two
occasions was to scratch the solder into the steel with a screwdriver,
coarse steel wool, sandpaper or the tip of the soldering iron while
all was still fluid. That made the solder stick to the steel,
"tinning" the steel first. The flux that I use is made by Kester and
is a pink liquid. I bought it at a yard sale years ago. I have no
idea if it's still available.


It's called, 'Ruby Fluid', and was sold for copper plumbing:

http://rubyfluidflux.com/uploads/New_Rubyfluid_Flux_Product_Sheet_with_THEIR_images _2.pdf

http://i53.tinypic.com/2myoshe.jpg


kester has dropped all pluming solders & fluxes from their website,
but that was a common product. It's harder to find these days, since
they switched to lead free solder on water lines, but some stores still
sell small botles of it for under $5.


--
It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:44:55 -0500, Ignoramus23641
wrote:

I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

i

You've already accomplished what you wanted to do, but I'll mention
that I've experienced this before too. What has worked on one or two
occasions was to scratch the solder into the steel with a screwdriver,
coarse steel wool, sandpaper or the tip of the soldering iron while
all was still fluid. That made the solder stick to the steel,
"tinning" the steel first. The flux that I use is made by Kester and
is a pink liquid. I bought it at a yard sale years ago. I have no
idea if it's still available.

It's called, 'Ruby Fluid', and was sold for copper plumbing:

http://rubyfluidflux.com/uploads/New_Rubyfluid_Flux_Product_Sheet_with_THEIR_images _2.pdf

http://i53.tinypic.com/2myoshe.jpg

Kester has dropped all pluming solders & fluxes from their website,
but that was a common product. It's harder to find these days, since
they switched to lead free solder on water lines, but some stores still
sell small botles of it for under $5.


http://www.amazon.com/Ruby-Chemical-1PT-Liquid-Rubyfluid/dp/B000CNMHJW/ref=pd_cp_hi_0
$5.81 for a pint.

--
It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 23:52:58 -0500
Ignoramus23641 wrote:

OK, I am done. I used a steel fitting on steel tank, and brazed that
stuff with brass brazing rod.

The result is not pretty, but completely functional.

i

Did you do a pressure test?

I've had several gas tank braze jobs that looked beautiful but leaked
right through the brazed area. A bit of air pressure, some soapy water
and watch for bubbles...


--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 21:48:54 -0400, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:44:55 -0500, Ignoramus23641
wrote:

I am trying to solder a brass fitting to the fuel tank.


Anyway, the tank, while not exploding, just does not, flat out, accept
solder. The solder just balls on top of the steel, does NOT wet it at
all, and rolls away when exposed to the gases from the propane torch.

I tried a couple of fluxes and nothing helps.

i

You've already accomplished what you wanted to do, but I'll mention
that I've experienced this before too. What has worked on one or two
occasions was to scratch the solder into the steel with a screwdriver,
coarse steel wool, sandpaper or the tip of the soldering iron while
all was still fluid. That made the solder stick to the steel,
"tinning" the steel first. The flux that I use is made by Kester and
is a pink liquid. I bought it at a yard sale years ago. I have no
idea if it's still available.

RWL
Zinc Chloride is about the best for steel. Hydrochloric acid, cut
with as much zinc as it will disolve. It's green and nasty.