I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i

On Jul 11, 3:57*pm, Ignoramus24437 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM.
24437.invalid wrote:
I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i

Steam clean, if possible. Just a little vapor can cause a lot of
trouble. Old-timers would work on one if it was filled with water
first. Inert gas is a good idea, but how can you tell if it's full
enough? With water, there's no doubt.

Stan

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:57:11 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote:

I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i

You're probably safe if it's been empty for a while & the air purged
out. Still the argon or CO2 wouldn't hurt

On steel tanks fittings tend to be soldered rather than brazed,
getting thin sheet metal hot enough to braze but not to cause any
number of problems you don't want is a bit of an art.


H.

I have heard that the gas tank repair places fill it with water, weld it and
then dump it out to dry.

---------

"Ignoramus24437" wrote in message
...

I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:57:11 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote:

I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i
My experience has been good with washing it out with hot soapy water,
then discharging a CO2 extinguisher into the tank to displace all air
and vapours.

Argon would likely work too - it is denser than air at 1.78+ g/l
compared to air at something close to 1.25 g/l at atmospheric pressure
- not as heavy as CO2 at 1.96.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 15:11:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Jul 11, 3:57Â*pm, Ignoramus24437 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM.
24437.invalid wrote:
I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i

Steam clean, if possible. Just a little vapor can cause a lot of
trouble. Old-timers would work on one if it was filled with water
first. Inert gas is a good idea, but how can you tell if it's full
enough? With water, there's no doubt.

Stan
Filling an old tank with water is NO guarantee you will not have a
problem - and if you do, all the water is forced out the filler at
once, under high pressure. Had a friend tried welding the tank for his
53? ford that way - and he caught the tank in the chest as it emptied
itself, forcefully, against the shop wall where he had it stood up. He
ended up flat on his back on the driveway - quite sore. Not sure if it
was just steam, or if some gasoline vapour managed to ignite - but it
appeared to be significantly more powerfull than you would expect of
steam, given the amount of heat involved and the short time the torch
had been applied. He was just trying to solder or braze a pinholed
area (rusted) on the end of the tank, which was pointed up.

You can't get the tank hot enough to solder or braze when it is
TOTALLY full of water, so there had to be enough "air space" to either
trap steam or gasoline vapour.

I'm betting on gasoline trapped in the rust scale at the weak spot in
the tank.

I know a lot of old mechanics who would run exhaust through a tank for
half an hour before attempting to solder, braze, or weld on it.,

With inert gas fill, you can weld at the BOTTOM of the tank, where you
KNOW it is full of (particularly) CO2. Plug the hole as much as
possible to keep all the CO2 from draining out before you finish the
job.

I've repaired oil pans while still on the engine using this method -
any other method is foolhardy (on oil pans)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:05:40 -0400, "Carl Ijames" wrote:

CO2 is the cheapest purge gas. You could mostly fill the tank with water
and then purge the remaining headspace with CO2 gas or get some dry ice and
toss it into the tank and let most of it sublime then start heating. To
remove 95% of the air you need three tank volumes of gas, assuming the
exhaust line is long and skinny to keep air from back-diffusing into the
tank. Without water, 22 gal is 82.5 L so 3x is 247 L. If you have a
flowmeter on your MIG CO2 tank you can crank the flow up and calculate how
long to wait. You will get roughly 1000-fold expansion from the dry ice so
247 L/1000= 0.25 L of dry ice. Winging the density that would be about 500
g or 1.1 lbs, so get two or three pounds and wait until 2/3 or 3/4 has
sublimed then fire up the torch. Again, you want the exhaust line to be
long and skinny, not just the fill neck :-).


3X purge is not required with CO2 because CO2 is so much heavier than
air. Put it in at the bottom of the tank and it will displace all air
and vapour as it fills. 20% more than tank capacity is all that is
really required - but I always play it safe and add a bit more part
way through the job - particularly when brazing oil pans.

And a long and skinny exhaust is NOT required if the filler kneck is
located at the top when filling/welding.
-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames
"Ignoramus24437" wrote in message
m...

I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:11:09 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:57:11 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote:

I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i
Fill it with carbon monoxide from your exhaust pipe on your welder, car
or any other internal combustion system..and while the engine is
running..make the weld.

Its cheap, only requires a shop vac hose and works well enough. But let
it run for an hour or so before starting the weldment.

Or you could simply drill a hole..thread it..and screw in your fitting.
Id suggest a 3/4" fitting, with an adapter to the proper size, if done
this way.

Gunner
In order to get enough CO from the exhaust of either of my cars you'd
need to run it a LONG time. Less than .03 parts per million CO on the
one car, and less than .003 parts per million on the other.
And CO isn't the best purge gas anyway.

Thankfully the concentration of CO2 in engine exhaust is quite high,
and O2 content extremely low - so engine exhaust works reasonably
well. Has the advantage of being HOT so it boils out any gasoline
absorbed into rust scale etc, and trapped in pinch seams etc..

For gas tanks I generally either soldered or brazed repairs and fuel
fittings

Thanks, Clare. I wanted to be sure that any error was on the side of
safety, just like I would if I were the one holding the torch :-).

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames
wrote in message ...

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:05:40 -0400, "Carl Ijames" wrote:

CO2 is the cheapest purge gas. You could mostly fill the tank with water
and then purge the remaining headspace with CO2 gas or get some dry ice and
toss it into the tank and let most of it sublime then start heating. To
remove 95% of the air you need three tank volumes of gas, assuming the
exhaust line is long and skinny to keep air from back-diffusing into the
tank. Without water, 22 gal is 82.5 L so 3x is 247 L. If you have a
flowmeter on your MIG CO2 tank you can crank the flow up and calculate how
long to wait. You will get roughly 1000-fold expansion from the dry ice so
247 L/1000= 0.25 L of dry ice. Winging the density that would be about 500
g or 1.1 lbs, so get two or three pounds and wait until 2/3 or 3/4 has
sublimed then fire up the torch. Again, you want the exhaust line to be
long and skinny, not just the fill neck :-).


3X purge is not required with CO2 because CO2 is so much heavier than
air. Put it in at the bottom of the tank and it will displace all air
and vapour as it fills. 20% more than tank capacity is all that is
really required - but I always play it safe and add a bit more part
way through the job - particularly when brazing oil pans.

And a long and skinny exhaust is NOT required if the filler kneck is
located at the top when filling/welding.
-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames
"Ignoramus24437" wrote in message
m...

I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:11:09 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:57:11 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote:

I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i
Fill it with carbon monoxide from your exhaust pipe on your welder, car
or any other internal combustion system..and while the engine is
running..make the weld.

Its cheap, only requires a shop vac hose and works well enough. But let
it run for an hour or so before starting the weldment.

Or you could simply drill a hole..thread it..and screw in your fitting.
Id suggest a 3/4" fitting, with an adapter to the proper size, if done
this way.

Gunner
In order to get enough CO from the exhaust of either of my cars you'd
need to run it a LONG time. Less than .03 parts per million CO on the
one car, and less than .003 parts per million on the other.
And CO isn't the best purge gas anyway.

In fact, there are muffle-type heat-treating furnaces that use CO for fuel.
It doesn't sound like something I'd fool with.


Thankfully the concentration of CO2 in engine exhaust is quite high,
and O2 content extremely low - so engine exhaust works reasonably
well. Has the advantage of being HOT so it boils out any gasoline
absorbed into rust scale etc, and trapped in pinch seams etc..

That sounds better. d8-)


For gas tanks I generally either soldered or brazed repairs and fuel
fittings

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:20:22 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 11, 5:57Â*pm, Ignoramus24437 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM.
24437.invalid wrote:
I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i

A long time ago, I took a course in Vacuum Tube Technology. I figured
it would a last chance to learn about vacuum tubes. The course was
taught by Renee Rogers who worked at Varian. And had nothing to do
with ordinary vacuum tubes.

Klystrons, BWO's, TWT's, multigun CRT's, Yes. Triodes No.

But what I really learned was how Renee figured out what was causing
production problems. You have a hypothesis and then you put numbers
on it and see if it still could be true.

So how much gasoline vapor do you think could be in the tank. The
equivalent of a drop of gasoline? Two drops of gasoline? Can you
smell any gasoline fumes?

Then how much energy is in say two drops of gasoline? if it was
combined with the optimum amount of air, how much energy would there
be. Then if it were combined with 22 gallons of air? The
flammability limits for 100 octane gasoline is 1.4 % at the lower
limit and 7.6 % at the upper limit ( per Wiki ).

I have not done the math, but my guess is that you have no problem.

Dan


My guess is you are PROBABLY right - but would I bet my life on it?
Nope. There could be several times more gas than you calculated for,
and when that gas evaporated out of the rust/scale holding it in the
tank it could stratify, producing a pretty lethal 14:1 type mix at
exactly the wrong place - producing a fairly serious whollop.

Remember, gasoline containd THREE TIMES the energy per unit of mass as
compared to TNT. (or close enough for our discussion)

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.

I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them,
had liquids in them, and got punished.

In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out
days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any.

If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then,
purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home
vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or
less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned.

The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM
compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume
of air in the tank.

i

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 22:32:55 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:11:09 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:57:11 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote:

I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it.

I want to use it for diesel.

I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which
would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the
fitting in place also.

My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not
explode.

The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks.

Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so
that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would
becmoe quite hot under the sun.

Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it
with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding?

Would purging with argon be a good idea?

i
Fill it with carbon monoxide from your exhaust pipe on your welder, car
or any other internal combustion system..and while the engine is
running..make the weld.

Its cheap, only requires a shop vac hose and works well enough. But let
it run for an hour or so before starting the weldment.

Or you could simply drill a hole..thread it..and screw in your fitting.
Id suggest a 3/4" fitting, with an adapter to the proper size, if done
this way.

Gunner
In order to get enough CO from the exhaust of either of my cars you'd
need to run it a LONG time. Less than .03 parts per million CO on the
one car, and less than .003 parts per million on the other.
And CO isn't the best purge gas anyway.

Thankfully the concentration of CO2 in engine exhaust is quite high,
and O2 content extremely low - so engine exhaust works reasonably
well. Has the advantage of being HOT so it boils out any gasoline
absorbed into rust scale etc, and trapped in pinch seams etc..

For gas tanks I generally either soldered or brazed repairs and fuel
fittings


True enough. I was using CO as simply an old standby. There is very
little O2 in exhaust..so all the stuff that goes into the tank out of
the exhaust hose does a fair job.

But you are correct. I simplified and probably shouldnt have.

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:43:27 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.

I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them,
had liquids in them, and got punished.

In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out
days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any.

If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then,
purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home
vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or
less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned.

The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM
compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume
of air in the tank.

i

Well why not take it out back, away from the house, light up your torch,
tie it to a pole and wave it back and forth in front of the tank
opening, during the heat of the day?

That will prove your case, one way or another.

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

Ignoramus24437 wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.


Go ahead and blow your fool head off.


--
It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Ignoramus24437 wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.


Go ahead and blow your fool head off.

Dibs on the Lincoln welder!!

Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion.

I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning
journey.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:43:27 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.

I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them,
had liquids in them, and got punished.

In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out
days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any.

If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then,
purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home
vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or
less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned.

The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM
compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume
of air in the tank.

You're probably right. But, I'd use the suspenders and belt approach.
No fuel plus no O2 = double safe.

A garden hose from your car exhaust to the tank only take a couple
minutes.

Karl





i

Ignoramus24437 fired this volley in
:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.

I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them,
had liquids in them, and got punished.


Maybe more mis-information than BS.

Gasoline tanks are repaired or modified commercially every day, with
complete safety.

Empty, wash, dry, bake out, and purge with an inert substance.

If you can't smell the gasoline, there's not enough present to form an
explosive mixture.

LLoyd

Ignoramus24437 wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.

I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them,
had liquids in them, and got punished.

In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out
days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any.

If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then,
purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home
vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or
less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned.

The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM
compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume
of air in the tank.


Actualy the common danger of oxyacetylene welding or cutting on a tank
is the potential for accumulating explosive mixtures from the torch
itself. People have blown them selves up cutting on tanks that never
contained any flammable material.

-jim




i

On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Ignoramus24437 wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.


Go ahead and blow your fool head off.

Dibs on the Lincoln welder!!

Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion.

I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning
journey.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl

Gunner


You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was
referring to.

i

On 2011-07-12, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus24437 fired this volley in
:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.

I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them,
had liquids in them, and got punished.


Maybe more mis-information than BS.

Gasoline tanks are repaired or modified commercially every day, with
complete safety.

Empty, wash, dry, bake out, and purge with an inert substance.

If you can't smell the gasoline, there's not enough present to form an
explosive mixture.

I agree with every sentence that you wrote.

i

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote:

On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Ignoramus24437 wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.


Go ahead and blow your fool head off.

Dibs on the Lincoln welder!!

Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion.

I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning
journey.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl

Gunner


You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was
referring to.

i

Of course we did. Did you view the links I provided?

Did I mention I have..had rather..a good friend who blew a lsmall chunk
of a Ford pickup truck gas tank directly through his lower descending
aorta and bled to death within a few seconds, while brazing up a hole
in it and another who suffered 3rd degree burns and razed the garage to
the ground, while doing something similar on a VW gas tank? Both of
course were empty. Jack has had 4 skin grafts so far and he can talk
pretty well these day.

But hey...I guess they were simply victims of B/S and scare talk huh?

Do as you wish Iggy. Frankly..while I like you a lot...Im getting tired
of holding your hand and being told Im an idiot.

So do as I suggested..fire up the torch (forget the long pole) and
direct the flame into the gas tank. Better yet..look into the filler
nozzle while doing so. You can get a really good look and see if its
rusty in there. Really.

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote:

On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Ignoramus24437 wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.


Go ahead and blow your fool head off.

Dibs on the Lincoln welder!!

Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion.

I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning
journey.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl

Gunner


You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was
referring to.

i

Of course we did. Did you view the links I provided?

Yes, they were all about tanks full of gasoline when they exploded.

Did I mention I have..had rather..a good friend who blew a lsmall
chunk of a Ford pickup truck gas tank directly through his lower
descending aorta and bled to death within a few seconds, while
brazing up a hole in it and another who suffered 3rd degree burns
and razed the garage to the ground, while doing something similar on
a VW gas tank? Both of course were empty. Jack has had 4 skin
grafts so far and he can talk pretty well these day.

But hey...I guess they were simply victims of B/S and scare talk huh?

No, but like I said, they probably did not observe the precautions.

Do as you wish Iggy. Frankly..while I like you a lot...Im getting tired
of holding your hand and being told Im an idiot.

So do as I suggested..fire up the torch (forget the long pole) and
direct the flame into the gas tank. Better yet..look into the filler
nozzle while doing so. You can get a really good look and see if its
rusty in there. Really.

I will do just that and will video tape it too

i

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:43:27 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.

I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them,
had liquids in them, and got punished.

In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out
days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any.

If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then,
purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home
vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or
less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned.

The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM
compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume
of air in the tank.

i
I had to solder a couple holes in my little Gibson tractor tank. It
holds about 1/2 gallon. The tank has been filled with gas for over 50
years. I washed it out with acetone, then soap and water. After drying
it a few days I started to heat the tank to solder it. I saw what
looked like maybe a little steam coming out of the filler. When I
waved the flame at it it caught fire for a sec. No explosion though.
So I think that all the years of soaking in gas left some varnish
inside that gasified from the heat.
Eric

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:59:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote:

On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote:

On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Ignoramus24437 wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.


Go ahead and blow your fool head off.

Dibs on the Lincoln welder!!

Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion.

I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning
journey.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl

Gunner


You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was
referring to.

i

Of course we did. Did you view the links I provided?

Yes, they were all about tanks full of gasoline when they exploded.

So you are admitting to not having viewed any of the links. Pity.

Did I mention I have..had rather..a good friend who blew a lsmall
chunk of a Ford pickup truck gas tank directly through his lower
descending aorta and bled to death within a few seconds, while
brazing up a hole in it and another who suffered 3rd degree burns
and razed the garage to the ground, while doing something similar on
a VW gas tank? Both of course were empty. Jack has had 4 skin
grafts so far and he can talk pretty well these day.

But hey...I guess they were simply victims of B/S and scare talk huh?

No, but like I said, they probably did not observe the precautions.

Actually...they did. Not well enough...shrug....

Do as you wish Iggy. Frankly..while I like you a lot...Im getting tired
of holding your hand and being told Im an idiot.

So do as I suggested..fire up the torch (forget the long pole) and
direct the flame into the gas tank. Better yet..look into the filler
nozzle while doing so. You can get a really good look and see if its
rusty in there. Really.

I will do just that and will video tape it too

i

Good for you Lad! Ballsy fellow! Onward!!!

Dibs on your SA-200

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

Ignoramus15459 wrote:

On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Ignoramus24437 wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.


Go ahead and blow your fool head off.

Dibs on the Lincoln welder!!

Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion.

I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning
journey.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl

Gunner


You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was
referring to.

i



Like I said, blow yourself up. I had a 30 gallon tank from a '73
Chevy Step Van blow up on me. It had been empty for over two years. It
was full of water, but it jumped five feet in the air and sprayed hot
water all over me and a neighbor. It peeled most of the crimped seam
apart, and destroyed the tank
--
It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:

It had been empty for over two years. It
was full of water, but it jumped five feet in the air and sprayed hot
water all over me and a neighbor. It peeled most of the crimped seam
apart, and destroyed the tank
--


Then, Michael, it wasn't gasoline fumes, it was welding gasses -- or....

if it was "full of water", how, exactly, did you get a volume of gas in
there to explode? Could it have been steam pressure, which you
inadvertently caused by trying to cut or weld on a part immersed in
water?

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:

It had been empty for over two years. It
was full of water, but it jumped five feet in the air and sprayed hot
water all over me and a neighbor. It peeled most of the crimped seam
apart, and destroyed the tank

Then, Michael, it wasn't gasoline fumes, it was welding gasses -- or....

if it was "full of water", how, exactly, did you get a volume of gas in
there to explode? Could it have been steam pressure, which you
inadvertently caused by trying to cut or weld on a part immersed in
water?


It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under
water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which
wasn't visible before it blew. I talked to a couple people who repaired
tanks before I tried to repair it, and was assured that nothing could go
wrong. They just stood there and scratched their heads after they saw
the results. This was in a steel town, where professional welders and
machine shops were thick as thieves.


--
It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:


It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under
water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which
wasn't visible before it blew.

Well... "sitting on empty" and "empty, and open to the air" for two years
are two different things.

I assume (unless welding gasses were the culprit) that there had not been
adequate ventilation of the tank.

I've modified numerous "pulled from service" gasoline and propane tanks
(of course, emptied, dried, purged, and filled with inert stuff before
work), and not had any even _minor_ malfunctions. And usually, all that
folderol takes longer than the modifications do.

I deal with a surprisingly high-tech welding/cutting shop in our little
town of 2000 that welds repairs on RV gas tanks as a regular part of
their business, and they don't have those problems, either.

If it's gasses that are your problem, a _slightly_ oxidizing flame is
your friend -- no free fuel, either in the form of gas or air-suspended
particulate carbon, gets into the tank by accident.

As part of my practice on propane tanks, I also wash out the mercaptan,
which _can_ form an explosive mixture. (household lye converts it to
other stuff which can be washed out with water)

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:


It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under
water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which
wasn't visible before it blew.

Well... "sitting on empty" and "empty, and open to the air" for two years
are two different things.


Empty, with no gas cap for over two years. also, there was a seven
inch long stress crack in the bottom that would leak, until there was
less than a gallon in the tank over a weekend. That was why the truck
sat unused for over four years, and a little over two with no gas cap.
I took the locking cap for another truck I owned.


I assume (unless welding gasses were the culprit) that there had not been
adequate ventilation of the tank.


The only thing available to work with was a cheap SolidOx torch, with
a small bottle of propane.


I've modified numerous "pulled from service" gasoline and propane tanks
(of course, emptied, dried, purged, and filled with inert stuff before
work), and not had any even _minor_ malfunctions. And usually, all that
folderol takes longer than the modifications do.

I deal with a surprisingly high-tech welding/cutting shop in our little
town of 2000 that welds repairs on RV gas tanks as a regular part of
their business, and they don't have those problems, either.

If it's gasses that are your problem, a _slightly_ oxidizing flame is
your friend -- no free fuel, either in the form of gas or air-suspended
particulate carbon, gets into the tank by accident.

As part of my practice on propane tanks, I also wash out the mercaptan,
which _can_ form an explosive mixture. (household lye converts it to
other stuff which can be washed out with water)

LLoyd


--
It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

Gunner Asch writes:


Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion.

I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning
journey.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl

We covered such in firefighting class when I worked on a pipeline.
You use a different tactic on BLEVE's:

a) Recognize BLEVE
b) $^%&%$& RUN
.....

We welded tanks/pipelines all the time.

1) Jethero shoots a hole in same.

2) Pound in rubber plug.

3) Let dry {~week}

4) Ensure either good line rate, or sufficent tank fill above weld.
[~2 ft comes to mind; less if Diesel than gas.]

5) Lay patch atop plug {can't recall size but say 8" dia.]

6) Weld in place.

Of course, these were slightly larger than the average car's
tank; say 60' diameter and 40' tall. And there was NO problem
welding to a wall of say 0.375" thick.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 2011-07-12, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:


It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under
water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which
wasn't visible before it blew.

Well... "sitting on empty" and "empty, and open to the air" for two years
are two different things.

Exactly.

The tank may have had little usable fuel, but was closed and trapped
the remainder and the fumes.

In my case, the tank is dry, the inlet is open, and I turned the tank
over so that it sits outside, under the sun, with the open inlet
pointing down.

i

Ignoramus24437 wrote:
I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.

I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them,
had liquids in them, and got punished.

In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out
days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any.

I'd love to read about your explosion in the paper and all, but vapors are
exactly what you need to be worried about, they're what explodes, not the
liquid itself.

On 2011-07-13, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus24437 wrote:
I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.

I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them,
had liquids in them, and got punished.

In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out
days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any.

I'd love to read about your explosion in the paper and all, but vapors are
exactly what you need to be worried about, they're what explodes, not the
liquid itself.

Here's the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY

i

You're quite the egomaniac.. it sounded as though there was a child standing
nearby, who could've been injured and/or disfigured if you had been wrong,
or if the torch had malfunctioned.

I've had several types of torches nearly go out and suddenly relight at full
force when the tip is near a closed pocket or in a corner and then
withdrawn..

pathetic

--
WB
..........


"Ignoramus23641" wrote in message
...

Here's the

On 2011-07-14, Wild_Bill wrote:
You're quite the egomaniac.. it sounded as though there was a child standing
nearby, who could've been injured and/or disfigured if you had been wrong,
or if the torch had malfunctioned.

I've had several types of torches nearly go out and suddenly relight at full
force when the tip is near a closed pocket or in a corner and then
withdrawn..

Hint: the video was not the first time I tried it.

i

pathetic

Hint: I expected that and it doesn't change the situation.

--
WB
..........


"Ignoramus27403" wrote in message
...
On 2011-07-14, Wild_Bill wrote:
You're quite the egomaniac.. it sounded as though there was a child
standing
nearby, who could've been injured and/or disfigured if you had been
wrong,
or if the torch had malfunctioned.

I've had several types of torches nearly go out and suddenly relight at
full
force when the tip is near a closed pocket or in a corner and then
withdrawn..

Hint: the video was not the first time I tried it.

i

pathetic

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:48:30 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:59:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote:

On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote:

On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Ignoramus24437 wrote:

I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.


Go ahead and blow your fool head off.

Dibs on the Lincoln welder!!

Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion.

I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning
journey.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl

Gunner


You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was
referring to.

i

Of course we did. Did you view the links I provided?

Yes, they were all about tanks full of gasoline when they exploded.

So you are admitting to not having viewed any of the links. Pity.

Did I mention I have..had rather..a good friend who blew a lsmall
chunk of a Ford pickup truck gas tank directly through his lower
descending aorta and bled to death within a few seconds, while
brazing up a hole in it and another who suffered 3rd degree burns
and razed the garage to the ground, while doing something similar on
a VW gas tank? Both of course were empty. Jack has had 4 skin
grafts so far and he can talk pretty well these day.

But hey...I guess they were simply victims of B/S and scare talk huh?

No, but like I said, they probably did not observe the precautions.

Actually...they did. Not well enough...shrug....

Do as you wish Iggy. Frankly..while I like you a lot...Im getting tired
of holding your hand and being told Im an idiot.

So do as I suggested..fire up the torch (forget the long pole) and
direct the flame into the gas tank. Better yet..look into the filler
nozzle while doing so. You can get a really good look and see if its
rusty in there. Really.

I will do just that and will video tape it too

i

Good for you Lad! Ballsy fellow! Onward!!!

Dibs on your SA-200

Gunner
If he's pointed the right direction you might not even need to have it
delivered!!!

Anyone who cuts or welds on a container that has EVER contained
gosoline or other flamables without taking adequate precautions is a
fool and an idiot.
And "adequate" does not mean "barely adequate", or "should be good
enough".

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:22:09 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
om:

It had been empty for over two years. It
was full of water, but it jumped five feet in the air and sprayed hot
water all over me and a neighbor. It peeled most of the crimped seam
apart, and destroyed the tank
--


Then, Michael, it wasn't gasoline fumes, it was welding gasses -- or....

if it was "full of water", how, exactly, did you get a volume of gas in
there to explode? Could it have been steam pressure, which you
inadvertently caused by trying to cut or weld on a part immersed in
water?

LLoyd
Nope - it was gasoline vapour. Had it happen to a friend on his 50's
ford tank. He'd flushed it with water, let it sit in the sun, and
filled it with water again - stood it against the shop wall and
started to braze it. It heaved and buckled and knocked him on his ass
on the other side of the driveway.
They figured out there was gasoline "locked in" to the rust where he
was doing the repair - perhaps 1/10 of a teaspoonfull at the very most
- and when he heated it, the rust was reduced to iron and oxygen -
which mixed with the gasoline with extremely un-expected and violent
results.

DON'T DO IT.

If the tank had been full of CO2, Nitrogen, or Argon (I prefer CO2),
the oxygen and gasoline vapours would have dissipated into the CO2,
instead of being trapped and concentrated - and combustion would have
been IMPOSSIBLE.

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:37:57 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote:

On 2011-07-12, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:


It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under
water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which
wasn't visible before it blew.

Well... "sitting on empty" and "empty, and open to the air" for two years
are two different things.

Exactly.

The tank may have had little usable fuel, but was closed and trapped
the remainder and the fumes.

In my case, the tank is dry, the inlet is open, and I turned the tank
over so that it sits outside, under the sun, with the open inlet
pointing down.

i
Trust me Iggy - it is STILL a potential bomb. What does a CO2 fire
extinguisher refil cost?????
Fill the tank with a shot of CO2 untill you see it flowing out the
top (as a fog). Let it sit, filler up, for a moment, then add a bit
more. Weld with filler up, and new fitting snugly in the hole, and
plugged so the CO2 does not all flow out through the fitting as you
weld/braze/solder.. If the job takes very long - give it another shot
part way through - and you can GUARANTEE you will be here, and in one
piece, the next day.. REmember, CO2 is almost twice as dense as air -
but not NEARLY as dense as you if you weld that tank without taking
"proper" precautions.