Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Ford NAA tractor...


From what I've read, the Jubilee / NAA is pretty different hydraulics
wise from an 8N. I know they did away with the three engine style piston
rings and replaced them with O-rings and a leather wiper which is now
replaced with a rubber wiper. Isn't the Jubilee / NAA when the lift
position control and draft control showed up vs. basic manual up/down
control?


You found a hole in my old ford knowledge. My NAA is the backhoe
tractor. While I've had this tractor and used it hard for over twenty
years, I've never once had need for the tractor's hydraulic system.
Sounds like your NAA is the same as the lift assembly on the Ford 860
with the exception of no leather.

I'm glad to see you don't have the 8N lift. Not one of ford's best
designs. But, keep in mind, ford was the first tractor made with a
true three point system.

Karl

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Default Ford NAA tractor...

On Fri, 03 Sep 2010 17:15:22 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:

I stuck to hydraulic pump back on the tractor today to see what the
symptoms are. There appears to be some fluid flow, and the lift will
track the position control lever very slowly as long as there isn't any
weight on them. If I stand on the lift arms they go back down, even with
the position control up. It would appear that the lift piston probably
needs new seals.


Springs die and leave spools in the wrong position, too. Rebuilding
the control will solve it.


I pulled the pump back off and opened it up and it looks ok. The pistons
don't seem to have any notable scoring, the valve balls look good and
the valve seats look ok as well.


You didn't mention springs. They can be crucial to proper workings.


I pulled the line set off so I can clean them out, and I guess I'll be
pulling the lift cover so I can tear into that and also clean out the
hydraulic sump fully. I did drain the fluid after the test and it didn't
look bad, probably fairly recent. It will be replaced with UTF once I do
seals on the piston and anything else I find wrong.

Also, I can't seem to budge the test plug, which is going to make it
rather difficult to install a pressure gauge to see what pressure I'm
getting.

Thoughts?


Quick, hot touch of an o/a torch flame on the housing next to the plug
usually works. Got hex socket or square end plug? The right tool and
a direct line to get at the plug always help.

Sometimes it's quicker to make (or have your hyd line builder (NAPA?)
make) up a quick inline test hose. Most of my work has been on
automotive power steering and brakes, but I've watched a whole lot of
equipment being repaired. (Me strong like ox, smart like trak-tor)

--
Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
-- Storm Jameson
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Default Ford NAA tractor...

Karl Townsend wrote:
From what I've read, the Jubilee / NAA is pretty different hydraulics
wise from an 8N. I know they did away with the three engine style piston
rings and replaced them with O-rings and a leather wiper which is now
replaced with a rubber wiper. Isn't the Jubilee / NAA when the lift
position control and draft control showed up vs. basic manual up/down
control?


You found a hole in my old ford knowledge. My NAA is the backhoe
tractor. While I've had this tractor and used it hard for over twenty
years, I've never once had need for the tractor's hydraulic system.
Sounds like your NAA is the same as the lift assembly on the Ford 860
with the exception of no leather.

I'm glad to see you don't have the 8N lift. Not one of ford's best
designs. But, keep in mind, ford was the first tractor made with a
true three point system.

Karl


The NAA uses the O-rings and wiper like the later 600 and 800 series.
Also has the better draft control.

Ford didn't design the three point they used. It was Harry Ferguson who
developed a working 3-point. Ford had a handshake deal to use the system
and then refused to pay for them once he started selling tractors.

Harry opened his own factory in England and the TE-20 was the result.
Then he opened a plant in the US and the TO series was born. This was
direct competition to Ford.

I have owned most of both sides of the isle. Ford 8N, 9N, 2N, a 600 and
800 series, plus a couple TO-20s, a TO-35, 35 Deluxe and some of the
larger ones as well. Most were good tractors if you used them in the
envelope they were intended for.

--
Steve W.
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Default Ford NAA tractor...

On Sat, 04 Sep 2010 01:12:07 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:
From what I've read, the Jubilee / NAA is pretty different hydraulics
wise from an 8N. I know they did away with the three engine style piston
rings and replaced them with O-rings and a leather wiper which is now
replaced with a rubber wiper. Isn't the Jubilee / NAA when the lift
position control and draft control showed up vs. basic manual up/down
control?


You found a hole in my old ford knowledge. My NAA is the backhoe
tractor. While I've had this tractor and used it hard for over twenty
years, I've never once had need for the tractor's hydraulic system.
Sounds like your NAA is the same as the lift assembly on the Ford 860
with the exception of no leather.

I'm glad to see you don't have the 8N lift. Not one of ford's best
designs. But, keep in mind, ford was the first tractor made with a
true three point system.

Karl


The NAA uses the O-rings and wiper like the later 600 and 800 series.
Also has the better draft control.


I wonder if this is true of all NAAs. My machine looks pure 8N on the
back half. no live PTO and the lift assembly sure looks 8N on the
exterior. I'm thinking for my early NAA, Ford just redesigned the
engine to overhead valve and live hydraulics. Then they went to work
on the back half and put in live PTO (I've seen NAAs with this) and
draft control on the lift assembly.

Of course, its also possible that somebody took the better lift
assembly off my tractor and stuck an 8N unit on. After all, its a
backhoe and the only function of the lift assembly is to hold the
tractor seat in place.

Ford didn't design the three point they used. It was Harry Ferguson who
developed a working 3-point. Ford had a handshake deal to use the system
and then refused to pay for them once he started selling tractors.

Harry opened his own factory in England and the TE-20 was the result.
Then he opened a plant in the US and the TO series was born. This was
direct competition to Ford.


I learned something today. Don't happen often for an old fart.


I have owned most of both sides of the isle. Ford 8N, 9N, 2N, a 600 and
800 series, plus a couple TO-20s, a TO-35, 35 Deluxe and some of the
larger ones as well. Most were good tractors if you used them in the
envelope they were intended for.


I've never touched a 2N or the Ferguson. I think my favorite of the
bunch is the Ford 860. Plenty of power, live hydraulics and PTO, very
simple reliable maintainable design. I've also had the newer 2000 both
4 and 3 cylinder and an even newer 3600. These machines are not as
rugged.

Karl
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Default Ford NAA tractor...


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Sat, 04 Sep 2010 01:12:07 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:
From what I've read, the Jubilee / NAA is pretty different hydraulics
wise from an 8N. I know they did away with the three engine style piston
rings and replaced them with O-rings and a leather wiper which is now
replaced with a rubber wiper. Isn't the Jubilee / NAA when the lift
position control and draft control showed up vs. basic manual up/down
control?

You found a hole in my old ford knowledge. My NAA is the backhoe
tractor. While I've had this tractor and used it hard for over twenty
years, I've never once had need for the tractor's hydraulic system.
Sounds like your NAA is the same as the lift assembly on the Ford 860
with the exception of no leather.

I'm glad to see you don't have the 8N lift. Not one of ford's best
designs. But, keep in mind, ford was the first tractor made with a
true three point system.

Karl


The NAA uses the O-rings and wiper like the later 600 and 800 series.
Also has the better draft control.


I wonder if this is true of all NAAs. My machine looks pure 8N on the
back half. no live PTO and the lift assembly sure looks 8N on the
exterior. I'm thinking for my early NAA, Ford just redesigned the
engine to overhead valve and live hydraulics. Then they went to work
on the back half and put in live PTO (I've seen NAAs with this) and
draft control on the lift assembly.


The lift control for the Jubilee / NAA has the position control sector
lever on the right, a lever inside a ~90 degree cage, with an adjustable
position stop that runs in a slot in the cage. The travel of the lever
in the cage represents the travel of the lift and wherever you position
the lever, the lift moves to the matching position. Pretty sophisticated
for a 1953 tractor.


Of course, its also possible that somebody took the better lift
assembly off my tractor and stuck an 8N unit on. After all, its a
backhoe and the only function of the lift assembly is to hold the
tractor seat in place.


I suspect that it's parts swapping in action. A 57 year old work tractor
is likely to have seen a lot of parts changing.

Of course I first saw an NAA just a few weeks ago, and have been reading
everything I can find on them (Yesterday's Tractor, N Club, etc.).


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Default Ford NAA tractor...


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 03 Sep 2010 17:15:22 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:

I stuck to hydraulic pump back on the tractor today to see what the
symptoms are. There appears to be some fluid flow, and the lift will
track the position control lever very slowly as long as there isn't any
weight on them. If I stand on the lift arms they go back down, even with
the position control up. It would appear that the lift piston probably
needs new seals.


Springs die and leave spools in the wrong position, too. Rebuilding
the control will solve it.


Suspect not, since the position control does work, which means that
spool is working properly. The movement is just very slow and the lift
has no strength.

Relief valve stuck open perhaps so it can't develop pressure, perhaps
the pump having suction side problems, and likely still bad seals on the
piston.


I pulled the pump back off and opened it up and it looks ok. The pistons
don't seem to have any notable scoring, the valve balls look good and
the valve seats look ok as well.


You didn't mention springs. They can be crucial to proper workings.


They seemed good as well, both the valve ball springs and the piston
return springs. Swash plate doing it's thing smoothly as well.


I pulled the line set off so I can clean them out, and I guess I'll be
pulling the lift cover so I can tear into that and also clean out the
hydraulic sump fully. I did drain the fluid after the test and it didn't
look bad, probably fairly recent. It will be replaced with UTF once I do
seals on the piston and anything else I find wrong.

Also, I can't seem to budge the test plug, which is going to make it
rather difficult to install a pressure gauge to see what pressure I'm
getting.

Thoughts?


Quick, hot touch of an o/a torch flame on the housing next to the plug
usually works. Got hex socket or square end plug? The right tool and
a direct line to get at the plug always help.


I'm going to track down an Allen drive socket and perhaps use it on my
impact wrench to help break the plug free without lifting the tractor
off the jack stands. Also have O/A torch if needed.


Sometimes it's quicker to make (or have your hyd line builder (NAPA?)
make) up a quick inline test hose. Most of my work has been on
automotive power steering and brakes, but I've watched a whole lot of
equipment being repaired. (Me strong like ox, smart like trak-tor)


It's a hardline set with O-Ring bolted flanges, not so easy to do an
inline,


--
Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
-- Storm Jameson

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Default Ford NAA tractor...

On Sat, 04 Sep 2010 09:29:28 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 03 Sep 2010 17:15:22 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:

I stuck to hydraulic pump back on the tractor today to see what the
symptoms are. There appears to be some fluid flow, and the lift will
track the position control lever very slowly as long as there isn't any
weight on them. If I stand on the lift arms they go back down, even with
the position control up. It would appear that the lift piston probably
needs new seals.


Springs die and leave spools in the wrong position, too. Rebuilding
the control will solve it.


Suspect not, since the position control does work, which means that
spool is working properly. The movement is just very slow and the lift
has no strength.


Yeah, I guess if the control levers all feel right, the springs and
spools are likely to be in their proper position and loose.


Relief valve stuck open perhaps so it can't develop pressure, perhaps
the pump having suction side problems, and likely still bad seals on the
piston.


Prolly so.


I pulled the pump back off and opened it up and it looks ok. The pistons
don't seem to have any notable scoring, the valve balls look good and
the valve seats look ok as well.


You didn't mention springs. They can be crucial to proper workings.


They seemed good as well, both the valve ball springs and the piston
return springs. Swash plate doing it's thing smoothly as well.



I pulled the line set off so I can clean them out, and I guess I'll be
pulling the lift cover so I can tear into that and also clean out the
hydraulic sump fully. I did drain the fluid after the test and it didn't
look bad, probably fairly recent. It will be replaced with UTF once I do
seals on the piston and anything else I find wrong.

Also, I can't seem to budge the test plug, which is going to make it
rather difficult to install a pressure gauge to see what pressure I'm
getting.

Thoughts?


Quick, hot touch of an o/a torch flame on the housing next to the plug
usually works. Got hex socket or square end plug? The right tool and
a direct line to get at the plug always help.


I'm going to track down an Allen drive socket and perhaps use it on my
impact wrench to help break the plug free without lifting the tractor
off the jack stands. Also have O/A torch if needed.


Those work great. Large channel locks and a helper to hold the allen
can work on tough plugs. But why do stuck bolts and such always
happen whenever there's no help around? Murphy again?


Sometimes it's quicker to make (or have your hyd line builder (NAPA?)
make) up a quick inline test hose. Most of my work has been on
automotive power steering and brakes, but I've watched a whole lot of
equipment being repaired. (Me strong like ox, smart like trak-tor)


It's a hardline set with O-Ring bolted flanges, not so easy to do an
inline,


Hard lines can limit ya, they can.

--
Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
-- Storm Jameson
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