Argh. Just bent up a landing gear for a model plane. 1/8" "Music wire"
from K&S. Nominally the same thing, except one was the tail-end of an
older piece, and one was brand spanking new.

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.

Any ideas on where I might best get good old fashioned three-foot
straight pieces of music wire? I see that McMaster has it -- in one
foot lengths, and Small Parts has it -- mostly in six foot lengths. I
can deal with the odd length issue, but I'd sure like to order with
confidence that I'm getting something decent, not just the same metallic
noodles that I can get from the local hobby shop.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim Wescott wrote:

Argh. Just bent up a landing gear for a model plane. 1/8" "Music wire"
from K&S. Nominally the same thing, except one was the tail-end of an
older piece, and one was brand spanking new.

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.

Any ideas on where I might best get good old fashioned three-foot
straight pieces of music wire? I see that McMaster has it -- in one
foot lengths, and Small Parts has it -- mostly in six foot lengths. I
can deal with the odd length issue, but I'd sure like to order with
confidence that I'm getting something decent, not just the same metallic
noodles that I can get from the local hobby shop.

McMaster typically specifies the exact characteristics, metal alloy,
etc. for it's items. Suggest giving them a call to see if they can
supply it in 3' or 6' lengths.

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Tim Wescott wrote:

Argh. Just bent up a landing gear for a model plane. 1/8" "Music wire"
from K&S. Nominally the same thing, except one was the tail-end of an
older piece, and one was brand spanking new.

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.

Any ideas on where I might best get good old fashioned three-foot
straight pieces of music wire? I see that McMaster has it -- in one
foot lengths, and Small Parts has it -- mostly in six foot lengths. I
can deal with the odd length issue, but I'd sure like to order with
confidence that I'm getting something decent, not just the same metallic
noodles that I can get from the local hobby shop.

McMaster typically specifies the exact characteristics, metal alloy,
etc. for it's items. Suggest giving them a call to see if they can
supply it in 3' or 6' lengths.

I assume that Tim has a good feel for what's "hard" in 1/8" music wire.
That's the largest legitimate diameter of real music wire, and it's the
softest. Still, it's not soft. I think the ultimate tensile is around
110,000 psi or something like that; the Rc hardness would still be pretty
good, compared to any ordinary plain-carbon steel.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Tim Wescott wrote:

Argh. Just bent up a landing gear for a model plane. 1/8" "Music wire"
from K&S. Nominally the same thing, except one was the tail-end of an
older piece, and one was brand spanking new.

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.

Any ideas on where I might best get good old fashioned three-foot
straight pieces of music wire? I see that McMaster has it -- in one
foot lengths, and Small Parts has it -- mostly in six foot lengths. I
can deal with the odd length issue, but I'd sure like to order with
confidence that I'm getting something decent, not just the same metallic
noodles that I can get from the local hobby shop.

McMaster typically specifies the exact characteristics, metal alloy,
etc. for it's items. Suggest giving them a call to see if they can
supply it in 3' or 6' lengths.

I assume that Tim has a good feel for what's "hard" in 1/8" music wire.
That's the largest legitimate diameter of real music wire, and it's the
softest. Still, it's not soft. I think the ultimate tensile is around
110,000 psi or something like that; the Rc hardness would still be pretty
good, compared to any ordinary plain-carbon steel.

--
Ed Huntress


My guess was low on that tensile strength. 1/8" should be over 200,000 psi.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:01:03 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


I assume that Tim has a good feel for what's "hard" in 1/8" music wire.
That's the largest legitimate diameter of real music wire, and it's the
softest. Still, it's not soft. I think the ultimate tensile is around
110,000 psi or something like that; the Rc hardness would still be pretty
good, compared to any ordinary plain-carbon steel.

That sounds way low. Cold drawn 1045 rounds are nearly that strong.

261 to 288 ksi here...
http://www.precisionbrand.com/Produc....aspx?Catid=48

--
Ned Simmons

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:01:03 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


I assume that Tim has a good feel for what's "hard" in 1/8" music wire.
That's the largest legitimate diameter of real music wire, and it's the
softest. Still, it's not soft. I think the ultimate tensile is around
110,000 psi or something like that; the Rc hardness would still be pretty
good, compared to any ordinary plain-carbon steel.

That sounds way low. Cold drawn 1045 rounds are nearly that strong.

261 to 288 ksi here...
http://www.precisionbrand.com/Produc....aspx?Catid=48

--
Ned Simmons

Yeah, if you caught my correction, the minimum is around 220,000 psi.

--
Ed Huntress

On 07/26/2010 02:01 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete wrote in message
ster.com...

Tim Wescott wrote:

Argh. Just bent up a landing gear for a model plane. 1/8" "Music wire"
from K&S. Nominally the same thing, except one was the tail-end of an
older piece, and one was brand spanking new.

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.

Any ideas on where I might best get good old fashioned three-foot
straight pieces of music wire? I see that McMaster has it -- in one
foot lengths, and Small Parts has it -- mostly in six foot lengths. I
can deal with the odd length issue, but I'd sure like to order with
confidence that I'm getting something decent, not just the same metallic
noodles that I can get from the local hobby shop.

McMaster typically specifies the exact characteristics, metal alloy,
etc. for it's items. Suggest giving them a call to see if they can
supply it in 3' or 6' lengths.

I assume that Tim has a good feel for what's "hard" in 1/8" music wire.
That's the largest legitimate diameter of real music wire, and it's the
softest. Still, it's not soft. I think the ultimate tensile is around
110,000 psi or something like that; the Rc hardness would still be pretty
good, compared to any ordinary plain-carbon steel.

I have a good _feel_ for it, but not a feel that's calibrated in
numbers, unfortunately.

I'll have to see what I can get from McMasters, I guess. They have a 3'
assortment that sure lights up the 'candy shop' part of my brain, but
there's the expense...

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

In article ,
Tim Wescott wrote:

I'd sure like to order with
confidence that I'm getting something decent, not just the same metallic
noodles that I can get from the local hobby shop.

McMaster, Enco, MSC. All sell real metal to real metalworkers.

Last batch I got was from Enco. They have 12" cut lengths (straight) or
1 lb coils (not clear if an order of two pounds would be one coil or two
one pound coils - use the phone if it matters to you). I happened to
need stainless (mounting a skeleton, don't want rusty bones...btw, "just
say" never again.) The largest diameter of the three I got was 0.080" -
all of it (I also got 0.063 and 0.051) seems respectably hard for
stainless. Due primarily to slight variations in the price each way, I
got the .063 in 12" straight, and the other two in coils.

MSC also seems to have only 12" straight, and you report the same for
McMaster, so I guess straight 3 foot sections are out from those
suppliers unless you want drill rod, and that won't be prehardened.
Coils they all have, I think, and a 1/8 coil will be on a pretty large
radius (and about 24 feet)

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On 07/26/2010 04:49 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:
In ,
Tim wrote:

I'd sure like to order with
confidence that I'm getting something decent, not just the same metallic
noodles that I can get from the local hobby shop.

McMaster, Enco, MSC. All sell real metal to real metalworkers.

Last batch I got was from Enco. They have 12" cut lengths (straight) or
1 lb coils (not clear if an order of two pounds would be one coil or two
one pound coils - use the phone if it matters to you). I happened to
need stainless (mounting a skeleton, don't want rusty bones...btw, "just
say" never again.) The largest diameter of the three I got was 0.080" -
all of it (I also got 0.063 and 0.051) seems respectably hard for
stainless. Due primarily to slight variations in the price each way, I
got the .063 in 12" straight, and the other two in coils.

MSC also seems to have only 12" straight, and you report the same for
McMaster, so I guess straight 3 foot sections are out from those
suppliers unless you want drill rod, and that won't be prehardened.
Coils they all have, I think, and a 1/8 coil will be on a pretty large
radius (and about 24 feet)

If I had a way of straightening it as needed I'd be happy with a coil.
Somehow I think I could buy a _lot_ of straightened music wire for the
amount of time I'd spend trying to make a straightener.

12" would leave me with lots of little unused bits ranging from 1/2" to
5" (I know, bitch bitch bitch).

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

In article ,
Tim Wescott wrote:
If I had a way of straightening it as needed I'd be happy with a coil.
Somehow I think I could buy a _lot_ of straightened music wire for the
amount of time I'd spend trying to make a straightener.

12" would leave me with lots of little unused bits ranging from 1/2" to
5" (I know, bitch bitch bitch).

The amount of bend in a coil of 1/8 (based on the way the coil of 0.080
was packed, and how it unrolls from how it's packed) would be tiny over
an inferred maximum length of 11-1/2" (1/2" scrap from 12"), and if you
can work by feel and eyeball, two nails in a board will straighten those
sections further (or just use the bending fork you probably already use
for sharp bends to hold the end while you put some back-bend in and
compare to a straightedge) - how straight do you really need?

Contraiwise, while you pay a premium of $8 for 25 straight chunks .vs.
24 feet in a coil, and there's more waste, if dead straight matters to
you, it's cheap - it's also a heck of a lot easier to store and dispense
(you don't want to get careless with a coil of big music wire - it likes
to uncoil with force, and it will hurt you if given a chance.)

But, perhaps your best option is 6 feet from small parts, which you
mentioned at the outset, IIRC - even less waste, already straight, cut
in half when it arrives if you are committed to 3 feet for storage. Just
make sure they understand that you'll be sending it back and expecting a
refund if it's noodles. I've never bought from them, but I recall other
people speaking well of their products (if not always of their prices).

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Jul 26, 4:06*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. *K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.


Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com



I would give K & S a chance to send you another piece. They may have
gotten a bad lot from their vendor. So an email or phone call might
solve your problem.

As someone said you can buy drill rod in 3 ft lengths. But you would
have to heat treat it.

Dan

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:54:23 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:01:03 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


I assume that Tim has a good feel for what's "hard" in 1/8" music wire.
That's the largest legitimate diameter of real music wire, and it's the
softest. Still, it's not soft. I think the ultimate tensile is around
110,000 psi or something like that; the Rc hardness would still be pretty
good, compared to any ordinary plain-carbon steel.

That sounds way low. Cold drawn 1045 rounds are nearly that strong.

261 to 288 ksi here...
http://www.precisionbrand.com/Produc....aspx?Catid=48

--
Ned Simmons

Yeah, if you caught my correction, the minimum is around 220,000 psi.

I saw it with the mouse click right after the one that dispatched my
nag.

--
Ned Simmons

On 07/26/2010 05:42 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:
In ,
Tim wrote:
If I had a way of straightening it as needed I'd be happy with a coil.
Somehow I think I could buy a _lot_ of straightened music wire for the
amount of time I'd spend trying to make a straightener.

12" would leave me with lots of little unused bits ranging from 1/2" to
5" (I know, bitch bitch bitch).

The amount of bend in a coil of 1/8 (based on the way the coil of 0.080
was packed, and how it unrolls from how it's packed) would be tiny over
an inferred maximum length of 11-1/2" (1/2" scrap from 12"), and if you
can work by feel and eyeball, two nails in a board will straighten those
sections further (or just use the bending fork you probably already use
for sharp bends to hold the end while you put some back-bend in and
compare to a straightedge) - how straight do you really need?

Contraiwise, while you pay a premium of $8 for 25 straight chunks .vs.
24 feet in a coil, and there's more waste, if dead straight matters to
you, it's cheap - it's also a heck of a lot easier to store and dispense
(you don't want to get careless with a coil of big music wire - it likes
to uncoil with force, and it will hurt you if given a chance.)

But, perhaps your best option is 6 feet from small parts, which you
mentioned at the outset, IIRC - even less waste, already straight, cut
in half when it arrives if you are committed to 3 feet for storage. Just
make sure they understand that you'll be sending it back and expecting a
refund if it's noodles. I've never bought from them, but I recall other
people speaking well of their products (if not always of their prices).

I've ordered from Small Parts a few times, and what I got was always top
drawer.

Perhaps I should call McMaster or Small Parts and see if they know what
the relaxed diameter of their 1/8" music wire is. The shop's big enough
I could just hang a (relaxed) coil on the wall, if it's less than eight
feet around.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 07/26/2010 05:55 PM, wrote:
On Jul 26, 4:06 pm, Tim wrote:

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.


Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com



I would give K& S a chance to send you another piece. They may have
gotten a bad lot from their vendor. So an email or phone call might
solve your problem.

As someone said you can buy drill rod in 3 ft lengths. But you would
have to heat treat it.

K&S is a brand; they sell to hobby shops and Michael's crafts, etc. I'd
have to take it back to the local hobby shop where I got it, and make
Russ's life even more miserable over keeping $2.00 parts in stock when
what he really makes money on is $500 almost ready to fly airplanes.

Since I'm thrilled to pieces to have a _real_ hobby shop in town, I
don't want to encourage him to turn into just another toy store.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 7/26/2010 11:38 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 07/26/2010 05:55 PM, wrote:
On Jul 26, 4:06 pm, Tim wrote:

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.


Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com



I would give K& S a chance to send you another piece. They may have
gotten a bad lot from their vendor. So an email or phone call might
solve your problem.

As someone said you can buy drill rod in 3 ft lengths. But you would
have to heat treat it.

K&S is a brand; they sell to hobby shops and Michael's crafts, etc. I'd
have to take it back to the local hobby shop where I got it, and make
Russ's life even more miserable over keeping $2.00 parts in stock when
what he really makes money on is $500 almost ready to fly airplanes.

I don't see your point. K&S provided the product, they have a business
office and a phone number and a CEO. The worst that can happen is that
they won't do anything, so why not give it a try?

Since I'm thrilled to pieces to have a _real_ hobby shop in town, I
don't want to encourage him to turn into just another toy store.

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:38:34 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Since I'm thrilled to pieces to have a _real_ hobby shop in town, I
don't want to encourage him to turn into just another toy store.

While I can understand your point, I don't think you are doing him a
favor by letting him, unknowingly, continue to sell poor quality
stuff. Over time, the result is that customers will quit coming in the
doors, and that's not what he wants.

If you don't want to take the item back, at least let him know, in a
friendly way, that the product is no good.
--
RoRo

On Jul 27, 6:40*am, Robert Roland wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:38:34 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Since I'm thrilled to pieces to have a _real_ hobby shop in town, I
don't want to encourage him to turn into just another toy store.

While I can understand your point, I don't think you are doing him a
favor by letting him, unknowingly, continue to sell poor quality
stuff. Over time, the result is that customers will quit coming in the
doors, and that's not what he wants.

If you don't want to take the item back, at least let him know, in a
friendly way, that the product is no good.
--
RoRo

Right, the best of all possible worlds would be your local shop
stocking good music wire.

Dan

On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 00:49:36 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


K&S is a brand; they sell to hobby shops and Michael's crafts, etc. I'd
have to take it back to the local hobby shop where I got it, and make
Russ's life even more miserable over keeping $2.00 parts in stock when
what he really makes money on is $500 almost ready to fly airplanes.

I don't see your point. K&S provided the product, they have a business
office and a phone number and a CEO. The worst that can happen is that
they won't do anything, so why not give it a try?

A couple weeks ago I received a package of socket set screws from
McMaster that were apparently improperly heat treated -- they were
brittle as glass. McMaster could only apologize and give me a refund,
but a call to the mfr got me a new package from a different lot and a
thanks from the plant manager for alerting them of the problem.

--
Ned Simmons

On Jul 26, 1:06*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
Argh. *Just bent up a landing gear for a model plane. *1/8" "Music wire"
from K&S. *Nominally the same thing, except one was the tail-end of an
older piece, and one was brand spanking new.

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. *K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.

Any ideas on where I might best get good old fashioned three-foot
straight pieces of music wire? *I see that McMaster has it -- in one
foot lengths, and Small Parts has it -- mostly in six foot lengths. *I
can deal with the odd length issue, but I'd sure like to order with
confidence that I'm getting something decent, not just the same metallic
noodles that I can get from the local hobby shop.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

I wonder if this is the same music wire that the local hardware store
carries? I looked there yesterday on the way home. Tried a piece of
1/8 inch, three ft long. Seemed to be the same type stuff as you
described. They even had 1/4 inch wire?

Paul

" wrote in message
...
On Jul 26, 1:06 pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
Argh. Just bent up a landing gear for a model plane. 1/8" "Music wire"
from K&S. Nominally the same thing, except one was the tail-end of an
older piece, and one was brand spanking new.

The new piece is _soft_ -- more welding rod that nice hard music wire.
I had noticed this before with some 1/16" stock, but it didn't penetrate
my poor thick skull. K&S is obviously going down the "consumers are
stupid" route.

Any ideas on where I might best get good old fashioned three-foot
straight pieces of music wire? I see that McMaster has it -- in one
foot lengths, and Small Parts has it -- mostly in six foot lengths. I
can deal with the odd length issue, but I'd sure like to order with
confidence that I'm getting something decent, not just the same metallic
noodles that I can get from the local hobby shop.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

I wonder if this is the same music wire that the local hardware store
carries? I looked there yesterday on the way home. Tried a piece of
1/8 inch, three ft long. Seemed to be the same type stuff as you
described. They even had 1/4 inch wire?

I don't know if the standard (ASTM a228) actually specifies a maximum
diameter, but, IIRC, 1/8" is the thickest that can reliably achieve the
specified minimum yield strength (specifically, 231,000 psi under the ASTM
standard).

Here's a summary of properties:

http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe... c6849&ckck=1

Many other materials are loosely called "music wire" or "piano wire," but
the description above is for the real thing.

--
Ed Huntress

Tim Wescott wrote:

I have a good _feel_ for it, but not a feel that's calibrated in
numbers, unfortunately.

I'll have to see what I can get from McMasters, I guess. They have a 3'
assortment that sure lights up the 'candy shop' part of my brain, but
there's the expense...

Well if we could set the wayback machine to 1972 or so, Logansport Indiana, Bickels Bike
and Hobby Shop, you need to walk past a wooden railing in the back, go hard left, and
there it is in tubes. Next to balsa and small brass tubing. Check out the Cox engines in
the display case, maybe buy the pulse jet thingy. The price for fuel for glow plug
engines would make you smile now.

If you are into slot cars or HO stuff, go down stairs, pass the lines of Schwin bicycles,
ignore that Collegate model, the one with the Sturmy Archer 3 speed hub will handle the
paper route that is funding the visit and go to the back for the track for the big boys.
Oh baby!.

Wes

"Robert Roland" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:38:34 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Since I'm thrilled to pieces to have a _real_ hobby shop in town, I
don't want to encourage him to turn into just another toy store.

While I can understand your point, I don't think you are doing him a
favor by letting him, unknowingly, continue to sell poor quality
stuff. Over time, the result is that customers will quit coming in the
doors, and that's not what he wants.

If you don't want to take the item back, at least let him know, in a
friendly way, that the product is no good.
--
RoRo

Some years ago (20?) o bought some K&S to make some springs. It turned out
to be hard drawn wire, not real carbon steel piano wire. Once annealed, it
could not be hardened like the real stuff they sold before that. In the late
60s to late 70s I kept an old '62 Norton motorcycle going, using my own home
made parts. Kick starter return springs could just be made from a yard of
hobby shop piano wire. The later stuff was no good. I had to buy a 12 foot
length of ground all over, which is much the same as drill rod, but the
diameter is not so accurately controlled.


Steve R.