Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.

i

Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.


Generally diamond wheels at high speed and steel do not go together. The steel has an
affinity for carbon which is what a diamond wheel is. Still, from hanging out on the
Quorn groups and such, I see that people use diamond wheels on HSS.

CBN is the wheel for steel afaikt.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On 2009-08-08, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.


Generally diamond wheels at high speed and steel do not go together. The steel has an
affinity for carbon which is what a diamond wheel is. Still, from hanging out on the
Quorn groups and such, I see that people use diamond wheels on HSS.

Wes, I may be very seriously confused and misinformed. What I was
thinking about originally was carbide tipped lathe bits (with carbide
tips brazed on). When I grind those, the objective is to grind
carbide, but some steel gets ground, as well.

i

On 2009-08-08, Ignoramus13611 wrote:
Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.

Well ... you don't really want to use a diamond wheel on HSS,
just on carbide.

And for bits with indexable (replaceable instead of brazed)
inserts, *I* would not re-grind them, as that would lose one of the
important features of the inserts -- the ability to rotate to a new
corner or to install a fresh insert once all the corners are used up,
and not have the dial settings shift. If you only do one-offs, and
*never* need to replace an insert in the middle of that project, I guess
that it does not matter -- but for me, it does matter.

I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.

Just that you changed the zero point for those inserts. If you
aren't depending on the indexable feature, fine -- but you might as well
be using brazed inserts then.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Ignoramus13611 wrote:
Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.

i


I've always ground my lathe tools by hand ,neverhad any fancy jigs or such .
As far as brazed on carbide tips go ,use a silicon carbide wheel (Green)
to sharpen ,it doesnt matter if some steel get ground with this wheel.
Ive never bothered to grind inserts ,I suppose you can use old tips to
make brazed tipped cutting tools

--
Kevin (Bluey)
"I'm not young enough to know everything."

Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Wes, I may be very seriously confused and misinformed. What I was
thinking about originally was carbide tipped lathe bits (with carbide
tips brazed on). When I grind those, the objective is to grind
carbide, but some steel gets ground, as well.

You can undercut the carbide (steel support) on a aluminim oxide wheel first.

Wes

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

On 2009-08-08, Ignoramus13611
wrote:
Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.

Well ... you don't really want to use a diamond wheel on HSS,
just on carbide.

Depends on the speed. The whole idea behind Glendo Accu-Finsh grinders is
that you can use diamond for everything if you run it slow enough:

http://www.accu-finish.com/seriesone.html

I use mine for HSS just fine. I will typically rough HSS on a regular
bench grinder by hand, and then clean them up on the Accu-Finish. I use it
all the time on brazed carbide lathe bits.

Doug White

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 17:29:00 -0500, Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.

I'd think it depends on your definition of "freehand". I've ground
cutters, but there was always that platform where I could rest the
tool; from that point, it was "freehand", as long as that platform
was on the correct angle.

There's a diamond wheel in the shop, and the machinists routinely
grind carbide bits "freehand", but it's still got that platform-
sorry, I don't know the proper technical terminology.

For that matter, how would you do it _not_ "freehand"?

Thanks,
Rich

On 2009-08-09, Rich Grise wrote:
I'd think it depends on your definition of "freehand". I've ground
cutters, but there was always that platform where I could rest the
tool; from that point, it was "freehand", as long as that platform
was on the correct angle.

By freehand, I mean no platform whatsoever.

There's a diamond wheel in the shop, and the machinists routinely
grind carbide bits "freehand", but it's still got that platform-
sorry, I don't know the proper technical terminology.

For that matter, how would you do it _not_ "freehand"?

Some grinder have adjustable platforms that adjust exactly to the
right supporting position.

"Wes" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing

snip---

Still, from hanging out on the
Quorn groups and such, I see that people use diamond wheels on HSS.

Only those with little in the way of brains. As you alluded, diamond is
absorbed into steel at grinding temperatures unless the surface speed is
VERY low. The change in grinding ability of a diamond wheel that is so
abused is readily noticeable--assuming you understand the difference.

Harold

"Ignoramus13611" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-08, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.


Generally diamond wheels at high speed and steel do not go together. The
steel has an
affinity for carbon which is what a diamond wheel is. Still, from
hanging out on the
Quorn groups and such, I see that people use diamond wheels on HSS.

Wes, I may be very seriously confused and misinformed. What I was
thinking about originally was carbide tipped lathe bits (with carbide
tips brazed on). When I grind those, the objective is to grind
carbide, but some steel gets ground, as well.

It's up to you to see that it doesn't. Use an aluminum oxide wheel to
grind away the steel that will get ground. Unless you use the tools for
extremely heavy cuts (unlikely), it's easiest to grind the steel at a
greater relief angle, so even if you touch steel when grinding the carbide,
very little is exposed to the diamond wheel. Do not seriously undercut
the carbide, otherwise you risk tool failure.

Do not grind steel with a diamond wheel that runs at high speed, regardless
of what foolish people tell you. Norton did extensive testing back in the
50's in regards to diamond and steel. They do not go together. If they
did, all grinding manuals would suggest they be ground together with
diamond.

Harold

"Kevin(Bluey)" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus13611 wrote:
Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding. i


I've always ground my lathe tools by hand ,neverhad any fancy jigs or such
.
As far as brazed on carbide tips go ,use a silicon carbide wheel (Green)
to sharpen ,it doesnt matter if some steel get ground with this wheel.

Ah! But it does! Just like diamond is dissolved in steel, so, too, is
silicon. Silicon carbide wheels are NEVER intended for use on steel. The
big difference with the green wheels is they are bonded so softly that they
slough away too fast for you to recognize that they are dull. No harm to the
steel, just a waste of the wheel.

You should move to a diamond wheel, one that runs wet. Today's diamond
wheels are but a tiny fraction of the cost of diamond wheels early on. A
wheel that cost more than $600 in the 50's now costs under $100. Considering
the loss of buying power of the American dollar, they cost about 5% of what
they used to. A single diamond wheel, roughly a 220 grit, will see you
through your entire lifetime, unless you use it for commercial
applications, and will prolong the life of your cutting tools. In the end,
a diamond wheel is so cheap to use that a silicon wheel makes no sense,
especially when you consider the miserable surface finish they yield on
carbide.

Think diamond. You won't regret the decision. Be sure to run it wet.

Harold

"Ignoramus27305" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-09, Rich Grise wrote:
I'd think it depends on your definition of "freehand". I've ground
cutters, but there was always that platform where I could rest the
tool; from that point, it was "freehand", as long as that platform
was on the correct angle.

By freehand, I mean no platform whatsoever.

Not a great idea with carbide and diamond. The relief angles for carbide
are shallower than those for HSS, and are easily rounded if you don't have a
very steady hand. I do recommend a table for carbide, and I also recommend
you NEVER grind dry. Drip isn't very good, either, for you risk fracturing
the carbide by thermal shock. And----do not grind steel with your diamond
wheel. I can't stress that enough.

I grind HSS without a rest of any description, and with excellent results,
and have since 1966. I had been in the trade 8-1/2 years when I was
introduced to free-hand grinding. Hated it at first, but once I mastered
the technique, there's no way I'd turn back. No way I'd use a rest. They
get in the way when you're trying to grind chip breakers or other complex
configurations.

Harold

On Aug 10, 7:45*pm, rangerssuck wrote:




a) I doubt, from reading Norton's literature, that you're going to
"use up" a diamond wheel in your lifetime by grinding steel on it.

b) You can get a pretty serviceable tool bit grinder at Harbor Freight
for about $160, which would be way more precise than doing it by hand.

If you use a diamond wheel on steel, you will rapidly loose the sharp
edges that do the cutting. So do whatever you like, but you are not
going to convince me to use a diamond wheel on steel when there are
cheaper wheels that work better on steel.

The Harbor Freight grinder may be more precise, but most of the
grinding instructions I have seen have wide tolerances for things as
rake. And a plain bench grinder can be used to grind concave and
convex form tools as well as sharpen drill bits.

Dan

On Aug 10, 5:29*pm, " wrote:
On Aug 10, 7:45*pm, rangerssuck wrote:



a) I doubt, from reading Norton's literature, that you're going to
"use up" a diamond wheel in your lifetime by grinding steel on it.

b) You can get a pretty serviceable tool bit grinder at Harbor Freight
for about $160, which would be way more precise than doing it by hand.

If you use a diamond wheel on steel, you will rapidly loose the sharp
edges that do the cutting. *So do whatever you like, but you are not
going to convince me to use a diamond wheel on steel when there are
cheaper wheels that work better on steel.

Yes, you will lose diamond, but define "rapidly." If I was running a
cutter sharpening service, I might be concerned. For the few dozen
tools a year that I will grind, I doubt it's much of an issue.


The Harbor Freight grinder may be more precise, but most of the
grinding instructions I have seen have wide tolerances for things as
rake. *And a plain bench grinder can be used to grind concave and
convex form tools as well as sharpen drill bits.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan

Well, of course. I was really trying to suggest that it's easier to
get the angles you want by setting them up on the machine table than
it is to estimate, cut and measure. There's certainly no reason why
you couldn't do just as well by hand. Especially for those of us who
don't do this every day (or even every week).

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 5:29 pm, " wrote:
On Aug 10, 7:45 pm, rangerssuck wrote:



a) I doubt, from reading Norton's literature, that you're going to
"use up" a diamond wheel in your lifetime by grinding steel on it.

b) You can get a pretty serviceable tool bit grinder at Harbor Freight
for about $160, which would be way more precise than doing it by hand.

If you use a diamond wheel on steel, you will rapidly loose the sharp
edges that do the cutting. So do whatever you like, but you are not
going to convince me to use a diamond wheel on steel when there are
cheaper wheels that work better on steel.

Yes, you will lose diamond, but define "rapidly." If I was running a
cutter sharpening service, I might be concerned. For the few dozen
tools a year that I will grind, I doubt it's much of an issue.


The Harbor Freight grinder may be more precise, but most of the
grinding instructions I have seen have wide tolerances for things as
rake. And a plain bench grinder can be used to grind concave and
convex form tools as well as sharpen drill bits.

Dan

Well, of course. I was really trying to suggest that it's easier to
get the angles you want by setting them up on the machine table than
it is to estimate, cut and measure. There's certainly no reason why
you couldn't do just as well by hand. Especially for those of us who
don't do this every day (or even every week).

True. When I was growing up, all the bits were freehand ground. Drills
included. Now, with poorer eyesite, I really like my Drill Doctor for the
smaller drill bits. Would be nice to have a machine to grind the lathe bits
perfectly, but since I have one small lathe and do not have to grind the
bits that often, I will hand grind. And on the Carborundum wheel as I only
have diamond on the Drill Doctor.

On 2009-08-10, Mike Henry wrote:

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. ..

"Ignoramus27305" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-09, Rich Grise wrote:
I'd think it depends on your definition of "freehand". I've ground
cutters, but there was always that platform where I could rest the
tool; from that point, it was "freehand", as long as that platform
was on the correct angle.

By freehand, I mean no platform whatsoever.

Not a great idea with carbide and diamond. The relief angles for carbide
are shallower than those for HSS, and are easily rounded if you don't have
a very steady hand. I do recommend a table for carbide, and I also
recommend you NEVER grind dry. Drip isn't very good, either, for you
risk fracturing the carbide by thermal shock. And----do not grind steel
with your diamond wheel. I can't stress that enough.

Glendo runs their diamond wheel slow, 300 rpm I think, and I've used it on
HSS for a touchup with no ill effects. Do you think that the slow speed is
OK?

What is the diameter of the wheel? RPM alone does not suffice.
You need the SFPM (Surface Feet Per Minute) to judge speeds.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

On 2009-08-10, Mike Henry wrote:

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. ..

"Ignoramus27305" wrote in
message ...
On 2009-08-09, Rich Grise wrote:
I'd think it depends on your definition of "freehand". I've ground
cutters, but there was always that platform where I could rest the
tool; from that point, it was "freehand", as long as that platform
was on the correct angle.

By freehand, I mean no platform whatsoever.

Not a great idea with carbide and diamond. The relief angles for
carbide are shallower than those for HSS, and are easily rounded if
you don't have a very steady hand. I do recommend a table for
carbide, and I also recommend you NEVER grind dry. Drip isn't very
good, either, for you risk fracturing the carbide by thermal shock.
And----do not grind steel with your diamond wheel. I can't stress
that enough.

Glendo runs their diamond wheel slow, 300 rpm I think, and I've used
it on HSS for a touchup with no ill effects. Do you think that the
slow speed is OK?

What is the diameter of the wheel? RPM alone does not suffice.
You need the SFPM (Surface Feet Per Minute) to judge speeds.

They have 5" & 6" wheels, depending on the model, and they have the
diamond on the flat face. They will be definitely be running a good bit
slower than an 8" regular grinding wheel, especially because you don't
spend all your time out at the edge. They are also designed to run wet.

Doug White

On Aug 10, 7:06*pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message

...
On Aug 10, 5:29 pm, " wrote:

On Aug 10, 7:45 pm, rangerssuck wrote:

a) I doubt, from reading Norton's literature, that you're going to
"use up" a diamond wheel in your lifetime by grinding steel on it.

b) You can get a pretty serviceable tool bit grinder at Harbor Freight
for about $160, which would be way more precise than doing it by hand..

If you use a diamond wheel on steel, you will rapidly loose the sharp
edges that do the cutting. So do whatever you like, but you are not
going to convince me to use a diamond wheel on steel when there are
cheaper wheels that work better on steel.

Yes, you will lose diamond, but define "rapidly." If I was running a
cutter sharpening service, I might be concerned. For the few dozen
tools a year that I will grind, I doubt it's much of an issue.



The Harbor Freight grinder may be more precise, but most of the
grinding instructions I have seen have wide tolerances for things as
rake. And a plain bench grinder can be used to grind concave and
convex form tools as well as sharpen drill bits.

Dan

Well, of course. I was really trying to suggest that it's easier to
get the angles you want by setting them up on the machine table than
it is to estimate, cut and measure. There's certainly no reason why
you couldn't do just as well by hand. Especially for those of us who
don't do this every day (or even every week).

True. *When I was growing up, all the bits were freehand ground. *Drills
included. *Now, with poorer eyesite, I really like my Drill Doctor for the
smaller drill bits. *Would be nice to have a machine to grind the lathe bits
perfectly, but since I have one small lathe and do not have to grind the
bits that often, I will hand grind. *And on the Carborundum wheel as I only
have diamond on the Drill Doctor.

I, too, have a Drill Doctor. It's great. Now you've got me thinking
about a fixture to hold lathe bits in it... Dial in your angles and
have at it. Oh crap. Now I probably won't sleep tonight.

On Aug 10, 7:06*pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message

...
On Aug 10, 5:29 pm, " wrote:

On Aug 10, 7:45 pm, rangerssuck wrote:

a) I doubt, from reading Norton's literature, that you're going to
"use up" a diamond wheel in your lifetime by grinding steel on it.

b) You can get a pretty serviceable tool bit grinder at Harbor Freight
for about $160, which would be way more precise than doing it by hand..

If you use a diamond wheel on steel, you will rapidly loose the sharp
edges that do the cutting. So do whatever you like, but you are not
going to convince me to use a diamond wheel on steel when there are
cheaper wheels that work better on steel.

Yes, you will lose diamond, but define "rapidly." If I was running a
cutter sharpening service, I might be concerned. For the few dozen
tools a year that I will grind, I doubt it's much of an issue.



The Harbor Freight grinder may be more precise, but most of the
grinding instructions I have seen have wide tolerances for things as
rake. And a plain bench grinder can be used to grind concave and
convex form tools as well as sharpen drill bits.

Dan

Well, of course. I was really trying to suggest that it's easier to
get the angles you want by setting them up on the machine table than
it is to estimate, cut and measure. There's certainly no reason why
you couldn't do just as well by hand. Especially for those of us who
don't do this every day (or even every week).

True. *When I was growing up, all the bits were freehand ground. *Drills
included. *Now, with poorer eyesite, I really like my Drill Doctor for the
smaller drill bits. *Would be nice to have a machine to grind the lathe bits
perfectly, but since I have one small lathe and do not have to grind the
bits that often, I will hand grind. *And on the Carborundum wheel as I only
have diamond on the Drill Doctor.

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits
on mine, including a couple of broken ones that needed a lot of
grinding, and the wheel still cuts fine.

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 7:06 pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message

...
On Aug 10, 5:29 pm, " wrote:

On Aug 10, 7:45 pm, rangerssuck wrote:

a) I doubt, from reading Norton's literature, that you're going to
"use up" a diamond wheel in your lifetime by grinding steel on it.

b) You can get a pretty serviceable tool bit grinder at Harbor Freight
for about $160, which would be way more precise than doing it by hand.

If you use a diamond wheel on steel, you will rapidly loose the sharp
edges that do the cutting. So do whatever you like, but you are not
going to convince me to use a diamond wheel on steel when there are
cheaper wheels that work better on steel.

Yes, you will lose diamond, but define "rapidly." If I was running a
cutter sharpening service, I might be concerned. For the few dozen
tools a year that I will grind, I doubt it's much of an issue.



The Harbor Freight grinder may be more precise, but most of the
grinding instructions I have seen have wide tolerances for things as
rake. And a plain bench grinder can be used to grind concave and
convex form tools as well as sharpen drill bits.

Dan

Well, of course. I was really trying to suggest that it's easier to
get the angles you want by setting them up on the machine table than
it is to estimate, cut and measure. There's certainly no reason why
you couldn't do just as well by hand. Especially for those of us who
don't do this every day (or even every week).

True. When I was growing up, all the bits were freehand ground. Drills
included. Now, with poorer eyesite, I really like my Drill Doctor for the
smaller drill bits. Would be nice to have a machine to grind the lathe
bits
perfectly, but since I have one small lathe and do not have to grind the
bits that often, I will hand grind. And on the Carborundum wheel as I only
have diamond on the Drill Doctor.

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits
on mine, including a couple of broken ones that needed a lot of
grinding, and the wheel still cuts fine.

Our drill doctors will now fail, as it has been pointed out that Diamonds
are not HSS steels friend. :(

On 2009-08-11, Doug White wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

On 2009-08-10, Mike Henry wrote:

[ ... ]

Glendo runs their diamond wheel slow, 300 rpm I think, and I've used
it on HSS for a touchup with no ill effects. Do you think that the
slow speed is OK?

What is the diameter of the wheel? RPM alone does not suffice.
You need the SFPM (Surface Feet Per Minute) to judge speeds.

They have 5" & 6" wheels, depending on the model, and they have the
diamond on the flat face. They will be definitely be running a good bit
slower than an 8" regular grinding wheel, especially because you don't
spend all your time out at the edge. They are also designed to run wet.

O.K. So surface speed would be a maximum of 471 SFM at the
outer edge of the 6" wheel. The running wet makes a big difference,
too. That would probably work well enough even with HSS. (Harold --
does this sound workable?)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2009-08-11, rangerssuck wrote:

[ ... ]

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits
on mine, including a couple of broken ones that needed a lot of
grinding, and the wheel still cuts fine.

Well ... the diamond wheel on the Drill Doctor is something like
1" diameter. I forget what the RPM was, from which we could calculate
the SFM -- but I have always wondered about the choice of diamond for
that. I think that it was mostly so they could also sharpen the carbide
masonry drills. :-)

I could go downstairs and set up the StroboTac again, but I am
under doctor's orders to not work machine tools until tomorrow.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 5:13 am, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Ignoramus13611" wrote in message

...



On 2009-08-08, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.

Generally diamond wheels at high speed and steel do not go together.
The
steel has an
affinity for carbon which is what a diamond wheel is. Still, from
hanging out on the
Quorn groups and such, I see that people use diamond wheels on HSS.

Wes, I may be very seriously confused and misinformed. What I was
thinking about originally was carbide tipped lathe bits (with carbide
tips brazed on). When I grind those, the objective is to grind
carbide, but some steel gets ground, as well.

It's up to you to see that it doesn't. Use an aluminum oxide wheel to
grind away the steel that will get ground. Unless you use the tools for
extremely heavy cuts (unlikely), it's easiest to grind the steel at a
greater relief angle, so even if you touch steel when grinding the
carbide,
very little is exposed to the diamond wheel. Do not seriously undercut
the carbide, otherwise you risk tool failure.

Do not grind steel with a diamond wheel that runs at high speed,
regardless
of what foolish people tell you. Norton did extensive testing back in the
50's in regards to diamond and steel. They do not go together. If they
did, all grinding manuals would suggest they be ground together with
diamond.

Harold

From what I remember of reading Norton's publication on the subject:
Yes, there is a noticeable degradation of the diamond, but only in
terms of production rates. What I mean is that if you have a wheel
that will last 10,000 hours grinding carbide, and it only lasts 1,000
hours grinding steel, that's not about to be a problem for a hobby (or
even small production) user.

I don't think I'd sweat it.
--------------------------------------------------------

It's not that simple. The wheel loses performance drastically, and it
happens quickly. It's obvious if you know the difference. I'd sweat
it, and plenty, as I have in all of my years in the shop. Why taunt the
piranha? Would you also paint your car with a broom? Why not-----it's
painted, isn't it? :-)

Harold

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. ..

"Ignoramus27305" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-09, Rich Grise wrote:
I'd think it depends on your definition of "freehand". I've ground
cutters, but there was always that platform where I could rest the
tool; from that point, it was "freehand", as long as that platform
was on the correct angle.

By freehand, I mean no platform whatsoever.

Not a great idea with carbide and diamond. The relief angles for carbide
are shallower than those for HSS, and are easily rounded if you don't
have a very steady hand. I do recommend a table for carbide, and I also
recommend you NEVER grind dry. Drip isn't very good, either, for you
risk fracturing the carbide by thermal shock. And----do not grind steel
with your diamond wheel. I can't stress that enough.

Glendo runs their diamond wheel slow, 300 rpm I think, and I've used it on
HSS for a touchup with no ill effects. Do you think that the slow speed
is OK?

snip

Everything I've read indicates that as long as you keep the grind under less
than red heat, you should be able to use diamond with no ill effects. It is
a good idea to do so wet, however, to keep the wheel free from loading.
Once you achieve excessive heat, the diamond is rapidly absorbed by the
steel involved. Once done, a wheel is restored to decent performance ONLY
by dressing away a percentage of the surface. It's clearly a stupid idea to
grind steel unless surface speed is very slow, as in your Glendo.

Harold

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-11, Doug White wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

On 2009-08-10, Mike Henry wrote:

[ ... ]

Glendo runs their diamond wheel slow, 300 rpm I think, and I've used
it on HSS for a touchup with no ill effects. Do you think that the
slow speed is OK?

What is the diameter of the wheel? RPM alone does not suffice.
You need the SFPM (Surface Feet Per Minute) to judge speeds.

They have 5" & 6" wheels, depending on the model, and they have the
diamond on the flat face. They will be definitely be running a good bit
slower than an 8" regular grinding wheel, especially because you don't
spend all your time out at the edge. They are also designed to run wet.

O.K. So surface speed would be a maximum of 471 SFM at the
outer edge of the 6" wheel. The running wet makes a big difference,
too. That would probably work well enough even with HSS. (Harold --
does this sound workable?)

Enjoy,
DoN.

Yep, sure does, DoN. While I've never used one of the machines, a friend
does, and he's had no problems that would otherwise be very evident.

Harold

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 05:05:29 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 5:13 am, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Ignoramus13611" wrote in message

...



On 2009-08-08, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.

Generally diamond wheels at high speed and steel do not go together.
The
steel has an
affinity for carbon which is what a diamond wheel is. Still, from
hanging out on the
Quorn groups and such, I see that people use diamond wheels on HSS.

Wes, I may be very seriously confused and misinformed. What I was
thinking about originally was carbide tipped lathe bits (with carbide
tips brazed on). When I grind those, the objective is to grind
carbide, but some steel gets ground, as well.

It's up to you to see that it doesn't. Use an aluminum oxide wheel to
grind away the steel that will get ground. Unless you use the tools for
extremely heavy cuts (unlikely), it's easiest to grind the steel at a
greater relief angle, so even if you touch steel when grinding the
carbide,
very little is exposed to the diamond wheel. Do not seriously undercut
the carbide, otherwise you risk tool failure.

Do not grind steel with a diamond wheel that runs at high speed,
regardless
of what foolish people tell you. Norton did extensive testing back in the
50's in regards to diamond and steel. They do not go together. If they
did, all grinding manuals would suggest they be ground together with
diamond.

Harold

From what I remember of reading Norton's publication on the subject:
Yes, there is a noticeable degradation of the diamond, but only in
terms of production rates. What I mean is that if you have a wheel
that will last 10,000 hours grinding carbide, and it only lasts 1,000
hours grinding steel, that's not about to be a problem for a hobby (or
even small production) user.

I don't think I'd sweat it.
--------------------------------------------------------

It's not that simple. The wheel loses performance drastically, and it
happens quickly. It's obvious if you know the difference. I'd sweat
it, and plenty, as I have in all of my years in the shop. Why taunt the
piranha? Would you also paint your car with a broom? Why not-----it's
painted, isn't it? :-)

Harold

Harold has it right. Ive seen newbies take bits to diamond wheels in
machine shops...and toast em in a VERY short time.

The owners tend to get really really really ****ed off.

Gunner

'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith
becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact
equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man
because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the
person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag,
the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the
English language.. and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people.'
Theodore Ro osevelt 1907

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

I could go downstairs and set up the StroboTac again, but I am
under doctor's orders to not work machine tools until tomorrow.


?????

Whatever it is, hope you recover soon.

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 05:05:29 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 5:13 am, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Ignoramus13611" wrote in message

...



On 2009-08-08, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.

Generally diamond wheels at high speed and steel do not go together.
The
steel has an
affinity for carbon which is what a diamond wheel is. Still, from
hanging out on the
Quorn groups and such, I see that people use diamond wheels on HSS.

Wes, I may be very seriously confused and misinformed. What I was
thinking about originally was carbide tipped lathe bits (with carbide
tips brazed on). When I grind those, the objective is to grind
carbide, but some steel gets ground, as well.

It's up to you to see that it doesn't. Use an aluminum oxide wheel to
grind away the steel that will get ground. Unless you use the tools for
extremely heavy cuts (unlikely), it's easiest to grind the steel at a
greater relief angle, so even if you touch steel when grinding the
carbide,
very little is exposed to the diamond wheel. Do not seriously undercut
the carbide, otherwise you risk tool failure.

Do not grind steel with a diamond wheel that runs at high speed,
regardless
of what foolish people tell you. Norton did extensive testing back in the
50's in regards to diamond and steel. They do not go together. If they
did, all grinding manuals would suggest they be ground together with
diamond.

Harold

From what I remember of reading Norton's publication on the subject:
Yes, there is a noticeable degradation of the diamond, but only in
terms of production rates. What I mean is that if you have a wheel
that will last 10,000 hours grinding carbide, and it only lasts 1,000
hours grinding steel, that's not about to be a problem for a hobby (or
even small production) user.

I don't think I'd sweat it.
--------------------------------------------------------

It's not that simple. The wheel loses performance drastically, and it
happens quickly. It's obvious if you know the difference. I'd sweat
it, and plenty, as I have in all of my years in the shop. Why taunt the
piranha? Would you also paint your car with a broom? Why not-----it's
painted, isn't it? :-)

Harold


Actually, I bought a mill that looked like it was painted with a
broom. A very old, dirty one. Right over the spooge. Don't think
I'd like it on a car.

Pete Keillor

On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits
on mine, including a couple of broken ones that needed a lot of
grinding, and the wheel still cuts fine.

The wheel in Drill Doctor is not diamond, it is CBN.

i

On Aug 10, 10:51*pm, rangerssuck wrote:

Yes, you will lose diamond, but define "rapidly." If I was running a
cutter sharpening service, I might be concerned. For the few dozen
tools a year that I will grind, I doubt it's much of an issue.

For a 6 inch wheel at 3450 rpm grinding dry, I would define rapidly as
less than 5 minutes to noticeably reduce the cutting speed.


Well, of course. I was really trying to suggest that it's easier to
get the angles you want by setting them up on the machine table than
it is to estimate, cut and measure. There's certainly no reason why
you couldn't do just as well by hand. Especially for those of us who
don't do this every day (or even every week).

I do not grind tool bits everyday or even every week, but I think it
is kind of like riding a bicycle. Not something that needs to be
relearned after not doing it.

Dan

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-11, Doug White wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

On 2009-08-10, Mike Henry wrote:

[ ... ]

Glendo runs their diamond wheel slow, 300 rpm I think, and I've used
it on HSS for a touchup with no ill effects. Do you think that the
slow speed is OK?

What is the diameter of the wheel? RPM alone does not suffice.
You need the SFPM (Surface Feet Per Minute) to judge speeds.

They have 5" & 6" wheels, depending on the model, and they have the
diamond on the flat face. They will be definitely be running a good bit
slower than an 8" regular grinding wheel, especially because you don't
spend all your time out at the edge. They are also designed to run wet.

O.K. So surface speed would be a maximum of 471 SFM at the
outer edge of the 6" wheel. The running wet makes a big difference,
too. That would probably work well enough even with HSS. (Harold --
does this sound workable?)

Enjoy,
DoN.

Yep, sure does, DoN. While I've never used one of the machines, a
friend does, and he's had no problems that would otherwise be very
evident.


Glendo has been around a fairly long time ( 20 years?) so I'd think
problems would have made themselves known by now if they were common.

FWIW, my Glendo has been used mostly for HSS for the past 10 years and I
just used it to grind a taper on heavy wall glass tubing. The job went real
quick so it would seem that the diamond on the wheel is still "sharp".

"Ignoramus17579" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits
on mine, including a couple of broken ones that needed a lot of
grinding, and the wheel still cuts fine.

The wheel in Drill Doctor is not diamond, it is CBN.

i

I seem to remember mine said diamond. Unfortunately I loaned to someone.
Can not remember who I loaned it to. So may buy the one that does split
points.
http://www.drilldoctorstore.us/drilldoctor.html Describes it as a diamond
wheel

On Aug 11, 8:32*am, Ignoramus17579 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
17579.invalid wrote:
On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:



And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits
on mine, including a couple of broken ones that needed a lot of
grinding, and the wheel still cuts fine.

The wheel in Drill Doctor is not diamond, it is CBN.

i

Mine is diamond.

On 2009-08-11, Ignoramus17579 wrote:
On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits

[ ... ]

The wheel in Drill Doctor is not diamond, it is CBN.

That may depend on when it was made. Mine came with a diamond
wheel according to the maker. And I ordered a spare when I got mine.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:

"Ignoramus17579" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits

[ ... ]

The wheel in Drill Doctor is not diamond, it is CBN.

[ ... ]

I seem to remember mine said diamond. Unfortunately I loaned to someone.
Can not remember who I loaned it to. So may buy the one that does split
points.

Note that while it does split points fairly well on *larger*
bits, it is close to useless doing 3/16" bits or smaller. I was having
great problems with mine, someone else in the club was posting that it
was doing a great job, so we both brought ours to the club meeting so he
could try mine and vice versa. I brought along a drill bit of the size
I was trying, and he brought along one of the size he was trying (1/2"
or so, IIRC)

Well ... he was able to do a nice job on his bit in my DD, but
not able to do anything reasonable with my drill bit (3/16" or 1/4")
with either DD.

http://www.drilldoctorstore.us/drilldoctor.html Describes it as a diamond
wheel

As I remembered from back when it came from the original maker.

All of them at that site look different from the one I have,
which is from the first maker.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2009-08-11, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2009-08-11, Ignoramus17579 wrote:
On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits

[ ... ]

The wheel in Drill Doctor is not diamond, it is CBN.

That may depend on when it was made. Mine came with a diamond
wheel according to the maker. And I ordered a spare when I got mine.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Looks like I am wrong. I will check mine again.

i

"Ignoramus17579" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-11, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2009-08-11, Ignoramus17579
wrote:
On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits

[ ... ]

The wheel in Drill Doctor is not diamond, it is CBN.

That may depend on when it was made. Mine came with a diamond
wheel according to the maker. And I ordered a spare when I got mine.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Looks like I am wrong. I will check mine again.

i

On their website -- the actual Drill Doctor website, not the distributor
website -- they say one wheel is good for around 200 drill bits. If they're
using diamond, that fits. That's not very long for a superabrasive wheel of
any kind.

Diamond actually holds up OK grinding steel until it gets very hot. I don't
know how fast the DD setup runs, but it could last for a while with diamond.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 11:41:36 -0700, rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 10, 5:13*am, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Ignoramus13611" wrote in message
On 2009-08-08, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus13611 wrote:

Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding.

Generally diamond wheels at high speed and steel do not go together. *The
steel has an
affinity for carbon which is what a diamond wheel is. *Still, from
hanging out on the
Quorn groups and such, I see that people use diamond wheels on HSS.

Wes, I may be very seriously confused and misinformed. What I was
thinking about originally was carbide tipped lathe bits (with carbide
tips brazed on). When I grind those, the objective is to grind
carbide, but some steel gets ground, as well.

It's up to you to see that it doesn't. * Use an aluminum oxide wheel to
grind away the steel that will get ground. * Unless you use the tools for
extremely heavy cuts (unlikely), it's easiest to grind the steel at a
greater relief angle, so even if you touch steel when grinding the carbide,
very little is exposed to the diamond wheel. * *Do not seriously undercut
the carbide, otherwise you risk tool failure.

Do not grind steel with a diamond wheel that runs at high speed, regardless
of what foolish people tell you. *Norton did extensive testing back in the
50's in regards to diamond and steel. *They do not go together. *If they
did, all grinding manuals would suggest they be ground together with
diamond.

From what I remember of reading Norton's publication on the subject:
Yes, there is a noticeable degradation of the diamond, but only in
terms of production rates. What I mean is that if you have a wheel
that will last 10,000 hours grinding carbide, and it only lasts 1,000
hours grinding steel, that's not about to be a problem for a hobby (or
even small production) user.

I don't think I'd sweat it.

We have a diamond wheel in the shop where I sit (industrial fab etc.),
and if you get caught grinding anything anything but carbide on it, you'll
get summarily fired.

Cheers!
Rich

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:

"Ignoramus17579" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-11, Calif Bill wrote:

And hey, wait a minute! the Drill Doctor is an example of a machine
DESIGNED to grind HSS with a diamond wheel. I've done hundreds of bits

[ ... ]

The wheel in Drill Doctor is not diamond, it is CBN.

[ ... ]

I seem to remember mine said diamond. Unfortunately I loaned to someone.
Can not remember who I loaned it to. So may buy the one that does split
points.

Note that while it does split points fairly well on *larger*
bits, it is close to useless doing 3/16" bits or smaller. I was having
great problems with mine, someone else in the club was posting that it
was doing a great job, so we both brought ours to the club meeting so he
could try mine and vice versa. I brought along a drill bit of the size
I was trying, and he brought along one of the size he was trying (1/2"
or so, IIRC)

Well ... he was able to do a nice job on his bit in my DD, but
not able to do anything reasonable with my drill bit (3/16" or 1/4")
with either DD.

http://www.drilldoctorstore.us/drilldoctor.html Describes it as a
diamond
wheel

As I remembered from back when it came from the original maker.

All of them at that site look different from the one I have,
which is from the first maker.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I think it is a steel wheel with a small amount of diamond embedded in the
surface. As opposed to a diamond grinding wheel that you would use on say
carbide bits. You could not have much wear, like a CBN wheel and keep any
degree of accuracy on the drill sharpening.