I'm still working on getting my idle control working on my old Miller
gas-powered welder. (Kohler 16hp motor.) The idle control module is dead,
no replacements are available anywhere I've found, but the idle solenoid
on the motor still works.

So I'm going to wire a switch velcroed to my stinger. I figure for now I'll
just run a pair of wires down each piece of welding lead, make the connections
with spade lugs, and run the wires to the input of a small relay which will
switch current on or off to the idle solenoid.

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter & Brumfield part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data sheet:
http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting resistor in series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA current
source?

Grant

--
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"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
.. .
I'm still working on getting my idle control working on my old Miller
gas-powered welder. (Kohler 16hp motor.) The idle control module is dead,
no replacements are available anywhere I've found, but the idle solenoid
on the motor still works.

So I'm going to wire a switch velcroed to my stinger. I figure for now
I'll
just run a pair of wires down each piece of welding lead, make the
connections
with spade lugs, and run the wires to the input of a small relay which
will
switch current on or off to the idle solenoid.

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter & Brumfield
part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data sheet:
http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at
between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting resistor in
series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA current
source?

Grant

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



A solid state relay designed for A.C. loads will not work to switch a D.C.
load
on and off. The solid state relays i have worked with use a scr or a triac
to turn
the load on and off. If you turn on a scr or triac in a D.C. circuit it will
stay on
until you disconect the power from the scr or triac, in other words the SSR
will latch
in the on state until you remove the power from the SSR.

Best Regards
Tom.

Grant,
SSR's draw very little control current. A 9-12V battery will last a
long time, and will fail "off", no resistor needed.

You don't say what you want to control, the generator must have some
control inputs, but, I'm stumped.

More info please.
Dave


On Dec 16, 8:56 pm, Grant Erwin wrote:
I'm still working on getting my idle control working on my old Miller
gas-powered welder. (Kohler 16hp motor.) The idle control module is dead,
no replacements are available anywhere I've found, but the idle solenoid
on the motor still works.

So I'm going to wire a switch velcroed to my stinger. I figure for now I'll
just run a pair of wires down each piece of welding lead, make the connections
with spade lugs, and run the wires to the input of a small relay which will
switch current on or off to the idle solenoid.

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter & Brumfield part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data sheet:http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting resistor in series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA current
source?

Grant

--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

There is an idle solenoid mounted on the side of the carburetor. When it is
energized, it pulls the governor arm to an idle position. When it is
de-energized, it releases the governor so it goes to the weld position.

This idle solenoid has a coil resistance of 5.6 ohms, so run from 12V will
draw about 2 amps DC.

This is what I want to control. The power I have available to switch on or
off to a relay coil is just 12VDC, basically a car battery.

This is a gas engine coupled to a welder, a relatively crude machine.

Azotic already posted that my relay won't work to switch a DC load. Now I'm
trying to find one that will, hopefully that won't break the bank.

Coil voltage: 12VDC
Load voltage: 12VDC

Thanks, Grant

Mechanical Magic wrote:
Grant,
SSR's draw very little control current. A 9-12V battery will last a
long time, and will fail "off", no resistor needed.

You don't say what you want to control, the generator must have some
control inputs, but, I'm stumped.

More info please.
Dave


On Dec 16, 8:56 pm, Grant Erwin wrote:

I'm still working on getting my idle control working on my old Miller
gas-powered welder. (Kohler 16hp motor.) The idle control module is dead,
no replacements are available anywhere I've found, but the idle solenoid
on the motor still works.

So I'm going to wire a switch velcroed to my stinger. I figure for now I'll
just run a pair of wires down each piece of welding lead, make the connections
with spade lugs, and run the wires to the input of a small relay which will
switch current on or off to the idle solenoid.

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter & Brumfield part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data sheet:http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting resistor in series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA current
source?

Grant

--
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--
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On 2007-12-17, Grant Erwin wrote:

[ ... ]

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter & Brumfield part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data sheet:
http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

O.K.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting resistor in series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

Why the current limiting resistor? The relays can accept any
voltage between 3 to 32 VDC and will draw no more than 14 mA from that --
without an external limiting resistor.

Oops -- never mind. Looking at the data sheet, this is
apparently a style intended for constant current input -- and you can
hook several of them in series to control them all with a single
current. (The voltage input ones, which are what I am more accustomed
to, would be hooked in parallel instead.

But your more serious problem is trying to switch DC as the load
current.

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

It can happily switch *on* the DC. The problem is that it is a
thyristor or triac controlled through an opto-isolator from the 3 to 32
VDC control signal.

A thyristor or triac switches on when it gets enough current
through the gate.

It switches back *off* only when the current through the load
drops to zero -- which happens once every 120th of a second with AC, and
never with DC -- unless you provide something else to interrupt the
current -- in which case you don't need this relay. :-)

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA current
source?

It is not picky. Notice the 8.5 to 14 mA range. So -- this
will probably work. You can tell by looking at the LED on the relay.
The only problem might be that the input will drop a full 3V at the
maximum current. This would leave you with 11 VDC to drop through the
resistor -- so 11 mA which should be enough. (Note that automobile
batteries, while nominally 12 VDC are usually around 14V or a bit higher
when being charged. So set your resistor a bit on the high side and
then see whether the LED comes on.

And really -- don't bother, because it can't switch your DC load
off anyway.

Good Luck,
DoN.

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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Grant,
Forget the SSR's.

Most Auto Parts Stores have 12V relays.
Used for lights and things.
Simple hookup, 1/4" spade lugs.
Take a look.
Dave




On Dec 16, 10:16 pm, Grant Erwin wrote:
There is an idle solenoid mounted on the side of the carburetor. When it is
energized, it pulls the governor arm to an idle position. When it is
de-energized, it releases the governor so it goes to the weld position.

This idle solenoid has a coil resistance of 5.6 ohms, so run from 12V will
draw about 2 amps DC.

This is what I want to control. The power I have available to switch on or
off to a relay coil is just 12VDC, basically a car battery.

This is a gas engine coupled to a welder, a relatively crude machine.

Azotic already posted that my relay won't work to switch a DC load. Now I'm
trying to find one that will, hopefully that won't break the bank.

Coil voltage: 12VDC
Load voltage: 12VDC

Thanks, Grant



Mechanical Magic wrote:
Grant,
SSR's draw very little control current. A 9-12V battery will last a
long time, and will fail "off", no resistor needed.

You don't say what you want to control, the generator must have some
control inputs, but, I'm stumped.

More info please.
Dave

On Dec 16, 8:56 pm, Grant Erwin wrote:

I'm still working on getting my idle control working on my old Miller
gas-powered welder. (Kohler 16hp motor.) The idle control module is dead,
no replacements are available anywhere I've found, but the idle solenoid
on the motor still works.

So I'm going to wire a switch velcroed to my stinger. I figure for now I'll
just run a pair of wires down each piece of welding lead, make the connections
with spade lugs, and run the wires to the input of a small relay which will
switch current on or off to the idle solenoid.

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter & Brumfield part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data sheet:http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting resistor in series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA current
source?

Grant

--
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Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
.. .
There is an idle solenoid mounted on the side of the carburetor. When it
is
energized, it pulls the governor arm to an idle position. When it is
de-energized, it releases the governor so it goes to the weld position.

This idle solenoid has a coil resistance of 5.6 ohms, so run from 12V will
draw about 2 amps DC.

This is what I want to control. The power I have available to switch on or
off to a relay coil is just 12VDC, basically a car battery.

This is a gas engine coupled to a welder, a relatively crude machine.

Azotic already posted that my relay won't work to switch a DC load. Now
I'm
trying to find one that will, hopefully that won't break the bank.

Coil voltage: 12VDC
Load voltage: 12VDC

Thanks, Grant


Most likley the control module is a simple voltage comparator which
energizes the solenoid
when you strike the stinger to the work and the voltage drops. They are
fairley simple to
make if your handy with electronics, about $10.00 worth of off the shelf
parts should do it.
If you don't want to build your own you can probobaly buy a ready built
voltage controlled
relay. You will have to measure the output voltage of the welder to buy one
with the correct
coil voltage. If you can find one that is SPDT that will be the easiest to
set up.

Try a google search for VOLTAGE CONTROLLED RELAY.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Dec 17, 2:56 pm, Grant Erwin wrote:
I'm still working on getting my idle control working on my old Miller
gas-powered welder. (Kohler 16hp motor.) The idle control module is dead,
no replacements are available anywhere I've found, but the idle solenoid
on the motor still works.

So I'm going to wire a switch velcroed to my stinger. I figure for now I'll
just run a pair of wires down each piece of welding lead, make the connections
with spade lugs, and run the wires to the input of a small relay which will
switch current on or off to the idle solenoid.

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter & Brumfield part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data sheet:http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting resistor in series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA current
source?

Grant

--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

KISS - use any relay with a 12v coil, salvage a headlight relay etc
from a junked car.....switching requirements are certainly not
onerous....

Andrew VK3BFA.

Grant Erwin wrote:

There is an idle solenoid mounted on the side of the carburetor. When it is
energized, it pulls the governor arm to an idle position. When it is
de-energized, it releases the governor so it goes to the weld position.

This idle solenoid has a coil resistance of 5.6 ohms, so run from 12V will
draw about 2 amps DC.

This is what I want to control. The power I have available to switch on or
off to a relay coil is just 12VDC, basically a car battery.

This is a gas engine coupled to a welder, a relatively crude machine.

Azotic already posted that my relay won't work to switch a DC load. Now I'm
trying to find one that will, hopefully that won't break the bank.

Coil voltage: 12VDC
Load voltage: 12VDC


How about a fog lights/driving lights relay? Available at about any
car parts place, and can be bought with a socket & harness.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

better yet, if the solenoid only draws 2 amps, just run zip cord directly to
the solenoid and have a switch on the welding head - no relay, no
nothing.....

znip-------

Coil voltage: 12VDC
Load voltage: 12VDC


How about a fog lights/driving lights relay? Available at about any
car parts place, and can be bought with a socket & harness.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida



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Grant,
I use a lot of these devices. They are wonderful! However an AC version will
turn on once, but never turn off on DC, until the power source is removed.
Internally there are a pair of SCRs back to back. If you use these against
an inductive load, you must use an RC filter across the output terminals and
I highly recommend using one rated for twice the use voltage, because back
EMF will kill'em dead. For your application, the same company makes SSRs for
DC in 5, 10 and 20 Amp versions. Again, for safety, use a diode in opposite
polarity across the output when using an inductive load for back EMF
reasons.
Steve


"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
.. .
I'm still working on getting my idle control working on my old Miller
gas-powered welder. (Kohler 16hp motor.) The idle control module is dead,
no replacements are available anywhere I've found, but the idle solenoid
on the motor still works.

So I'm going to wire a switch velcroed to my stinger. I figure for now
I'll
just run a pair of wires down each piece of welding lead, make the
connections
with spade lugs, and run the wires to the input of a small relay which
will
switch current on or off to the idle solenoid.

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter & Brumfield
part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data sheet:
http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at
between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting resistor in
series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA current
source?

Grant

--
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On 17 Dec 2007 05:18:06 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2007-12-17, Grant Erwin wrote:

[ ... ]

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter & Brumfield part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data sheet:
http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

O.K.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting resistor in series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

Why the current limiting resistor? The relays can accept any
voltage between 3 to 32 VDC and will draw no more than 14 mA from that --
without an external limiting resistor.

Oops -- never mind. Looking at the data sheet, this is
apparently a style intended for constant current input -- and you can
hook several of them in series to control them all with a single
current. (The voltage input ones, which are what I am more accustomed
to, would be hooked in parallel instead.

But your more serious problem is trying to switch DC as the load
current.

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

It can happily switch *on* the DC. The problem is that it is a
thyristor or triac controlled through an opto-isolator from the 3 to 32
VDC control signal.

A thyristor or triac switches on when it gets enough current
through the gate.

It switches back *off* only when the current through the load
drops to zero -- which happens once every 120th of a second with AC, and
never with DC -- unless you provide something else to interrupt the
current -- in which case you don't need this relay. :-)

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA current
source?

It is not picky. Notice the 8.5 to 14 mA range. So -- this
will probably work. You can tell by looking at the LED on the relay.
The only problem might be that the input will drop a full 3V at the
maximum current. This would leave you with 11 VDC to drop through the
resistor -- so 11 mA which should be enough. (Note that automobile
batteries, while nominally 12 VDC are usually around 14V or a bit higher
when being charged. So set your resistor a bit on the high side and
then see whether the LED comes on.

And really -- don't bother, because it can't switch your DC load
off anyway.

Good Luck,
DoN.

You need a solid state relay with a FET output stage. Crouset GF.
Or transistor output. Crouzet GT.

Crouzet is one of the Schneider group.

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Thanks to all, I found a nice DC-DC relay at NAPA for about nine bucks.
Now I can run real skinny wire up the welding lead, doesn't have to
carry 2 or 3 amps.

GWE

Grant Erwin wrote:

There is an idle solenoid mounted on the side of the carburetor. When it is
energized, it pulls the governor arm to an idle position. When it is
de-energized, it releases the governor so it goes to the weld position.

This idle solenoid has a coil resistance of 5.6 ohms, so run from 12V will
draw about 2 amps DC.

This is what I want to control. The power I have available to switch on or
off to a relay coil is just 12VDC, basically a car battery.

This is a gas engine coupled to a welder, a relatively crude machine.

Azotic already posted that my relay won't work to switch a DC load. Now I'm
trying to find one that will, hopefully that won't break the bank.

Coil voltage: 12VDC
Load voltage: 12VDC

Thanks, Grant

Mechanical Magic wrote:

Grant,
SSR's draw very little control current. A 9-12V battery will last a
long time, and will fail "off", no resistor needed.

You don't say what you want to control, the generator must have some
control inputs, but, I'm stumped.

More info please.
Dave


On Dec 16, 8:56 pm, Grant Erwin wrote:

I'm still working on getting my idle control working on my old Miller
gas-powered welder. (Kohler 16hp motor.) The idle control module is
dead,
no replacements are available anywhere I've found, but the idle solenoid
on the motor still works.

So I'm going to wire a switch velcroed to my stinger. I figure for
now I'll
just run a pair of wires down each piece of welding lead, make the
connections
with spade lugs, and run the wires to the input of a small relay
which will
switch current on or off to the idle solenoid.

I have several identical SSRTs in my junkbox. They are Potter &
Brumfield part
no. SSRT-120D10. Here is a data
sheet:http://www.tinyisland.com/images/tem..._SSRT_0303.pdf

The control terminals are expecting between 8.5mA and 14mA current at
between
3-32VDC. The output can carry 10 amps rms at 110VAC.

What I want to know is if I can use this in the following way:

run 12VDC to the control inputs, with 1k ohm current limiting
resistor in series
switch 12VDC 2-3 amps load current

I'm certain that there is another part better suited to my
requirement. My
question is whether I can make this one work.

If the output can handle 110VAC why couldn't it handle 12-14VDC?

Is a car battery through a 1kohm resistor sufficiently like a 12mA
current
source?

Grant

--
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On 2007-12-17, Grant Erwin wrote:
There is an idle solenoid mounted on the side of the carburetor. When it is
energized, it pulls the governor arm to an idle position. When it is
de-energized, it releases the governor so it goes to the weld position.

This idle solenoid has a coil resistance of 5.6 ohms, so run from 12V will
draw about 2 amps DC.

This is what I want to control. The power I have available to switch on or
off to a relay coil is just 12VDC, basically a car battery.

This is a gas engine coupled to a welder, a relatively crude machine.

Azotic already posted that my relay won't work to switch a DC load. Now I'm
trying to find one that will, hopefully that won't break the bank.

Coil voltage: 12VDC
Load voltage: 12VDC

Hmm ... does the generator part produce AC? If so, you could
run that through a transformer to produce 12VAC, through the SSR, and
into a bridge rectifier and capacitor so you would have AC to switch
with the SSR. If it only produces DC, your choices would be a real
relay with a coil (lots are available in 12V versions) or a circuit
using a transistor, and a diode across the solenoid's coil to suppress
the high voltage spikes produced when the circuit turns off.

I, personally, would go for the physical relay with a coil as
the simpler device. Good ones, properly sized for the load, will last
through more cycles than the rest of the mechanism of the welder will be
likely to survive -- even from new.

SSRs are a poor choice for this task, I think. They require
additional complication of the whole setup.

Good Luck,
DoN.

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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:42:23 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Grant,
I use a lot of these devices. They are wonderful! However an AC version will
turn on once, but never turn off on DC, until the power source is removed.


SNIPPED a TON

It has been noted often in this thread that SCR's and such will turn
on and then not turn off until the power is removed. That occurs by
both literally "removing" power, and by zero crossing in AC. They will
also "turn off" if commutated, which is effectively what the welder
would do if the relay was strapped across the welding lead outputs.

I still have not figured out what the OP wants to do.

Brian Lawson.